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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    In the real world, NYC had some big problems in the 60's-70's-80's in terms of domestic/OCONUS terrorist networks, public antipathy against police, corruption, bankruptcy, blight, and murders committed against the public and police.

    for all the bad today, there was a lot of bad then as well.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakedaemonian View Post
    In the real world, NYC had some big problems in the 60's-70's-80's in terms of domestic/OCONUS terrorist networks, public antipathy against police, corruption, bankruptcy, blight, and murders committed against the public and police.

    for all the bad today, there was a lot of bad then as well.
    Yeah, it was crazy until Deke and Billy D took out Wulfgar. Now the city sleeps.


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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    5 seperate bombings in NYC in 3 months in 1969.

    Several dozens of politically motivated violent incidents that included bombings and assassinations in the 70's from a wide range of groups such as Weathermen, JDL, FALN separatists, Black Panthers, foreign intelligence, and others.

    A bit more 3 dimensional than 2 dimensional celluloid.

    NYC survived it then and will survive it now. And at the moment the recent trials and tribulations pale compared to 35-45 years ago.

    Just as crisis in the Middle East pales compared to the headlines of Appeox 100 days in late 1979 and early 1980 with the Grand Mosque Seizure In Mecca, the Soviet break-in to Afghan on Xmas Eve, theUS embassy seizure on the heels of the Iranian Revolution(and failed hostage rescue), and the burning of the US Embassy in Pakistan.

    We survived then, we will survive now.

    Historical perspective can offer some rational perspective.

    So as far as movie references go, we're not exactly on the precipice of a Soylent Green lifestyle.
    Last edited by lakedaemonian; 12-31-14 at 05:22 AM.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    the violence of the new york city police intervention at columbia university in 1968, ending the sit-ins and occupation of university buildings, fed into the police="pigs" and the general anti-vietnam-war, anti-u.s.-gov't, anti-official-authority narrative of the late 1960's and early 1970's. meanwhile, near yale university in new haven connecticut, 4000 national guard troops and military tanks occupied the city during the murder trial of several members of the black panther party. in chicago, the street demonstrations and violent police actions, centered on the 1968 democratic convention, were broadcast live to the whole nation.

    the anti-war movement, the public protests and burning of draft cards, the black power movement, the law-flouting drug culture among white youth, the mythological bra-burning of the very real feminist movement - all served to reinforce the anti-authority stance of a broad swath of society. all the rules were questioned, and the conformity and corporate culture of the 1950's were very much laid to rest. the police were both symbols of, and enforcers of, the old order.

    we are a long way from those times. yes, there is ongoing tension between many police departments and the populations they are either subjugating or supporting, depending on local factors and your personal point of view. but there's a lot more "thank you for your service" for both police and military now. the deaths of so many police and firemen attempting to rescue people in the world trade towers was an important and symbolic moment in many, many ways. [though it's worth mentioning that the people they went in to save were the kind of people who worked in the world trade center, not the kind of people who live in

    the relationship between the police and the communities in nyc will continue to evolve.
    Last edited by jk; 12-31-14 at 02:10 PM.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    911 was a "long time ago" for some people.........Its what they face today, can't get a job..rise up & protest...then they come into contact with the Police. Suddenly their view changes:-


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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    No editorial comment. Just remembering old movies, is all. But since you mentioned it, how many of those incidents do you think were are result of egg breaking and omelet making? Half? A third?

    It's interesting to speak of of historical and rational perspective but how is it advanced when critical information is not mentioned? Take for instance the nurturing by intelligence and secret police agencies of groups like the JDL. Is there no relevance in the fact that Meyer Kahane was on the Bureau's Division Five payroll since the early 60s? Would knowing that Kahane's best buddy and co-JDL founder Joseph Churba had a career that spanned from from Air Force intelligence to the Reagan campaign, the Arms Control and Development Agency and several Moonie-financed think tanks be significant? We now have documents from Division Five detailing close cooperation between the Bureau and the JDL. Is that relevant?

    And what was this coordination and cooperation all about? Neutralizing the Black Panther Party and the antiwar movement, among other things. So what sort of historical and rational perspective would one gain, say regarding the BPP and the antiwar movement, without having knowledge of Hoover's terrorism campaign? Is it relevant that the WUO split with SDS and move to armed resistance came on the heels of Fred Hampton's assassination and the attack on the Panther's 41st and Central HQ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
    No editorial comment. Just remembering old movies, is all. But since you mentioned it, how many of those incidents do you think were are result of egg breaking and omelet making? Half? A third?

