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  • Defined Contribution Plans

    The phrase "Defined Contribution Plan" has heretofore been utilized as a soulless, boring euphemism for a 401(k) style plan. In other words, rather than a pension "Defined Benefit Plan," employees are asked to take on the risk of investing for their own retirements. In true other words, employees are paying money without receiving a defined benefit. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say.

    But, it's very profitable for FIRE. And it's mitigates risk for employers. So the "Defined Contribution Plan" won out. Within 30 years, pensions were all but dead. And even though anyone who looks can see the retirement calamity coming for 401(k) holders, the plan still remains popular.

    30 years. It only took 30 years to kill the "Defined Benefit Plan." It was the only plan where you knew what you were getting for your money.

    ZIRP facilitated this heavily by crashing pension funds (and 401(ks)). But it was already underway.



    Well, what if we applied this idea to healthcare?

    Right now most middle-class American employees have "Defined Benefit Plans." They pay for health insurance as part of their "total compensation packages" and receive a plan with a defined benefit and deductible etc. It's opaque, to be sure, but there's a defined benefit and usually a contract somewhere that spells out the terms of the plan. But what if we shifted them to "Defined Contribution Plans"? In this scenario, employers would set aside a lump of money just like a 401(k) and employees would have to shop and figure out and buy whatever they could get with it. This way here, the risk of health inflation is pushed to the employee. Rather than control costs, unpayable medical bills would more than likely become more common for the American worker.

    In true other words, employees are paying money again without receiving a defined benefit. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say.

    But it's looking more and more like that graph up above will apply to health benefits as well as retirement funds. And when it does, will the middle class be able to deal with catastrophic bills? With networth already imploding, it certainly doesn't look like middle class households will be able to take this new risk off the backs of employers without going insolvent.



    So now, on to the news:

    Survey: Half Of Employers Will Stop Offering Health Coverage, Give Workers Cash For Plans Instead



    By MATTHEW STURDEVANT, msturdevant@courant.comThe Hartford Courant8:57 p.m. EDT, June 19, 2012


    A new J.D. Power and Associates survey says nearly half of employers plan to change the way they provide health insurance to workers — offering them a set amount of cash to buy their own plan rather than providing coverage and charging employees a portion of the premiums.


    The change would happen as states set up health exchanges, which are marketplaces for individuals and small groups to buy coverage, required under federal health care reform.


    Many observers say health exchanges, in various forms across the states, will happen even if the U.S. Supreme Court strikes down the so-called individual mandate for coverage in a ruling expected in the coming days. That means a move away from employer-based health coverage, long discussed, could be a trend that gains speed over the next few years.


    Health insurers, however, said Tuesday it's unlikely that employers will veer away from employer-based health care, and even J.D. Power's senior director for health care, Rick Millard, advised caution in interpreting the survey results.


    J.D. Power found that 47 percent of 6,579 employers surveyed say they "definitely will" or "probably will" switch to a "defined contribution" model within a private exchange — meaning they would offer employees a set amount of cash to go out and buy coverage on their own.


    The study — which rated Aetna highest in employer satisfaction among third-party administrators for self-funded plans, typically at larger companies — also found that some employers "may consider eliminating coverage altogether."


    "As the landscape of health care changes, employers face many choices in how to best serve their employees with competitive coverage at affordable costs," Millard said. "While some reports have predicted that a large number of employers might stop offering coverage, [other] study findings indicate that a large majority won't walk away from offering coverage to their employees."


    Still, the health exchanges, which would be available by 2014 under the reform act, along with employers' limiting how much they pay for rising health care costs, could make so-called "defined contribution" plans attractive to businesses.


    The results of the J.D. Power survey included a mix of self-funded insurers, 42 percent of whom said they would consider a defined-contribution plan, and fully funded insurers, 51 percent of whom said they might switch, Millard said. Self-funded plans are generally larger employers that take on the risk and pay insurers to run the plans; fully funded employers are generally smaller companies.


    The eagerness of employers to try something new might just be frustration with a tumultuous health care environment with rising prices, deeply divided political leadership, a Supreme Court decision that might spike the legislation passed two years ago, and state laws that vary across the U.S.


    As unemployment subsides and companies must compete for employees, health insurance, like any other benefit, becomes a tool for recruitment.


