Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

[icm63]

science.jpg

Dr Sean Simpson hopes to turn carbon monoxide into biofuel.

An Auckland firm aiming to commercially make biofuel out of the flue gas from factories has been awarded $12 million in Government funds.LanzaTech - partly backed by The Warehouse founder Stephen Tindall - won the first major contract awarded under the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology's Low Carbon Energy Technologies fund. "This is one of the most exciting projects of its kind we have invested in, with great potential to reduce our carbon emissions," said foundation chief executive Murray Bain.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/s...ectid=10521588

My Comments: Making fuel from waste is way better than fuel from corn ! Go kiwi !

[GRG55]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new energy revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

[ATTACH]430[/ATTACH]

Dr Sean Simpson hopes to turn carbon monoxide into biofuel.

An Auckland firm aiming to commercially make biofuel out of the flue gas from factories has been awarded $12 million in Government funds.LanzaTech - partly backed by The Warehouse founder Stephen Tindall - won the first major contract awarded under the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology's Low Carbon Energy Technologies fund. "This is one of the most exciting projects of its kind we have invested in, with great potential to reduce our carbon emissions," said foundation chief executive Murray Bain.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/s...ectid=10521588

My Comments: Making fuel from waste is way better than fuel from corn ! Go kiwi !

Amazing what $140 crude can do. Lots of interesting stuff going on.

If it turns out they can make ethanol from carbon monoxide, would that then mean they could capture the CO from automobile exhaust pipes, convert it to ethanol, refill the fuel tank, and keep on drivin'?

Just askin'...

[Mega]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

............and i "hope" to build a time manchine & go back to 1977 and **** Pat Benatar!

Mike

[icm63]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

Imagine all factories chimmeys having a receiver to capture gases, this receiver sends the gas to a bacteria pool, then carbon monoxide turned into biofuel.

Now thats smart !

[ASH]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new energy revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

My Comments: Making fuel from waste is way better than fuel from corn ! Go kiwi !

I see limited potential for this technology, depending upon what other inputs there are into making the ethanol.

Carbon monoxide (CO) results from an inefficient combustion process. The chemical energy available in CO was already in the carbon-based fuel prior to being burned the first time. The only reason there is any energy to harvest is because the first combustion reaction didn't go to completion (i.e. didn't result in CO2), and CO can still be burned down to CO2 with the release of further heat.

If you started with solid carbon (graphite phase) and burned it completely, you can get 393.5 kJ/mol at standard temperature and pressure:

C + O2 --> CO2 has an enthalpy of 393.5 kJ/mol

If, however, you burn carbon partially, you only get 110.5 kJ/mol:

C + 1/2 O2 --> CO has an enthalpy of 110.5 kJ/mol

The fuel value of the CO is just the difference between complete combustion and partial combustion:

CO + 1/2 O2 --> CO2 has an enthalphy of 283.0 kJ/mol

Now, this analysis needs to be modified by subtracting the heat of formation of the fuel material (i.e. what you gain or lose by disassembling the fuel into carbon), but the basic energetics are plain. If you can capture and use the CO in the exhaust of a factory or vehicle, that's an efficiency gain, and so much the better... but it isn't an independent source of fuel. You're just getting back some of what you were throwing away... and you could realize the same efficiency gains just by making your engine burn the original carbon fuel completely.

You might do better if the bacteria being used to make the ethanol allow you to add energy from some outside source. For instance, if CO + bacteria + sunshine or some combination like that allows you to harness solar power, then you might end up with more fuel value than just the leftover chemical energy of the CO.

[icm63]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I hope you read the article. I am no chemistry major, so I have no idea was your post means.

The company was pioneering a process to turn carbon monoxide into fuel that can power cars.
Just as yeast turns sugar into alcohol, LanzaTech uses a bacterium to produce ethanol from carbon monoxide, a waste product of many industrial processes. A pilot plant design is being developed that will allow ethanol production to be demonstrated at scale over the next 12 months.
"We looked essentially for the lowest cost source of carbon that was out there," said Dr Simpson.
"You quickly realise that waste resources are the lowest cost."
He conceded the idea might sound like science fiction but said it was hoped the fuel would go to market in the next five years.

SO I guess it worked in the lab, and their move from lab to plant hopefully will produce economic results. Time will tell. I do admit that the NZ Govt is ready to fork out grants easily to GREEN projects more so than medical projects, such is the flavor of the day.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I hope you read the article. I am no chemistry major, so I have no idea was your post means.



