Galbraith on Greece

[gnk]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

Greece was on the path of (self) destruction long ago. Assigning blame to the IMF and the EU is like solely blaming the doctor and ignoring how the patient irresponsibly lived decades earlier. The other lesson learned here is that non-viable countries will always be a target to more efficient, viable ones.

That said, "German" firms should not be looked at as foreigners - it's like saying New York banks are taking over the other states in the US. It's a Union, for gods sake, it's not there fully, quite yet - but that's where it's going.

As for the structure of the Euro and Germany's influence, that's another topic. That's monetary and fiscal policy on an EU - wide scale.

But, yes, austerity on inefficient/corrupt/dysfunctional country hurts. I do lament the ongoing loss of independent businesses - to be replaced by chains. However, prior to the crisis, many of these businesses as well as farmers got free money from the EU (grants/subsidies, and many still do) and most were notorious tax evaders. And many of the state owned assets were the realm of the political party in power - loaded with patronage and bloated workforces and administratively incompetent.

Just trying to be a little balanced here. As for the tax evasion - it is still rampant, unbelievably so, yet to be honest, compliance is slowly improving.

[GRG55]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

http://www.pappaspost.com/texas-prof...uction-greece/

Galbraith Op-ed in Boston Globe

Couldn't agree more. The German's abject fear of inflation combined with their seemingly Teutonic predilection for austerity have combined to forge one of the most destructive policy frameworks imaginable.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

http://www.pappaspost.com/texas-prof...uction-greece/

Galbraith Op-ed in Boston Globe

[Chris Coles]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

Holy crap won't help you when you eventually run out.

[shiny!]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

it won't really be the eotwawki until you've run out.

Holy crap, you're right! Not trading, not trading...

[Woodsman]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

...Go Greeks!

So classic it's Classical.



http://numismatics.org/Store/CoinHoardsX

[don]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

The Greeks are resourceful- good for them!

These are classic responses to failing times. In high school we were told when taxation exceeds a certain level people will hide their incomes (it was more innocent times). When inflation is ripping apart an economy, barter will spring up, like spontaneous generation. Go Greeks!

[jk]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

The Greeks are resourceful- good for them! It's a comfort to know that my EOTWAWKI stash of toilet paper might come in handy for barter someday.

it won't really be the eotwawki until you've run out.

[shiny!]

Re: Greece Reverts to the Classics

Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

By LIZ ALDERMANSEPT. 21, 2015


ATHENS — Thodoris Roussos stood in his butcher’s shop and pointed to a large white delivery truck at the curb. For months, he had put off replacing the tires, because Greece’s financial crisis had cut into business. But recently, he upgraded the van with a set of good wheels at a price that could not be beat.

“Normally, the tires cost 340 euros, but no money changed hands,” Mr. Roussos said, beaming. “I paid the guy in meat.”

As Greece grapples with a continued downturn, bartering is gaining traction at the margins of the economy, part of a collection of worrisome signs for Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras who was re-elected on Sunday.


Graphic artists are exchanging designs for olive oil. Accountants swap advice for office supplies. In the agricultural heartland and on the Greek islands, informal bartering, which has historically helped communities survive, has intensified as more people exchange fruits, vegetables, other crops, equipment, clothing and services.

“In Greece there’s a major liquidity problem,” said Mr. Roussos, who met the tire vendor and scores of new clients through an Athens-based online barter club, Tradenow, which created its own currency called tradepoints. “People are finding it more convenient to trade because money is not readily available.”

“The economy continues to deteriorate,” said Yiannis Deligiannis, the founder of Tradenow. “The capital controls were the last bullet to the head. People have to find other ways to make things work. We are offering them an alternative.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/bu...in-greece.html

The Greeks are resourceful- good for them! It's a comfort to know that my EOTWAWKI stash of toilet paper might come in handy for barter someday.

[don]

Greece Reverts to the Classics

Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

By LIZ ALDERMANSEPT. 21, 2015


ATHENS — Thodoris Roussos stood in his butcher’s shop and pointed to a large white delivery truck at the curb. For months, he had put off replacing the tires, because Greece’s financial crisis had cut into business. But recently, he upgraded the van with a set of good wheels at a price that could not be beat.

“Normally, the tires cost 340 euros, but no money changed hands,” Mr. Roussos said, beaming. “I paid the guy in meat.”

As Greece grapples with a continued downturn, bartering is gaining traction at the margins of the economy, part of a collection of worrisome signs for Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras who was re-elected on Sunday.


Graphic artists are exchanging designs for olive oil. Accountants swap advice for office supplies. In the agricultural heartland and on the Greek islands, informal bartering, which has historically helped communities survive, has intensified as more people exchange fruits, vegetables, other crops, equipment, clothing and services.

“In Greece there’s a major liquidity problem,” said Mr. Roussos, who met the tire vendor and scores of new clients through an Athens-based online barter club, Tradenow, which created its own currency called tradepoints. “People are finding it more convenient to trade because money is not readily available.”