    "I think in the main, employers who provide health insurance do it because they want to," said Keith Stover, a lobbyist and spokesman for Connecticut Association of Health Plans, an insurance trade group. "Whether you're a sophisticated person or an unsophisticated person, given all of the back and forth and push and pull and court cases and politics and rhetoric, what would you be saying? 'I'm going to look at everything.' "


    The consumer group Families USA has a different take, saying that fewer small- and medium-sized employers have been offering health insurance to their workers for at least 10 years, and the trend has been accelerating.


    "The Affordable Care Act is actually, in its intent and some of its provisions, designed to stabilize that decline in offers of employer-based coverage," said Kathleen Stoll, deputy executive director at Families USA.


    Employers may be thinking that rather than not offering coverage, they might offer cash that, when combined with a premium tax credit made available in federal reform, would afford a worker roughly the same amount of coverage as an employer-based health plan, Stoll said.


    Employers and employees surveyed by J.D. Power said their biggest concern with a health plan was the price, not the service. Employers, in general, view fees by doctors and hospitals as the reason for rising health care costs, while employees most frequently believe health insurance companies' administrative costs are driving up costs.


    UnitedHealthcare spokesman Daryl Richard said, "from UnitedHealthcare's perspective, we continue to hear strong interest from the employers we serve in terms of their desire to offer coverage to their employees."


    Said Cigna Corp. spokesman Jon Sandberg: "There have been many studies and projections on this topic. Most have concluded employers plan to maintain employer-sponsored insurance as exchanges become part of the health care system. We talk to our clients every day to help them develop innovative plans to maintain a healthy and productive workforce, and this survey does not coincide with what we are hearing in the field."



    Interestingly, Peter Orszag was going on about this about a year ago:

    Defined Contributions Define Health-Care Future: Peter Orszag





    Q



    Over the next decade, we are likely to see a shift in health insurance in the U.S.: So-called defined-contribution plans will gradually take over the market, shifting the residual risk of incurring high health-care costs from employers to workers.


    The market today is dominated by “defined-benefit” plans, under which companies determine a set of health-insurance benefits that are provided for employees. These will gradually be replaced by defined-contribution plans, under which companies pay a fixed amount, and employees use the money to buy or help pay for insurance they choose themselves.


    The defined-contribution concept is already familiar to most American workers through their retirement benefits. Over the past two decades, company retirement programs have moved decisively away from defined-benefit plans, in which workers are paid a given amount of retirement income, and toward defined- contribution 401(k) plans, in which risks -- from fluctuating financial markets, for example -- are borne by workers.The fundamental driver of this shift is the effort by American businesses to reduce their exposure to health-care costs. But the recent health-care-reform law may accelerate the shift.


    In 1985, a total of 89 of the Fortune 100 companies offered their new hires a traditional defined-benefit pension plan, and just 10 of them offered only a defined-contribution plan. Today, only 13 of the Fortune 100 companies offer a traditional defined-benefit plan, and 70 offer only a defined-contribution plan.


    Defined-Contribution Plans


    The movement toward defined-contribution plans for health insurance is, in some ways, similar to the one that occurred for pensions, as Kenneth L. Sperling and Oren M. Shapira explained in an article earlier this year. The pension shift occurred in a series of stages: First, the traditional defined-benefit plan was redesigned. Then a hybrid approach was introduced (the cash- balance plan). Finally, defined-benefit plans were frozen.


    The change in health insurance is already well under way in coverage for retirees. In the early 1990s, in response to accounting changes and rising costs, companies began to re- evaluate retiree health plans, and some capped the amount they were willing to pay at a multiple of existing costs. Over time, as those limits were reached, most companies declined to raise them, thereby effectively creating defined-contribution retiree health-insurance plans, with the company’s contribution set by the cap. Exchanges have been created to allow retirees to use these employer contributions to purchase their own health insurance.


    For current workers, the precursor to a defined- contribution approach is the “consumer-driven” health plan. This typically has higher deductibles and co-payments than a traditional plan has, and it is often tied to a health savings account. It typically still provides generous insurance for catastrophic cases.


    The share of workers enrolled in such plans remains quite low but is expanding rapidly. A recent survey of large companies found that, in 2012, almost three-quarters will offer consumer- driven health-insurance plans.


    The natural next step will be for employers to strictly limit their health-insurance contributions to a set amount of money that workers could use to buy insurance. Companies will thus eliminate their exposure to unexpectedly high health-care costs.


