Goodbye to US HealthCare?

[we_are_toast]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

There are NOT 50 Million American citizens without healthcare.
The number is bogus - pure propaganda.

Actually, I think you might not have read carefully what I wrote. I included those who've experienced large rate increases or who've been denied coverage by a company due to preexisting conditions. An ABC poll says 89% of Americans with insurance are satisfied with their insurance. That means 11% are not. That would be roughly 15 million. Add that to Chomsky's 36 million and you get approx. 50 million.

I may not completely agree with c1ue that health care is a right, but there is no way we can consider ourselves a civilized country while we let the less privileged suffer and die because we are too selfish to provide health care for all.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I may not completely agree with c1ue that health care is a right, but there is no way we can consider ourselves a civilized country while we let the less privileged suffer and die because we are too selfish to provide health care for all.

This sounds like justification for the usual (in my view) misunderstandings, in a couple of ways.

Some things, such as everyone living with adequate, healthy, food and water, with decent medical care available, with ample opportunities for a good education, good housing and a good job, and with decent security from criminals, are signs of a good, healthy society. Having an only modest discrepancy between the wealth of the richest and poorest is perhaps another suchsign.

However (1) that doesn't mean that some failure in these matters justifies directly imposing remedies (enforced wealth redistribution, enforced taxes for medical or other such ends, ...), nor in particular does it mean (2) that the Federal government (or worse still, a world government) should be the one imposing these "remedies."

If my gut is too fat, the President of the United States should not send in the Marines to remove the excess. Excess gut fat ain't good, but that remedy is worse.

[rogermexico]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Healthcare is not a right; and neither is clean water.

Jefferson wrote of "inalienable rights", confered by the Creator and not ours as a gift or grant from mankind. These rights were manifest throughout the created order - (example: man is free until subjugaded by other men) - they were "self-evident" as Jefferson put it. Alienable rights, those "rights" granted by men, could just as easily be taken away by men.

No one can assert a right against the created order. For example, the law of gravity prevents water from flowing uphill. Now man can build a pumping system to force water uphill, but it would be utterly ridiculous to say that "I have a right for water to flow uphill".

Good health is not a right. That is manifest throughout the created order for even thousand year old Redwood trees grow ill and die.
And healthcare is not a right - it is a claim that must be enforced against other individuals, whose property or income must be confiscated in order to provide this phony "right" to someone else.

The government must take rights away from one group (their property rights) in order to convey this so-called "right" of healthcare to another group.

The other way to say this is that the only real rights are the negative ones.

Everyone can have a right to be free from coercion, but not everyone can have a right to any claim on the resources of others, or even any finite resource at all.

There is therefore not even a right to food

The positive rights of the statists, when they are not impossible fantasy, are all theft or financed by theft.

Health is not healthcare. What we call healthcare is a massive industry that along with higher education, are the unrecognized parts of the FIRE economy.

The key element of the FIRE economy, along with fiat money and debt, is disintermediation - the separation of the financing of goods and services from their consumption. The bankers and enablers of credit and the sellers and managers of the goods and services benefit, until there is no more productive economy to ride on.

the financial edifice of disintermediated health care is in fact the sole cause of its unaffordablity.

[karim0028]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I love how we argue over whether healthcare is a right or a privilege and how much it costs and how to give someone "free" health care we must confiscate assets/money/wealth from some one else, yet, when it comes to the amount of money we spend on wars, FIRE or any other BS we spend TONS of money on, all the sudden no one is willing to picket for that...

If we stopped the 1 Trillion dollar "War on Terror" wouldn't we be able to support universal health care? If we didn't give away 3-5T to the banks (and double our national debt) at tax payer expense wouldn't we be able to afford universal health care?

Guess what, your wealth is going to be/already is confiscated, bc FIRE and the military complex got to the cow before healthcare And they are well on their way to milking it dry.

We got bent over a table by the banks last year and now everyone says we cant afford healthcare?? Where were these folks when the banks were getting free money at all of our expense?

Seriously, i find it mind numbing that this is the discussion we are having when money is essentially being thrown around for everything that isn't even as REMOTELY useful as actual healthcare or education.....

Am i the only one who thinks that tax payer money should actually go to benefit the tax payer instead of business complexes?

I'm all for small govt... Stop wars, stop bailing out failed business, stop the ever encroaching govt, stop turning us into a virtual police state, but for my tax payer money, i want clean water, safe streets and if i fall by the side of the road, i shouldn't have to beg for healthcare....

I agree health care is not a right, but for the amount of money being funneled into Washington and being spent hand over fist, i feel i should get something for my money, aside from a sore ass....