“The economy continues to deteriorate,” said Yiannis Deligiannis, the founder of Tradenow. “The capital controls were the last bullet to the head. People have to find other ways to make things work. We are offering them an alternative.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/bu...in-greece.html

[Chris Coles]

Re: Galbraith on Greece

As I've said, he doesn't appear to me to be evil, though he does seem a bit naive, and perhaps misguided, in trying to transfer his academic idealism directly into the real world. Remember that he's only lept from being an obscure academic (by his own description) to the center of European politics, just a matter of months ago. That's a pretty big change of gears to make, especially without a clutch.

You obviously have not been following his line of thinking as his, (and Stuart Holland's) Modest Proposal for Europe has been laid down since 2010 http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/euro-crisis/modest-proposal/ that link for a 2013 review.

Again the Modest Proposal for Europe received the backing of five retired European Prime Ministers.

As for my own perception, I have long been aware of Scandinavian socialism. The basis for my own view stems from a belief that government driven socialist economies do not fully address the need for an underlying free enterprise economy to blossom; without and apart from government.

None of us has all the answers; but the debate rolls forward. As I see it, it is not a matter of individual intellectual prowess; more a matter of classic innovation, where every mistake closes one door, while yet another opens in it's place.

You do seem to be able to easily find fault with others; can you now deliver your own proposed solution, so that we can judge that as your own input?

Certainly, Varoufakis has been doing his best to deliver positive proposals for at least the last half decade; where are yours?

[astonas]

Re: Galbraith on Greece

From what I can glean from his recent utterances; he recognises that the "Left wing" debate must change direction. That the origins of socialism were misplaced by forms of thinking that are today discredited and need to be revised. In which case, in a very real sense, you are correct; he is not addressing the problems of Greece; instead, he has raised the debate above present problems, to address the need for completely new thinking about the intellectual foundations of socialism.

While Varoufakis is certainly changing focus to a more international view, I'm not sure exactly what in his statements addresses "the need for completely new thinking about the intellectual foundations of socialism." The more international flavor of socialism is hardly something new. If anything, it represents the original form of that political philosophy, and Varoufakis appears to me to be preaching a "back to basics" version, in which he appears to actively avoid or even criticize the fresher ideas available for consideration. I certainly haven't heard a new one concept from him yet (though if a good example is pointed out to me, I'd be happy to acknowledge my misunderstanding).

As I've said, he doesn't appear to me to be evil, though he does seem a bit naive, and perhaps misguided, in trying to transfer his academic idealism directly into the real world. Remember that he's only lept from being an obscure academic (by his own description) to the center of European politics, just a matter of months ago. That's a pretty big change of gears to make, especially without a clutch.

Today, socialism is discredited due to the lack of a sensible economic platform. That must change if socialism is to have any future. That is a profound change in thinking that must be recognised and encouraged.

I would perhaps use slightly different wording, though I'm not sure if it captures the same message you intend: Socialism appears discredited from certain self-serving political vantage points, because the term remains closely associated in many minds with spectacular (Soviet-era) failures that were conducted under that banner.

But to say that Scandinavia, which is arguably more proximate to "socialism" than the totalitarian communist failed states ever were, is "discredited due to a lack of sensible economic thinking" just doesn't pass the smell test.

There isn't a lack of economic thinking about how to make modern socialist democracies (present-day "socialism") economically strong. There's just a fairly broad ignorance in the popular press of the of this thinking, which already exists. (It serves no convenient or profitable narrative to discuss it, and so it simply never comes up. And thus the public clings to the false conflation of "socialism" with "Soviet Russia" like a souvenir of times past, just another decrepit relic of the Cold War.)

Perhaps what irks me most about Varoufakis is that while he appears well-intentioned, he is actually trained as an academic economist, so he has to be aware of this literature's existence, even if he doesn't embrace it. And thus, one is left wondering why he keeps pretending it doesn't exist at all.

Why, in other words, does he appear to be insisting on returning to a form of socialism more reminiscent of the old failed states than the modern successful ones, in spite of the abundant evidence that Scandinavia appears to be working much better today than the Soviet Union ever did. Whenever people point out to him anything that Greece might learn from socialism's success stories, he responds with dismissive hostility.

If this is due to ignorance, it represents a considerable failure of rigor in a person with his background. If due to idealism, then a profound lack of pragmatism.

I certainly respect Varoufakis' passion to make the world a better place, but I still question whether he is on sufficiently firm intellectual or practical ground to succeed in his mission. There are incongruences, still unexplained, that trouble me greatly.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Galbraith on Greece

This is Greece. It is in its own category. It has many other problems that also need to be addressed, yet Varoufakis rarely discusses these issues and how they affect the economy.

(Google translate does a decent job)

From what I can glean from his recent utterances; he recognises that the "Left wing" debate must change direction. That the origins of socialism were misplaced by forms of thinking that are today discredited and need to be revised. In which case, in a very real sense, you are correct; he is not addressing the problems of Greece; instead, he has raised the debate above present problems, to address the need for completely new thinking about the intellectual foundations of socialism.

Today, socialism is discredited due to the lack of a sensible economic platform. That must change if socialism is to have any future. That is a profound change in thinking that must be recognised and encouraged.

[gnk]

Re: Galbraith on Greece

This is Greece. It is in its own category. It has many other problems that also need to be addressed, yet Varoufakis rarely discusses these issues and how they affect the economy.

(Google translate does a decent job)

[Chris Coles]

Re: Galbraith on Greece

Double post deleted