    Some insurers are already anticipating the shift. Bloom Health Corp. will begin offering defined-contribution exchanges in 2012. Bloom, based in Minneapolis describes itself as “a leader in the defined-contribution health benefits marketplace,” and says it is “committed to assisting employers of all sizes move toward an employer-sponsored system that has effective cost predictability for employers and increased choice and personalization for employees.” In September, the company announced that Health Care Service Corp., Blue Cross Blue Shield ofMichigan and WellPoint (WLP) Inc. had purchased a majority of its equity.


    Health-Care Reform


    The inevitable transition to defined-contribution health insurance may get a little push from the new health-care-reform law. Indeed, the legislation may have a larger impact on the type of health-insurance plan that employers offer than on their decision about whether to drop health-care benefits altogether.


    A misleading survey by McKinsey & Co. has suggested the potential for huge declines in employer-based health insurance. But projections from the Congressional Budget Office and other respected researchers generally point to only a modest net decrease. And the experience to date in Massachusetts, which has a health-care law similar to the Affordable Care Act, is consistent with this prediction. (All such estimates are highly uncertain, and what actually happens will probably depend, in no small measure, on herd behavior. Employer surveys indicate that most companies will consider dropping their health plans only if other firms do.)


    If most employers do retain their health plans, the state insurance exchanges created under the new federal health-care law will make the basic idea of a defined-contribution health plan more prevalent, and thus may speed its adoption. The regulations written to carry out the new law will determine how things play out. If defined-contribution plans that are sufficiently generous count as employer-based coverage -- as is generally expected -- the trend toward such plans will probably accelerate.


    Whether this turns out to be a good thing will depend in no small part on whether the defined-contribution model helps to constrain overall health-care costs. There’s little point (and much potential harm in terms of risk-sharing) in having individuals, rather than businesses, take on the responsibility of paying for health care if there is no change in the total cost.


    I have written elsewhere that although consumer-driven plans could help somewhat, they are unlikely to be a crucial step toward reducing health-care spending over the long term. The evidence to date, with a few exceptions, suggests that such plans reduce costs only modestly. After all, the majority of costs come from the expensive cases that are still generously insured by catastrophic-care provisions in consumer-driven plans.


    Full-blown defined-contribution plans could perhaps generate better results, though it will still be crucial to get doctors and other providers to deliver more efficient care especially for high-cost cases.


    In any case, the bottom line is that a shift toward defined-contribution plans seems likely. I’d be willing to bet $1 that most large U.S. employer health-care offerings in 2020 will be defined-contribution plans. Any takers?


    (Peter Orszag is vice chairman of global banking at Citigroup Inc. and a former director of the Office of Management and Budget in the Obama administration. The opinions expressed are his own.)


    To contact the writer of this article: Peter Orszag at orszagbloomberg@gmail.com
    If enacted across the board, this will be the biggest shift in healthcare in 30 years. It will be another serious blow to an already beleaguered middle class. Make no mistake, they're already planning to stiff you with the bill.

    The maddening thing is that nothing is being done to actually fix our broken, opaque, backwards, insurance-saturated, shamefully wasteful healthcare system. Let me throw up some charts again to push home the point of just how much the healthcare system has sucked oxygen out of the American economy:

    Federal Government Spending Over Time - 23.1% is now healthcare spending. This is enough to provide universal coverage to everyone in every other first world country. And the costs are growing faster than in any other first world country. There's an additional 30% of all 50 state's budgets that goes towards the other half of Medicaid too that's not shown on this chart:



    Personal Spending - This Is Only Out of Pocket for the Median Payer And Does Not Include What Employers Pay Towards Healthcare. Personal Expenditures More than Double Even with Insurance. Employers Pay an Additional 6.6% for individuals and a whopping 18.7% for families:



    We spend an Obama Stimulus every year more than the next highest spending country on healthcare costs for worse results.

    Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post

    Medicare is ruining the Federal Budget. Medicaid is ruining all states' budgets. Health insurance is ruining employers' and employees' budgets. At this point we have lost 5-6% of our cumulative national wealth per year chasing some healthcare fantasy in the US. That's about one Obama Stimulus per year. Wasted. Health outcomes are no better.

    Think about that.

    A stimulus every year.

    $14TGDP * 5% = $700B.

    A stimulus every year.

    Just to avoid the single payer solution that even Mexico is putting in place.

    Every other nation has a path to do it cheaper. There are many choices to copy. This should be a no-brainer.

    When will the country wake up, I wonder? When it is 2 stimuluses per year? Three? Four? The total cost is doubling every 10 years. We'll get there within many of our lifetimes should we not end the "insurance" charade.




