Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

[lektrode]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

I think politics is getting worse. Because only the two parties can win, people feel that if they
vote their ideas, it is a wasted vote. Consequently, the vote for "lesser of two evils". But since both parties have been infiltrated by FIRE interests, and both lack courage to change entitlements, the nation never gets the leadership needed to solve problems. I would say the politicians earlier in this century were much better than now.

Besides tax paid campaign funds, we need to diminish majority take all regional elections. Only the established parties can ever get 51%. Suppose the senate was elected on a nationwide basis, with each seat representing 1% of the vote.
There would be libertarians, greens, peace party, war party, etc. The two parties would gradually lose power and real change could come about. People could vote their values instead of party loyalties. Campaigns would start being about ideas!

that could work - or how about something along the lines of how some 3rd world countries do it (dunno which ones, just am aware that some do):

anybody can run for any office (with some kind of qualifying process)
in order to win, somebody must get at least say 60% of the vote (i'm sick/tired/disgusted with a margin of 51, or even 52.3%, which basically allows the candidate with the most agitated 2% of the electorate to steal the election)

if nobody gets 60%, then a run-off comprised of the candidates that get, in total, 60% of the vote, all others out.

this would continue until there was a CLEAR/DECISIVE winner of at least 61%

it seems to me that this would eliminate having the courts decide, and we could then junk the electoral college altogether and LET A CLEAN/CLEAR MAJORITY OF THE POPULAR VOTE DECIDE THE OUTCOME

and no more squeakers, that allows the chattering class and the activist minority to claim otherwise.

at the tone, please deposit yer .02
(and sorry for getting off bashin summers and slugman - can we go back to that???)

[lektrode]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

A favorite bumper sticker slogan of mine: "Pro-Life? How many kids have you adopted?"

BTW, I'm an adoptive parent. I know what it's like to be truly grateful that someone didn't choose abortion. I wish we lived in a world where no one did.

Maybe if all the Pro-Life advocates -- the ones who are really vocal about it -- took in an orphan or a foster kid, or directly helped a family with hungry kids or that pregnant 18 year old down the street, we could get there. Shouting instructions at people isn't the same as helping them.

+1
and one of the most profoundly intelligent/compassionate/reasonable/balanced POV's eye have ever seen on this topic (well... the tangent that mr steve launched us into - can we go back to bashin summers & slugman again ;)

signed:

R. Dubya Ilk

[LazyBoy]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

A favorite bumper sticker slogan of mine: "Pro-Life? How many kids have you adopted?"

BTW, I'm an adoptive parent. I know what it's like to be truly grateful that someone didn't choose abortion. I wish we lived in a world where no one did.

Maybe if all the Pro-Life advocates -- the ones who are really vocal about it -- took in an orphan or a foster kid, or directly helped a family with hungry kids or that pregnant 18 year old down the street, we could get there. Shouting instructions at people isn't the same as helping them.

[doom&gloom]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Abuse and suffering will always happen, regardless of religion. It is an unfortunate part of the human condition. Indifference gets bred into a system that is based upon money and not compassion. The left is no more immune to this than the right.

As what appears to be a dedicated lefty, you completely ignored my post earlier about the failings of the left to protect jobs or human rights under Clinton or Obama. That is a typical response of an ideologue. I know, I used to be one just like you. Right good, left bad. It actually took the election of Obama to show me how bad the right truly was, and enable me to detest both parties equally.

You complain about the corruptness of religion, yet ignore the corruptness of the state under your own "side" of the political sphere. To one like me it looks like you have been fed the party line and swallowed it whole.

BTW, I should add I am not against abortion, and not pro- or anti-relgion, just pointing out your own inconsistencies in dealing with corruption and suffering.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

You still adhere to this left-right us-them philosophy, so let me play with you.

You worry about baby deaths, but how about all the fetus' that are aborted and have no say in the matter?
What if it were you? Certainly there are FAR MORE of them than what seems to perturb you so much.

I think a fetus of five months gestation in the womb can be born live, as a baby. I have heard of this many times. The baby is just tiny, but it does just fine outside the womb, and under the care of a hospital for an extended period of time. The baby grows-up to be a normal, full-size infant.

At four months (or less) I don't think a fetus has consciousness, and I don't think a fetus can be born live. I am no doctor; I am just a lay person and an official moron, but I have never heard of a fetus of four months (or less) in the womb being born and surviving. And I suspect that fetus would have little or no consciousness both in or out of the womb..... Maybe a doctor might better answer this question than me, and it is an important question to answer. Also, and a quite important to answer: would a four month or younger fetus, once born and possibly survive in some way, be so dwarfed as to be deformed and have other serious mental and physical problems?

