Quote Originally Posted by astonas View Post
The problem is that professional deniers' "science" almost never reaches even that incredibly low (high-school) bar.
Understood. I've been there but I think I'm over it. We should all understand that there is a complete impasse. We may even enjoy our iTulip denier's posts on other subjects but when they write on this subject, all I hear is politically based nonsense. Of course, that's all they hear when they read our posts unless we stick completely to the science without an opinion either way. The physics is undeniable. As Feynman said, "Nature cannot be fooled.".

I get the backlash to this issue from a political point of view. Every denier is at their core a small government, "drown it in a bathtub" soul. I don't completely disagree with that sentiment but I want to also be able to drown JPM, GS, C, etc. etc. and not worry about them either. AGW is a very problematic issue for small government, "fortress America", folks as it will take massive cooperation among governments around the world to begin to resolve this issue and the fraud inherent in the solution will be equally massive. Almost all denial arguments are really against big government intervention. It's just easier to say AGW isn't real, or it doesn't matter or the scientists are a fraud.

I think we could better argue this issue if we all agreed that we fall into two camps. We either think the solution will be much worse than the problem or we think the problem is much worse than the solution. Neither side wants to harm humanity, we just have a very different idea of where the problem lies. If we can mostly agree to use this frame and get away from the denier vs. alarmist frame there may be something to discuss. Until then I'll be happy to occasionally point out the fallacies when deniers rape the science in their fever to kill off big, lefty government.