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Torching Healthcare

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  • Torching Healthcare

    In operating rooms and on hospital wards across the country, physicians and other health providers typically help one another in patient care. But in an increasingly common practice that some medical experts call drive-by doctoring, assistants, consultants and other hospital employees are charging patients or their insurers hefty fees. They may be called in when the need for them is questionable. And patients usually do not realize they have been involved or are charging until the bill arrives.

    The practice increases revenue for physicians and other health care workers at a time when insurers are cutting down reimbursement for many services. The surprise charges can be especially significant - 20 to 40 times the usual local rates and (they) often collect the full amount, or a substantial portion.

    “The notion is you can make end runs around price controls by increasing the number of things you do and bill for,” said Dr. Darshak Sanghavi, a health policy expert at the Brookings Institution until recently. This contributes to the nation’s $2.8 trillion in annual health costs.

    Insurers, saying the surprise charges have proliferated, have filed lawsuits challenging them. In recent years, unexpected out-of-network charges have become the top complaint to the New York State agency that regulates insurance companies. Multiple state health insurance commissioners have tried to limit patients’ liability, but lobbying by the health care industry stymies their efforts.

    “This has gotten really bad, and it’s wrong,” said James J. Donelon, the Republican insurance commissioner of Louisiana. “But when you try to address it as a policy maker, you run into a hornet’s nest of financial interests.”

    A case in point:

    Before his three-hour neck surgery for herniated disks in December, Peter Drier, 37, signed a pile of consent forms. A bank technology manager who had researched his insurance coverage, Mr. Drier was prepared when the bills started arriving: $56,000 from Lenox Hill Hospital in Manhattan, $4,300 from the anesthesiologist and even $133,000 from his orthopedist, who he knew would accept a fraction of that fee.

    “I thought I understood the risks,” Mr. Drier, who lives in New York City, said later. “But this was just so wrong — I had no choice and no negotiating power.”

    In Mr. Drier’s case, the primary surgeon, Dr. Nathaniel L. Tindel, had said he would accept a negotiated fee determined through Mr. Drier’s insurance company, which ended up being about $6,200. (Mr. Drier had to pay $3,000 of that to meet his deductible.) But the assistant, Dr. Harrison T. Mu, was out of network and sent the $117,000 bill. Insurance experts say surgeons and assistants sometimes share proceeds from operations, but Dr. Tindel’s office says he and Dr. Mu do not.

    Dr. Mu’s office did not respond to requests for comment.

    The phenomenon can take many forms. In some instances, a patient may be lying on a gurney in the emergency room or in a hospital bed, unaware that all of the people in white coats or scrubs who turn up at the bedside will charge for their services. At times, a fully trained physician is called in when a resident or a nurse, who would not charge, would have sufficed. Services that were once included in the daily hospital rate are now often provided by contractors, and even many emergency rooms are staffed by out-of-network physicians who bill separately.

    Patricia Kaufman’s bills after a recent back operation at a Long Island hospital were rife with such charges, said her husband, Alan, who spent days sorting them out. Two plastic surgeons billed more than $250,000 to sew up the incision, a task done by a resident during previous operations for Ms. Kaufman’s chronic neurological condition.

    In the days after the operation, “a parade of doctors came by saying, ‘How are you,’ and they could be out of network or in network,” Mr. Kaufman said. “And then you get their bills. Who called them? Who are they?”

    Doctors’ offices often pursue patients for payment. Ms. Kaufman’s insurer paid about $10,000 to the plastic surgeons, who then sent a bill for the remainder. The couple, of Highland Park, N.J., refused to pay.

    When insurers intervene in a particular case, they say they have limited ability to fight back. Insurance examiners “are not in the room on the day of surgery to see the second surgeon walk into the room or why they were needed,” said Clare Krusing, a spokeswoman for America’s Health Insurance Plans, an industry group. And current laws do not require hospitals that join an insurance network to provide in-network doctors, labs or X-rays.

    Sometimes insurers just pay — to protect their customers, they say — which encourages the practice. When Mr. Drier complained to his insurer, Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield, that he should not have to pay the out-of-network assistant surgeon, Anthem agreed it was not his responsibility. Instead, the company cut a check to Dr. Mu for $116,862, the full amount.


    Examples:

    in network (out of network)

    muscle & skin graft $1,781 ($150,500)
    spinal fusion $5,893 ($115,625)
    gallbladder removal $1,892 ($44,000)
    breast lesion removal $688 ($18,500)

  • #2
    Re: Torching Healthcare

    Appalling. The hospitals need to be legally forced to work with the insurance company to coordinante what is needed and what is not; and to have some mechanism to make sure everything needed is with in network.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Torching Healthcare

      This exact thing happened to us. One time for me in the ER. The hospital ER was in my healthcare network. The doctor who treated me was not.

      Worse was when my husband had a hip replacement. At the surgeon's office he clearly told his doctor ahead of time that he would not pay for any out-of-network care.

