911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

[wayiwalk]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

ugg. was curious enough to push play and watch....and then saw Ed Asner's mug on the video and figured that these guys seriously damaged their credibility right there....I'd sooner give more credence to a video with Lady Gaga as a narrator.

[Ghent12]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

I want to know the truth. An open, non-biased investigation is needed.

It is admirable to pursue the truth, but let's examine what it is you are asking for. What agency or group, if any, could possibly perform a "non-biased [re]investigation" of 9/11? Any agency seeking a "new investigation" is likely biased against the current "official" conclusion, so that means an agency must be appointed to do it--i.e., it will be NIST that does the reinvestigation. But they aren't unbiased either, if the "Truthers" are to be believed.

Also, if you would like to message me privately or start a thread in a more appropriate forum, I would like to know what arguments the "Truthers" present that you find extremely compelling.

[shiny!]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

What a delight to see your post this morning!

Having been seriously burned by the New Age movement many years ago, a lot of the Project Avalon stuff sounds really far-fetched to me. Unprovable fantasies that feel emotionally satisfying. But you're one of the most intelligent persons I've ever known, so if you're willing to devote so much of your time to it, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and look into it more.

Because of the way the media portrays them, I thought the 9-11 Truthers were totally silly "conspiracy nuts"... until I looked at the evidence they presented. I think the reason so many people denigrate 9-11 Truthers out of hand is because if the Truthers are right it would destroy the entire government-trusting paradigm that people live in. Too scary for most people to contemplate!

What the Truthers present is extremely compelling and I now consider myself one of them. But I'm not an engineer or physicist. There might be very good scientific arguments that would show the Truthers to be wrong, and I'm open to that. I don't want to believe anything... I want to know the truth. An open, non-biased investigation is needed.

[Ghent12]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

I presume you're one of those who think "the actual truth is known to a reasonable degree of certainty".

The 9-11 Commission co-chairs said the CIA obstructed their investigation,

Stonewalled by the C.I.A.
January 2, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opinion/02kean.html

See also,

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
August 2, 2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0.html?sub=new (emphasis mine)

Anyway, it sounds like you haven't done your homework. No offense.

Homework on what? There's no way to know precisely what went down from the military's or the intelligence community's perspectives unless you have clearance and a need to know. That's how classified information works. What does it matter that the CIA "obstructed" the investigation or that a former governor said NORAD lied to him? The mere existence of secrets does not beg further investigation.

This thread is about WTC 7 and on that, yes, I have done more than my share of homework. Frankly, the truth about WTC 7 is already known to a reasonable degree of certainty, and it most likely resembles the "official" scenario outlined in the final addendum.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

Cow! Great to hear from you, sir!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

Thanks for the kind words, guys .

I'm keeping myself quite busy over at Project Avalon (projectavalon.net, the sister site to Project Camelot). Myself (under my real first name of "Paul") and one other chap from Romania are the site Admins over there.

I just come back here to have a quick look around every month or so. Last time I came by, it was just after Eric posted something about silver - saved me a bundle that little visit (Thanks!)

I'm afraid the topic of 9/11 is a bit too mundane for my tastes now.

[db]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

... And what of the people who don't believe that a new investigation is warranted? Should tax dollars be spent on what, in their eyes, amounts to a fairy tale when the actual truth is known to a reasonable degree of certainty? How many SETI's or dragnets for Bigfoot can the public afford to sate its own curiosity and ignorance? ...

I presume you're one of those who think "the actual truth is known to a reasonable degree of certainty".

The 9-11 Commission co-chairs said the CIA obstructed their investigation,

Stonewalled by the C.I.A.
January 2, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opinion/02kean.html

... What we do know is that government officials decided not to inform a lawfully constituted body, created by Congress and the president, to investigate one the greatest tragedies to confront this country. We call that obstruction.

See also,

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
August 2, 2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0.html?sub=new (emphasis mine)

... "We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied." ...

Anyway, it sounds like you haven't done your homework. No offense.

[Ghent12]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

In 2006, 36% of Americans polled distrusted the official 9-11 narrative, and in 2007 62% of Americans thought some US gov't officials knew about the attacks in advance. So to quote you, if 'fully 1/3rd of Democrats believe that 9/11 was an "inside job"'', that doesn't seem significant. I've always been puzzled by those who think the Bush admin could have pulled off 9-11, as they were only in office for 9 months before it happened.

http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

"Intellectually dishonest" is how I would describe the 9-11 Commission Report, FEMA's, and NIST's investigations. The purpose of linking to the patriotsquestion911.com website is a way to overcome the misconception that only kooks disbelieve the official 9-11 conspiracy theory.

Well that's all fine and dandy, but almost nobody that's calling for "a new investigation into 9/11" will be ever be satisfied with anything, so they are essentially wasting everyone's time. Do they want NIST to do another investigation? Probably not--but which agency is more appropriate to do an investigation into how the complex was destroyed? If they do actually get a new NIST or other agency to investigate, will those calling for that investigation actually be satisfied if the results are inconclusive or confirm the "official" narrative? Those are, after all, the only possibilities that can occur if the more tin-foil-minded are to be believed.

And what of the people who don't believe that a new investigation is warranted? Should tax dollars be spent on what, in their eyes, amounts to a fairy tale when the actual truth is known to a reasonable degree of certainty? How many SETI's or dragnets for Bigfoot can the public afford to sate its own curiosity and ignorance?

