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Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

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  • Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

    A nice compelling post mortem of the financial crisis. A prediction on Bretton Woods 2. Loss of Wealth to Chinese, EU, US taxpayers and Saudi(Monarchs - no taxpayers here)

    http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/10/...s-2/#more-3906

    Originally posted by cfr.org
    The end of Bretton Woods 2?


    In late 2004, Nouriel Roubini and I wrote that “the tensions created [by the Bretton Woods 2 system] are large, large enough to crack the system in the next three to four years.” In a 2005 Wall Street Journal online debate with Michael Dooley I tried to hedge a bit, and gave the system six years.

    “we [Roubini and Setser] never said the system would collapse at the end of 2005. A collapse in 2006, maybe. A collapse before 2008, likely; before 2010, almost certainly.

    I used to worry that these dire warnings would prove to be wrong – and that Michael Dooley and Peter Garber would remind me of them at a time and place of their choosing. Now I am starting to worry that Nouriel and I may end up being partially right.
    The available trade data for q3 does not show a fall in either the US deficit or China’s surplus. But I increasingly suspect that the combination of falling oil prices and falling demand for imported goods will produce significant fall in the US trade and current account deficit in the fourth quarter, with a corresponding fall in the emerging world’s combined surplus. The Bretton Woods 2 system – where China and then the oil-exporters provided (subsidized) financing to the US to sustain their exports – will come close to ending, at least temporarily. If the US and Europe are not importing much, the rest of the world won’t be exporting much.
    And rather than ending with a whimper, Bretton Woods 2 may end with a bang.
    In some sense Bretton Woods 2 has been on life support for a while now. China’s recent export growth has depended far more on Europe than on the US. US demand for non-oil imports peaked in 2006. One irony of the past year is that the US was borrowing far more from China that it was buying from China. Campaign rhetoric that the US was paying for Saudi oil with funds borrowed from China isn’t far off – though it leaves out the fact that the US also borrows from Saudi Arabia to pay for Venezuelan, Mexican and Nigerian oil.
    If Bretton Woods 2 ends in 2009 – if US demand for imports falls sharply in the last part of 2008 and early 2009, bringing the US trade deficit down – it won’t have ended in the way Nouriel and I outlined back in late 2004 and early 2005. We postulated that foreign demand for US debt would dry up – pushing up US Treasury rates and delivering a nasty shock to a housing-centric economy. As Brad DeLong notes, it didn’t quite play out that way. The US and European banking system collapsed before the balance of financial terror collapsed. Dr. DeLong writes:

