Future in Diesels?

[dummass]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I've been driving a KIA 2700 for the past four years. They are very popular diesel work trucks here in Panama. The cab-over design provides a 10 foot bed with no wheel wells. 30 mpg easy! See attached specs.

http://www.silvestermotorcompany.co....ures/k2700.pdf

[lurker]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I can't see an investment angle. All the major motor manufacturers produce diesel engines for non-US markets. European diesels (latest generation) have overcome the pollution problems and as CARB certified now.

The main problem as I understand it in the US is lack of refining capacity for ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel.

[BadJuju]

Re: Future in Diesels?

It costs almost as much energy (and sometimes more) to produce "alternate fuels" like ethanol than the fuel yields.

I have to disagree with him on that. If you are using corn as your stock, sure, but other biofuels, like soybeans and sugarcane, offer substantially more energy than what they require to produce.

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Future in Diesels?

Way down here in little ole' New Zealand we have a plethora of good pickup trucks...better known as Utes.

I currently own a beat up Mitsi L200 2.5l diesel doublecab that gets over 30mpg.

Yes but is it apples to apples?

The US gallon is only 3.78 litres and the Imperial gallon is 4.54 litres.

We see this discrepancy here in Canada all the time when dealing with the US ... which is why the metric measurement (i.e. litres/100 km) is more useful in my opinion.

8 L/100km is 35.31 MPG in Imperial and only 29.4 MPG in US gallon.

Either way - my bet is that plug-in hybrid-electric diesel vehicles is the way of the future.

[charliebrown]

Re: Future in Diesels?

i really hope the idealogues dont put you out of business. I understand your plight. There are lots of tradesmen in my neighboorhood, finish carpenters, plumbers, painters, landscapers etc. they all need some kind of big pickup or van to do their jobs.

They will probably end up requiring a license to operate a vehicle like this, you will have to prove you need it, and of course there will be a processing fee ;)

[lurker]

Re: Future in Diesels?

i really hope the idealogues dont put you out of business. I understand your plight. There are lots of tradesmen in my neighboorhood, finish carpenters, plumbers, painters, landscapers etc. they all need some kind of big pickup or van to do their jobs.

They will probably end up requiring a license to operate a vehicle like this, you will have to prove you need it, and of course there will be a processing fee ;)

If the idealogues don't put them out of business by requiring higher CAFE standards then a combination of peak oil and a destroyed dollar might put them out of business as they try to pay for $10 a gallon gas to power their 15mpg pickups.

The solution I see is for Ford to import the Transit van from its European operations, Daimler to import the Sprinter etc etc. These vehicles already exist, they're just not sold in the states.

[flintlock]

Re: Future in Diesels?

Yes but is it apples to apples?

The US gallon is only 3.78 litres and the Imperial gallon is 4.54 litres.

We see this discrepancy here in Canada all the time when dealing with the US ... which is why the metric measurement (i.e. litres/100 km) is more useful in my opinion.

8 L/100km is 35.31 MPG in Imperial and only 29.4 MPG in US gallon.

Either way - my bet is that plug-in hybrid-electric diesel vehicles is the way of the future.

Aha! I didn't think about Imperial gallons. What type of gallon do they use in Australia.?

[flintlock]

Re: Future in Diesels?

Yeah, when it comes to pure mileage it is very difficult to beat a good diesel or diesel hybrid. There are a lot of reasons for this but the bottom line is that efficiency will increase with compression ratio and in this arena the diesel is king.

I know the political and social mood has changed significantly, but a while back in grad school a lot of my professors were involved in a collaborative research project funded by the government. There were several schools that had unique specialties in IC engine design and testing which explored various parts of the question: Is a 75 mile per gallon automobile possible or feasible. The answer was yes, it is possible but it requires a much lighter and smaller vehicle and it needed to be powered by a diesel hybrid. I saw parts of the report and it was very impressive. But it conflicted with the EPA agenda and was mothballed.


Back to reality. As far as truck diesels go GM was just set to bring online what would have probably been the premier small truck engine in the world when this whole economic collapse occurred. As far as I know the project's future is very much in doubt and I have no idea whether it will ever make it out the factory door now. It would have given fuel mileage in the upper to mid 20s for a full sized Silverado. It was to be rated around 300 to 310 hp and torque in the range of 500 ft-lb. A very nicely done V-8. We'll see if it happens or not after the bankruptcy.

As has been noted there is a tradeoff between emissions and mileage. But there is also a tradeoff many times between power rating and efficiency. In America power has traditionally trumped efficiency in the market. But if it is mandated I do believe (although nowadays I am in a different area of IC engine design and could be woefully wrong on this matter) that a pickup that gets 30 mpg is possible with a slightly lighter and trimmer package. Maybe even with the trucks as they stand right now.