    It's interesting to speak of of historical and rational perspective but how is it advanced when critical information is not mentioned? Take for instance the nurturing by intelligence and secret police agencies of groups like the JDL. Is there no relevance in the fact that Meyer Kahane was on the Bureau's Division Five payroll since the early 60s? Would knowing that Kahane's best buddy and co-JDL founder Joseph Churba had a career that spanned from from Air Force intelligence to the Reagan campaign, the Arms Control and Development Agency and several Moonie-financed think tanks be significant? We now have documents from Division Five detailing close cooperation between the Bureau and the JDL. Is that relevant?

    And what was this coordination and cooperation all about? Neutralizing the Black Panther Party and the antiwar movement, among other things. So what sort of historical and rational perspective would one gain, say regarding the BPP and the antiwar movement, without having knowledge of Hoover's terrorism campaign? Is it relevant that the WUO split with SDS and move to armed resistance came on the heels of Fred Hampton's assassination and the attack on the Panther's 41st and Central HQ?
    for me, these facts are just more evidence for the very obvious cultural/power struggles of that era, with each side using the tools at hand. is there another conclusion you want to draw?

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    ... is there another conclusion you want to draw?
    The good guys won?



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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
    The good guys won?
    i wasn't thinking about winning or losing. various forces were in conflict. some of those conflicts have been ameliorated, some suppressed, some aggravated, and new conflicts have emerged. life goes on.

    my main point was to say, "no, today isn't like the '70s" - which is my response to the subject of this thread.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
    No editorial comment. Just remembering old movies, is all. But since you mentioned it, how many of those incidents do you think were are result of egg breaking and omelet making? Half? A third?

    It's interesting to speak of of historical and rational perspective but how is it advanced when critical information is not mentioned? Take for instance the nurturing by intelligence and secret police agencies of groups like the JDL. Is there no relevance in the fact that Meyer Kahane was on the Bureau's Division Five payroll since the early 60s? Would knowing that Kahane's best buddy and co-JDL founder Joseph Churba had a career that spanned from from Air Force intelligence to the Reagan campaign, the Arms Control and Development Agency and several Moonie-financed think tanks be significant? We now have documents from Division Five detailing close cooperation between the Bureau and the JDL. Is that relevant?

    And what was this coordination and cooperation all about? Neutralizing the Black Panther Party and the antiwar movement, among other things. So what sort of historical and rational perspective would one gain, say regarding the BPP and the antiwar movement, without having knowledge of Hoover's terrorism campaign? Is it relevant that the WUO split with SDS and move to armed resistance came on the heels of Fred Hampton's assassination and the attack on the Panther's 41st and Central HQ?
    I'm really not interested in another guided tour down a one sided, one eyed rabbit warren with you.

    I'm well aware of many mistakes made by government during that period of time.

    It's quite unfortunate(and quite telling) that you completely neglect the neon sign doctrine that many of these organizations proudly displayed at the time, which was a goal of violently overthrowing the country.

    Which is not only illegal, but the kind of thing that logically compels an overwhelming and decisive response.

    Expecting a government to play entirely by the rules when those violently opposing it have burned the same rule book is dangerously naive.

    If you wish to continue down this path, I'd suggest opening your other closed eye to the mashup of political revolutionary violence committed by Weather Underground, BPP, BLA, and others that was thankfully extinguished, albeit with residual cancerous cells found in the form of convicted murderer Kathy Boudin teaching at Columbia University, convicted murderer Assata Shakur still harbored by Castro's Cuba, convicted murderer and airline hijacker George Wright still harbored OCONUS, airline hijacker Catherine Marie Kerkow whereabouts unknown, etc.

    Your frequent diatribes on complex right wing information operations might also carry a little more weight if you balance it with some layman simple "useful idiot" operations such as those conducted by Bert Schneider at the 1974 Oscar Awards(his harboring of fugitives who committed acts of political violence is another story), the Jane Fonda fiasco that will haunt her for eternity, and the considerable information operations support for the likes of BPP/BLA/etc offered by the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, North Korea, Algeria, etc. for just a bit of balance to go with your one dimensional attacks on "The Man".

    It's unfortunate this thread is quickly turning into another mess.

    It could have been an excellent platform to compare/contrast the 60's/70's US(as well as growing to include the 70's/80's Wester Europe) with today.

    As the contrasts between then and now provides quite a few "glass half full" as well as "glass half empty" comparison opportunities, as well as possible lens into the "possible", "likely", and "highly likely" near future.

    Many look back with fondness at the 60's-70's US and for all the strong middle class job opportunities and low multiple of average incomes to purchase the average house, there were some very dark patches, much like the different ones that exist today.

    We are quickly approaching the 3rd generation(at least experiences by the west) of irregular warfare since the end of WWII.