    All of us from Lawrence Summers to John Taylor were expecting a very different financial crisis. We were expecting the ‘Balance of Financial Terror’ between Asia and America to collapse and produce chaos. We are not having that financial crisis. Instead we are having a very different financial crisis. Catastrophic failures of risk management throughout the entire banking sector caused a relatively minor collapse in housing prices to freeze up global finance to a degree that has not been seen since the Great Depression.
    The end result of this crisis though could be rather similar: a sharp contraction in credit, a fall in US economic activity, a fall in US imports and a fall in the amount of foreign financing the US needs.* The US government is (possibly) trying to offset the fall in private demand by borrowing more and spending more — but as of now there is realistic risk that the fall in private activity will trump the fiscal stimulus.
    Consequently, this still strikes me a crisis of the Bretton Woods 2 system. In retrospect, Bretton Woods 2 depended on two things: ongoing flows from the emerging world’s governments to the US Treasury and Agency market, and the ongoing ability of the US financial system (broadly defined to include the dollar-based “shadow” financial system operating in London and other offshore centers) to transform these flows into loans to ever-more indebted US households. US investors** effectively sold their holdings of Treasuries and Agencies to the world’s central banks, and then redeployed their funds into private-label mortgage-backed securities. Between the end of 2003 and q2 2007 (three and a half years), the stock of mortgages held by private issuers of asset-backed securities rose from about $1 trillion to around $3 trillion. That demand meant that credit was available to any household that wanted it – even those without much ability to pay if the housing market ever turned.
    Or, to put it more succinctly, Bretton Woods 2, as it evolved, hinged both on the willingness of foreign central banks to take the currency risk associated with lending to the US at low rates in dollars despite the United States large current account deficit AND the willingness of private financial intermediaries to take the credit risk associated with lending at low rates to highly-indebted US households.
    The second leg of the chain collapsed before the first. And it collapse looks set to deliver a nasty shock to everyone – including the countries that supply the US with vendor financing.
    In some sense, the vendor finance analogy never really worked. The “vendor” financers didn’t actually lend directly to the US households that were buying their goods. The big emerging market central banks were willing to take on currency risk associated with lending to the US but not the credit risk associated with lending to US households.
    That didn’t matter so long as US financial institutions were willing to take the credit risk.
    But now US financial institutions are neither willing nor able to take on the risk of lending even more to US households. For a while the US government was able to ramp up its lending to households (notably through the Agencies) and in the process effectively take over the function previously performed by the private financial system (over the last four quarters, the flow of funds data indicates that the Agencies provided around $800 billion of net credit to US households). But now the US government is struggling to keep the financial system from collapsing. It doesn’t seem like it will able to avoid a sharp fall in the overall availability of credit.
    In retrospect, the fact that (reported) bank profits didn’t fall as the Fed raised rates should have been a clue that risks were building. An inverted yield curve isn’t good for institutions that borrow short and lend long – but it initially didn’t seem to have an impact on financial sector profitability. It is now clear how the financial sector kept profits up: it took on more risk, as it shifted from borrowing short to buy safe long-term assets (Treasuries and Agencies) to borrowing short to buy risky long-term assets. Leverage in the system also increased (and for some broker dealers that seems to be an understatement), as more and more financial institutions believed that the US had entered into an era of little macroeconomic or financial volatility. The net result seems to have been a truly explosive concentration of risk in the hands of a core set of financial intermediaries in the US and Europe. Securitization – it seems – actually didn’t disperse risk into the hands of institutions able to handle it.
    Many have highlighted the role that loose US monetary policy played in supporting the housing boom. And there is no doubt much truth in this story: pushing rates down to help “clean” up the bursting of the .com bubble and holding them down for several years certainly helped induce the rise in home prices and the housing boom. At the same time, this story leaves out what to me is a crucial part of the story: the housing boom didn’t end when the Fed reversed course and raised long-term rates. The really risky loans were made in late 2005, 2006 and early 2007 – after policy rates had increased. Private institutions kept on lending – in part because they decided that it was safe, in a world of low assumed macroeconomic volatility – to take on more leverage and more credit risk to keep profits up.
    Foreign central banks that kept on lending to the US despite large ongoing deficits – and poor returns, after taking into account the currency risk – on their dollars contributed too. If they had scaled back their financing more rapidly, the US would have been forced to adjust sooner – reducing the risk of the kind of severe crisis we are now in.
    I hope that the process of adjustment now underway isn’t as sharp as I fear. The US economy gradually can shift from producing MBS for sale to US investors flush with cash from the sale of safe securities to China and Saudi Arabia to producing goods and services for export – but it cannot shift from churning out complex debt securities to producing goods and services overnight. Indeed, in a slowing US and global economy, improvements in the US deficit will likely come from faster falls in US imports than in US exports – not from ongoing growth in US exports.
    But right now it looks like there is a real risk that the adjustment won’t be gradual. And it certainly looks like the flow of Chinese (and Gulf) savings to US households over the past few years has produced one of the largest misallocations of global capital in recent history.
    US taxpayers are going to be hit with a large tab for the credit risk taken on by undercapitalized financial intermediaries. Chinese taxpayers may get hit with a similar tab for the losses their central bank incurred by overpaying for US and European assets as part of its policy of holding its exchange rate down. The TARP is around 5% of US GDP. There are plausible estimates that China’s currency losses will prove to be of comparable magnitude. Charles Dumas puts the cost at above 5% of GDP:

    “Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research estimates that China makes 1-2 per cent on its (largely) dollar reserves. It then loses up to 10 per cent on the exchange rate and suffers a Chinese inflation rate of 6 per cent for a total real return in renminbi of about minus 15 per cent. That is a loss of $270bn a year, or a stunning 7-8 per cent of gross domestic product.”

