Public sector salary vs Private sector

[sunskyfan]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Yes, the double dipping is a racket. The Air Force is especially bad.

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Isn't DC a very expensive place to live because of the high number of VERY Well Paid Government employees - the high concentration forces Private Sector Companies to offer higher salaries as the Government Payroll creates localized Inflation.

Every time the Government gives Federal Employees/Govt Contractor a raise it feeds the local Inflation. Private Employees feel the pinch and force employers to give them a raise - repeat - repeat -repeat.....you end up with Washington DC being one of the Most expensive Metro Areas. Mix in lots of Union City, District, and County Employees and you ensure that DC remains very expensive until something breaks.

WDCrob
I am curious about how many Holidays and sick time? Everyone I know as lost 1-2 days of Holidays in the last two years - have you lost any Holidays in the last two years.

403B I assume - do matching contributions or only on Profitable years? ;-)

[Chomsky]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

I have 20 days of vacation annually, and have for several years. Other aspects of my employee compensation have been cut, or frozen, but not my vacation time.

[WDCRob]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

BK, just out of curiosity... what percentage of workers in the DC metro area do you think are Federal?

[WDCRob]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Without waiting for the answer, you're putting the cart before the horse BK.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...Salary/by_City

Salaries in DC are almost perfectly in line with other white-collar, educated cities.

Do some deeper digging on the metro area's workforce (more science and engineering jobs than any other city IIRC), and education levels (tops in the US) and you'll find that DC's a very competitive employment environment and you have to pay to get good workers no matter who you are.

The government does provide a huge buffer to the local economy, and attracts a ton of highly-educated talent in the science/tech and policy fields, but salaries are very much in line with what you'd expect to find among an educated, professional workforce.

[ddn3f]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

From where I am at. The older workers tell me that there used to be many more government workers, but because of attrition and retirements and just not hiring, the people who are left have to take on the additional responsibilities. That is also why they are forced to promote young people quickly to have a person perform the job. Having something in the position is better than not having anyone at all. The government is really looking to hire, or so they say. But finding qualified personnel, e.g. a person with an engineering degree, math, physics, etc type of degree is hard in the DC area. I know all the students that graduate from engineering school look at the private contractors first and never really consider the government at all. Is it common in other areas that those with the technical degrees are doing better and are still in demand?

[flintlock]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Yeah, but you guys are not the typical federal worker. Think clerks, janitors, cop types, more clerks, etc. There has to be a huge variance depending on the job in question, so the broad brush really wouldn't apply to all. My guess is the lower skilled Federal jobs pay a bigger premium over the private sector, with that difference dropping the higher up the ladder you go.

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector - BLSGOV

According to the Bureau of Labor statistics - http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm#earnings
"Federal employees receive both vacation and sick leave. They earn 13 days of vacation leave a year for the first 3 years, 20 days a year for the next 12 years, and 26 days a year after their 15th year of service. Workers also receive 13 days of sick leave a year, which may be accumulated indefinitely."

Accumulating 13 days of sick time per year! Does anyone know Private sector employees that can accumulate 13 days of sick days every year indefinitely???

- Federal Employee that makes $50,000 - makes approximately $25/per hour - 13 sick days equals $2600, after 4 years this benefit adds, $10,000, 8 years in this adds $20,000

- $100,000 Federal Employee this benefit after 4 years is worth $20,000, 8 years $40,000, 10 years its worth $50,000.

Can you imagine accruing this expense if you were a Private Employer - your employees would be come one of your biggest liabilities!

Most Private Sector Employees Max out at 4 weeks vacation - in the Federal Government you don't Max out until 26 days off -
I wonder why there is such low turn over in Federal Employees??????????

Public Unions have our Republic by the short hairs and they won't be kicking anything back until the "Funding Crisis hits" and the system breaks.

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector - BLSGOV

According to the Bureau of Labor statistics - http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm#earnings
"Federal employees receive both vacation and sick leave. They earn 13 days of vacation leave a year for the first 3 years, 20 days a year for the next 12 years, and 26 days a year after their 15th year of service. Workers also receive 13 days of sick leave a year, which may be accumulated indefinitely."