    The first was the battle for influence and control over a wrecked Western Europe that was a direct continuation from the official end of WWII due to its initial strong vulnerabilities to being aggressively undermined(in a two way street with examples in a split Germany, Ukraine, and Albania to name a few) in Italy and Greece by a competing communist system.

    The second was the battle that sprang from a combination of racial inequality and university incubated counter-culture/establishment movements some with direct and considerable external support from competing and sometimes partnered communist networks, just as the US was working to undermine(eventually with great success) the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact as exemplified in Poland with Solidarity.

    The third, in my opinion, will consist of a combination of vulnerabilities stemming from economic inequality and university(and university graduate) incubated movements sparked by student debt indentured slavery and other directly related movements to support the dismantling of US geopolitical/military power which could be leveraged cheaply and from a distance by competing networks such as Russia, Iran, China....just as the US is working to undermine them all in return to a greater or lesser degree.

    The US 60's/70's and the Western European 70's/80's possess some incredibly rich history that offer some fantastic lessons and opportunities for us to avoid repeating them.

    It's been my experience that a one eyed lefty is just as dangerous as an inflexible right winger(assuming they are both equidistant from the centre).

    I try to view it with both eyes wide open.

    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    i wasn't thinking about winning or losing. various forces were in conflict. some of those conflicts have been ameliorated, some suppressed, some aggravated, and new conflicts have emerged. life goes on.

    my main point was to say, "no, today isn't like the '70s" - which is my response to the subject of this thread.

    I don't know......I reckon a very close inspection of the incubation of movements in the 60's/70's would show a clear parallel then to the potential now and in the near future.

    Human physiology has not changed since the 70's, so it's safe to say the psychology has not changed either.

    The process of development is like a ladder:

    grievances/deprivation
    thwarted attempts at improvement
    displaced aggression
    engagement with more radical ideology/solutions
    recruitment
    violence

    People in the west have a hard time understanding or accepting(in a detached/clinical educational sense) the path towards political violence exhibited by many in the 3rd world.

    Did the late 60's/early 70's represent the best single western mass industrialized radicalization example of that?

    1,000,000 protest peacefully(and most importantly, legally)
    100,000 protest peacefully, repeatedly
    10,000 protest and conduct examples of civil disobedience
    1000 protest and conduct civil disobedience to the point of arrest
    100 protest, conduct civil disobedience to the point of arrest, and accept others using violence to achieve goals
    10 conduct acts of political violence
    1 leads the effort to conduct political violence

    The ratio is artificial, but the basic framework was relevant in the 60's/70's and could very well be relevant today.

    Isn't the only difference the specific conditions of social vulnerability that can lead to social upheaval/disruption?

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    i don't see much social upheaval in the u.s. in recent months there have been some demonstrations relating to racial issues, profiling, the militarization of police and so on, a bit of looting perhaps, but little else. the occupy movement was peaceful and disorganized, and quickly stamped out by the authorities. 1999 saw some demonstrations in seattle against the wto, with some vandalism. i haven't seen anything to compare to the late '60s-early '70s confrontations i listed above, each of which was a manifestation of deep rooted conflicts involving broad swaths of society.

    there was a lot of talk not long ago about the 1% and the 99%, but even that seems to have died down. elizabeth warren makes some speeches, but the progressive wing of the democratic party is moribund. employment numbers are up, god knows maybe even wages will go up before the decade is over.

    here's a quote from a quick google search:

    Americans are more optimistic about the U.S. economy than they have been in years, and that upbeat mood has pushed President Obama’s job-approval level to its highest point since the spring of 2013, according to a CNN/Opinion Research poll released Tuesday afternoon.

    so where's the upheaval? have i overlooked it?

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    i don't see much social upheaval in the u.s. in recent months there have been some demonstrations relating to racial issues, profiling, the militarization of police and so on, a bit of looting perhaps, but little else. the occupy movement was peaceful and disorganized, and quickly stamped out by the authorities. 1999 saw some demonstrations in seattle against the wto, with some vandalism. i haven't seen anything to compare to the late '60s-early '70s confrontations i listed above, each of which was a manifestation of deep rooted conflicts involving broad swaths of society.

    there was a lot of talk not long ago about the 1% and the 99%, but even that seems to have died down. elizabeth warren makes some speeches, but the progressive wing of the democratic party is moribund. employment numbers are up, god knows maybe even wages will go up before the decade is over.

    here's a quote from a quick google search:

    Americans are more optimistic about the U.S. economy than they have been in years, and that upbeat mood has pushed President Obama’s job-approval level to its highest point since the spring of 2013, according to a CNN/Opinion Research poll released Tuesday afternoon.

    so where's the upheaval? have i overlooked it?
    I'm thinking near future.

