Israeli false flag attacks

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

I agree, Japan was already defeated.
And to show the inmense power of atomic bombs (which were already perfectly understood by scientists) just throwing one of them over an isolated and small military installation would have been enough.
But here we are, Starving Steve asking to "trash Teheran", there seems to be people like him who get to highest office in the USA.
Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.

A couple points:

"perfectly understood by scientists"

Whose scientists? Japan's? Did they? I'm not trying to come across like an @hole but communication between the scientific community during that period especially in/out of Japan would surely have been weak....so I question dissemination of accurate atomic weapon capabilities during that time.

WHY RISK dropping one in a show of force? I capitalized those particular words for a reason(not trying to be difficult).....seriously...have a look at Japan's defensive posture as the US/Allies approached Japan......island hopping operation casualties were becoming VERY, VERY worrisome.

Also, have a look at the US nuclear program at the time.....it might be worthwhile in considering it carefully when we frame the debate on Iran....the ability of the US to produce working nuclear weapons with a high degree of reliability was poor and low volume....the same could be said of Iran if/when they gain the capability.

So the US didn't have much wiggle room in making a visual statement offshore just beyond Tokyo Bay.

If the fireworks display didn't have the intended effect....that cut in half the number of weapons available to the US to force the end of the war.

While we can(and probably will) debate the appropriate course of action for the United States in August 1945......what is not up for debate is the effectiveness of the result...the US achieved it's intended foreign policy objective....the unconditional surrender of Japan and the final end of a very bloody world war.

I am biased......my maternal grandfather served in the Pacific Theatre of Operations and would have directly participated in the invasion of Japan had it gone ahead.

To me, the end of the war with Japan was the least bad realistic option given the intelligence available at the time.....rather than debating the justification of the two nukes dropped, I think it far more relevant to discuss the economic action that helped shape Japan's initiating a war as well as the logistics of the Manhattan project and how they both directly apply to Iran and it's actions today.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.

What's wrong?

That the US can make some incredible achievements but still make horrible mistakes? Much like Iran can build cars and rockets, but still stuff up as well?

How is that wrong?

How are YOU not looking through the lens of history with perfect hindsight?

Were the intelligence estimates on casualties I posted wrong?

Maybe you should have a read of the horrorfest that would have resulted if Op Downfall/Olympic went forward.

Why would so many body bags and Purple Hearts have been manufactured and staged if they weren't expected to be used in the invasion of Japan's home islands?

Let's talk about "historical evidence":

You claim Japan was looking for ways to honorably surrender?

How, and how effectively, did they communicate this to the US Allies AT THE TIME?

What reliable intelligence did the US/allies have about Japan AT THE TIME? Modern persistent intelligence collection(which still has it's flaws) didn't exist at the time...not even close.

How can a nation responsible for such orgiastic violence in the Nanking and Manila Massacres be allowed to conditionally surrender and maintain regime continuity?

How could a nation responsible for horrific mistreatment, murder, cannibalism, and WMD weapons testing on of POWs be allowed to conditionally surrender with honor?

How could a nation who's military fought to the last man and whose civilians were indoctrinated to commit mass suicide on the outer islands be expected to act if directly invaded other than fight to the bitter end?

How could the US/allies NOT decisively break the will of the enemy to fight to the bitter end?

Past performance is indicative of future performance......Japan's past actions(including actions just days/weeks prior to Hiroshima in other Areas of Operation) justified the bombings.

IF a secondary objective was to demonstrate to the Soviets the capability of the US, then the result was excellent.......what would the Soviets have likely done had the war lasted another 1-2 years with a land invasion?

The Soviets amassed significant forces late in the war in the Manchurian Offensive...would they have sat it out and watched? Or would they have forced a split of Japan much like Korea....leading to another Cold War hot confrontation.

Seriously, sometimes I think you argue with folks on this forum just to argue or to pursue some sort of intellectual alpha male dominance.

------

Which brings me to a separate note....this is not the first time I find your posts to be condescending, patronizing, and arrogant.....and I don't believe I am the only person on the forum that feels this way.

While I respect your intellect and the content of your posts at times, you seem to have a need to achieve some sort of intellectual dominance on most every topic you enter....which covers a broad spectrum of topics.... and it's worth noting that I've yet to meet anyone who has effectively achieved subject matter expertise in all.....although I've seen a few who have tried and failed.

Once again I appreciate your content most of the time, but your not my university professor and I strongly encourage you to consider how your posts are perceived and how you are shaping your perception in others eyes on this forum.

If at anytime I've come across as arrogant, patronizing, or condescending to you or anyone else on this forum I certainly hope I get called out on it.....as that is never my intent.

I also understand that I have far more to learn than offer on this forum......but all I detect in you is teacher and never student....sorry...that's just my honest perspective and perception.