    And now the average citizen will be asked to navigate complicated, high deductible, likely not-even-quite-catastrophic healthcare plans, the likes of which most, if not all, will not understand. After all, it is clear that the working class in general didn't undertand mutual funds when they got thrust into them. It was clear they didn't understand housing bubbles. They have lost 40% of their net worth over five years. Clearly the median American doesn't understand the game and is getting screwed by it. How should we expect them not to have catastrophic health bills when left to their own devices? How many small business owners here at iTulip who have had to buy their own plans ran into horror stories? Imagine some teenage kid trying to figure this out at his/her first job.

    Ultimately, it's nothing more than another sham. But it will be very, very profitable for the health insurance companies. And it will take some risk off employers. So it will happen.

    I just wonder, how much more blood can be squeezed from the middle class stone?


    What else can we make a "defined contribution" to without knowing what we'll receive for our money?

    Imagine a world of "defined contribution" haircuts, where you go in, pay for a haircut, and then maybe get half of your head trimmed, depending on how many customers came through that day and how much the hairdresser owed on a car loan. The details would all be spelled out in size 7 font on a piece of tissue paper in incomprehensible legalese.

    Or we could have "defined contribution" funerals. Just pay $5,000 bucks and maybe a priest will show up.


    First they came for the pensions,

    and I didn't speak out because I didn't have a pension.

    Then they came for the unions,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't in a union.

    Then they came for health care,
    and I didn't speak out because I didn't have a health plan.

    How long until they come for you?




    Last edited by dcarrigg; June 21, 2012, 08:41 AM. Reason: Orszag has an "s" in it.

  • #2
    Re: Defined Contribution Plans

    WHOOO!!! dc, havent even read it all yet, but must say: This has got to be One of Your Best.
    (and eye _will_ read every word of it, and will most likely agree with _most_ of it)

    "...How long until they come for you?..."

    hell - i'm ready, GOFER IT - lettem come - i'd rather eat BUGS n DIRT for dinner than knuckle under for another GD day, while the fed reserve STEALS OUR SAVINGS right out of our bank accounts to pay for The Bailout of the TBTF (or JAIL) the criminal class that has BOUGHT OFF our whole government !!!!
    the problems WE face are a result of what has happened in the beltway, every state capitol, as well as
    LOWER MANHATTAN, aka: GROUND ZERO
    and at some point, i agree with bill maher (but NOT for the reason that caused him to lose fans, err.. uhh.. i mean sponsors ) and osama!

    i mean, when MEMBERS OF CONGRESS GET AWAY WITH THIS sh-eye-T

    and former state governors, who call em OUT on it

    and all the while the Dept of 'justice' IGNORES IT ???

    heh.... all i can say is: WHAT WOULD THE GUY FROM BOSTON SAY ???

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Defined Contribution Plans

      Terrific eye opening post, Dcarrigg.

      I'm lucky enough to work at a large company that is self funded. A good friend just left here and joined one of our competitors that isn't self funded, and he says out of pocket is about 50% higher.

      Our company recently started a requirement to complete a health survey that will be a requirement for qualifying for lower out of pocket costs (ie, the increase next year will not be as large as people who don't participate in the survey). So even on the self funded side, we expect to see changes in thinking of how the program is run.

      The premise you present is really "FIRE-like".....so I'd expect it to be a trend to strong to be reversed.
      Last edited by wayiwalk; June 21, 2012, 07:47 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Defined Contribution Plans

        +1 Beautifully done. 401k, which began as a CEO-level program, is a great way to follow how FIRE discards, only to adjust, trim and tweak, whatever comes along that will ramp up rentier returns.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Defined Contribution Plans

          Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
          ...employees are asked to take on the risk of investing for their own retirements.
          Who better to plan for your retirement than yourself? Look at the reverse situation: employees are asked to take on the risk of letting someone else control their retirement funds.
          In true other words, employees are paying money without receiving a defined benefit. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say.
          What a ridiculously dramatic and misleading way of describing the situation.

          The money goes into their own account. Usually the employer puts money in there also. What they get for their money is an account with money in it. Admittedly the financial system where they have to earn interest is a hazard itself but that isn't a problem with the idea of defined contributions. That's a problem with the financial system and the insane tax code that governs retirement plans.