I've had the experience of discussing, at length, many of the more detailed points regarding 9/11 and specifically the mechanism for collapse of WTC 7. Those that claim to seek "the Truth" generally gravitate to just about any theory other than the one postulated by NIST's final report. They, collectively, give equal credence to outlandish directed-energy weapons, to secret squirrel silent explosives, and to holographic cruise missiles. Although a specific individual signing up for "the Truth" may balk at one outlandish theory, they are at a loss to pick between two or three different versions outside the "official" story. In my experience, no "Truther" is interested in reality but in perpetuating their fantasy that they are smart enough to piece together a giant conspiracy, a la X-Files.

Are people genuinely interested in a new investigation? Maybe a few are, but I imagine they are quite the exception to the norm of people subscribing to such petitions.

[db]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

People with political axes to grind have motive to see the world in their own way, regardless of any presupposed objectivity. As an example, fully 1/3rd of Democrats believe that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent. I don't know of any statistical approach done, but from anecdotes I believe that the majority of libertarians believe that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent. Both of these groups are naturally suspicious of the Bush administration, with the latter group being suspicious of all government altogether.

To think that people don't have political leanings is unfathomable. Statistically speaking, there should be a small portion of every demographic or group that believes that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent--engineers, physicists, pilots, al Qaeda, retired military, high school teachers, and etc. Appeals to authority, especially such as appealing to the supposed authority of the intellectually dishonest "AE911 Truth" group, are still intellectual fallacies...

In 2006, 36% of Americans polled distrusted the official 9-11 narrative, and in 2007 62% of Americans thought some US gov't officials knew about the attacks in advance. So to quote you, if 'fully 1/3rd of Democrats believe that 9/11 was an "inside job"'', that doesn't seem significant. I've always been puzzled by those who think the Bush admin could have pulled off 9-11, as they were only in office for 9 months before it happened.

http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

"Intellectually dishonest" is how I would describe the 9-11 Commission Report, FEMA's, and NIST's investigations. The purpose of linking to the patriotsquestion911.com website is a way to overcome the misconception that only kooks disbelieve the official 9-11 conspiracy theory.

[Ghent12]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

A lot of mathematicians and scientists want a new investigation as well. Hard to see what their motivation would be other than a search for the truth unless it was to get sacked for speaking out like physicist Steven Jones,
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html

Some of the pilots' comments are amusing,
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

People with political axes to grind have motive to see the world in their own way, regardless of any presupposed objectivity. As an example, fully 1/3rd of Democrats believe that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent. I don't know of any statistical approach done, but from anecdotes I believe that the majority of libertarians believe that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent. Both of these groups are naturally suspicious of the Bush administration, with the latter group being suspicious of all government altogether.

To think that people don't have political leanings is unfathomable. Statistically speaking, there should be a small portion of every demographic or group that believes that 9/11 was an "inside job" to some extent--engineers, physicists, pilots, al Qaeda, retired military, high school teachers, and etc. Appeals to authority, especially such as appealing to the supposed authority of the intellectually dishonest "AE911 Truth" group, are still intellectual fallacies.

c1ue summed it up quite nicely. There are numerous reasons that people will sign any given petition or form.

[db]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

Your first point is fair, it does happen often, and often isn't representative of the truth.

However, while they obviously have strong opinions after studying the circumstance, what they are signing is for the re-opening of the investigation. I think it'd be hard to argue that sufficient due dilligence was done during the government investigation.

A lot of mathematicians and scientists want a new investigation as well. Hard to see what their motivation would be other than a search for the truth unless it was to get sacked for speaking out like physicist Steven Jones,
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html

Some of the pilots' comments are amusing,
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

[Adeptus]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

I am always amused by the ongoing attempts to paint something true by simply showing XXX number of YYY type of people signed a petition agreeing to it.

If there's anything that can be learned from the ongoing climate wars, it is that anyone - even scientists and engineers - will sign anything for a plethora of reasons.

Your first point is fair, it does happen often, and often isn't representative of the truth.

However, while they obviously have strong opinions after studying the circumstance, what they are signing is for the re-opening of the investigation. I think it'd be hard to argue that sufficient due dilligence was done during the government investigation.

[lektrode]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

....If there's anything that can be learned from the ongoing climate wars, it is that anyone - even scientists and engineers - will sign anything for a plethora of reasons.

yeah, kinda like the % who _still_ say they approve of 'the messiah', who 'luckily' enuf for him, has his 2nd event of the week to look 'presidential' - eye can already see him in lower manhattan 2morow morning, proclaiming it a 'disaster area'

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._tracking_poll

http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/ba...-approval.aspx

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...oval-1044.html

Polling Data

Poll	Date	Sample	Approve	Disapprove	Spread
RCP Average	8/17 - 8/26	--	44.0	52.0	-8.0
Gallup	8/24 - 8/26	1500 A	41	51	-10
Rasmussen Reports	8/24 - 8/26	1500 LV	45	54	-9
CNN/Opinion Research	8/24 - 8/25	1017 A	45	54	-9
Associated Press/GfK	8/18 - 8/22	1000 A	46	52	-6
Pew Research	8/17 - 8/21	1509 A	43	49	-6

[c1ue]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

Apparently over 1,500 Architects & Engineers with all kinds of Phds have analyzed the 911 evidenced and signed the AE911Truth petition calling for a new investigation of the destruction of all 3 high-rises at the World Trade Center on 9/11

I am always amused by the ongoing attempts to paint something true by simply showing XXX number of YYY type of people signed a petition agreeing to it.

If there's anything that can be learned from the ongoing climate wars, it is that anyone - even scientists and engineers - will sign anything for a plethora of reasons.

[Adeptus]

Re: 911...10 years later: 1500 Engineers investigate Building 7 collapse

Ah yes, I remember him. He took some time off from here and went over to Project Camelot and the like.
You know what they say... "When you're one step ahead, they call you - Genius. When you're two steps ahead - Mad!" :-)