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Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

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  • #46
    Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

    Originally posted by jtabeb View Post
    I'm sure you know that HAMAS was brought about into being by the Shien Beit, Isreal's security service and that the inital blow was supposed to be to destabilize Fateh, the political movement founded by Yassir Arafat. It was attempt to de-stabilize internal palestinian politics so that political consensus could not be achieved. It worked rather well as you can see.
    I have read about it and I'm aware of the concepts developed by Frank Kitson from his experience in Kenya for the British.

    Gangs and counter-gangs 1960

    Low intensity operations; subversion, insurgency, peace-keeping

    But I haven't been able to find work on it. There is again something from the Canadians, called Hamas is a Creation of Mossad and it mentions the Jewish professor Zeev Sternhell. It seems like this guy has been a victim of terrorism himself recently.
    A little more than two months ago, a prominent left-wing professor and Israel Prize winner, Professor Zeev Sternhell, was wounded by a pipe bomb planted outside his home.


    • #47
      Re: Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kill 192

      Jtabeb - I find the post below disingenuous to the highest order. Read the PDF Chris posted. What's his point? You want to wave UN rules defining
      "acceptable norms" in the settlement of international disputes around, with an idea of boxing the Israeli's up in this legal framework, yet you say nothing whatsoever about the fact that HAMAS have adopted as the core strategy of BOTH their offence and defence now since many years, A) the direction of their bombs and missiles systematically against civilian targets, and B) for their defence, their sytematic strategic dispersal within civilian populations. Any international court of law which was free of the cloying biases in evidence here both at the UN, on the popular street, and amongst those who hold Israel to a different set of rules than they apply to any other country on earth, would have to recognize that when an entity such as HAMAS waives these "international rules of combat" not only casually, but formally, by incorporating the use of Civilians as a core concept in it's offence and defence, then excoriating the Israelis from eventually resorting to limited waivers of these same international rules of combat constitutes hypocrisy of a quite notable extent.

      Hamas not only has long since abrogated this core UN human rights principle, they have in fact been one of the most systematic PIONEERS in it's use, both in offence and defence. If you want to wave UN Human Rights charter rules at the Israelis, at least be credible and note clearly that after Camp David, which Arafat scrapped on behalf of the Palestinians (much to the dismay of the Israelis!) the failures of leadership are on the PALESTINIAN side, not on the Israeli side, to find the most conclusive diplomatic avenues to resolution of the strife. Your palestinian leaders here are the very worst thing that could have befallen the Palestinian people. Unless and until Palestinians recognize this frankly, and stop the childish heaping of blame for their continuing impasse on Israeli "gross human rights violations and cynical refusal to make peace" they will be trapped in an endless suffering. These HAMAS leaders are the worst. Bloodthirsty. Uninterested in developing a civilian core to their command of their country. Uninterested in multi-party systems. Uninterested in cohabiting with Israel. Worse yet, committed to a vision of endless war to extract a blood tithe from Israel to appease their hatreds.

      I have zero patience with proponents of Israel's "gross human rights violations" who artfully and mincingly step around any mention of the current crop of Palestinian leaders horrific institutionalization of human rights violations. These people have pioneered the concepts of mass, indiscriminate civilian bombings, mass, indiscriminate assassination of their opposing internal opposition groups, and mass, indiscriminate dispersal of their fighting cadres within the civilian population to use as "human shields". What is not to understand, in these very simple and factual observations, eh? Chris's objections are not "slanted" nor "favoritist". They are sober and they represent a series of tough questions which apologists for Palestinian victimhood need to answer truthfully. The Palestinians are some of the most gifted and intelligent people in the Middle East. But the ENTIRE crop of leadership, both in Hamas and Fatah, represents horrifically failed leadership. Palestinians deserve better. Indeed, the arrival of a "Ghandi" would galvanize Israeli interest to cut them every bit as good a deal as Arafat was offered at Camp David by Begin.

      If I saw someone as good (or preferably better even!) than Mahmoud Abbas not only genuinely at the helm of Palestinian negotiations, but actually demonstrating some scrap of control over the innumerable Palestinian militant cadres who's only language is a gun and a bomb, I would line up much more emphatically behind them and demand stiff concessions from the Israelis.

      I'd speak up for the Israelis being good for their original promises, to give the Palestinians exactly what was promised at Camp David. But the problem is I DON'T SEE A TRACE OF THAT in any Palestinian faction. I see Abbas as a decent man whom however has no credible scrap of control over the seething cauldron of "militant factions" in the Palestinian arena. Let's not mince words - these "factions" are thoroughly married to using every ugliest terror trick in the book to gain attention to their claims. They not only tear up the Geneva convention or UN "human rights" rulebooks - they spit on this stuff. You want to excoriate the Israelis, then desist from using victim-like justifications for the whole mass of these Palestinian splinter groups. They are heavily funded by a lot of very cynical groups outside the Israeli / Palestinian question altogether, and they have been funded and manipulated by these larger interests for DECADES. Heap scorn on the Israelis for their "rampant human rights abuses" without mentioning with full detail and seriousness, the gravity of the failures of leadership among Palestinians, and your critiques lose credibility to my view.

      No need to wave important and legally analytical sounding declaratives such as "logical fallacy" around, if you decline to get the rudiments of your impartial preliminary acknowledgements uttered first - if you did, that would gain our trust in your impartiality. Declaiming on individual points that "It's a fact" means NOT MUCH, if you engage in such heavy editing of the full dimension of the issues.

      Originally posted by jtabeb View Post
      Within international law, of course.

      I like to state facts and argue opinions. The first post was fact according to the 4th Geneva Conventions, so argue what you want about prosecuting the conflict or whom ever you support in it, but please don't dismiss this fact from the discussion.

      Go read haaretz about the current operation.

      "they keep electing militants. what do they expect?"

      I didn't expect this logical fallacy from you but so be it.

      That's sort of like "we'll gee those americans re-elected (GWB, republicans, people that didn't support their own economic interests, etc.... )So, they deserve what they get"

      Or kind of like, "well she was asking for it, just look how she was dressed."

      And kind of like " well what was he expecting? A colored should know better than to go down there after dark"

      I could almost give you the above if there were now interventions in the outcome of the fate of the Palestinian people, but there were more than a few. Self-determination has been something that they have longed for but but been unable to capture. I'm sure you know that HAMAS was brought about into being by the Shien Beit, Isreal's security service and that the inital blow was supposed to be to destabilize Fateh, the political movement founded by Yassir Arafat. It was attempt to de-stabilize internal palestinian politics so that political consensus could not be achieved. It worked rather well as you can see.

      So to suggest "that people deserve what they get" may be an axiom to you, it is a logical fallacy of monumental proportions. And, I might add, that is fact, not an opinion.

      Again the bottom line is Facts are facts, and opinions are not.

      War crimes conducted by Israel against the Palestinians are not opinion, which should be obvious to you as you (rightly) didn't argue with this fact.

      Hopefully, this will add some perspective to this debate.




      • #48
        Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: