New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

[touchring]

North Korean defector Kim Hyuck.

"It is not an easy place," he said of the camps. "Centers for men and women are separate. But even [the] women's place is not comfortable at all. . . . When I was in the center, roughly 600-700 out of a total 1,500 died."

Kim, 28, who now studies math at a South Korean university, said that escape from the camps is nearly impossible.

"If someone is missing, the rest of us would be put in jail. Nobody can go out. No one can work. If a missing person gets caught, without question they will be shot dead," he said.

"Nobody was successful in escaping. Three tried when I was there, but they all got caught as they couldn't cross the border into China. I was among 23 people put into the center -- and 21 of them died there."

Kim and Hawk described long days at the camps that began before dawn. Workers are fed "watery corn gruel" for breakfast and then sent off to their assignments, Hawk said.

To become sick, Kim said, is often to die.

Most people died from malnutrition and related diseases such as diarrhea and fever, he said. "There is no medication. Officers gave us a powder made of pine tree leaves. That's what they gave us for every disease. It was just to give some sort of comfort."

A harsher form of death was being sent to the solitary cell.

"If someone gets sent into that cell, they wouldn't endure even a week," Kim said. It's hard to sit there or stand there. Officers don't beat them in the solitary cell, because they are going to die anyway just by being left there."

The political prisoners fare worst of all, he said.

"They're taken care of separately by the spy agency of North Korea," he said. "They are beaten so harshly. There is no responsibility for their death."

Hawk said torture and punishment was often used as a tool to maintain control. "People are punished for violating labor camp regulations," he said. The most common violation is trying to steal food of one sort or another.

"If people eat food that's supposed to be for livestock, it's a violation. Failing to meet your work production quota is another violation. Punishment is severe beatings and forms of torture."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...5.story?page=2

[ASH]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

New crisis?

Old news, and there's really no crisis-fomenting action that the US can take on this.

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Ash,

Old news to people that made themselves aware of N Korea policies. Most Americans, even educated ones, have no idea.

Sadly, you are correct that there is very little that can be done. The administration is considering placing N Korea back on the naughty list. That's about it.

[makimanos]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Long live the Chinese, their patrons.

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Long live the Chinese, their patrons.

Yes, why is that exactly?

It seems that events in NK are every bit as heinous as occurred in China during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. The Chinese have passed that phase, by and large, but they still tolerate it, perhaps even encourage it in NK.

Is Chinese support of the NK a cold war relic? A cultural artifact from the past? A way for the Chinese to keep the west distracted through a surrogate? All of the above? None of the above?

[c1ue]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Greg,

You're thinking too hard.

North Korea is a fantastic way to distract and disturb two of China's larger historical competitors: Korea and Japan.

Why not expend a tiny amount of effort to allow this stumbling block to exist?

[ASH]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

North Korea is a fantastic way to distract and disturb two of China's larger historical competitors: Korea and Japan.

Why not expend a tiny amount of effort to allow this stumbling block to exist?

... because when North Korea acts unruly, it makes Japan and South Korea think maybe they need their own nuclear deterrents, it is a factor that keeps those two countries in the American sphere of influence, and it makes it harder to dislodge American military power from the Chinese coastline.

I think the Chinese definitely want a buffer state there, but I think they want a less spicy -- more predictable and controllable -- buffer state.

China isn't exactly at the vanguard of freedom and human rights, and they are at the vanguard of asking solicitous do-gooders to butt-out on the basis of national sovereignty, so I assume the Chinese government doesn't care too much about North Korea's method of government, even if the Chinese themselves employ a lighter touch these days. My read is that they are more apt to apply pressure when North Korea goes off script in a way likely to induce Japan and South Korea to engage in a military buildup.

[c1ue]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

... because when North Korea acts unruly, it makes Japan and South Korea think maybe they need their own nuclear deterrents, it is a factor that keeps those two countries in the American sphere of influence, and it makes it harder to dislodge American military power from the Chinese coastline.

ASH,

Sorry, but North Korea even as a rogue state is nothing compared to China itself in terms of threats to other Asian nations.

But to address your points in more detail:

Japan has made a long term commitment to the US : economically, societally, militarily. It is foolish to even consider Japan being anything else for decades. In this light North Korea is a fantastic way to keep the Japanese distracted - in fact China looks good in relation to Wack Kim.

As for South Korea - your argument would make a little more sense except that the most likely path should the Dear/Great Leaders disappear is the unification of Korea. And the most likely path of the eventual reunified state is under the aegis of the South - which has the money.

At which point China winds up with a relatively large competing population and economy at its doorstep.

The reunification of Germany is a very nice example.

As for dislodging American power from its doorstep - seriously - are you REALLY trying to say that the disappearance of the North Korean regime would mean the closure of American military bases in Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan?

Really?

[ASH]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

ASH,

Sorry, but North Korea even as a rogue state is nothing compared to China itself in terms of threats to other Asian nations.

Are you trying to have it both ways? North Korea distracts other Asian nations from China, but at the same time, the threat from North Korea is nothing as compared to the threat from China so I can't argue that North Korea's neighbors will respond to the "distraction"?