Regardless of what religions might teach, I don't think suffering should ever be a part of life. No-one is being done a favour by being born into a life of hell..... I saw what was done to an old woman in hospital (Victoria General Hospital in Victoria, BC) with the tray-board of her high-chair rammed into her gut so she begged for help, 17 or 18 hours per day. That sight, really changed my belief about life, and so-called humanitarians and pro-life people. On the neurology floor ( where they stuck me ) that old woman was known as "the help lady" because she always cried and begged for mercy ( for help ) and no-one came. They kept her in the hallway, and the nurses and doctors just ignored her. The hospital used her tray-board to keep her from falling through her high-chair. [ Winter 2011 ]

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

I think politics is getting worse. Because only the two parties can win, people feel that if they
vote their ideas, it is a wasted vote. Consequently, the vote for "lesser of two evils". But since both parties have been infiltrated by FIRE interests, and both lack courage to change entitlements, the nation never gets the leadership needed to solve problems. I would say the politicians earlier in this century were much better than now.

Besides tax paid campaign funds, we need to diminish majority take all regional elections. Only the established parties can ever get 51%. Suppose the senate was elected on a nationwide basis, with each seat representing 1% of the vote.
There would be libertarians, greens, peace party, war party, etc. The two parties would gradually lose power and real change could come about. People could vote their values instead of party loyalties. Campaigns would start being about ideas!

[shiny!]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Very interesting subject Shiny!

I know EJ is interested in cognitive dissonance, which has also been discussed on brain science podcast.
"Being right" is addictive, and the addicts are the "know it alls".

IN college, without knowing all this neurology, I made a conscious effort to expose myself to different ideas. Over time, I think that does broaden your thinking.

That's very smart.

Retailers know that almost all purchases are ultimately made for emotional reasons, so advertising always appeals to emotions. This shampoo will make you sexy. This truck will put you in the "Real Man Club". Product A will make you superior to others with Product B, transform your mundane existence and make you happy.

Politics is a retail product with politicians as salesmen, not statesmen (Ron Paul excluded). Maybe it's always been this way, though. This politician is righteous, while the other guy is a godless commie. This politician is filled with compassion, while the other guy kills baby birds and wants to destroy education...

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Very interesting subject Shiny!

I know EJ is interested in cognitive dissonance, which has also been discussed on brain science podcast.
"Being right" is addictive, and the addicts are the "know it alls".

IN college, without knowing all this neurology, I made a conscious effort to expose myself to different ideas. Over time, I think that does broaden your thinking.

[doom&gloom]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

You still adhere to this left-right us-them philosophy, so let me play with you.

You worry about baby deaths, but how about all the fetus' that are aborted and have no say in the matter?
What if it were you? Certainly there are FAR MORE of them than what seems to perturb you so much.

[astonas]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Looks like I have some reading to do!

Thanks, shiny!

[shiny!]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Do you happen to have a reference to the study you mentioned above? I'm curious what follow-on work has been done that cites it.

I read somewhere, "Belief is the Enemy of Truth". If I believe anything anymore, it's that ;-)

Here's an article about that study: The Political Brain- Scientific American

Here's the study itself: Neural Bases of Motivated Reasoning: An fMRI Study of Emotional Constraints on Partisan Political Judgment in the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election

Here's a book by the author of the study: The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation

[Starving Steve]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

+1. (But what do I know? I'm responsible for child poverty. But, hey? Why don't we just abort them ... problem solved!)

Dear Raz and the rest of the people that are so concerned with abortion--- and maybe they should be concerned with abortion because a late-term fetus is bearable as a living person.... Fair enough. Science is on your side on that issue, at least for late-term fetuses.

But from the Huffington Post just to-day ( May 7, 2012 ) and posted online: LOUISIANA has an infant mortality rate of 10/1000 live births, using the standard criteria of the age group of babies ( live-birth until first birthday ). LOUISIANA reports 64,800 births per year in the year 2009, so using that figure for a standard year for live births, then LOUISIANA lets die by neglect or poverty,

0.01 X 64,800 = 648 babies which die during their first 12 months.

MISSISSIPPI lets 360 babies die in their first 12 months, mainly because it has a lower number of births due to a lower population in that state than LA.

The electorate in MS and LA are strongly anti-abortion and supposedly pro-life. Fair enough. But why do these two supposedly pro-life states allow so many living infants to die of poverty or neglect in their first year?