    University students/graduates failing to achieve "escape velocity" in terms of student debt principal/interest versus degree related increased income.

    Nearly a trillion in student debt.

    -----

    Over educated uni graduates fighting over poor paying jobs(wage stagnation in even nominal dollars for 20 years) with squeezed working class minorities and single mothers(2nd rise of racism, white privilege, glass ceiling feminism).

    -----

    How long can EU countries sustain very high unemployment rates in youth cohorts and young adults before facing negative consequences?

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakedaemonian View Post
    I'm thinking near future.

    University students/graduates failing to achieve "escape velocity" in terms of student debt principal/interest versus degree related increased income.

    Nearly a trillion in student debt.

    -----

    Over educated uni graduates fighting over poor paying jobs(wage stagnation in even nominal dollars for 20 years) with squeezed working class minorities and single mothers(2nd rise of racism, white privilege, glass ceiling feminism).

    -----

    How long can EU countries sustain very high unemployment rates in youth cohorts and young adults before facing negative consequences?
    i think that there has been a major revision in the young's expectations of their futures, especially a lowering of expectations about their economic futures.

    a google search on: generation americans lower living standards than parents
    reveals a slew of articles on the fact that millennials are not doing as well as their parents, and that this lowered trajectory will continue into the future.

    otoh, a search on: millennial optimism
    produces numerous reports of an upbeat mood among this cohort. i think they see the world differently than their parents did. one part of that is that they are more social, more networked. this is a product of their enhanced means of staying in touch on top of having had that same ability in their youths, when peer relationships have always been paramount. they just never had to grow out of it. this provides a lot of social-psychological support. also, their response to the loss of job security has been to see themselves as entrepreneurs, their own economic agents. this is further facilitated by the so-called "sharing economy."

    our tendency in discussions here has been to see the sharing economy as an adaptation to lowered means - e.g. you make the rent by letting strangers stay in your spare room now and then; you make your car payment by being an uber driver now and then, when "surge pricing" goes high enough to make it worth your while. they redefine this as entrepreneurship.

    many years ago, here on itulip, there were discussions about how people would redefine their values to adapt to lower incomes, how values would shift to social relations and perhaps spiritual values instead of material consumption. i think i see both of those things in progress. the spiritual i think is a big part of what underlies ecological/green values, and it also fits with the social "we're all in this together" attitude.

    i don't see the revolution coming.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk View Post
    i think that there has been a major revision in the young's expectations of their futures, especially a lowering of expectations about their economic futures.

    a google search on: generation americans lower living standards than parents
    reveals a slew of articles on the fact that millennials are not doing as well as their parents, and that this lowered trajectory will continue into the future.

    otoh, a search on: millennial optimism
    produces numerous reports of an upbeat mood among this cohort. i think they see the world differently than their parents did. one part of that is that they are more social, more networked. this is a product of their enhanced means of staying in touch on top of having had that same ability in their youths, when peer relationships have always been paramount. they just never had to grow out of it. this provides a lot of social-psychological support. also, their response to the loss of job security has been to see themselves as entrepreneurs, their own economic agents. this is further facilitated by the so-called "sharing economy."

    our tendency in discussions here has been to see the sharing economy as an adaptation to lowered means - e.g. you make the rent by letting strangers stay in your spare room now and then; you make your car payment by being an uber driver now and then, when "surge pricing" goes high enough to make it worth your while. they redefine this as entrepreneurship.

    many years ago, here on itulip, there were discussions about how people would redefine their values to adapt to lower incomes, how values would shift to social relations and perhaps spiritual values instead of material consumption. i think i see both of those things in progress. the spiritual i think is a big part of what underlies ecological/green values, and it also fits with the social "we're all in this together" attitude.

    i don't see the revolution coming.
    I don't see revolution either, in a number of ways we are much better off(and in some ways worse) than 40-45 years ago.

    But just as we didn't have revolution 40-45 years ago, it certainly didn't stop a few from making a violent concerted effort.

    The more networked and social a generational cohort is, the greater the speed at which a few could attempt another concerted effort and achieve some momentum from a very small base.

    I would agree that the slower the frog is boiled, the less likely there is to be a backlash, but straight lines are hard to find or manage.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakedaemonian View Post
    I'm really not interested in another guided tour down a one sided, one eyed rabbit warren with you...
    It's a bore, I admit. And I expect it would still be so even if the chasm between us wasn't as unbridgeable as it seems to be.