Accumulating 13 days of sick time per year! Does anyone know Private sector employees that can accumulate 13 days of sick days every year indefinitely???

- Federal Employee that makes $50,000 - makes approximately $25/per hour - 13 sick days equals $2600, after 4 years this benefit adds, $10,000, 8 years in this adds $20,000

- $100,000 Federal Employee this benefit after 4 years is worth $20,000, 8 years $40,000, 10 years its worth $50,000.

Can you imagine accruing this expense if you were a Private Employer - your employees would be come one of your biggest liabilities!

Most Private Sector Employees Max out at 4 weeks vacation - in the Federal Government you don't Max out until 26 days off -
I wonder why there is such low turn over in Federal Employees??????????

Public Unions have our Republic by the short hairs and they won't be kicking anything back until the "Funding Crisis hits" and the system breaks.

I agree -why have any employees at all -they are just a nuisance and we all know they don't do any work -those lazy bums. After all-all that money should shold go to the business owner and investor- who have accrued these fortunes by NOT having to be an employee. Man -those workers are stupid, selfish and never satisfied.

Thats why I outsourced my firm to Bolivia where I get graduate students to all the work for and they pay me for room and board. Now there a country that understands the need of true hard workers in this world -like me.

[fallout]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Most of the occupational slots of the type Mr. flintlock mentions (i.e. janitors, cafeteria employees, electricians, truck drivers, landscaping, building maintenance personnel, warehouse workers, road paving crews, etc.) here are all contracted out to external private firms/businesses. I.e. they are not strictly government positions. Thus, at least in my experience, the types of positions being staffed largely swings the balance in favor of "higher paying positions" within government, vis-a-vis private. Jet aircraft mechanics and engineers, government or otherwise, are always going to make more than janitorial and cafeteria staff.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...salaries_N.htm
Note also that the original article (above) compares FEDERAL employment vs. private industry. This leaves out all the much more moderate paying state and local government positions, such as teachers, cops, firemen (all notoriously poorly paid), DMV clerks, utility workers (i.e. municipal water) , etc., all of which would no doubt skew the results more towards the median. Federal employment is, by and large, white collar professional specialty and technical occupations, while private industry was once dominated by well-paid blue collar manufacturing jobs requiring only a high school diploma, now in terminal decline.
As for public unions, I'm not even eligible to join one. Although I do not supervise anyone, most professional positions (accountants, managers, engineers, etc.) are ineligible. Federal workers are also legally forbidden from striking (remember the air traffic controllers and Reagan?), and hence the various US federal public unions have little, if any, influence or teeth.

Finally, allow me to leave you with this article from 1987 that claims basically the same thing, that government pay increases are higher than those in private industry, but then goes on to point out the discrepancy is largely a function of a changing industry and economic face, i.e. the rise of service jobs, decline of manufacturing, etc.
http://www.questia.com/googleScholar...cId=5001680804

[MulaMan]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

more moderate paying state and local government positions, such as teachers, cops, firemen (all notoriously poorly paid), DMV clerks, utility workers (i.e. municipal water) , etc., all of which would no doubt skew the results more towards the median.

New Jersey cop makes $150,000 in OVERTIME for grand total of $260,000 per year. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...ials_fail.html

41 Milwaukee cops make over 100K with overtime where base pay is lke 40K. http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29477744.html

Fayetteville police officers took home $1.7 million in overtime
http://www.allbusiness.com/governmen...2154377-1.html

Contra Costa fireman earns $265,000 last year, $150,000 in overtime.
http://www.allbusiness.com/governmen...2461791-1.html

3,600 California prison guards made over 200K (mostly overtime) and will get 80K plus pensions: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/..._employee.html

And pensions are typically based on highest year earnings inclusive of overtime so they "rotate overtime" - a few guys get all the overtime for a few years to max out thier pensions, then the next guys take thier turn.