The average for infant deaths during their first year in America is about 6.5 per 1000, and even that national average can be reduced once the U.S. gets national health insurance for all people. Meanwhile, how can the religious-right, the pro-life bunch in the South, accept rates of 0.009 or 0.010 dead babies during their first year of life?

Shall I look at your state's statistics, Raz? Alabama?

Meanwhile, kids reading this post might make a copy of it and tack it onto the front-door of their local church. Let's get some "right-to-life" for infants, and not just for first-term fetuses and fertilized eggs.

But this is getting very interesting. What's going-on in the state, or province of Canada, or nation where you live?

Meanwhile Raz, I think you are on the correct side of the right-to-life debate. I am pro-life, as well..... ?Hay un lugar en Mexico o aqui en los Estados Unidos donde haya una persona que le gustan las aborciones? ( Is there a place in Mexico or here in the U.S. where there is someone who likes abortion ? )

[astonas]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

+1! Unfortunately, facts won't change the minds of people who feel a need to BELIEVE in something different. For most people, the truth doesn't matter so much as the feeling of pleasure we get from hearing our beliefs mirrored back to us.

A study was done a few years ago that showed that when people hear talk that agrees with their beliefs, a part of their brain responds the same way it does for an addict receiving his drug of choice. This is why the far right listens to conservative talk radio and gets their news from WorldNetDaily, and the far left listens to liberal talk shows and gets their news from MoveOn.org. People don't want to hear anything that contradicts their beliefs, they simply want the pleasure of having their beliefs reinforced. If they really wanted to learn something new, they would listen with an open mind to arguments from people who disagree with them, because no one side has a total lock on the truth.

+1 This is a powerful observation, thank you for sharing it.

Is the conclusion we may reach from this that we are becoming a nation of belief-addicted partisans? (Both right and left.) And is there no escape?

Since belief is, quite literally, a self-created drug, one should be able to imagine a safe and appropriate dosage. That is to say, it can be a good thing, when a little bit is used to help dull some of the sharp and unhelpful pains that fill each life, or a bad thing, when it is used in sufficient doses to overwhelm reason itself.

I find this paradigm fascinating, especially because it has consequences for how people with different beliefs may function together harmoniously.

For example, under this paradigm, the measure of the value of belief is not in the conviction itself, but in its consequences. (Just as one selects the appropriate dose for a medicine.)

One person may be "sensitive" to a belief structure, and need very little to improve their life and those around them (while "overdosing" easily). Another might need very high dosages just to continue to function in a civilized manner each day, with little benefit from backing off to lower levels. If each acknowledges that it is OK to not have the same belief level or type, it gets easier to see the world as a collection of people trying to do what they need to do in life, and takes away the need to convince others of one's own correctness.

Perhaps for beliefs, as in all else, dosis sola facit venenum. Or more fully:
"Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy." -- Paracelsus

Do you happen to have a reference to the study you mentioned above? I'm curious what follow-on work has been done that cites it.

Thanks!

[Raz]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

They get no traction because of people like Starving Steve on the left, and his ilk on the right.

American Politics is like British Soccer -- fans choose teams for life, and it matters not what they do.

You see this in CONgressional polling, where people rate CONgress continually lower each year, but then say their rep is good. It is mind numbing.

We have now had NO, ZERO, NADA budget for THREE YEARS. WTF?! This is what we ELECT them to do. This is their primary job, or at least what they are paid to do.


A note to Starving Steve and his ilk on the right. All the 'good stuff' was done in the past when the vote of the people actually mattered. Now it is just the dollars from K Street that matter. To continue to blindly believe in some ideology, when the facts support otherwise, is just plain foolish. Witness:

The 'supposed' liberal Clinton gave us job killing NAFTA, and market killing CFMA & repeal of Glass-Steagall.
The 'supposed' conservative GW Bush gave us Medicare part D, zero fiscal responsibility and The Patriot Act (to strip away our Constitutional rights)
The 'supposed' liberal Obama re-upped the Patriot Act, made it worse, and gave us the NDAA and the belief any American can be killed anywhere in the world anytime he says so.

Does anyone see anything strange in thos positions?

I could go on, but really, the facts speak for themselves.

+1. (But what do I know? I'm responsible for child poverty. But, hey? Why don't we just abort them ... problem solved!)

[doom&gloom]

Re: Summers & Krugman: Lost Decade

Understood. It is incredibly important to arrange things in advance. I, for instance, had everything arranged by the time I was 29 yrs old.

"LEAN FORWARD", right? I love you very much, dad, and only want your wishes and life to be honored to the tee.

Be sure to keep dad from toppling over as he leans forward -- falls for seniors can be quite serious you know!