The Abyss

[Master Shake]

Re: The Abyss

It takes money to relocate, and most employers (outside of the highly skilled industries) are looking for local applicants only. These folks are in their 40s and 50s; even if it were easy to liquidate everything (which probably isn't much in monetary terms), there is no sure bet that they would find jobs elsewhere.

So, they should sell everything they own and move to where the jobs are (where is that, exactly?), where the cost of living is likely higher (thus raising their debt burden), then start applying for jobs that may or may not be there?

Ever read The Grapes of Wrath?

Well, maybe they should just stay where they are, where there are no jobs and no prospects, and expect the government to provide for them. That's what made this country great, right?

Believe me, I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the people who are in such dire straits. But at some point, it's on them.

Karen Inbody has just about three weeks to figure out Plan B.
The 58-year-old divorcee has been getting by on unemployment compensation since her layoff in early 2008, but she’s nearly reached the end of her benefits.

Wrong. She's had at least a year and a half to figure out Plan B. Plus, prior to getting laid off, she should have been putting away money for such a contingency. While getting unemployment, she should have set her sights beyond Elkhart.

[MarkL]

Re: The Abyss

It takes money to relocate, and most employers (outside of the highly skilled industries) are looking for local applicants only. These folks are in their 40s and 50s; even if it were easy to liquidate everything (which probably isn't much in monetary terms), there is no sure bet that they would find jobs elsewhere.

So, they should sell everything they own and move to where the jobs are (where is that, exactly?), where the cost of living is likely higher (thus raising their debt burden), then start applying for jobs that may or may not be there? Ever read The Grapes of Wrath?

In today's world of the internet and virtual phone systems it's quite easy to pose as being anywhere in the USA... even the world. Let's say you wanted to be employed in Silicon Valley... $4.00 a month for a virtual phone number and you're done. Most woman and lots of men don't put addresses on resumes these days, or if they do it's just a city. Many people have friends or relatives who would be happy to let them use their address in a city they want to move to. Nobody can tell where a Yahoo email address is from.

There are ways around these obstacles for those that push themselves. And... well, those are the ones that are employed or going to be so soon, eh? So whose left?

[Master Shake]

Re: The Abyss

By definition your libertarian attitude is cold hearted. There is no room in the philosophy for actually helping people; only room for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and "work harder".

Unfortunately, many people have no bootstraps.

How the hell is someone supposed to get up and move somewhere else if they are unemployed and have family dependent upon them? Moving costs money; we're talking here about people who are scraping by for gas money just to get around in town (though my first thought was, they should be riding a bike!).

The problem with the extreme libertarian philosophy is that it assumes hard work == productivity == reward. Period.

Fundamentalist libertarianism doesn't factor in the inconvenient fact that life often doesn't work in such a linear fashion. That people can work hard and smartly, and still end up in a lousy situation from which there is little apparent exit. That people sometimes need help. That being in trouble <> ("is not equal to") moral failure.

It is a very idealistic, Darwinian philosophy that ignores what separates us from the apes in the first place: our ability to form complex societies where we help and support one another to achieve greater common good.

The people mentioned in this article have not been supported? They've been getting unemplyment compensation for, in most cases, a year and a half. There is help in the form of food stamps, job searches, and medical care. And that just from the government. There are also churches/synagogues/etc and non-profits providing help (They should be the ones providing the most help, imo. Maybe groups like the Soros Foundation and The Tides Foundation should be dispursing their monies directly to the people who need help?)

So, don't set up your "Darwinian" straw man. Every one needs help (from SOCIETY not necessarily the government) when they're down. These people have been getting all kinds of help.

How the hell is someone supposed to get up and move somewhere else if they are unemployed and have family dependent upon them?

People do it all the time. Are you so helpless and isolated that you wouldn't be able to take provide for yourself and your family in bad times? You don't have friends, family, or neighbors you can rely on? No "rainy day" savings?