    I have estimated that the annual cost of adding $600b (15% of China’s GDP) of unneeded reserves to China’s stockpile is roughly 5% of China’s GDP — though the exact loss depends on the size of the RMB’s eventual appreciation. Others have calculated large losses to Chinese households on the basis of the very low rates China has maintained on domestic deposits to support the RMB.
    The US taxpayer are currently getting hit with the tab for much of the credit risk that supported the big increase in US household consumption – as Martin Wolf quipped, what looked to be private lending turned out to be public spending. And China’s taxpayers will get eventually have to pick up the bill for the currency risk associated with lending to the US in dollars at low rates …
    * In one key respect the scenarios do differ: the collapse of the balance of financial terror would push Treasury yields up. The credit crisis has pushed Treasury yields down.
    ** If a US money market fund shifted from investing in Treasuries to investing in the dollar denominated paper of a European that was “funding” its holdings of mortgage-backed securities in the money market, the money market fund effectively ended up taking on credit risk – albeit quite indirectly. A money market fund that shifted from holding Treasuries to holding Lehman paper certainly ended up taking on credit risk.

  • #2
    Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

    “Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research estimates that China makes 1-2 per cent on its (largely) dollar reserves. It then loses up to 10 per cent on the exchange rate and suffers a Chinese inflation rate of 6 per cent for a total real return in renminbi of about minus 15 per cent. That is a loss of $270bn a year, or a stunning 7-8 per cent of gross domestic product.”
    And from the comments section:


    bsetser Says:

    The currency losses reduce the profits of the PBoC, and thus can be thought of as a tax on china — the government isn’t getting the seignorage revenue that would be expected. that is a bit more than a “paper” loss. no one would say that the USG is just taking a paper loss if it buys assets under the TARP for $700b and sells them for $500b.
    This is how the global financial scam of negative interest rate loan works. Now the famous "Deficits don't matter" makes sense...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

      As I've remarked elsewhere symbols, there is a tendency to presume the Chinese are plain stupid and will continue to be so.
      I don't think the US should expect such a benign outcome in the long term.
      ....just my observations on Chinese.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

        Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
        As I've remarked elsewhere symbols, there is a tendency to presume the Chinese are plain stupid and will continue to be so.
        They are not stupid. They are just blackmailed and scammed because of their fear for the collapse of "internal stability".

        When China was going down fast after Mao's death, they made a pact with the devil. The fast export/development currency-manipulation scheme that is the base for the Chinese "economic miracle" was the act of willingly accepting the global financial parasite in the hope they'll somehow pull it off (with the help of strong government control over their population).

        Well,... they got infected and realized too late it is not possible to escape global financial seignorage. Rajiv and Sapiens brought here an excellent link about how the financial parasite works:

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Rajiv
        Fractional Reserve Banking as Economic Parasitism
        A Scientific, Mathematical, & Historical Expose, Critique, and Manifesto




        Please skip the math part if you don't have enough time/patience and go to the second part of "financial epidemiology". It can't be explained clearer than that.
        Last edited by Supercilious; October 21, 2008, 12:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

          Originally posted by $#*
          Well,... they got infected and realized too late it is not possible to escape global financial seignorage.
          That explains the past from one point of view.

          It does not predict the future: once again, if the US does not have the ability to repay nor is able to restart the consumption pyramid, how then is China trapped into extending future credit? China simply doesn't have the money even if it wanted to.

          The Setser/cfr.org post specifically addresses this as an issue and equally concludes massive systemic risk in a disorderly return to 1980's manufacturing equilibrium.

          Because the 10% losses in China's existing dollar hoard are going to be matched (actually, have already been surpassed) by losses in the US capital base. So who is going to parasitize who? And what is the 'blood channel'? It isn't going to be cheap labor based goods.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            That explains the past from one point of view.

            It does not predict the future: once again, if the US does not have the ability to repay nor is able to restart the consumption pyramid,
            c1ue here we strongly disagree. US (actually the Wall Street "Parasites" have total and exclusive control over the US dollar. They can repay as much as they wants as long as they don't run out of ink and paper. US is not Iceland or Hungary. WSP (Wall Street Parasites) are the source of infection and they will not kill their primary host.

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            how then is China trapped into extending future credit? China simply doesn't have the money even if it wanted to.
            That is simple. China crashes when the export engine is completely gripped, then a Thailand-1997 coupled with a Japan-1989 shock is easy to envision.

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            The Setser/cfr.org post specifically addresses this as an issue and equally concludes massive systemic risk in a disorderly return to 1980's manufacturing equilibrium.
            It seems to me they want rather a return to 1940 manufacturing equilibrium ... ;)

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            Because the 10% losses in China's existing dollar hoard are going to be matched (actually, have already been surpassed) by losses in the US capital base. So who is going to parasitize who? And what is the 'blood channel'? It isn't going to be cheap labor based goods.
            c1lue here is the whole deception.... and it's brilliantly simple. If Average Joe lost in this crisis his retirement savings and Average Ivan, Li and Abdul lost their savings through "magnificent" SWF investments, then I have a simple question: who made all that money ?