[Chomsky]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

With the Republicans winning Virginia and NJ tonight don't expect progress on Healthcare. Dollar boost as a $1.2 Trillion shelved until 2010?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091104/...s_election_rdp

"His signature issue of health care reform (Obama) was dealt a blow hours before polls closed when Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid signaled that Congress may not complete health care legislation this year, missing Obama's deadline and pushing debate into a congressional election year.

Uh, the Democrats GAINED two seats in Congress yesterday, both of them going to committed "public option" supporters. Though that won't necessarily stop the Dems from scuttling their own initiative through incompetence.

[rogermexico]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I love how we argue over whether healthcare is a right or a privilege and how much it costs and how to give someone "free" health care we must confiscate assets/money/wealth from some one else, yet, when it comes to the amount of money we spend on wars, FIRE or any other BS we spend TONS of money on, all the sudden no one is willing to picket for that...

If we stopped the 1 Trillion dollar "War on Terror" wouldn't we be able to support universal health care? If we didn't give away 3-5T to the banks (and double our national debt) at tax payer expense wouldn't we be able to afford universal health care?

Guess what, your wealth is going to be/already is confiscated, bc FIRE and the military complex got to the cow before healthcare And they are well on their way to milking it dry.

We got bent over a table by the banks last year and now everyone says we cant afford healthcare?? Where were these folks when the banks were getting free money at all of our expense?

Seriously, i find it mind numbing that this is the discussion we are having when money is essentially being thrown around for everything that isn't even as REMOTELY useful as actual healthcare or education.....

Am i the only one who thinks that tax payer money should actually go to benefit the tax payer instead of business complexes?

I'm all for small govt... Stop wars, stop bailing out failed business, stop the ever encroaching govt, stop turning us into a virtual police state, but for my tax payer money, i want clean water, safe streets and if i fall by the side of the road, i shouldn't have to beg for healthcare....

I agree health care is not a right, but for the amount of money being funneled into Washington and being spent hand over fist, i feel i should get something for my money, aside from a sore ass....

Just to be nice and sparkling clear, I no more favor the government stealing my money to support a bogus empire than to pay for your grandma's new knee.

Even if your grandma is a nice person : )

[karim0028]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Just to be nice and sparkling clear, I no more favor the government stealing my money to support a bogus empire than to pay for your grandma's new knee.

Even if your grandma is a nice person : )

Again, please don't misunderstand me.... I want small govt, but i am not an idealist, i am a realist, our money gets (and will continue to be ) doled out to special interests and none gets left over that tax payers can really make use of, and can see actual benefit from.

Thats where i'm coming from. I fume when i see money spent on wars and banks and then when it comes to something beneficial suddenly everyone begins to pay attention and object.

If we were to say NO ONE gets money or favors from govt, then i would be a-okay with no public health care. Till then, i think its hypocritical and against our self interest not to ask to be on the dole.... Its like the sheep asking to be led to the slaughter......

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Seriously, i find it mind numbing that this is the discussion we are having when money is essentially being thrown around for everything that isn't even as REMOTELY useful as actual healthcare or education.....

Just because the Federal government spends money in wrong ways doesn't mean that it should instead spend that money for health or education. Those are not the proper job of the Federal government! Either way, such large Federal budgets concentrate too much power in one place.

[GRG55]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Just to be nice and sparkling clear, I no more favor the government stealing my money to support a bogus empire than to pay for your grandma's new knee.

Even if your grandma is a nice person : )

How about his kid's lukemia treatment? Assume his kid is nice person...

[c1ue]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

The government must take rights away from one group (their property rights) in order to convey this so-called "right" of healthcare to another group.

While I certainly don't disagree with this statement, on the other hand the execution of government on the principles you espouse leads to all kinds of terrible outcomes.

For example: education

As crappy as public education may or may not be, it is far better than having an entire nation of illiterate subsistence farmers.

As EJ has alluded to - certainly one may argue that forcing the public to both partake of and finance primary school education is a usurpation of rights. But the outcome is one which both benefits the individuals and the society in question.

I fail to see why health care must be different - especially when almost every single other first world nation (and many/most 2nd world) has a clearly functional system for providing health care.

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky experiment we're talking about. It has worked and seems to continue to be working.

Thus while I understand the basis and background behind your not so unusual American Libertarian stance, I personally reject it as both being unrealistic and not beneficial for this nation as a whole.

Your statement also implies that the current system is fine.

But by any means imaginable, the current system is NOT fine.

Costs are escalating far beyond inflation - and the US already spends more than twice as much as the nearest other nation.

At least 10% of the US population does not have reliable access to health care - probably at least double that for people who do not have enough health care even by 2nd world rudimentary standards.

Even the ones who have good health insurance now:

Loss of job means loss of health care.

Retirement means loss of health care. (before Medicare Age of 65, of course)

Divorce means loss of health care.