[mmr]

Re: The Abyss

But where in this country is this promised land where an unskilled worker would have a decent likelihood of finding a new job? It's so bad right now that people are actually moving back to places like upstate NY because it's actually slightly better here right now than in, for example, former "growth" states like North Carolina.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm


Table A. States with unemployment rates significantly differ-
ent from that of the U.S., July 2009, seasonally adjusted
--------------------------------------------------------------
State | Rate (p)
--------------------------------------------------------------
United States (1) ...................| 9.4
|
Alaska ..............................| 8.3
Arkansas ............................| 7.4
California ..........................| 11.9
Colorado ............................| 7.8
Connecticut .........................| 7.8
Delaware ............................| 8.2
District of Columbia ................| 10.6
Florida .............................| 10.7
Georgia .............................| 10.3
Hawaii ..............................| 7.0
|
Illinois ............................| 10.4
Indiana .............................| 10.6
Iowa ................................| 6.5
Kansas ..............................| 7.4
Kentucky ............................| 11.0
Louisiana ...........................| 7.4
Maine ...............................| 8.4
Maryland ............................| 7.3
Michigan ............................| 15.0
Minnesota ...........................| 8.1
|
Montana .............................| 6.7
Nebraska ............................| 4.9
Nevada ..............................| 12.5
New Hampshire .......................| 6.8
New Mexico ..........................| 7.0
New York ............................| 8.6
North Carolina ......................| 11.0
North Dakota ........................| 4.2
Ohio ................................| 11.2
Oklahoma ............................| 6.5
|
Oregon ..............................| 11.9
Pennsylvania ........................| 8.5
Rhode Island ........................| 12.7
South Carolina ......................| 11.8
South Dakota ........................| 4.9
Tennessee ...........................| 10.7
Texas ...............................| 7.9
Utah ................................| 6.0
Vermont .............................| 6.8
Virginia ............................| 6.9
Wyoming .............................| 6.5

[Master Shake]

Re: The Abyss

But where in this country is this promised land where an unskilled worker would have a decent likelihood of finding a new job? It's so bad right now that people are actually moving back to places like upstate NY because it's actually slightly better here right now than in, for example, former "growth" states like North Carolina.

Then move to upstate New York, although the Dakotas would probably be a better bet.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Abyss

North Dakota at 4.2% Imagine that. I hear it gets cold there though.

[bcassill]

Re: The Abyss

The "move where the jobs are" is a strong argument. However, I remember watching a show about the Dust Bowl in the 1930's in Oklahoma. People there were told to move to California because there were jobs to be had picking produce. Problem was that when those that did pick up and move with whatever they could throw in the car, the jobs didn't exist. Seems everyone else in the country had heard the same story. There were 2 or 3 applicants for every job there. Right now there about 5 unemployed persons for every job, so I'm not sure that the "grass is greener" philosophy will actually work this time around. Not with the true unemployment rate hovering somewhere between 17% and 20%+. And if you are unskilled labor, you're basically screwed since these are the folks most likely to be unemployed.

[World Traveler]

Re: The Abyss

There was a lead story on local news tonight in Houston - overnight, all the copper had been stripped out of a strip mall. It appeared to be an oganized gang who knew what they were doing. Only copper was taken...

[metalman]

Re: The Abyss

who could have known?

[Verrocchio]

Re: The Abyss

In today's world of the internet and virtual phone systems it's quite easy to pose as being anywhere in the USA... even the world. Let's say you wanted to be employed in Silicon Valley... $4.00 a month for a virtual phone number and you're done. Most woman and lots of men don't put addresses on resumes these days, or if they do it's just a city. Many people have friends or relatives who would be happy to let them use their address in a city they want to move to. Nobody can tell where a Yahoo email address is from.

There are ways around these obstacles for those that push themselves. And... well, those are the ones that are employed or going to be so soon, eh? So whose left?

Yes, there will be a Darwinian effect, with those who have clever ideas like those above having a better chance of earning a living. Unfortunately, most unskilled labor doesn't know about them. The main point for me isn't to show how some of us are smarter than the unemployed.

What is the point, then? Among the 15 to 20% unemployed are some people who are becoming increasingly desperate and angry -- and some people whose circumstances call forth compassion from us. The former is an emerging social trend that the survivalists among us would do well to monitor, and the latter? Our responses will run the gamut, from ignoring their plight, criticizing them for their shortsightedness, to sharing what we have.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Abyss

Yes, there will be a Darwinian effect, with those who have clever ideas like those above having a better chance of earning a living. Unfortunately, most unskilled labor doesn't know about them. The main point for me isn't to show how some of us are smarter than the unemployed.

What is the point, then? Among the 15 to 20% unemployed are some people who are becoming increasingly desperate and angry -- and some people whose circumstances call forth compassion from us. The former is an emerging social trend that the survivalists among us would do well to monitor, and the latter? Our responses will run the gamut, from ignoring their plight, criticizing them for their shortsightedness, to sharing what we have.

THE FOURTEENTH BIRD SPEAKS

Another bird said to the Hoopoe: ‘O you who are clear seeing! This that you propose is a worthy aspiration. Though I appear to be weak, in reality I have a noble ardor: though I have little strength, I have a lofty ambition.”