SO I guess it worked in the lab, and their move from lab to plant hopefully will produce economic results. Time will tell. I do admit that the NZ Govt is ready to fork out grants easily to GREEN projects more so than medical projects, such is the flavor of the day.

As I see it there is little utility to searching for ways to live longer if one cannot do so in the manner in which one has become accustomed, which in all developed nations requires energy.

I just read of some possible breakthrough in treating malaria which would be applicable, if and when it actually progresses to reality, to great numbers in Africa. That would be great to survive malaria so that you will be around to die of AIDS, or to be alive to suffer under the subjugation of some fool as Mugabe, or to starve in Ethiopia, or to be killed in Dafur, etc.

It would be an interesting statistic were it to be determined: has the world's population exploded more because of medical advancement or more because of the development and availability of energy and all that it enables.

[metalman]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

As I see it there is little utility to searching for ways to live longer if one cannot do so in the manner in which one has become accustomed, which in all developed nations requires energy.

I just read of some possible breakthrough in treating malaria which would be applicable, if and when it actually progresses to reality, to great numbers in Africa. That would be great to survive malaria so that you will be around to die of AIDS, or to be alive to suffer under the subjugation of some fool as Mugabe, or to starve in Ethiopia, or to be killed in Dafur, etc.

It would be an interesting statistic were it to be determined: has the world's population exploded more because of medical advancement or more because of the development and availability of energy and all that it enables.

need to change your name to dr. evil.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

need to change your name to dr. evil.

metalman, if you see the realities some other way, put them up here.

[marvenger]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I'm not a chemistry major either. But it would see to me that this must be a cheaper way to access the energy available in the CO waste than building a more efficient engine. I'm guessing the bacteria extract the energy in the CO to build and maintain their own cellular structures and ethanol is the byproduct with less energy than CO but in a form for easier for engine combustion. Maybe they can make a biofuel out of the bacteria to make it even more efficient.

if the ethanol has more energy than CO and the bacteria use solar energy to produce it, then from a renewable perspective this is even better. Kind of like the algae oil that has been discussed on itulip before.

[ASH]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I hope you read the article. I am no chemistry major, so I have no idea was your post means.

Sorry -- it pretty much means what marvenger says:

... But it would see to me that this must be a cheaper way to access the energy available in the CO waste than building a more efficient engine. I'm guessing the bacteria extract the energy in the CO to build and maintain their own cellular structures and ethanol is the byproduct with less energy than CO but in a form for easier for engine combustion. Maybe they can make a biofuel out of the bacteria to make it even more efficient.

if the ethanol has more energy than CO and the bacteria use solar energy to produce it, then from a renewable perspective this is even better. Kind of like the algae oil that has been discussed on itulip before.

I didn't mean to imply that the proposed innovation has no economic value -- merely that it represents an efficiency improvement rather than an actual alternative fuel source.

metalman, if you see the realities some other way, put them up here.

I agree with you, Jim (if I may address you familiarly) but I don't like to dwell on it. In my opinion, the sad truth of the matter is that disfunction appears to be a relatively stable condition for weak and corrupt states. There are the obvious cultural problems: pre-national societies in which tribal or ethnic identity are stronger than national identity. There are the obvious economic problems: poor infrastructure, little skilled labor, and low technology. However, I think the deciding factor is the political culture and standards of civic virtue. In this country, thank god, the men and women who wield the government's monopoly of force identify with the people, and they do not use that monopoly to extract bribes or interfere with democracy. Information can be exchanged freely, and to some extent, competition between political parties acts to limit official corruption. A lot of this is related to our concepts of freedom and liberty, and our political heritage. I recently read The History of England by Macaulay, and his musings on why England developed higher standards of individual liberty -- which we inherited -- make a fair amount of sense. There was a phase during the transition out of the feudal system during which seasonal feudal levies -- part-time soldiers drawn from the people -- gave way to permanent professional standing armies. In England, this transition was delayed, and without the cooperation of his subjects, the monarch was unable to raise sufficient funds to support a standing army. This denied the monarch the tools to establish a monopoly of force independent of his subjects, and a less autocratic sytem evolved during the interlude. Anyway, in the context of Africa, it occurs to me that the introduction of modern weapons into pre-national societies made assembling a monopoly of force relatively rapid and easy. The ones with the guns never had to bargain with the rest of society, and so the institutions are not constituted to serve society.

In short, I don't see the situation improving without a change in political culture. (Just my opinion.)


-- Andrew

[GRG55]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new energy revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I see limited potential for this technology, depending upon what other inputs there are into making the ethanol.