          Right now most middle-class American employees have "Defined Benefit Plans." They pay for health insurance as part of their "total compensation packages" and receive a plan with a defined benefit and deductible etc. It's opaque, to be sure, but there's a defined benefit and usually a contract somewhere that spells out the terms of the plan. But what if we shifted them to "Defined Contribution Plans"? In this scenario, employers would set aside a lump of money just like a 401(k) and employees would have to shop and figure out and buy whatever they could get with it. This way here, the risk of health inflation is pushed to the employee. Rather than control costs, unpayable medical bills would more than likely become more common for the American worker.

          In true other words, employees are paying money again without receiving a defined benefit. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say.


          And the drama continues. I don't know how someone could read this and think "oh that makes sense" unless they were already convinced of the end point anyway and this just provided reassurance for their views.

          What they buy will most likely be health insurance. With the same "defined benefit plans" that currently exist.

          Do you have the same dramatic attitude towards employee's car insurance? Think of that whole scam: Employers just give people money and expect them to shop and figure out and buy whatever they could get with it. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say. The risk of auto repair inflation is pushed to the employee.

          dcarrigg: have you ever been put in the position of deciding what one (or maybe 2) health insurance plans should be provided by your company? Have you ever had to evaluate plans and say: Plan A is good for a young person with few health problems while Plan B is better for someone who has an expensive prescription each month. And then decide: I'm going to get the plan the benefits person X?

          I have. And it makes no sense and it's not fair to me or the people who don't get a say in what plan they get.

          I know the system is broken. The insurance companies have bought government protection unlike any other industry of which I'm aware. There's a long list of other problems. But to blame employers for not wanting to make these types of decisions is misguided.

          Maybe you want to work for a company that instead of paying you simply provides the house, car, food, clothes, insurance etc that they think will best suit their median employee. I sure don't.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Defined Contribution Plans

            So I guess we are supposed to trust the U.S. government which has borrowed the entire social security trust fund, and issued IOUs from the soon to be bankrupt U.S. Treasury? There is no lockbox. Or take a look at the financial solvency of Medicare.

            The current system isn't working, but I certainly don't trust the proposed alternative either.

            Balanced accounts have done well over a long period of time, which is what a pension is supposed to invest in. Why give ownership to a company that can play games with it or a governement that does the same?

            The key solution is to narrow the choices where the employee can't self destruct the assets, but allow the employee to own the assets. Private accounts with protections are still the best alternative, but politically difficult to do.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Defined Contribution Plans

              Originally posted by DSpencer
              Who better to plan for your retirement than yourself?
              I've written on this before: if you're not at least moderately wealthy, it is pretty much impossible to plan for your retirement yourself.

              There simply are far too many variables an individual must be prepared for, as well as a long road lined with pit traps they must traverse to even get to retirement.

              The entire point of having health insurance, for example, is to equalize out the variability any individual experiences. Why should retirement be so much different?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                Originally posted by DSpencer View Post
                Who better to plan for your retirement than yourself? Look at the reverse situation: employees are asked to take on the risk of letting someone else control their retirement funds.


                The median worker is notoriously bad at figuring out mutual fund investments. Market volatility leads to a "luck of the draw" at time of retirement. Defined contribution plans employer shares have not historically kept up with inflation. The result is that the younger an American is, the less likely they are to have a secure retirement. This is due to the shift from defined benefit to defined contribution.







                What a ridiculously dramatic and misleading way of describing the situation.

                The money goes into their own account. Usually the employer puts money in there also. What they get for their money is an account with money in it. Admittedly the financial system where they have to earn interest is a hazard itself but that isn't a problem with the idea of defined contributions. That's a problem with the financial system and the insane tax code that governs retirement plans.
                The tax code is insane. The financial system is insane. How exactly is an administrative assistant or a hazmat disposer supposed to figure this stuff out? Part of the "miracle of specialization" is that we specialize. Many people have skills that are important, such as machinists, but they do not necessarily have the skills to figure out the tax code etc.






                And the drama continues. I don't know how someone could read this and think "oh that makes sense" unless they were already convinced of the end point anyway and this just provided reassurance for their views.

                What they buy will most likely be health insurance. With the same "defined benefit plans" that currently exist.
                See, employers can buy insurance at discounted rates. Just like anyone else in a bulk market. They can bond and insure themselves too. Individuals cannot. Nor do individuals have benefit specialists. The result is that many individuals will be duped and sucked into high-fee scenarios just like they were with mutual funds. The whole point of the employer shifting to defined contributions is to lower the employers' costs. So the amount they give will not keep up with inflation. Over time, the employee will purchase worse and worse plans and be in worse and worse financial shape. This is what happened with 401(k)s. I see no reason to expect a different outcome.

