The Harper's Letters

[Mega]

Re: The Harper's Letters

Flashback

Look what happened.....Middleclass taking a dump on Working Class

[jk]

Re: The Harper's Letters

It was the Loony left in your party, if you want power job 1 is to have a "Night of the long knifes"...............starting with AOC & Co

i think what turned the 2016 election was 2 things: a particularly unlikeable Democratic candidate and belief nonetheless in the inevitability of her victory, allowing for non-voting and 3rd party voting to be seen as harmless protest.

and i suggest you look up the "night of the long knives" and ask whether you really want to call forth such cold-blooded and murderous violence, even as metaphor. there are many other terms and phrases you might have chosen which are not as repulsive as that one.

also, did any of the commenters here actually READ jk rowling's letter? i read it as an appeal for tolerance, openness, and free expression FOR OTHERS AS WELL AS YOURSELF, and it appears to me that the comments made here in response exhibit none of those things.

[jpatter666]

Re: The Harper's Letters

No doubt most of you have heard about the letter published in Harper's Magazine, signed by about 150 prominent writers, artists, academics and other luminaries. Among them Salman Rushdie, Noam Chomsky, musician Wynton Marsalis, Canadian writer Margaret Atwood, journalist Anne Applebaum and the ever (un?)popular J. K. Rowling.

Trying to understand what is going on in a world that seems increasingly chaotic is challenging. At least this was an attempt at a conversation.
Food for thought.

I also found this interesting and have been in a discussion with an old college friend about this.

His view:
The actual aggravation being expressed in that letter is more about who gets to draw the line between what's acceptable and what's unacceptable, I think. If you have a TV program or radio show or newspaper column and enough advertisers decide that they don't want their ads run next to your opinion pieces, you'll find yourself banished to a soapbox in the town square pretty quickly. Everyone accepts this particular kind of cancel culture. No one questions the dominion of money as a final arbiter of relevance and acceptability. Now there's a somewhat different way to end up gesticulating and howling on that soapbox and some rather privileged people are anxious about it. But it's the world the rest of us have been living in all along.

Yonatan Zunger put it pretty well: "Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty." There are things that people can say which declare that they are in fact at war with me, and I should therefore see no reason to tolerate their speech or them. And to the extent that I have political power that I can use to displace them from their perches, I should use it. This isn't a new idea. What's new is that some people who previously could be ignored no longer can be because they have acquired some political power and are unafraid to use it.

My response
I'll give this some thought, always a well-put opinion, but perhaps instead of peace treaty I'd say there is (was) a Tolerance Geneva Convention. And it's in the process of being shredded. Now we see the start of the poison gas, torture and nuclear weaponry going off. We'll see if we can reach a new convention or no and what we have to go through to get there.

His comment on the Objective response
I think the anonymous signers demonstrate the point I was making, that this is the world the rest of us already live in. Say the wrong thing on social media and get fired. Try to organize a union and get fired. Get too drunk and loquacious at the office Christmas party and get fired. You don't have to be an intellectual to want to speak your mind, but those of us outside academia and syndicated columnist gigs already knew that shooting off your mouth is a dangerous pastime. It's been dangerous long before now.

As a character put it in one of my favorite novels (no doubt paraphrasing a philosopher): "Civilizations have the morality and ethics they can afford." People are getting abruptly terminated because some companies and organizations can't risk having revenue streams dry up, even briefly. Money again. It's always money. That's a structural defect of the unfettered capitalist system, prizing ruthless efficiency (in the service of capital preservation) over all else. Civil rights activists have long used this inherent cupidity as a lever to effect change. Free speech is libre, not gratis. Express whatever sentiments you like, but know that it might cost you. The lines of propriety are moving, but the battle is exactly the same.

See also:
https://quillette.com/2020/07/11/why...XsoaHuFKqhEtp0
https://newrepublic.com/article/1583...ILZ2-h2FXMkwl8
http://dailynous.com/2020/07/09/illu...BPf4_wEc9dOlHA

[llanlad2]

Re: The Harper's Letters

i think what turned the 2016 election was 2 things: a particularly unlikeable Democratic candidate and belief nonetheless in the inevitability of her victory, allowing for non-voting and 3rd party voting to be seen as harmless protest.

and i suggest you look up the "night of the long knives" and ask whether you really want to call forth such cold-blooded and murderous violence, even as metaphor. there are many other terms and phrases you might have chosen which are not as repulsive as that one.

also, did any of the commenters here actually READ jk rowling's letter? i read it as an appeal for tolerance, openness, and free expression FOR OTHERS AS WELL AS YOURSELF, and it appears to me that the comments made here in response exhibit none of those things.

Totally agree.

[jpatter666]

Re: The Harper's Letters

Totally agree.

What needs to be understood is there are a large number of "protesters" whose whole career is having something to protest against and are the very definition of Upton's quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

If a battle is won, they will move on to the next one. And there must be a battle. Otherwise, what's their purpose?

