Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Judaism and Christianity must co-exist

Chris - could you point me to readings explaining this further. If it helps you to better select, I ask this as an atheist, of Christian heritage, who agrees that the Christian basis of our Western culture is essential to our freedom, and who vigorously disavows the efforts of more prominent atheists to remove religion from the public square.

My understanding of Judaism is limited to thinking of it as being an antecedent of Christianity and of the other major religions, most like Christianity ... most likely a very limited understanding ;).

Thank-you.

[Chris]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

What part of killing innocent children in a MAJOR disproportionate amount (at least 10 to 0, as in 0 Israeli children have been killed in this rocket campaign by Hamas so far) is ever justified? What exactly was "halted"? Useless rockets being fired from a poor neighborhood that damaged buildings from a less poor one that sits across an imaginary line (the Gaza border)?

Tell me, sir, what then are the right proportions of killing in a war between mortal enemies?

I do not find comfort in the death of innocents and children but neither you nor I are able to force the hand of history. The tides of nations and peoples are far more powerful than the individual actors within them. The nation of Israel, like the Jewish people before them, faces an existential threat, and unlike the Europeans, will fight for the continuation of their peoples. I, as a Christian of Palestinian descent, will support them.

Respectfully, that is all I wish to say on this topic at this forum.

[ricket]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Ricket, a year and a half old cease fire between Israel and Hamas ended two days ago, and during that time a large number of rockets were fired at Israeli cities. At the most superficial level of analysis, the attacks were aimed at halting this.

What part of killing innocent children in a MAJOR disproportionate amount (at least 10 to 0, as in 0 Israeli children have been killed in this rocket campaign by Hamas so far) is ever justified? What exactly was "halted"? Useless rockets being fired from a poor neighborhood that damaged buildings from a less poor one that sits across an imaginary line (the Gaza border)?

There are plenty of sites that discuss the geopolitical complexities of the situation in that region. You will probably find more thorough answers to your questions there than you will at iTulip. If you do want to find more meaningful answers then you might, and even if you can't, in time you may be able to ask more meaningful questions about a deeply complex political situation.

There is nothing that I will ever read, listen, or witness in my life (that I havent already) that could ever make me justify the killing of innocents. To do so is to have perverted the very "justice" that you seek. There is nothing in this world, EVER, that is worth killing innocent children. And the fact that a "government" is responsible for these crimes, then that just proves they lose the right to govern at all (looks at Israel).

So please, give me an example of when killing children is justified, I would love to hear your so called rationalization of this "deeply complex political situation".

Could you please find a comparable image to the one below that shows Israeli children suffering the same fate?

WARNING: GRAPHIC: http://www.thecornerreport.com/media...ks/pitiful.jpg

[Chris]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Let me put it this way Jay, I would choose to save the life of my children over your life. Does that answer your question.

However, at an spiritual level, whatever does it matter my actions if we are all in the end one...

It matters a great deal, Sapiens, and that is exactly what is missing from all these discussions of the conflict. I do not often quote from intellectuals to explain my point but in this case I must choose one from the political philosopher and champion of liberal democratic pluralism, Jurgen Habermas;

"Christianity, and nothing else," he wrote, "is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the benchmarks of western civilization. To this day, we have no other options [to Christianity]. We continue to nourish ourselves from this source. Everything else is postmodern chatter."

Habermas speaks as a Western atheist intellectual and hence focuses on Christianity, but anyone who has studied and understood the religious foundations of the West will see that Judaism and Christianity must co-exist, one with the other. Many Christian and Jewish theologians (Martin Buber, Franz Rosenzweig, etc) have covered this in great detail (if you are interested in seeing what they have to say). As this is an economics forum, I will leave it at that, except to say that for most enlightened liberal atheists this conflict and it's analysis often come down to simple utilitarian calculus and hence miss the point entirely. For a larger majority in this world I suspect it signifies something much deeper even if most can not (or will not) articulate it.

[Rajiv]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

They were no different from me, they think a lot about the world, put up with a lot of political bullshit, want to protect their countrymen, AND understand that most of us on either side of this divide could live and love and peacefully co-exist with out much effort at all.

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We all realized that 10% of the people on either side are ******* it all up, it's as simple as that.

JTabeb,

It is the 10% that make the world unlivable for the 90% -- For a deeper understanding, read "Political Ponerology" Understanding that 10%, and recognizing them for what they are, and taking appropriate actions to safeguard yourself and others like you, could be the only way for this world to become a better place to live!

[Sapiens]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

The Pauli exclusion principle makes us all usurers, then.