The Hoopoe replied: ‘ If you have but a little of this noble ambition, it will triumph even over the sun. Aspiration is the wings and feathers of the bird of the soul.’



A Sufi woke one night and said to himself : ‘ It seems to me that the world is like a chest in which we are put and the lid shut down, and we give ourselves up to foolishness, when death lifts the lid, he who has acquired wings, soars away to eternity, but he who has not, stays in the chest a prey to a thousand tribulations. Make sure then that the bird of ambition acquires wings of aspiration, and give to your heart and reason the ecstasy of the soul. Before the lid of the chest is opened become a bird of the Spirit, ready to spread your wings.’

The Conference of the Birds


FARID-UD- DIN ATTAR

[MarkL]

Re: The Abyss

Our responses will run the gamut, from ignoring their plight, criticizing them for their shortsightedness, to sharing what we have.

Those that share what they have are giving those in question a fish. This is a nice sentiment... but it feeds for a day. This is the current position of our government... the President of whom, I helped elect. But due to the inefficiencies of government, for every person they give a fish, they tax 100 hurting them all, and drive two more of those 100 into also needing a fish.

Others will teach what they know, which is far better than giving a fish. These skills will provide the ability to survive and even excel in this Web 2.0 world, this bankster world where the wolves feed on the sheeple, this world where those who are motivated with the ability to learn and desire to achieve will continue the American dream while the unmotivated get angry. These skills will carry them far farther than the forced theft from others who need... or from who might employ those that need if the percentage of theft wasn't so high.



And what is it that is best taught?

1. How to read. (Although with Youtube even this is almost unnecessary).
2. That there is free access to the internet at the public library .
3. That the internet now has videos and instructions on how to do anything published for free. And that Google can find it.
4. The motivation and vision to accomplish their dreams.

Most of those unemployed know everything on the list, except #4. The hard one to teach after the age of 12 is motivation. Nevertheless it can be taught... and it's one of the greatest way to be a philanthropist in America.

Sometimes feeding somebody for a day is appropriate and helps them, but when systematized by our government in our inappropriately over-rich society, it makes many dependent and enables them to continue their slothful and unimaginative ways the credit bubble initiated. Sometimes sleeping on a bench, a touch of hunger and scrabbling for change (all of which both I and my father have experienced) can teach someone the value and importance of a dollar.

Understanding the value of a dollar is what will break the millions of our citizens free from the habits of easy credit, THIS is what will separate the future successful from those that remain forever mired in the sticky traps of our formerly credit rich society. This lesson repeated millions of times is what is most necessary for America to return to true productivity.

Those who lived through the Great Depression never forgot this lesson. The cycles of history will now reteach us again.

The faster we learn it, the faster we return to TRUE prosperity.

[flintlock]

Re: The Abyss

1. That there is free access to the internet at the public library .
2. That the internet now has videos and instructions on how to do anything published for free. And that Google can find it.

I agree this is one of the best things you could teach an unskilled worker in bad financial shape. I try my best to do so but some just look at me as if I am crazy. What do you do with someone who doesn't want to join the 21st century?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: The Abyss

I agree this is one of the best things you could teach an unskilled worker in bad financial shape. I try my best to do so but some just look at me as if I am crazy. What do you do with someone who doesn't want to join the 21st century?

The same problem existed in prior generations. Most people in the Great Depression likely only stopped by the free public library (thanks perhaps to Andrew Carnegie) if there was a "Help Wanted" sign posted outside.

[fliped42]

Re: The Abyss

I just looked at base metal prices, and I got a reality shock:

nickel closing-in toward $20,000 per tonne;
copper well over $6,000 per tonne, on the way to maybe $7,000 per tonne next;
zinc nearing $2,000 per tonne.

I can see the future in California and maybe elsewhere in America: The drug gangs might next expand out of drug-trafficing and move toward the industry of stripping wiring, pipes, metal sinks, etc. out of vacant and unsold homes.

While one might be thinking about what an old penny or nickel could be instrinsically worth in metal, the old drug gangs might be thinking about what a neighbourhood of vacant/unsold houses could be intrinsically worth. And then there are light-poles outside and bridge guard-rails, buried copper pipes to serve the neighbourhood; the opportunities are endless!

This happens all the time already. But it is not the drug gangs that do the stripping it is the users. They go in and take any peice of metal. Even if it is hooked up to electiricity. They then go to the scrap yard and get cash. They then go and buy the drugs from the gangs. The gangs do not have to do the high risk, high labor low margin work. The addicts do it for them and they get the money anyway.