And this just dropped. IMO the backlash is on like Donkey Kong. https://www.zerohedge.com/political/...mes-excoriates

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Harper's Letters

What needs to be understood is there are a large number of "protesters" whose whole career is having something to protest against...

jpatter666, can you help understand more about that?
I live in a state capital, and most evenings and weekends in June there were a few thousand people gathered by the state house carrying signs and chanting.
Were a large number of these people being paid? How many? Who paid them? What fraction of them deserve the air quotes around the work "protesters"?

My question is sincere; I'm not sure which people you are referring to and how many there might be. Thanks.

[shiny!]

Re: The Harper's Letters

The snowflakes don't want safety; they want a social bubble that serves as an echo chamber. If they get the governmental and societal change that they're rioting over, their problems will most certainly be solved when they are executed in concentration camps. I've seen this story many times and I know useful idiots when I see them. Afterwards, a new generation of useful idiots will say, "We didn't do it right the last time!" just as this generation's useful idiots are saying about the last generations' failures.

I didn't see this before- we posted at the same time. You're totally right. sigh.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: The Harper's Letters

I didn't see this before- we posted at the same time. You're totally right. sigh.

Perhaps because of my different experience from most Americans, it's very obvious that what is going on right now has a lot of troubling similarities to the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The problem with the protesters is that they either are utterly ignorant of history or they have read the history but fail to learn the correct lesson. [Interestingly enough, that is exactly the problem with the Chinese even today.] The Red Guard did not fare all that well after the Cultural Revolution finally ended. In fact, the vast majority became China's Lost Generation, a group of people with zero useful skills and who actively attacked or destroyed things and institutions that would have provided them a better life. I have to wonder if any of the Red Guard entered the halls of power in the CCP Politburo where they could enjoy a life of ease.

When I read the Harper's open letter on the day it was released, the hypocrisy was almost immediately apparent. Within the first two paragraphs, they had to say, "Orange Man bad," even though that is totally irrelevant to the point they are trying to make. Has cancel culture and shutting down people's voices been a Trumpian or Republican thing? I'd like to see one real example of such a thing yet it is utterly trivial to find examples of where the roles are reversed. It is the insane left's Red Guard going after "degenerates" and they have started turning on themselves that really prompted the Harper's letter. Hilariously, some signatories retracted their endorsement of the letter after they saw other signatories they didn't like. Evidently, even if something is objectively good--say, a pollution-free environment--it becomes something that cannot be endorsed or maybe even something that must be rejected if it is endorsed by someone whom one does not like.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Harper's Letters

.. Has ...shutting down people's voices been a ... Republican thing? I'd like to see one real example of such a thing ...

With the greatest respect Milton, it's easy to find examples of republicans shutting down people's voices.

1. Ag-Gag laws making it illegal to photograph or film a factory farm to document problems with animal waste contaminating the environment.
2. Dickey Amendment makes it illegal for CDC to spend money reducing gun violence
3. Restrictions against teaching birth control and human sexuality in public schools
4. Restrictions on teaching evolution in public schools
5. Requirements for physicians to make a morality speech or perform medically unnecessary procedures prior to performing an abortion
6. the quiet suspension in 2019 of the US debt ceiling until July 2021 to avoid any need to raise it or talk about it

[Milton Kuo]

Re: The Harper's Letters

With the greatest respect Milton, it's easy to find examples of republicans shutting down people's voices.

1. Ag-Gag laws making it illegal to photograph or film a factory farm to document problems with animal waste contaminating the environment.
2. Dickey Amendment makes it illegal for CDC to spend money reducing gun violence
3. Restrictions against teaching birth control and human sexuality in public schools
4. Restrictions on teaching evolution in public schools
5. Requirements for physicians to make a morality speech or perform medically unnecessary procedures prior to performing an abortion
6. the quiet suspension in 2019 of the US debt ceiling until July 2021 to avoid any need to raise it or talk about it

Thank you. These are interesting examples but, in my opinion, they are not in the same vein as what's going on right now with the insane left. Thing is, I don't agree with most of the policies you list above. The only ones that might be sensible are:

The Dickey Amendment. How is it going to reduce gun violence? By taking away my second amendment rights? By developing a vaccine against gun violence? I am under the impression that the CDC is charged with dealing with diseases that are caused by pathogens.

The suspension of the debt ceiling. Is this is purely a Republican thing or is it bilateral? I suspect most people are very concerned about the exploding government debt but it seems the alternative is a government shutdown and a game of brinksmanship on "defaulting" of US Treasury debt. I'd like to see massive budget cuts in the military and an end to corporate welfare, with corporate welfare admittedly a Republican specialty. Outside of the kooks in Congress, I suspect many--and maybe even most--people who lean conservative or are registered Republicans feel the same way. I'm going to open my mouth and see if you can make me look foolish again. Are there widespread riots, looting, threats of physical harm, or threats of destroying one's career from conservative-leaning people demanding more corporate welfare, more wars, incurring more government debt, religion in schools, or increasing the federal government budget deficit?