                When we shift risk onto individuals, individuals assume greater risk. When we shift risk onto individuals for which there can be no reward, individuals will lose money.

                Do you have the same dramatic attitude towards employee's car insurance? Think of that whole scam: Employers just give people money and expect them to shop and figure out and buy whatever they could get with it. They just get to pay. And who knows what they'll get for their money? No one can say. The risk of auto repair inflation is pushed to the employee.
                The government does not provide tax benefits to insurers for benefiting their employees in specialized accounts for car insurance as they do for health insurance. I do think it is somewhat of a scam that the government mandates its purchase, however. Healthcare in any other country is a right. Car insurance is not. If labor could move as freely as capital...well...

                dcarrigg: have you ever been put in the position of deciding what one (or maybe 2) health insurance plans should be provided by your company? Have you ever had to evaluate plans and say: Plan A is good for a young person with few health problems while Plan B is better for someone who has an expensive prescription each month. And then decide: I'm going to get the plan the benefits person X?


                No. Of the corporation and two LLCs I have been responsible for, none were big enough to provide health benefits.

                I have. And it makes no sense and it's not fair to me or the people who don't get a say in what plan they get.


                They can always find other employment. But what happens when all employers no longer provide coverage? As long as there's a mandate (which may be struck down), individuals will be forced into buying bad plans. Without a mandate? Individuals with jobs that provide defined contributions will be forced into buying bad plans. Because like a 401(k), they will not have the option of keeping the funds themselves. They will have to hand them over to an insurance company. And who knows what they get?

                I know the system is broken. The insurance companies have bought government protection unlike any other industry of which I'm aware. There's a long list of other problems. But to blame employers for not wanting to make these types of decisions is misguided.


                Why were employers happy to make these types of decisions for decades? What has changed? Who benefits? Who loses?

                Maybe you want to work for a company that instead of paying you simply provides the house, car, food, clothes, insurance etc that they think will best suit their median employee. I sure don't.


                Of course not. But if you're not giving out a defined benefit, then why not give out cash?

                Give me the 401(k) money and the match as cash then. Don't force me into a mutual fund company. And give me the health insurance money as cash. And force transparent global rates for medical services. And force easy-to-understand, transparent health insurance plans.

                The way this is set up now, all defined contributions do is force individuals to buy opaque FIRE products they do not understand.

                dspencer, I believe this may be a case where either the pure socialist model or the pure libertarian model (with transparent, easy-to-understand pricing and plans) will work better than the current hybrid model.

                The defined contribution model is nothing short of kleptocratic. And the middle class will continue to lose networth because of it.

                The American worker is in a worse spot that he/she has been in decades. This is empirically true and only a liar could argue. I fear this will only worsten the pain.
                Last edited by dcarrigg; June 21, 2012, 10:28 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                  More pandering to the I in FIRE will not help. Why do we even need them? They take a cut off the top of every transaction, causing doctors and hospitals to raise their rates. More bloated inefficient government involvement won't help, either.

                  When I had thyroid surgery a couple of years ago I had to pay thousands in deductibles and copays for an outpatient procedure. Nobody could tell me ahead of time what everything was going to cost. The surgeon himself only got $700 for a surgery that took almost three hours. I would rather have paid him $700 directly, as well as the hospital, lab, etc. My insurance just went up another 25% this year. To keep my premiums more or less the same I now have to pay 100% out of pocket for the first $4000 annual expenses before the insurance kicks in.

                  What I'd like is a way to pay my doctors and hospital directly for their services- pay them the same amount that they get from insurance companies or Medicare for any given service. I'd be willing to pay a monthly or annual fee to the hospital that would cover catastrophic events. The coverage could be transferred to another hospital if I got sick while out of town. I think medical fees would fall a great deal if the insurance companies were out of the equation, as people start shopping for the best deals among providers. You would see medical providers outdoing each other to offer the lowest rates in order to attract customers.

                  Could this work?

                  Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                    Don't be to hard on DC, but I do kind of agree with you.