California public salaries are out of control, New York, and New Jersery, and I'm sure many other states as well.

I would love to be a "poorly paid" fireman, retire at 40 with a 80K per year pension!

[BK]

Re: FIREFIGHTER DATA - the FACTS about Federal FireFighter PAY

Can you provide Data to support your Claim about Firefighters being under paid??? I can provide Data that they may be over paid.....

Can you provide me the Names of 5 Firefighter in any BIG US City who left the job because of PAY?
A Fire Fighter working for the Federal Gov starts at $24,000 and maximum pay $104,000.
Fire Chiefs PAy $110,000 to $138,000 - None of these figures include Overtime and there is lots of that. Thanks to lots of Sick time.

2009 FEDERAL FIREFIGHTER PAY -
http://www.tff25.org/Docs/Fed.%20FF%...art%202009.xls - courtesy of the Firefighter's Union.

Another Data Point :Boston Massachusetts STARTING PAY and Benefits:
Boston firefighters begin with an annual salary of approximately $52,000. Other benefits include options for health insurance offered by BC/BS, Harvard Pilgrim and Tufts; 13 paid holidays, 15 sick days per year with sick leave buyback at retirement; Boston retirement System with the ability to retire as early as 55, paid vacation and opportunity to join the Boston Firefighter Credit Union.

[BK]

Re: More FireFighter Data - Davis California

Davis California FireFighter Pay-
Minimum Pay for FireFighter 1 is $5,794/PER MONTH
Maximum Pay for FireFighter 1 is $7,063.74
http://agency.governmentjobs.com/dav...&AgencyID=1226

A Fire Captain Maximum PAy is $8,900 per Month

Median Income for Davis-CA is approximately $42,000 per year.

[fallout]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

California is an extreme distortion, primarily due to years of untenable and way outside the median housing prices. Half a million plus for a 40 year old rancher an hour's drive out in the burbs, for instance. As a result, many areas such as San Francisco and Seattle have had difficulty in getting and keeping teachers, cops, and firefighters even at the salaries you mention. Even $100k a year isn't much when and where the cost of living is so high. Articles on the same-
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../BU5AV1K01.DTL
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/309914_affordable02.html
That's pure cherrypicking, sir.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, firefighters in Atlanta, Georgia (a major metro area with a more modest cost of living) apparently average only $40k.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...and%20Security
Locally, the rate for firefighters is even lower, $37k.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...and%20Security
For every Davis Co, CA I can see you a Cleveland, OH and raise you a Topeka, KS.

Federal firefighters? Where would there be federal firefighters? What city in the US is federal property?

Honestly, we are off on a tangent anyway, a moot point, as the subject in question was public sector salary vs private sector, and there are no private sector firemen. Apples to oranges.

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Fallout..

In you earlier message you (Fallout) stated:
"Note also that the original article (above) compares FEDERAL employment vs. private industry. This leaves out all the much more moderate paying state and local government positions, such as teachers, cops, firemen (all notoriously poorly paid),"

Your premise is wrong - your facts are out of date.

The salary you quote is the STARTING salary for Firemen in Atlanta Georgia - and I'd love to see what the true cost of a Fireman for Atlanta GA. Keep in mind the Budget for The City of Atlanta is a mess - and many of the other Cities that are offering better salaries for Fire Fighters will have huge budget problems in the next six months.

Yes, there are very few jobs for Private Fire Fighters. Yet, everyone claims we pay Government Employees on Par with Private Employees to attract talent.
Why are we over paying Firemen? There are No outside Firms Competiting for Fire Fighters and driving up salaries - why are we doing it? Fire Fighting is safer than it has ever been and Fire Fighters handle more Medical Emergencies than Fire situations?
I believe they deserve a Good and Decent wage - but, being able to make over $100,000 (and more) as a Federal Employee demonstrates how out of control parts of the Federal Wage system has gotten? Where is a Firefighter going to flee to if he wants more money - no where.

The Federal System is over compensating Fire Fighters - wouldn't you agree? Do you really thing Fire Fighters are the only job that is over paid?