Suspension of the debt ceiling has not impacts the vast majority of Americans from talking about it, expressing any opinion they like without fear of physical harm or threat of losing one's livelihood. The people affected, I guess, would be congressmen.

I don't see people losing their jobs, threatened with losing their jobs, or having their lives threatened if they speak out against any of what you say. What do you say about JK Rowling's situation where saying that a woman is not just a person who just declares himself a woman is threatened with physical violence and potentially losing one's career (at least Rowling is ultra wealthy so she will not be financially harmed)? What about the situation where people are forced to use imaginary pronouns when referencing someone when talking about them? How about the insanity in the comic book industry and Hollywood; and American colleges where tenured professors are threatened with violence and calls for their firing are made if they merely state an unpopular (at the school) opinion?

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Harper's Letters

...Are there widespread riots, looting, threats of physical harm, or threats of destroying one's career from conservative-leaning people...I don't see people losing their jobs, threatened with losing their jobs, or having their lives threatened if they speak out against any of what you say....

Milton I would never intend to make you look foolish. You are one my favorite iTulip members and I enjoy your posts greatly. But it seems you might be off the mark somewhat here saying that liberal cancel culture is somehow worse than that practiced by conservatives.

1. Dr George Tiller's workplace was picketed by conservative christians for 5 years from 2004 to 2009. One of them killed him in 2009. Other clinics have been bombed, other doctors have been murdered, and pickets have been ongoing across the US all of my adult life - that's 40 years.

2. The president spoke about Collin Kapernick saying "Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, 'Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, out, he's fired. He's fired'". Mr Kapernick was indeed fired and has never worked since.

3. In 2003, the musical act "The DIxie Chicks" were boycotted by conservative fans and radio stations; their shows were cancelled; and their career ended for many years.

4. Ohio's public health director received death threats and had crowds picket outside her home because of her actions for public health.

5. In 2017 an islamic center in minnesota was bombed

6. In 2015 white supremacist Dylan Roof killed 9 people in a church because they had black skin

In an earlier post jpatter66 mentioned Yonatan Zunger's writings on this stuff so I looked it up. Fascinating. His concept of tolerance being a treaty more than a moral imperative is pretty powerful to explain current events.

All the best to you and yours.

[jpatter666]

Re: The Harper's Letters

jpatter666, can you help understand more about that?
I live in a state capital, and most evenings and weekends in June there were a few thousand people gathered by the state house carrying signs and chanting.
Were a large number of these people being paid? How many? Who paid them? What fraction of them deserve the air quotes around the work "protesters"?

My question is sincere; I'm not sure which people you are referring to and how many there might be. Thanks.

Ohio, I will upfront admit my views are based on what I've seen and not factual evidence. That said, I'd feel fairly comfortable betting large sums of money on it.

I clearly remember when the Supreme Court legitimized gay marriage my wife commented 'thank god that social battle is over.'

I laughed out loud. Told her that too many people made too much money battling for gay rights. That battle might be over, but they will quickly find a new one. Probably trans rights.

And here we are.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Harper's Letters

Ohio, I will upfront admit my views are based on what I've seen and not factual evidence. That said, I'd feel fairly comfortable betting large sums of money on it.

I clearly remember when the Supreme Court legitimized gay marriage my wife commented 'thank god that social battle is over.'

I laughed out loud. Told her that too many people made too much money battling for gay rights. That battle might be over, but they will quickly find a new one. Probably trans rights.

And here we are.

Thanks jpatter666. All the best to you both.

[Techdread]

Re: The Harper's Letters

i think what turned the 2016 election was 2 things: a particularly unlikeable Democratic candidate and belief nonetheless in the inevitability of her victory, allowing for non-voting and 3rd party voting to be seen as harmless protest.

and i suggest you look up the "night of the long knives" and ask whether you really want to call forth such cold-blooded and murderous violence, even as metaphor. there are many other terms and phrases you might have chosen which are not as repulsive as that one.

also, did any of the commenters here actually READ jk rowling's letter? i read it as an appeal for tolerance, openness, and free expression FOR OTHERS AS WELL AS YOURSELF, and it appears to me that the comments made here in response exhibit none of those things.

It seems the older we get the more conservative and cold-minded we become.

Whats so bad about being tolerant to others and their feelings?

[jpatter666]

Re: The Harper's Letters

It seems the older we get the more conservative and cold-minded we become.

Whats so bad about being tolerant to others and their feelings?

I've found the older I get the more open-minded and tolerant I've become because I've experienced more, traveled more and met other people more. But if you've done nothing but live in your own local bubble your entire life, I could see that happening.

[edit] I will note that perhaps I have become more cold-blooded and cynical on fantasy social engineering dreams, having seen how much of the rest of the world lives. My wife works in international development and we've been to far too many of the hellholes of the world. Very few of these young Jacobins would survive a week.

On the other hand, we're currently seeing the cold-blooded certainty of youth in its current intolerance of anything outside their own set of beliefs.