                    I know 401Ks are generating too much money for wall street, but pension plans have their own warts.
                    1)I don't know what the costs of running the pension plans are. How much wall street skimming is there in these? What back room deals
                    are there between slick wall street types, and the pension boards. There have been lots of stories of pensions buying derivative crap that has blown up.
                    2) pensiosn are a great way for both private and public pensions to over promise, and under deliver.
                    3) I have been layed off from two companies in my past with pensions before I was vested. 7 years of work done no retirement.
                    One company I worked for went BK and put the pensions into the pensions guarantee program. If you were a low wage worker bee you are ok,
                    If you were a highly paid employee, like and accountant, it, lawer, mechanic, pilot etc. your big juicy pension got a hair cut.

                    If 401Ks had some changes I think they could be improved.
                    1) Expand asset classes to allow holding of PMs, treasuries, stocks, and cash equivalents. In a fortune 500 company, I have no options for treasuries or PMs
                    there are no conservative stock indexes such as utilities, or dividend stocks, or consumer staples. Everything is highly correlated with dow, s&P
                    2) Allow for large liquidations. I'm eligable to borrow 50K but that is it.
                    3) Allow only low cost index funds, or maybe active funds if they are under some cost .50% ??
                    4) I hate big brother stuff, but maybe ... put ranges on asset classes, so people aren't wiped out.

                    Regarding health insurance in this respect.
                    It might be better for a company to increase my paycheck by their health care amount under the following stipulations, which I doubt will never happen.
                    1) All health costs are tax deductable above a very low income cap. Say 1-2% of AGI. Instead of 7% now.
                    2) Somehow you cannot be denied coverage if you are willing to pay for it. This is hard to figure out how to do.
                    3) Costs are transparent. If there is any doubt, a web site is set up where you put in provider, your name, procedure code, diaganostic code and carrier, and bam
                    costs pop right out instantly. You know what is covered and what is not. no surprise.
                    4) Emergency care is always covered. You can't make a decision when you're unconsious on a gurney.
                    5) Plans are very simple there are no more networks etc. If you go to a hospital insurance pays x%, doctor x%, perscription drug x% etc.
                    no loop holes etc.

                    I have had really crummy plans from employers in the past. (Not my current employer). With the current employer sponsored plan, you don't have a choice really.
                    Either get the crummy plans offered for 2000 in premiums, or get the plan you want and pay 10000 in premiums if you get your own. I'm sure a lot of plans are
                    agreed upon by big wigs at the golf course after a few drinks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                      It's certainly easy to criticize 401k's 'replacing' defined benefit plans, but maybe the problem is simpler and bigger - retirement as a concept is not workable over the long run at the scale of the entire population. Perhaps the expectation is just unrealistic that everyone can work for say 45 years (20 - 65) and then live comfortably for 20 years, without having saved a LOT during those 45 years.
                      In the absence of the 'miracle' of compound interest, the math is pretty simple - it requires saving nearly 50% of one's income over his entire working life.
                      So bring some compound interest into the equation. It helps a lot. But is it realistic for the savings of the entire population to achieve 8% returns when the economy can only grow say 3 or 4% (and that's without taking into account Peak Everything). Where is all that 'wealth' to support those returns supposed to come from? I don't think it is realistic, and it's not the FED's fault. Its reality.

                      What about the SS - well we see how that's working out. Its not a savings program its a transfer program and it only works while there is a growing population.

                      I was looking forward to a long and peaceful retirement (I'm in my 40's) but I don't think its gonna happen, and its no one's fault. Its just (economic) physics.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                        Originally posted by leegs View Post
                        It's certainly easy to criticize 401k's 'replacing' defined benefit plans, but maybe the problem is simpler and bigger - retirement as a concept is not workable over the long run at the scale of the entire population. Perhaps the expectation is just unrealistic that everyone can work for say 45 years (20 - 65) and then live comfortably for 20 years, without having saved a LOT during those 45 years.
                        In the absence of the 'miracle' of compound interest, the math is pretty simple - it requires saving nearly 50% of one's income over his entire working life.
                        So bring some compound interest into the equation. It helps a lot. But is it realistic for the savings of the entire population to achieve 8% returns when the economy can only grow say 3 or 4% (and that's without taking into account Peak Everything). Where is all that 'wealth' to support those returns supposed to come from? I don't think it is realistic, and it's not the FED's fault. Its reality.

                        What about the SS - well we see how that's working out. Its not a savings program its a transfer program and it only works while there is a growing population.