            Imagine you have a poker table with four players: Mr Wall Street Banker, Average Joe, Average Ivan and Average Li. Each player enters the game with $10000. After one night of intense gambling, the situation is as follows:
            -Mr Wall Street Banker lost $10,000- he got cleaned
            -Average Joe lost $3,000
            -Average Li lost $6,000
            -Average Ivan lost $4,000

            That would be a true miracle if you wouldn't know that Miss Wall Street deals and shuffles the cards, Mr Fed is in charge for the money-chips exchange and Mrs Treasury serves the drinks and sandwiches.

            Don't you see that we are all victims of a Good Wall Street / Bad Wall Street game? Geee!.... is that difficult to see that ?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

              Originally posted by $#*
              c1ue here we strongly disagree. US (actually the Wall Street "Parasites" have total and exclusive control over the US dollar. They can repay as much as they wants as long as they don't run out of ink and paper. US is not Iceland or Hungary. WSP (Wall Street Parasites) are the source of infection and they will not kill their primary host.
              $#*,

              I've never said the US wouldn't repay the dollar amount of the debt.

              What I've said is the purchasing power equivalent would never be repaid.

              All that's required to repay any $ debt is printing of dollars to match.

              However, printing dollars doesn't buy more oil imports nor does it equalize the $700B of trade deficit every year.

              Since the trade deficit consists of other nation's labor and commodities exchanged for paper - why again would other nation's continue to do so when the US' ability to repay in like purchasing power is nonexistent?

              Originally posted by $#*
              That is simple. China crashes when the export engine is completely gripped, then a Thailand-1997 coupled with a Japan-1989 shock is easy to envision.
              I still don't understand how China crashing means they continue to sell their labor and commodities for nothing. It didn't happen with Thailand; with Thailand what happened was trade deficits disappeared and were replaced with trade surpluses - in other words imports completely stopped.

              China already has a trade surplus. How does a crash of their economy due to a Thailand style currency crisis change anything?

              Originally posted by $#*
              It seems to me they want rather a return to 1940 manufacturing equilibrium ... ;)
              I doubt that ... :eek:

              Originally posted by $#*
              c1lue here is the whole deception.... and it's brilliantly simple. If Average Joe lost in this crisis his retirement savings and Average Ivan, Li and Abdul lost their savings through "magnificent" SWF investments, then I have a simple question: who made all that money ?
              Actually, I think most everybody lost money.

              Just as money is created from thin air in a bubble, so then does money disappear into thin air as said bubble collapses.

              Where the banksters get their moolah is skimming fees off as cash in the process.

              While some trading profits have been had, by and large what we're seeing is pure monetary destruction via securities collapsing.

              In your example - much like in a confidence game - the money made is when the mark puts more of his own money to more than match the cash investment by the confidence game operator.

              The 'value' for which said gullible investor paid for is in reality only in his head.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                Originally posted by $#* View Post
                c1lue here is the whole deception.... and it's brilliantly simple. If Average Joe lost in this crisis his retirement savings and Average Ivan, Li and Abdul lost their savings through "magnificent" SWF investments, then I have a simple question: who made all that money ?

                Imagine you have a poker table with four players: Mr Wall Street Banker, Average Joe, Average Ivan and Average Li. Each player enters the game with $10000. After one night of intense gambling, the situation is as follows:
                -Mr Wall Street Banker lost $10,000- he got cleaned
                -Average Joe lost $3,000
                -Average Li lost $6,000
                -Average Ivan lost $4,000

                That would be a true miracle if you wouldn't know that Miss Wall Street deals and shuffles the cards, Mr Fed is in charge for the money-chips exchange and Mrs Treasury serves the drinks and sandwiches.

                Don't you see that we are all victims of a Good Wall Street / Bad Wall Street game? Geee!.... is that difficult to see that ?
                money/investments/asset values are not zero sum. if a single share of stock trades down a dollar, every share of that company in every portfolio is marked to market, and millions of dollars go to money heaven. no one makes the money that is lost. [though you- or more likely finster - could argue that every extant dollar just got a tad more valuable.]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                  Originally posted by jk View Post
                  money/investments/asset values are not zero sum.
                  That is not correct jk from an analytical point of view. Real money destruction occurs only if someone makes a fire with treasuries or dollar bills.