Will

I assume that is the 4.5L Duramax you are talking about? That is a powerful engine in keeping with current American standards. I think they could come up with a six cylinder version that would meet the 30 mpg standard in a size close to the current Chevy full size pickup and still not be a dog.

I just think this is really going to shake up the auto industry like nothing before it. Diesels going from 1% of all cars and light trucks to what, 30-40% in just a few years? Pretty amazing. They have a lot of work to do. Gas stations will have to increase diesel capacity. Mechanics will need training. All at a time the US auto industry is in shambles. This doesn't bode well for the future of US car makers. Not unless Big brother steps in and give yet another helping hand. (THEY WILL)

[GRG55]

Re: Future in Diesels?

Way down here in little ole' New Zealand we have a plethora of good pickup trucks...better known as Utes.

Toyota Hilux

Mitsubishi L200

Nissan Navara

Are the most common Utes available as well as options from Ford and Holden/GM.

I currently own a beat up Mitsi L200 2.5l diesel doublecab that gets over 30mpg.

A business I own uses Nissan Navara diesels that get over 30mpg

And the Toyota Hilux diesel can get over 30mpg.

They can carry almost as much as full-size US pickup trucks, they can tow almost as much as full-size US pickup trucks, and can cram nearly as many people in their doublecabs as full-size US pickup trucks, but I reckon they are at least 200% better.

Cheaper to run, easier to park, but just as reliable and dependable...the higher the price of petrol/diesel goes...the better an economical diesel Ute looks over it's old-school competition.

I reckon with a focus on aerodynamics, right-sized tyres appropriate for the job rather than aesthetics, and effective use of weight saving materials where appropriate....I think a well designed and smart-sized pickup truck could potentially achieve 40mpg over the next 5 years with some decent effort.

Just my 0.02c

They do NOT have anywhere near the load and tow capability of a full size North American diesel pick-up. My diesel Ford has a GCVW of 23,000 pounds...none of the small pickups come anywhere close to that.

However, since so many pick-ups in North America don't often carry anything more than people, and haul anything more than sport equipment or camping gear, the smaller versions would seem a perfectly reasonable solution. One thing though; if the USA was to convert in a large way to diesel vehicles it will create a major refinery product imbalance in the world. I don't actually think it's possible for the USA to reach the level of diesel light cars and trucks as the UK or parts of Europe [e.g. France] because of this.

Frankly I think that the Administration's regulatory approach to fuel economy is just more of the same...and human ingenuity being what it is, buyers and manufacturers will find ways around it. Certainly Obama is in no danger of being forced to abandon his armoured black Chevy Suburban . If they really wanted to change behaviour the dysfunctional Congress would just raise the price of fuel, the way they've been doing for years in Europe.

[flintlock]

Re: Future in Diesels?

They do NOT have anywhere near the load and tow capability of a full size North American diesel pick-up. My diesel Ford has a GCVW of 23,000 pounds...none of the small pickups come anywhere close to that.

However, since so many pick-ups in North America don't often carry anything more than people, and haul anything more than sport equipment or camping gear, the smaller versions would seem a perfectly reasonable solution. One thing though; if the USA was to convert in a large way to diesel vehicles it will create a major refinery product imbalance in the world. I don't actually think it's possible for the USA to reach the level of diesel light cars and trucks as the UK or parts of Europe [e.g. France] because of this.

Frankly I think that the Administration's regulatory approach to fuel economy is just more of the same...and human ingenuity being what it is, buyers and manufacturers will find ways around it. Certainly Obama is in no danger of being forced to abandon his armoured black Chevy Suburban . If they really wanted to change behaviour the dysfunctional Congress would just raise the price of fuel, the way they've been doing for years in Europe.

I'm curious about the ability to ramp up diesel refinement in the US also. They'd better decide on a plan and get started though. The mpg requirements start to kick in in 2.5 years.

[Wild Style]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I assume that is the 4.5L Duramax you are talking about? That is a powerful engine in keeping with current American standards. I think they could come up with a six cylinder version that would meet the 30 mpg standard in a size close to the current Chevy full size pickup and still not be a dog.

I just think this is really going to shake up the auto industry like nothing before it. Diesels going from 1% of all cars and light trucks to what, 30-40% in just a few years? Pretty amazing. They have a lot of work to do. Gas stations will have to increase diesel capacity. Mechanics will need training. All at a time the US auto industry is in shambles. This doesn't bode well for the future of US car makers. Not unless Big brother steps in and give yet another helping hand. (THEY WILL)

My brother wants to become a mechanic. A year ago I told him do not go to school for mechanics UNLESS it is a diesel engine school. He found one in Miami so we are just trying to work out the logistics of him going.