Thanks Scot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
This additional force is therefore responsible for the everyday observation in the macroscopic world that two solid objects cannot be in the same place in the same time.

[jtabeb]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Try to occupy the same time and space with another and let me know how that works out for you, that is, if you survive.

Been doing that for going on 12 years now, she ain't killed me yet, nor I her, and considering our respective backgrounds, our children are remarkably well adjusted.;)

[Sapiens]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Try to occupy the same time and space with another and let me know how that works out for you, that is, if you survive.

[jtabeb]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

So what are you Sapiens, a usurer or a fool?

Sapiens sets up a dichotomy that seems to present a challenge for peaceful co-existence, a paradox if you will.

What he doesn't state is that the paradox is EASILY resolved.

I met some Israeli pilots while they were here to buy a new airplane from the US. They were here to "try before you buy" type of thing.

We had a great time visiting and flying with them, but the most interesting thing was the conversations that we had in the "ready room" (read B A R) afterwards.

Great, Great bunch of guys. As you know I'm not the most PC guy, nor have I ever been accused of being indirect, to put it mildly.

So bottom line we had a lot of drinks, smoked a few cigs, and talked about all the things you shouldn't talk about when you have foreign visitors. (you know, religion, politics, and money).

I got into a wee bit of trouble for my direct conversations with these guys, but I had the conversation I wanted to have with them, not the bullshit PC version I was told to have with them.

What did I learn?

They were no different from me, they think a lot about the world, put up with a lot of political bullshit, want to protect their countrymen, AND understand that most of us on either side of this divide could live and love and peacefully co-exist with out much effort at all.

Maybe it was just that I have an interesting story,
(my Dad, Palestinian American, died fighting the Russian's in Afghanistan in the early 80's, and here I am a Pilot in the USAF, married to a girl who's grandmother was a Holocaust survivor, and we have three kids) but I think it was much more than that. We all realized that 10% of the people on either side are ******* it all up, it's as simple as that.

So the solution to the paradox is to let the "FOOLS" live together in peace and harmony and let the other ass-wipes duke it out and kill each other.

Now granted the spill over effects of the conflict cause more problems than can be allowed but the important point for all of you to take away is this.

For 80% of the people, a solution exists, it's a shame that it only takes 20% or so to cause a conflict to plunge into perpetual war. Think about that.

But DON'T tell me that MOST people have irreconcilable differences. That is just another popular untruth to allow people to maintain the fallacy of fearing the "other".

Don't buy crap, it smells bad and it will make you stink too if you buy it, so just don't.

P.S. There is no deviation from historical fact in my re-telling of the above, i.e. YES it's all true, in case you were going to ask.

[Scot]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

What is so deeply complex about it? It comes down to one simple thing, one either coexists, or excludes others. Usurers believe they have the absolute right to exclude others, deluded fools believe that we all can coexist in a peaceful manner.

What is so deeply complex about that?

The Pauli exclusion principle makes us all usurers, then.

[Sapiens]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

So what are you Sapiens, a usurer or a fool?

Let me put it this way Jay, I would choose to save the life of my children over your life. Does that answer your question.

However, at an spiritual level, whatever does it matter my actions if we are all in the end one...

[KGW]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Ricket, a year and a half old cease fire between Israel and Hamas ended two days ago, and during that time a large number of rockets were fired at Israeli cities. At the most superficial level of analysis, the attacks were aimed at halting this.

That would be the most superficial analysis, as you say. Which is the one the Israelis and the U.S. administration are projecting as best they can. . .

[Jay]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

What is so deeply complex about it? It comes down to one simple thing, one either coexists, or excludes others. Usurers believe they have the absolute right to exclude others, deluded fools believe that we all can coexist in a peaceful manner.

What is so deeply complex about that?

So what are you Sapiens, a usurer or a fool?

[Sapiens]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

in time you may be able to ask more meaningful questions about a deeply complex political situation.

What is so deeply complex about it? It comes down to one simple thing, one either coexists, or excludes others. Usurers believe they have the absolute right to exclude others, deluded fools believe that we all can coexist in a peaceful manner.

What is so deeply complex about that?

[Chris]

Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

Ricket, a year and a half old cease fire between Israel and Hamas ended two days ago, and during that time a large number of rockets were fired at Israeli cities. At the most superficial level of analysis, the attacks were aimed at halting this.

There are plenty of sites that discuss the geopolitical complexities of the situation in that region. You will probably find more thorough answers to your questions there than you will at iTulip. If you do want to find more meaningful answers then you might, and even if you can't, in time you may be able to ask more meaningful questions about a deeply complex political situation.