                  Credit destruction occurs only through primary extractive redemption, primary default, forced redemption through war etc.

                  Originally posted by jk View Post
                  if a single share of stock trades down a dollar, every share of that company in every portfolio is marked to market, and millions of dollars go to money heaven.
                  Money heaven is the vault of a primary lender.

                  If I open a hedge fund today and you invest in my hedge fund $100, and I invest it in worthless paper sold by c1ue, when that piece of worthless paper is marked-to-market to $0, your share becomes $0. You lost all your money and I tell you that the money is gone because our CDO or share is worth nothing. If you believe me that there is Santa Claus, Eastern Bunny and Securities Transubstantiation and Resurrection towards Money Heaven, you fail to realize that c1ue just made $100 by selling us some piece of worthless paper, and I passed the loss (which occurred due to my incompetence), to you.

                  Originally posted by jk View Post
                  no one makes the money that is lost. [though you- or more likely finster - could argue that every extant dollar just got a tad more valuable.]

                  “If you don’t know who the sucker is, then you’re it.”
                  -Warren Buffet

                  For every dollar lost by a Bear Stearns or a Lehman hedgefund there is one dollar gained by a smart guy like Andrew Lahde:
                  These people who were (often) truly not worthy of the education they received (or supposedly received) rose to the top of companies such as AIG, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all levels of our government. All of this behavior supporting the Aristocracy, only ended up making it easier for me to find people stupid enough to take the other side of my trades. God bless America.
                  Or, more often, there is a smart guy like Hank Paulson who in 2004 convinced the SEC to allow an exemption to the net capital rule for the Big Boys on Wall Street so they can sell more worthless paper to idiots ready to buy it. (JK can you find how much loss from toxic mortgage CDO paper Goldman Sucks had?)

                  The big confusion that allow people to believe that a crashed market is similar to a money destruction mechanism stems from not understanding the difference between notional value and hypothetical transient value (which are not the same).

                  If your $100 CDO share at a certain moment had a market value of $120 but you decided to wait until the price got higher, and it went back to $100, you had a transient hypothetical value of 120$ (and corollary a hypothetical transient profit of $20, had you sold that security at the peak moment).

                  It is true that transient hypothetical values can disappear into nothing, but if a price function of a security is segmented by a transaction, then there is no Money Heaven or Money Black Hole.

                  If you had sold that security to ASH at peak price of $120 then you could say you sold a security with notional value of $120 to ASH (your profit is not hypothetical anymore, but absolutely real). If ASH does a Thain move and sells that worthless security to Rajiv for $30, and Rajiv gets stuck with the 0 value toxic garbage, the equation of our magic/worthless piece of paper becomes:
                  • -c1lue makes $100 by selling to you a security with a notional value of $100
                  • -you make $20 by selling your security with a notional value of $120 to ASH
                  • -ASH lost $90 by selling the same security at a notional value of $30 to Rajiv
                  • -Rajiv lost $30 buy buying a security with a notional value of $30 which is worth $0.


                  $100+$20-$90-$30=$0

                  Can you tell me where the money has evaporated and where is the Money Heaven?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                    Unfortunately $#* - you are either completely without education or basis in economic reality or you are deliberately trying to misinform.

                    Sure, if you are dealing with internet companies, the intrinsic value of a share is zero because there is neither revenue nor product.

                    However, in the real world, there are such things.

                    As both JK and I have noted - securities are NOT zero sum.

                    Just as residential property is NOT zero sum.

                    When prices are going up, EVERYONE makes money.

                    But when prices are going down, EVERYONE loses money.

                    The actual price is set on the margin.

                    This is exactly the dynamic which breeds bubbles.

                    Thus your childishly simplistic example might make sense to those who are completely as economically illiterate as you are, but unfortunately doesn't hold any water for those who do have a clue.

                    As for Bear and whatnot - options and derivatives are different than residential property and securities.

                    In those examples, the game IS zero sum because every single option/derivative was created for the purpose of and existence defined for a specific transaction. There is no revenue stream nor profits associated with an option/derivative, neither is there any intrinsic physical value nor utility.

                    Surely even your bathetic insight can understand the difference between securities of companies in good standing and/or residential real estate vs. a call/put option or a CDO?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                      You bet it, they fired the first salvo through HK, full backing of all banking deposits in HK with foreign exchange reserves of $161 billion, and another $2trillion from China (if required).