Carbon monoxide (CO) results from an inefficient combustion process. The chemical energy available in CO was already in the carbon-based fuel prior to being burned the first time. The only reason there is any energy to harvest is because the first combustion reaction didn't go to completion (i.e. didn't result in CO2), and CO can still be burned down to CO2 with the release of further heat.

If you started with solid carbon (graphite phase) and burned it completely, you can get 393.5 kJ/mol at standard temperature and pressure:

C + O2 --> CO2 has an enthalpy of 393.5 kJ/mol

If, however, you burn carbon partially, you only get 110.5 kJ/mol:

C + 1/2 O2 --> CO has an enthalpy of 110.5 kJ/mol

The fuel value of the CO is just the difference between complete combustion and partial combustion:

CO + 1/2 O2 --> CO2 has an enthalphy of 283.0 kJ/mol

Now, this analysis needs to be modified by subtracting the heat of formation of the fuel material (i.e. what you gain or lose by disassembling the fuel into carbon), but the basic energetics are plain. If you can capture and use the CO in the exhaust of a factory or vehicle, that's an efficiency gain, and so much the better... but it isn't an independent source of fuel. You're just getting back some of what you were throwing away... and you could realize the same efficiency gains just by making your engine burn the original carbon fuel completely.

You might do better if the bacteria being used to make the ethanol allow you to add energy from some outside source. For instance, if CO + bacteria + sunshine or some combination like that allows you to harness solar power, then you might end up with more fuel value than just the leftover chemical energy of the CO.

ASH: My initial reaction was exactly the same, which is why I posted the tongue-in-cheek "perpetual motion" automobile response. But other than Mega and yourself, I'm not sure anyone else caught on.

For those still pondering, here's another idea. Why doesn't someone (like maybe GM?) build a battery powered car with a small wind turbine on it. Then while the car is in motion the wind powered generator could charge up the batteries and the car would never ever have to be plugged in...:rolleyes:

[rchdenton]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

I did post this link elsewhere but since this thread is about this very subject:

Plans for a new biofuel made from waste gas belching out of industrial chimneys have received a $12 million boost from the Government.
Its developers hope the new fuel will slash the country's petrol consumption by 90 per cent.
The project is one of 96 to get a share of $785 million over five years from the funding agency Foundation for Research, Science and Technology.
LanzaTech, the Auckland company developing the biofuel, has already attracted heavyweight backing from Sun Microsystems co-founder Vinod Khosla.
It is testing a way of capturing industrial emissions and turning them into a high-energy alternative fuel through a fermentation process.
"It would look like a brewery next to a steel factory," said LanzaTech founder Sean Simpson.
Any industry producing carbon monoxide and hydrogen emissions would be suitable for the process.
The fuel could be mixed with petrol in a 90 per cent biofuel blend, cutting reliance on traditional fuels.
Foundation chief executive Murray Bain said the biofuel would not require changes to infrastructure.
"This is one of the most exciting projects of its kind we have invested in."
Dr Simpson said there was huge global potential in making fuel from waste gases, which were already being produced in big volumes and going to waste.
"We're not taking food resources. I know that's something people are very concerned about."




They are talking replacing 90% of petrol in NZ!

[Master Shake]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

Excellent post.

However, I think the deciding factor is the political culture and standards of civic virtue. In this country, thank god, the men and women who wield the government's monopoly of force identify with the people, and they do not use that monopoly to extract bribes or interfere with democracy. Information can be exchanged freely, and to some extent, competition between political parties acts to limit official corruption. A lot of this is related to our concepts of freedom and liberty, and our political heritage.

Unfortunately, assimilation is no longer considered proper and the continued influx of Third World peasantry into our country and the truly toxic doctrine of Multiculturalism is eroding our national culture.

If you haven't read it already, I recommend Albion's Seed by David Hackett-Fischer. Traces the development of America's regional and national culture to the culture and regions from which the original inhabitants migrated.

http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-B.../dp/0195069056

As far as fuel from CO goes, you are correct. Better to built a more efficient engine.

[c1ue]

Re: Kiwi's will lead new enery revolution: carbon monoxide into fuel !

In this country, thank god, the men and women who wield the government's monopoly of force identify with the people, and they do not use that monopoly to extract bribes or interfere with democracy. Information can be exchanged freely, and to some extent, competition between political parties acts to limit official corruption.

Are you referring to the US?

Of which time period?

What part about Bush/Clinton/Bush sounds democratic? Or that almost every President going back umpteen years went to one of a dozen elite colleges?

Have you ever looked at the familial histories of 90% of all standing US Senators?

If you're going to drink the Kool-Aid, at least know it is spiked beforehand.