    Anyway, it's hardly worth mussing one's hair over considering nothing has changed or will change in how business is done. The owners of the country want it this way so that's the way it's going to be. The rest is up to God.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post

    Anyway, it's hardly worth mussing one's hair over considering nothing has changed or will change in how business is done. The owners of the country want it this way so that's the way it's going to be. The rest is up to God.
    + 1
    Last edited by Forrest; 01-06-15 at 12:50 AM.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakedaemonian View Post
    ...

    It's quite unfortunate (and quite telling) that you completely neglect the neon sign doctrine that many of these organizations proudly displayed at the time, which was a goal of violently overthrowing the country.

    Which is not only illegal, but the kind of thing that logically compels an overwhelming and decisive response.

    Expecting a government to play entirely by the rules when those violently opposing it have burned the same rule book is dangerously naive
    .

    If you wish to continue down this path, I'd suggest opening your other closed eye to the mashup of political revolutionary violence committed by Weather Underground, BPP, BLA, and others that was thankfully extinguished, albeit with residual cancerous cells found in the form of convicted murderer Kathy Boudin teaching at Columbia University, convicted murderer Assata Shakur still harbored by Castro's Cuba, convicted murderer and airline hijacker George Wright still harbored OCONUS, airline hijacker Catherine Marie Kerkow whereabouts unknown, etc.

    Your frequent diatribes on complex right wing information operations might also carry a little more weight if you balance it with some layman simple "useful idiot" operations such as those conducted by Bert Schneider at the 1974 Oscar Awards (his harboring of fugitives who committed acts of political violence is another story), the Jane Fonda fiasco that will haunt her for eternity, and the considerable information operations support for the likes of BPP/BLA/etc., offered by the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, North Korea, Algeria, etc. for just a bit of balance to go with your one dimensional attacks on "The Man".

    ...

    Many look back with fondness at the 60's-70's US and for all the strong middle class job opportunities and low multiple of average incomes to purchase the average house, there were some very dark patches, much like the different ones that exist today.

    We are quickly approaching the 3rd generation(at least experiences by the west) of irregular warfare since the end of WWII.

    The first was the battle for influence and control over a wrecked Western Europe that was a direct continuation from the official end of WWII due to its initial strong vulnerabilities to being aggressively undermined (in a two way street with examples in a split Germany, Ukraine, and Albania to name a few) in Italy and Greece by a competing communist system.

    The second was the battle that sprang from a combination of racial inequality and university incubated counter-culture/establishment movements some with direct and considerable external support from competing and sometimes partnered communist networks, just as the US was working to undermine (eventually with great success) the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact as exemplified in Poland with Solidarity.

    The third, in my opinion, will consist of a combination of vulnerabilities stemming from economic inequality and university(and university graduate) incubated movements sparked by student debt indentured slavery and other directly related movements to support the dismantling of US geopolitical/military power which could be leveraged cheaply and from a distance by competing networks such as Russia, Iran, China....just as the US is working to undermine them all in return to a greater or lesser degree.

    The US 60's/70's and the Western European 70's/80's possess some incredibly rich history that offer some fantastic lessons and opportunities for us to avoid repeating them.

    It's been my experience that a one eyed lefty is just as dangerous as an inflexible right winger (assuming they are both equidistant from the center).

    I try to view it with both eyes wide open. ...


    Isn't the only difference the specific conditions of social vulnerability that can lead to social upheaval/disruption?

    +1.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
    +1.
    You seriously expect anyone to believe that the greatest power in the history of the world;


    • standing at the absolute zenith of its economic, military, intellectual and spiritual confidence;
    • in possession of the most sophisticated intelligence and internal security apparatus money could buy;
    • led by men of imagination, zeal, dedication and courage;
    • operating an exquisitely tuned and centrally controlled national propaganda enterprise;


    was or could ever be under any existential threat from any of the rag-tag and tiny group of down and out sixties radicals worthy of a name? What tiredly preposterous and self-serving cant!

    Surely there could no better evidence of the contempt you hold for us all. It's a slander on the intelligence of decent people everywhere, contrary to an Everest of documentary evidence, illogical, fundamentally lacking in veracity, and would I think be hilarious if it were not the justification for crimes unspeakable and suffering immeasurable.

    For me this is sufficient proof that we exist in a separate reality where objective and verifiable facts are rendered meaningless and across which no meaningful transmission of information is possible.

    In short, this is bullshit and any further discussion on this matter is a waste of time. FRED, I humbly request that this thread be moved to Political Abyss, post haste.

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    Default Re: New York back to the 70's?

    I submit that while this "rag tag group of down and out sixties radicals" may not have succeeded in "overthrow of the US government", they did receive a pretty big consolation prize - they were awarded control over higher education and the academies!

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