                        I was looking forward to a long and peaceful retirement (I'm in my 40's) but I don't think its gonna happen, and its no one's fault. Its just (economic) physics.
                        leegs, an 8% return makes sense when the federal funds rate is 8%. The expected return and benefit could easily be pegged to the federal funds rate and still provide a defined benefit in relation to inflation, as determined by the rate. Pension funds could invest in treasuries.

                        In practice, this is why SS has fared better than pension funds and 401(k)s. People argue about its solvency, but in this recession, when compared with other investment vehicles, the fund has done remarkably well. The iTulip plan itself has pointed to treasuries.

                        Pensions created in a high-interest environment promised more than they could deliver not because of unscrupulous practices, but because an 8% return in an 8% inflation environment is flat and normal. When ZIRP kicks in, it all goes to hell.

                        But rather than adjust pension funds to match the federal funds rate, workers get stuck in the mutual fund morass. And mutual fund companies benefit. And employers can pay out less and/or take less market risk. Even though employers could easily tie funds to the federal funds rate and deliver benefits based on that to mitigate risk. But this is not what happened. The stock market bulls won out. And the employees lose.

                        I never made the argument that all pensions are reasonable. Clearly they are not. But 401(k)s are failing too. And any rational measure shows this. The middle class needs a lifeline now more than ever. Saddling them with risk and employer mandates to buy products they don't understand or products they don't want will not help.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                          Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                          leegs, an 8% return makes sense when the federal funds rate is 8%. The expected return and benefit could easily be pegged to the federal funds rate and still provide a defined benefit in relation to inflation, as determined by the rate. Pension funds could invest in treasuries.

                          In practice, this is why SS has fared better than pension funds and 401(k)s. People argue about its solvency, but in this recession, when compared with other investment vehicles, the fund has done remarkably well. The iTulip plan itself has pointed to treasuries.

                          Pensions created in a high-interest environment promised more than they could deliver not because of unscrupulous practices, but because an 8% return in an 8% inflation environment is flat and normal. When ZIRP kicks in, it all goes to hell.

                          But rather than adjust pension funds to match the federal funds rate, workers get stuck in the mutual fund morass. And mutual fund companies benefit. And employers can pay out less and/or take less market risk. Even though employers could easily tie funds to the federal funds rate and deliver benefits based on that to mitigate risk. But this is not what happened. The stock market bulls won out. And the employees lose.

                          I never made the argument that all pensions are reasonable. Clearly they are not. But 401(k)s are failing too. And any rational measure shows this. The middle class needs a lifeline now more than ever. Saddling them with risk and employer mandates to buy products they don't understand or products they don't want will not help.
                          We are nearing the end of a 30 year bull market in treasuries. Your idea will no longer work as interest rates start to rise along with inflation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                            Originally posted by jiimbergin View Post
                            We are nearing the end of a 30 year bull market in treasuries. Your idea will no longer work as interest rates start to rise along with inflation.
                            Indeed you are correct. But it would be more of a slow bleed than a quick crash. And we won't run into the situation many funds had today where they give up the slow bleed in fees, give out a chunk of the fund to private equity to friends' dumb ideas that go belly up, and lose 10% of their value on a bad day for the S&P 500.

                            SS worked before the bull market. TIPS could work today. Won't work as well tomorrow. But it's still safer.

                            You are correct, however. I don't have the magic bullet answer here. Someone smarter than me will have to come up with that.

                            But I do know that the whole 401(k) thing, if the public policy goal of the program was to provide the median worker with a vehicle to save for a retirement with 70-80% income replacement when combined with SS for 20 years, has been a failure. There has got to be a better way.

                            But regardless we have 401(k)s. And we're stuck with them. And they'll continue to expand as pensions die. At least for a good long while.

                            So the point is somewhat moot.

                            But the 401(k) of health plans is new. I still figure it'll make the deal even more rotten than it has been. Middle class' net worths will decline more quickly because of it. Think of it. Young people will no longer be in the insurance pool with old people. Good luck buying your own insurance as a 60 year old male with the voucher they give you.

                            There was a time when insurance companies' stated goal was to pool together to protect customers from catastrophic loss. It's a brave new world.
                            Last edited by dcarrigg; June 22, 2012, 07:03 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Defined Contribution Plans

                              There was a time when insurance companies' stated goal was to pool together to protect customers from catastrophic loss. It's a brave new world.
                              Health "insurance" as we know it is not really insurance. The expenses need to cover doctor visits and prescriptions etc. eat up too much of the premium. True insurance would only be true for catastrophic events. The normal everyday expenses would be covered by individuals themselves.

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