This is all a good thing.

[blazespinnaker]

High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.

We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.

Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.

Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.

[Master Shake]

Re: This is all a good thing.

High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.

We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.

Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.

Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.

Obama's plan is to make us more like Europe. In case you haven't noticed, they're in even worse shape than we are. So far, he's showing himself to be more Bill Ayres than Bill Clinton, which I'm sure the folks at ACORN, his racist church, and the Dem base are ecstatic about. An energy policy based on global warming hysteria and designed to enrich Wall St. carbon traders is going to be a fiasco.

Yet, for all his lefty leanings, in the one area where the government does need to be more involved, Wall St. and the FIRE Economy, he's much more timid and relying on the geniuses that got us into this mess. Geithner is looking like a world-class disaster.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: This is all a good thing.

Geithner's policy is the same as Buffets. Basically, provide leverage to private investors who will have some skin in the game. It's really not a bad idea.

Geithner's big problem is that he's not a Rubin like TresSec .. He doesn't understand the spotlight very well.


I agree though, there is a danger that we could permanently move too much towards the European model. That would be bad not just for the US but for the world, as free markets are the engines of innovation.

However - the US has made these significant moves towards the left during these down years before and has recovered and moved back to the right. I'm sure it'll do it again just fine.

I think Obama has a plan and I personally think it's a pretty good one. The question is - can he ensure that his plan is executed? I wasn't too impressed when he put Biden on the job. However, Obama has shown he can do the runaround on his lieutenants whenever he pleases, so I'm not tooo worried.

I'm fairly optimistic about what is happening, to be honest. However, I am a little concerned that these social advances won't show up in the stock markets all that much.

The question is .. how will they show up? What ETF is there for fundamental improvements in infrastructure and middle class well being?

What I would though is a more pro-active approach to crime. We need smart street camera and DNA policies that balance privacy and security. This recession is going to make crime worse, and we need to find an appropriate response to that. I'm not sure Obama is on top of that particular problem.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: This is all a good thing.

Obama's plan is to make us more like Europe. In case you haven't noticed, they're in even worse shape than we are. So far, he's showing himself to be more Bill Ayres than Bill Clinton, which I'm sure the folks at ACORN, his racist church, and the Dem base are ecstatic about. An energy policy based on global warming hysteria and designed to enrich Wall St. carbon traders is going to be a fiasco.

why post this?

[blazespinnaker]

Re: This is all a good thing.

why post this?

Well, they're all reasonable critiques. His policies are pretty leftist.

However, I think there are times when left leaning policies are more appropriate than right leaning policies .. and vice versa. I think it may be fair to say, we are in such period of time and Obama understands this, or it's just his nature.

Latest polling says that the general american populace is comfortable with the choices he is making, and the GOP is completely rudderless at the moment. Why is that? I think it's more than just Rush Limbaugh ... I think Obama is on the right side of history.

The US is usually pretty right wing .. my guess is that most of US understands the situation and they feel his responses are generally correct, even though it's against the character of the US.

That being said, I hope there will be a way out of this once things settle down. Once infrastructure is dramatically improved, the hysteria goes away, I think free markets need to regain their previous influence.

The elections every 4 years is a tugawar in the balance of power. Sometimes we need to tug one way more than the other. I think Bush tugged a little too hard to the right and that contributed to this mess and why it's difficult a bit to stomach what Obama is doing. I think it's fair to say his huge tugging is necessary to get back to an appropriate balance.

As you can tell, I'm a centrist by nature.

[Master Shake]

Re: This is all a good thing.

Well, they're all reasonable critiques. His policies are pretty leftist.

However, I think there are times when left leaning policies are more appropriate than right leaning policies .. and vice versa. I think it may be fair to say, we are in such period of time and Obama understands this, or it's just his nature.

Latest polling says that the general american populace is comfortable with the choices he is making, and the GOP is completely rudderless at the moment. Why is that? I think it's more than just Rush Limbaugh ... I think Obama is on the right side of history.

The US is usually pretty right wing .. my guess is that most of US understands the situation and they feel his responses are generally correct, even though it's against the character of the US.

That being said, I hope there will be a way out of this once things settle down. Once infrastructure is dramatically improved, the hysteria goes away, I think free markets need to regain their previous influence.

The elections every 4 years is a tugawar in the balance of power. Sometimes we need to tug one way more than the other. I think Bush tugged a little too hard to the right and that contributed to this mess and why it's difficult a bit to stomach what Obama is doing. I think it's fair to say his huge tugging is necessary to get back to an appropriate balance.

As you can tell, I'm a centrist by nature.

Blaze,

In what areas did Bush tug us to the right, other than SCOTUS appointments and tax cuts? It certainly wasn't in the traditional conservative sense of smaller, less intrusive government or fiscal prudence.

And, as much as Obama and his ilk are anathema to me, I would have supported a REAL stimulus/infrastructure package, instead of the pork-laden, lefty-wish-list monstrosity that we got. I'm also on board with "nationalizing" the zombies and "clawing back" the bonuses and prosecuting the banksters responsible for this mess. All I'm seeing is business as usual.

[Penguin]

Re: This is all a good thing.

I am assuming that the good parts of his plan don't include the recycled 'bad bank' idea.

Q: How many guises can you invent to hide the fact that you are taking idiotic loans and their derivatives and palming them off on the taxpayer?

A: As many as it takes to get the job done.

I would have a lot more respect for the man and his policies if he just came out and stated in a loud and clear way that, yes, he is going to take this toxic sludge out of the banking industry and make the future taxpayer take all the risk and get all the cost. This hide the sausage routine every 3 weeks with the same old hidden tired lie is wearing thin.