------

I'm well aware of Bomber Harris and Curtis LeMay and their fire bombing campaigns.....at the time mass urban centres of gravity(manufacturing/distribution and their work forces) were considered legitimate targets....and I find it bizarre that so much focus is placed on Hiroshima and Nagasaki when so much more damage and destruction was caused in previous firebombing campaigns...yet the focus is on the two nuclear bombings? Firebombing that caused FAR more death and destruction didn't end the war......but two nukes did......which I think lends support towards their legitimate and effective use....regardless of how incredibly destructive they were....the number of dead Americans/Allies were likely far less.....and the same goes for Japanese casualties...even though the consideration of that was probably of very little consequence at the time.

I perceive in your post a definitive Monday Morning Quarterback OPINION that fails to consider the reasonable intelligence picture available AT THE TIME which included the massive casualties of the very recent, very real, and very tangible Battles of Manila, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.

It's easy to poo poo the use of nuclear weapons against Hiroshima and Nagasaki with clinical dispassion and 65+ years of perfect 20/20 hindsight to put the pieces of the puzzle together like a game of Risk.

Just my opinion.....

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.

I was talking to a British woman the other night at dinner. I flippantly said the US or Israel will probably bomb Iran in the run up to the November election. A pained look went over her face. She has many good friends in Iran who can't get out.

[Southernguy]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.

I agree, Japan was already defeated.
And to show the inmense power of atomic bombs (which were already perfectly understood by scientists) just throwing one of them over an isolated and small military installation would have been enough.
But here we are, Starving Steve asking to "trash Teheran", there seems to be people like him who get to highest office in the USA.
Sometimes it is good to try to imagine oneself in the place of the "trashed" people.
Doing that on a daily basis is good for oneīs health, and also to the rest of humanity.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

The US put man on the moon, invented the internet, and invented the transister yet it has also bungled things far worse at times than the 3 Stooges even could on a good day.

How does the ability to manufacture cars or rockets mitigate or prevent an intelligence/asymmetric operation failure?

As far as "massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people" I suppose a far better solution to ending a global war could be found with 65+ years of hindsight?

Maybe folks who are sickened by the US use of nuclear weapons to end WWII should consider the intelligence estimates for casualties ranging from 1-2 million to over 10 million.

Exemplified by the fact that there's STILL circa 100,000 Purple Heart medals left unissued based on the massive numbers manufactured in anticipation of the need to invade Japan....and that's after the quarter million or so issued since the end of WWII.

Personally, I'm not sympathetic to your choice of words.

I tend to think that while the enormous loss of life was terribly tragic....losses would have been far more enormous and far more tragic had a land invasion of Japan as planned proceeded.

I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.

+1

[c1ue]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.

Sorry, but your statement above is flat out wrong.

The US had no problem whatsoever killing millions of Japanese civilians via firebombing of Tokyo and Osaka, not to mention hundreds of thousands of Germans in Dresden and other places.

The only correct part of your statement was that the realistic alternatives in terms of US casualties were horrors of far greater magnitude. And even then there is historical evidence that the Japanese were already looking for ways to honorably surrender.

Equally there is considerable historical evidence that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to graphically demonstrate to the Soviet Union the new toy in the American tool box.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Itīs strange, but supposedly Iranian attacks in foreign countries have not produced a single death.
The bomb that blew a car was, by all means an "old ladieīs fart" as we call here low level noise making petards.
So, a country that produces ships, submarines, medium range missiles and puts satelites in orbit canīt make a bomb that just kills people in a car?
The other bomb was "found" before it went off.
And now, this strange story about an "Iranian" (with Iranian id.) blowing his own legs off.
Please, if this is not an intoxication campaign, I have never in my life seen one.
By the way: no proof exists that the two bombings of Jewish institutions in Argentina had anything to do with Iran.
And never forget: the only country in history who massacred hundred of thousands of innocent people with atomic weapons sofar is........

The US put man on the moon, invented the internet, and invented the transister yet it has also bungled things far worse at times than the 3 Stooges even could on a good day.

How does the ability to manufacture cars or rockets mitigate or prevent an intelligence/asymmetric operation failure?

As far as "massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent people" I suppose a far better solution to ending a global war could be found with 65+ years of hindsight?

Maybe folks who are sickened by the US use of nuclear weapons to end WWII should consider the intelligence estimates for casualties ranging from 1-2 million to over 10 million.

Exemplified by the fact that there's STILL circa 100,000 Purple Heart medals left unissued based on the massive numbers manufactured in anticipation of the need to invade Japan....and that's after the quarter million or so issued since the end of WWII.

Personally, I'm not sympathetic to your choice of words.

I tend to think that while the enormous loss of life was terribly tragic....losses would have been far more enormous and far more tragic had a land invasion of Japan as planned proceeded.

I find it incredibly hard to accept "massacre" when the realistic alternatives were horrors of far greater magnitude.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

You are correct. Your most likely scenario is idiotic.