Hell, death of working parent means loss of health care.

This doesn't look like a well working machine to me.

[karim0028]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

While I certainly don't disagree with this statement, on the other hand the execution of government on the principles you espouse leads to all kinds of terrible outcomes.

For example: education

As crappy as public education may or may not be, it is far better than having an entire nation of illiterate subsistence farmers.

As EJ has alluded to - certainly one may argue that forcing the public to both partake of and finance primary school education is a usurpation of rights. But the outcome is one which both benefits the individuals and the society in question.

I fail to see why health care must be different - especially when almost every single other first world nation (and many/most 2nd world) has a clearly functional system for providing health care.

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky experiment we're talking about. It has worked and seems to continue to be working.

Thus while I understand the basis and background behind your not so unusual American Libertarian stance, I personally reject it as both being unrealistic and not beneficial for this nation as a whole.

Your statement also implies that the current system is fine.

But by any means imaginable, the current system is NOT fine.

Costs are escalating far beyond inflation - and the US already spends more than twice as much as the nearest other nation.

At least 10% of the US population does not have reliable access to health care - probably at least double that for people who do not have enough health care even by 2nd world rudimentary standards.

Even the ones who have good health insurance now:

Loss of job means loss of health care.

Retirement means loss of health care. (before Medicare Age of 65, of course)

Divorce means loss of health care.

Hell, death of working parent means loss of health care.

This doesn't look like a well working machine to me.

Yup, its all fine, as long as we pay through the nose for wars, military and banks but when it comes to basic health care, suddenly everyone realizes we're too broke to pay for it

[lurker]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

While I certainly don't disagree with this statement, on the other hand the execution of government on the principles you espouse leads to all kinds of terrible outcomes.

For example: education

As crappy as public education may or may not be, it is far better than having an entire nation of illiterate subsistence farmers.

As EJ has alluded to - certainly one may argue that forcing the public to both partake of and finance primary school education is a usurpation of rights. But the outcome is one which both benefits the individuals and the society in question.

I fail to see why health care must be different - especially when almost every single other first world nation (and many/most 2nd world) has a clearly functional system for providing health care.

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky experiment we're talking about. It has worked and seems to continue to be working.

Thus while I understand the basis and background behind your not so unusual American Libertarian stance, I personally reject it as both being unrealistic and not beneficial for this nation as a whole.

Your statement also implies that the current system is fine.

But by any means imaginable, the current system is NOT fine.

Costs are escalating far beyond inflation - and the US already spends more than twice as much as the nearest other nation.

At least 10% of the US population does not have reliable access to health care - probably at least double that for people who do not have enough health care even by 2nd world rudimentary standards.

Even the ones who have good health insurance now:

Loss of job means loss of health care.

Retirement means loss of health care. (before Medicare Age of 65, of course)

Divorce means loss of health care.

Hell, death of working parent means loss of health care.

This doesn't look like a well working machine to me.

Very well said. If there is no such thing as "common good" (which it sometimes seems that libertarians think there is not) then, really, what is the point ? We should simply abandon our quaint "morals" and go back to pure Darwinian "might makes right".

However, in one sense I agree with Raz. The US has such a spectacularly disfunctional federal government that it could be argued anything of importance should really be left to the states. At least people can then vote with their feet.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

As crappy as public education may or may not be, it is far better than having an entire nation of illiterate subsistence farmers.

We didn't have any significant Federal involvement in education when I was young. No U.S. Dept of Education existed back then. The schools I went to were better than the ones my son went to.

The distinction between what "we" ought to do as a society and what "they" ought to do as the Federal government seems to be an anachronism, laying in the back of my sock drawer with my grandfather's gold watch and my dusty copy of the Constitution.



"We" as a society now usually means the Federal government of the United States. Local governments, private individuals, charities, businesses, and churches are left with the table scraps. They are subordinated by law, tax, propaganda (news media) and regulation to the Federal government.

All arguments degenerate to should "we" (the Feds) do or not do something to alleviate some perceived malady. All who answer no (even if just to say someother body should do it) are labeled cruel, heartless, stupid bastards.

It's frustrating.

[metalman]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

only rich kids should be educated. poor kids should remain uneducated.

that is as it should be.

i take that back...

poor kids should be meat, used as food and eaten by the dogs and children of the rich.

that is the natural course of things.

[Raz]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

How about his kid's lukemia treatment? Assume his kid is nice person...

That's a very loaded question, GRG55.
Let's try another one.

How about paying for his daughter's abortion? After all, the neonatal tests show "it" to be Down's Syndrome, and his daughter is a nice person. We don't know how nice "it" might or might not turn out to be, but we know that "it" will definitely be one hell of an inconvenience.