On his other proposals I reserve judgment at this time. But the handling of the banking crisis is as ham handed and wrong headed as that of his predecessor.

Will

[Thailandnotes]

Re: This is all a good thing.

I ask again not to provoke,
but just
why post it?
or why post it here?

Bill Ayres, ACORN, racist church, global warming hysteria, Wall St. carbon traders, lefty leanings, world-class disaster.

rush limbaugh, jesse helms, racist church, intelligent design, katrina, heck of job brownie, world-class disaster.

why post it?

[Uno]

Re: This is all a good thing.

The political center in the US moves all the time, so right and left wing is relative to the center.

The US center has moved right for many years, making the US much more right wing, radically right wing in the opinion of many other civilized nations. The center in other countries move as well.

Most American cabbage heads simple move with the shifts. If they feel they are right wingers, then they become more radical. What used to be a right wing moderate is now a "liberal lefty" ect... same with democrat cabbage heads, many have become more "right wing" with the shift.

Not alive back then, but during the US baby boom century 1930-1970 the US center seemed much further left. Building interstate highway systems, sending people to the moon, building state university systems ect.. all socialist undertakings that required central planning and spending.

In relation to most modern countries, Obama is a moderate centrist, Bush was a radical right, Clinton a more moderate right winger. Even Pelosi would not be much of a "lefty" in many countries.

[we_are_toast]

Re: This is all a good thing.

High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.

We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.

Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.

Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.

You're right.
The conservative "government is the problem" lets all kneel at the altar of laissez faire, trickle down, free markets, that started with Reagan, has killed the worlds economy and now hundreds of millions will suffer.

Obama's reset of everything is the right way to go, except for this Summers/Geithner crazy effort to prop up the FIRE economy. When we see the Bank Holiday some Friday after the markets close, then we will know the President has a good understanding of the economic situation. I'm holding my breath, but I'm starting to turn blue.

This thread probably should be placed under rants.

[GRG55]

Re: This is all a good thing.

You're right.
The conservative "government is the problem" lets all kneel at the altar of laissez faire, trickle down, free markets, that started with Reagan, has killed the worlds economy and now hundreds of millions will suffer.

Obama's reset of everything is the right way to go, except for this Summers/Geithner crazy effort to prop up the FIRE economy. When we see the Bank Holiday some Friday after the markets close, then we will know the President has a good understanding of the economic situation. I'm holding my breath, but I'm starting to turn blue.

This thread probably should be placed under rants.

You are a much more experienced observer of the American political scene than I, but watching from this distance I am coming to the conclusion that when it comes to the specifics of the banking/financial aspects of this crisis, he is doing his part to communicate to the voters, but he's seems also to be carefully and deliberately placing some distance between himself and his "economics lieutenants". For example I don't see any photo ops of him huddled with Summers and Geithner in the Oval Office, etc.

[snakela]

Re: This is all a good thing.

The question is .. how will they show up? What ETF is there for fundamental improvements in infrastructure and middle class well being?

What I would though is a more pro-active approach to crime. We need smart street camera and DNA policies that balance privacy and security. This recession is going to make crime worse, and we need to find an appropriate response to that. I'm not sure Obama is on top of that particular problem.

Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't think there will be any sort of middle-class improvement. Some pot-holes will be filled in but its starting to sound like all energy generation - and therefore consumption is about to get more expensive. The US infrastructure was built around the availability of cheap energy and its not going to get re-organized in a few quarters. I've never seen any info stating that the US needs more infrastructure where the benefits would out-weigh the costs (however those benefits are calculated). There will always be "not enough" of everything assuming its free but I have no reason to beleive scarce resources should be spent on even more roads and bridges.

Plus, we'll be re-organizing around another bad investment. Its clear that alt. energy is more expensive than the dino-based ones, especially now. Some people think that cost is worth decreasing AGW risk...which is a personal belief and not something country-wide investment decisions should be based on considering all the evidence both for and against AGW.

There's a ETN called GRN but I don't know much about it and personally don't want to invest in things based on nothing but rent-seeking. I'll believe in all this green technology stuff the day those technologies can stand on their own wihtout government subsidies. Until then its just a rigged market and we're always one politician away from having the rug pulled.

[jimmygu3]

Re: This is all a good thing.

I ask again not to provoke,
but just
why post it?
or why post it here?

rush limbaugh, jesse helms, racist chiurch, intelligent design, katrina, heck of job brownie, world-class disaster.

why post it?

I agree. Unnecessary political rhetoric. It sounded like Sean Hannity doing a Mad-Lib. ;)

[RebbePete]

Re: This is all a good thing.

From the Simon and Garfunkel song, "The Boxer:"

I am just a poor boy, though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

When I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy
In the company of strangers.....
In the quiet of the railway station, runnin' scared
Laying low, seeking out the poorer quarters, where the ragged people go
Looking for the places only they would know

Seeking only workman's wages, I come looking for a job, but I get no offers.....
Just a come-on from the whores on Seventh Avenue
I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there

Now the years are rolling by me, they are rockin' even me
I am older than I once was, and younger than I'll be, that's not unusual
No it isn't strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same
After changes we are more or less the same.........

Reading this thread reminds me of that, especially the parts I've bolded.

- Pete

[jtabeb]

Re: This is all a good thing.

High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.

We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.

Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.

Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.

NO this is not all a GOOD THING.

If you look at what is going on there is NO SYSTEMIC reform, NO CHECKS on the A$$HOLES that got us into this mess, and BEST OF ALL, we are USING TAX DOLLARS TO SUPPORT SAID A$$HOLEs AND AND AND MAKE THEM EVEN MORE POWERFUL.

Good thing, heck I allways thought proto-fascism was a BAD THING. My mistake!