+1

[gwynedd1]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Israel has been caught so many times false flagging they simply cannot be trusted, Iran notwithstanding.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Itīs strange, but supposedly Iranian attacks in foreign countries have not produced a single death.
The bomb that blew a car was, by all means an "old ladieīs fart" as we call here low level noise making petards.
So, a country that produces ships, submarines, medium range missiles and puts satelites in orbit canīt make a bomb that just kills people in a car?
The other bomb was "found" before it went off.
And now, this strange story about an "Iranian" (with Iranian id.) blowing his own legs off.
Please, if this is not an intoxication campaign, I have never in my life seen one.
By the way: no proof exists that the two bombings of Jewish institutions in Argentina had anything to do with Iran.
And never forget: the only country in history who massacred hundred of thousands of innocent people with atomic weapons sofar is........

All excellent points.

And I'm very impressed at the correct use of the obscure word "petard", nicely done.
I don't believe I've ever seen the word used outside the old cliche "hoist on his own petard".
.
.

[Master Shake]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Frankly this is idiotic.

If anything the most likely scenario is Israel, in a truly desperate situation, sets off its own bomb in a suburb of Tel Aviv in order to garner world sympathy.

You are correct. Your most likely scenario is idiotic.

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

The Munich lesson is one that was applied catastrophically in Iraq. I would think that on a site full of contrarians such as this one the instinct in the face of war drums would be to march in the opposite direction.

http://politics.salon.com/2012/02/14...ran/singleton/

[touchring]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

I think Obama wants Iran to make the first move.

Why doesn't the U.S. do a few air-strikes now, when it is easy to do them, and trash Tehran and a few other places in Iran? Let Iran be piles of ashes, and then the warning will go out to rest of the Islamists that their terrorist activities, atomic-bomb building, and asymetric warfare are not going to be tolerated any longer.

One would think after 9/11, the Americans would have kicked ass in the Middle East.

If America and Britain would have bombed some German cities and left them as piles of smoking debris in the late 1930s, the nazis would have been defeated before they had even begun. The German people would have thought twice about cheering the nazis and worshipping Hitler. The mistake of appeasement is that the policy encourages terrorism and ultimately warfare--- and an even worse warfare than might have occurred otherwise.

In the 1930s, the appeasement policies with the nazis encouraged the horrific world war which followed, immediately after. The appeasers, compromisers, and isolationists were interpretted by the nazis to be weak, worn-out and unwilling to fight.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Back on the topic of this thread.

I completely disagree with this being a false flag operation.

Israel and/or US and/or whoever have been killing Iranians for a good few years now.

People might be surprised to learn close to 100 Iranians have been killed/abducted/defected in the last 5 years who are directly or indirectly related to Iran's nuclear program(s)...scientists, the head of the Iranian Atomic Energy Org, IRGC commanders, Quds Force, etc...and these are just the KNOWN open source numbers.

It doesn't take a life insurance actuary to figure out something VERY strange is going on in Iran.

Iran has a much longer history of using asymmetric warfare to achieve it's foreign policy goals than conventional warfare....so it's easily within the realm of possibility to see Iran counter attacking Israel using some of the same means being used against them these past 5 years.

Iran has used it's Hezbullah proxy as well as direct means to achieve it's goals......Beirut Marine Barracks and Foreign Legion bombings......Argentina bombings...etc...and aggressive recent commentary from the Mullahs has supported that.

Some light may be shed on things shortly, as an Iranian has JUST been captured in Bangkok after having blown his own legs off in one of three explosions possibly meant to target Israelis.

Things are getting "weird" not just in Iran....but also Azerbaijan, India, and Thailand.....multiple open source incidents in Thailand.

When Israel has pursued aggressive asymmetric means to achieve it's foreign policy goals in the past...like post Black September Olympic Massacre...when Israel hunted down and killed those it felt responsible(including a terrible murder of an innocent in Norway).....there was a response to Israel in the form of a letter bomb campaign and other incidents.

All three countries Azerbaijan, India, and Thailand would not be considered non-permissive nations for the Iranians to operate from/in.....it's not like they would likely have Shin Bet/FBI crawling all over them by the dozens, neither country has the resources to counter Iranian efforts everywhere....and flights to/from each with Iran are frequent enough.....simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.

False flag operation? I seriously doubt it.

As a retired life insurance actuary, I agree completely.

[Southernguy]

Re: Israeli false flag attacks

Itīs strange, but supposedly Iranian attacks in foreign countries have not produced a single death.
The bomb that blew a car was, by all means an "old ladieīs fart" as we call here low level noise making petards.
So, a country that produces ships, submarines, medium range missiles and puts satelites in orbit canīt make a bomb that just kills people in a car?
The other bomb was "found" before it went off.
And now, this strange story about an "Iranian" (with Iranian id.) blowing his own legs off.
Please, if this is not an intoxication campaign, I have never in my life seen one.
By the way: no proof exists that the two bombings of Jewish institutions in Argentina had anything to do with Iran.
And never forget: the only country in history who massacred hundred of thousands of innocent people with atomic weapons sofar is........