                      Now you can transfer all your monies to Citibank HK and get full guarantee.

                      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/bu...rssnyt&emc=rss

                      Investors will start comparing which governments got more money and move their funds.


                      Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
                      As I've remarked elsewhere symbols, there is a tendency to presume the Chinese are plain stupid and will continue to be so.
                      I don't think the US should expect such a benign outcome in the long term.
                      ....just my observations on Chinese.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                        Originally posted by touchring View Post
                        You bet it, they fired the first salvo through HK, full backing of all banking deposits in HK with foreign exchange reserves of $161 billion, and another $2trillion from China (if required).

                        Now you can transfer all your monies to Citibank HK and get full guarantee.

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/bu...rssnyt&emc=rss

                        Investors will start comparing which governments got more money and move their funds.
                        Sorry to tell you - The last Government I would believe is a communist country to safe guard my capital. Remember "Communism", everyone seems to have a short memory. You never know if China will ever honour guarantees if events turn on them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                          Unfortunately $#* - you are either completely without education or basis in economic reality or you are deliberately trying to misinform.

                          Sure, if you are dealing with internet companies, the intrinsic value of a share is zero because there is neither revenue nor product.

                          However, in the real world, there are such things.

                          As both JK and I have noted - securities are NOT zero sum.

                          Just as residential property is NOT zero sum.

                          When prices are going up, EVERYONE makes money.

                          But when prices are going down, EVERYONE loses money.

                          The actual price is set on the margin.

                          This is exactly the dynamic which breeds bubbles.

                          Thus your childishly simplistic example might make sense to those who are completely as economically illiterate as you are, but unfortunately doesn't hold any water for those who do have a clue.

                          As for Bear and whatnot - options and derivatives are different than residential property and securities.

                          In those examples, the game IS zero sum because every single option/derivative was created for the purpose of and existence defined for a specific transaction. There is no revenue stream nor profits associated with an option/derivative, neither is there any intrinsic physical value nor utility.

                          Surely even your bathetic insight can understand the difference between securities of companies in good standing and/or residential real estate vs. a call/put option or a CDO?
                          Clue, I'm trying to sort this out so bear with me. If real estate values go up is it not true that some people are actually poorer, i.e. the ones who don't have enough capital to get in on the game and so have to sit on the sidelines as the prospects of them ever buying an affordable house disappear? They still may make the same money, but it is just not enough to buy that house they want anymore. And then on the flip side, as long as the property hasn't had any structural problems in the interim, isn't saying they all lose money on the downside the same thing as calling it a zero sum game?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            Unfortunately $#* - you are either completely without education or basis in economic reality or you are deliberately trying to misinform.
                            c1ue you are or incapable to focus or you are completely without education or a basic understanding of calculus 101.

                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            Sure, if you are dealing with internet companies, the intrinsic value of a share is zero because there is neither revenue nor product.
                            That is irrelevant for our little example and not correct anyway. The residual intrinsic value of any security can be $0. What is the value of Lehman ETN shares today? I'm talking about EOH, PPE or RAW


                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            As both JK and I have noted - securities are NOT zero sum.

                            Just as residential property is NOT zero sum.

                            When prices are going up, EVERYONE makes money.

                            But when prices are going down, EVERYONE loses money.
                            From an analytical point of view securities are a zero sum and you are wrong


                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            Thus your childishly simplistic example might make sense to those who are completely as economically illiterate as you are, but unfortunately doesn't hold any water for those who do have a clue.[...]
                            c1ue I'm not here to shake your faith and beliefs system. Feel free to believe in whatever you want: Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Czar Putin, Money Heaven etc. No need to get so defensive...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Brad Sester : Crisis analysis of credit risk(US/Europe) vs currency risk(China/Japan/Saudi)

                              Originally posted by sishya View Post
                              Sorry to tell you - The last Government I would believe is a communist country to safe guard my capital. Remember "Communism", everyone seems to have a short memory. You never know if China will ever honour guarantees if events turn on them.

                              That might be possible, i don't believe everything they say as well, but only as much as i believe what the US government says. In fact, I told my folks and friends not to put money into Citibank or any western bank, that this even with Singapore's 100% guarantee on $220 billions deposits with $100 billion reserves (distinct from the $500 billion SWFs controlled by the government).
                              Last edited by touchring; October 22, 2008, 03:12 PM.

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