I am a big big big proponent of Diesel and I told my wife I refuse to by another car until they come out with a 2 door diesel that is a manual transmission. The only problem I see is, I don't think current petrol based diesel engines will be the end result of all this. I think it will be bio diesel. Now the problem with bio diesel is, current filtering technology (smog reduction technology) can not filter out all of the particulate produced by bio diesel, so there will have to be work done on that front.

For anyone interested, here is a excellent series of videos on the subject link. If you don't feel like watching all of those, at least watch the "solutions: fuel from scum" and the "Algae: The holy grail of bio fuel" videos. The scientist in the "Algae: The holy grail of bio fuel" has another set of videos that are about 4 parts in total on youtube. He goes deep into the science of producing bio diesel, the benefits, yields produced via bio diesel as opposed to other forms of fuel. Also look into a video on the biodiesel smog reduction systems.

As someone else pointed out, Europe has most of this sorted out already. BMW has a 1 series that gets something like 47 MPG. I am hoping they bring that to the 3 series with manual (currently they only have a auto tranny diesel 3 series).

The only other hurdle i see with bio diesel is educating the masses. Anyone under 30 knows little to nothing about it. Anyone over 30 thinks diesel is still the loud, dirty, smog producing machines of yester year. The bio-diesel industry needs to crank up the propoganda machine to help dispel these myths.

As for American car makers, I just don't get them at all. Why are they always so darn behind on the times. Europe has proven diesel technology and you get far more torque out of a diesel engine, far more gas mileage and you throw a twin turbo on those things are they can become little rockets. What is not to like/embrace? I think diesel makes more sense to because it will not take much in the way of retrofitting existing gas stations to support diesel fuels. Not like going all electric or hydrogen and then outfitting existing gas stations to support those. What I wouldn't give for a manual tranny diesel twin turbo dodge charger!

I was trying to find one article I read on CNET a year ago about a company that takes Hummer H4s and converts them over to diesel. The company was able to either double or triple the gas mileage via this conversion. Can't seem to find the article though.

[lurker]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I'm not sure why so many posters think that the rise of diesels will spell doom for Ford and GM.

Ford and GM have subsidiary companies around the world who have excellent diesel engine technology: in fact Ford and GM Europe are years ahead of the US in this respect. All they have to do is bring the technology across the atlantic.

[Wild Style]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I'm not sure why so many posters think that the rise of diesels will spell doom for Ford and GM.

Ford and GM have subsidiary companies around the world who have excellent diesel engine technology: in fact Ford and GM Europe are years ahead of the US in this respect. All they have to do is bring the technology across the atlantic.

Yep, like the ford fiesta (why they don't bring this to America is beyond me)

[GRG55]

Re: Future in Diesels?

I'm curious about the ability to ramp up diesel refinement in the US also. They'd better decide on a plan and get started though. The mpg requirements start to kick in in 2.5 years.

Not sure what you mean?

The refiners cannot make diesel all by itself. The more diesel they make from that cut of the crude barrel the more other products including gasoline, etc also must come out the back end of the refinery. Nobody can "ramp up" diesel output in a big way in the USA all by itself. That's the dilemma.

The Europeans, who use large amounts of diesel in their private transportation fleet (passenger cars) "solve" the problem of all the extra gasoline by shipping their excess to the USA market where the passenger fleet is predominantly gasoline. Try to shift the USA market heavily to diesel and something has to "give". The first thing that will give is the worldwide supply of diesel is not able to meet demand and the price goes up. Then everyone who stayed with a gasoline engine looks like a hero because their fuel is selling cheaper...

[lurker]

Re: Future in Diesels?

Not sure what you mean?

The refiners cannot make diesel all by itself. The more diesel they make from that cut of the crude barrel the more other products including gasoline, etc also must come out the back end of the refinery. Nobody can "ramp up" diesel output in a big way in the USA all by itself. That's the dilemma.

The Europeans, who use large amounts of diesel in their private transportation fleet (passenger cars) "solve" the problem of all the extra gasoline by shipping their excess to the USA market where the passenger fleet is predominantly gasoline. Try to shift the USA market heavily to diesel and something has to "give". The first thing that will give is the worldwide supply of diesel is not able to meet demand and the price goes up. Then everyone who stayed with a gasoline engine looks like a hero because their fuel is selling cheaper...

My knowledge is extremely limited but I thought "cracking" was used to increase the proportion of desirable fractions in a barrel of crude. Alter the cracking and you alter the balance of gasoline / diesel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_(chemistry)

On its face this would appear to offer a means of altering the gas/diesel balance.