I think North Korea and China present their neighbors with very different types of threat (and I imagine you think this, too). North Korea isn't going to dominate its neighbors culturally or economically, and it hasn't the economic capacity to build up a preponderance of military force -- but it acts erratically, and plays with dangerous toys. China has the gathering power to be feared on a more fundamental level in the long term, but it moves slowly, and speaks in soothing terms. If the type of threat is different, then the nature of the response will be different -- Asian countries are more likely to arm themselves urgently in response to an erratic loony brandishing nuclear arms than a quiet behemoth speaking of a "peaceful rise" and presenting lucrative opportunities for commerce. But if North Korea's neighbors arm themselves with nuclear weapons, they will be better able to resist eventual Chinese regional hegemony. And if China is seen as the irresponsible protector of the local nutcase, that will undermine China's aspiration to lead the region politically. That is why a too-noisy North Korea works against China's long-term strategic interest.

Japan has made a long term commitment to the US : economically, societally, militarily. It is foolish to even consider Japan being anything else for decades. In this light North Korea is a fantastic way to keep the Japanese distracted - in fact China looks good in relation to Wack Kim.

And yet, international relations play out over decades, don't they? China won't dominate the Western Pacific overnight, but it is foolish to even consider that breaking America's hegemony isn't their longterm goal.

As for South Korea - your argument would make a little more sense except that the most likely path should the Dear/Great Leaders disappear is the unification of Korea. And the most likely path of the eventual reunified state is under the aegis of the South - which has the money.

At which point China winds up with a relatively large competing population and economy at its doorstep.

True -- avoiding the uncertainty that collapse of North Korea would entail is the main reason China has supported North Korea. In fact, I think this has much more to do with it than any of the putative "distraction" value that you posit. But there is a limit, and I think that limit is if North Korea's antics induce Japan and South Korea to go nuclear.

As for dislodging American power from its doorstep - seriously - are you REALLY trying to say that the disappearance of the North Korean regime would mean the closure of American military bases in Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan?

Really?

Steps in a process. How much do you want to bet that when the American government runs out of money, it closes some bases. And how much do you want to bet that selection of the bases to be closed will be prioritized based upon strategic impact? China wants to replace us as the regional hegemon. They don't want to do it by fighting a war. Their purpose is best served if we have fewer compelling reasons to be there.

[touchring]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

C1ue I think you might have missed out the long term military threat posed by Japan, which for now is only temporarily suppressed by the American military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–1598)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan-K...exation_Treaty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

C1ue I think you might have missed out the long term military threat posed by Japan, which for now is only temporarily suppressed by the American military.

Being the only nation to be honored to be on the receiving of atomic bombs dropped in anger seems to have rendered the Japanese less warlike, at least for so long as any Japanese citizen alive in 1945 still holds a position of power.

Indeed, it seems (he said hopefully) that agression in general between nations has changed in form since World War II. There are still terribly bloody wars involving smaller or tyrannical nations, between themselves or with a major nation if the other majors at least tacitly consent, but the majors resort to other means, avoiding uninhibited general warfare with each other. This is a good thing; most of us would be dead already otherwise.

[touchring]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Being the only nation to be honored to be on the receiving of atomic bombs dropped in anger seems to have rendered the Japanese less warlike, at least for so long as any Japanese citizen alive in 1945 still holds a position of power.

Indeed, it seems (he said hopefully) that agression in general between nations has changed in form since World War II. There are still terribly bloody wars involving smaller or tyrannical nations, between themselves or with a major nation if the other majors at least tacitly consent, but the majors resort to other means, avoiding uninhibited general warfare with each other. This is a good thing; most of us would be dead already otherwise.

I've read that the reason why Japan surrendered was not because of the atomic bombs, but the Soviet Union having taken over Manchuria and could invade mainland Japan anytime. The Japanese felt it was better to surrender to the Americans before that happens.

I believe that aggression has changed since WWII because the American, like the British previously, are a profit oriented mercantilistic society. Total war is always bad for business. Targeted wars are only necessary so as to secure markets and trade routes.

As for Japan, the fundamental situation has not changed very much since WWII. A male dominated somewhat chauvinistic society with almost the same political and monarchy system as the WWII generation, an industrialized economy producing electric fans/airconditioning instead of zero fighters formerly, a homogeneous and regimented society that cannot tolerate gaijins. Misguided politics is all it takes to transform it into a fearless military machine once again.

[ASH]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

Misguided politics is all it takes to transform it into a fearless military machine once again.

There are the issues of demographic decline, a poor endowment of natural resources, and their naval position to consider. They are short on young people to fight wars and man the wartime economy. They must rely upon seaborne trade to bring in the raw materials to fuel their economy, and unlike the pre-WWII era, they have not the naval power required to secure those resources and their transport. I think a very substantial naval buildup would have to precede a return to expansive militarism, and I doubt that they could achieve the necessary margin of superiority because China could match the buildup. To me, they seem a demoralized nation in decline, skeptical of their leaders, and dispirited; not the material for a resurgence of imperialism.

[metalman]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

To me, they seem a demoralized nation in decline, skeptical of their leaders, and dispirited; not the material for a resurgence of imperialism.

don't underestimate the japanese...

[WildspitzE]

Re: New crisis? North Korean defector comments on North korean labor camp

don't underestimate the japanese...

Absolutely.

Besides, if you look carefully when you watch terminator, you can see "made in japan" labels on them. We all know the US doesn't produce anything.