      The second time he saw his doctor prior to surgery, the doctor introduced the assistant surgeon. My husband told them both that he was on Blue Cross and would not pay for any out-of-network care. They said they understood.

      In the pre-op ward while lying on the gurney, he clearly told the doctor, the anesthesiologist and everyone there once again that he would not pay for any providers not in Blue Cross. He literally said, "if anyone does anything for me when I'm unconscious and they're not in Blue Cross, they will not be paid for their services."

      After it was over, three months after the bills started coming, I noticed a large charge from the surgeon's office. We had already paid the deductible. I called them. They confirmed that the charges were for the assistant surgeon who was out-of-network. The one who looked my husband in the eye and nodded his head when my husband said he wouldn't pay anyone who was not on our Blue Cross plan.

      We refused to pay it. They got nasty. We demanded a refund of the prior two payments we'd unknowingly made to that surgeon. They refused to refund us. They bugged us for months. I told them exactly where to stick their bills.

      Two years later that surgeon did us one better. They let a rep from their artificial joint manufacturer take patient files "for research purposes." Names, addresses, SS#'s... all into a non-secured laptop which got stolen out of their office when the rep took a lunch break. They waited eight months before notifying their patients. They never even got a wrist slap.

      Since then, whenever I have to sign a hospital intake form that wants me to be responsible for all charges, in network or not, I cross out that line and write that I will not pay any out-of-network charges. Then I initial it. Then I sign it. Then I demand a copy. Usually they don't notice, but one time they did. The woman gave me grief and I threatened to walk out. She eventually caved.

      Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Torching Healthcare

        We all share a concern for cleanliness in the medical environment. Here we have one doctor's hands washing another.

        It's not difficult to image the private conversation among the "suffering low-pay insurance" physicians.

        "Bob, how can we be expected to maintain our lifestyles on group-leveraged rates. Outrageous."

        "Let me explain, Dick, there is a way . . ."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Torching Healthcare

          250.000 for a skin suture...i should become a surgeon again...
          Unless you socialize medicine you are fu......d

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Torching Healthcare

            Is there anything that legally prevents the creation of "independent health care cost negotiators/advocates"?

            Insurance companies negotiate costs/fees on behalf of individuals WITH insurance.

            What options do the people without insurance have to negotiate costs/fees?

            One or more folks on this forum suggested the separation between health care and employment which I reckon makes sense.

            Here in NZ we have universal health care that works reasonably well(it has its shortcomings).

            We also have strong consumer advocacy that extends to excessive/exorbitant fees in the finance industry.

            If the fee is unreasonably high and unable to be fairly justified, it can result in reimbursement and fines to the fee issuer.

            I know the US health care system is HUGE in value, jobs, and profits.

            But there's still huge profits to be made doing it better.

            1)Universal minimum coverage catastrophic care insurance policy for all with a reasonable deductible.

            2)Consumer advocacy tribunal for a reasonable price range for services/fees

            3)Common framework for health care record portability/security

            4)Facilitate, or simply get out of the way of locally owned cost efficient health care franchise network development

            5)Bulk buying prescription drug "Sam's Club" analogs

            6)Health care tort reform that focuses on making the patient physically whole, rather than financially(lawsuit lottery and egregious medical practice insurance costs), with the exception of the far more rare intentional torts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Torching Healthcare

              ​from a friend (retired air force pilot)

              Highway robbery. We watch the "this is not a bill" statements that come through on Medicare & TriCare For Life about 4 to 6 months and the charges are crazy. Lucky we keep a calendar so we can go back and see if we actually went to the Clinic or Hospital. This Obamacare is really a mess and I can see the changes made, were in favor of the Clinic & Hospital charges. Easy to spot on the blood tests alone.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Torching Healthcare

                Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
                Is there anything that legally prevents the creation of "independent health care cost negotiators/advocates"?
                If there isn't, a legal prevention would be quickly lobbied into existence, if needed.

                Full version of the article:
                http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/us...cal-bills.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Torching Healthcare

                  My father-in-law calls these Doctor pop-ins. When a patient is hospitalized there are many quick visits (pop-ins) by a number of different doctors who literally spend 1-2 minutes in the patients room, where the main focus of the visit is to sign the patient chart in order to get paid for your pop-in. These extra charges that doctors run up are good for the doctor and good for the hospital (there is no one looking out for the patient other than the patient and their close family members).

                  My father-in-law saw the run up in hospital fees when my mother-in-law was hospitalized for a stroke, and then again when he was hospitalized for open heart surgery.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Torching Healthcare

                    Don't sign stuff without reading it. Ask for the paperwork ahead of time.

                    When I had a recent surgery every doctor who was going to be "participating" in the surgery introduced themselves ahead of time, told me what they were going to do and about how much it was going to cost. There were no surprises.



                    It's funny, business lobbies government for special favors they use to take advantage of people. Some vocal people blame the business, but not the government who granted the favors, then propose to us that if that same government ran the whole show this stuff would stop. Right.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Torching Healthcare

                      Originally posted by LorenS View Post
                      It's funny, business lobbies government for special favors they use to take advantage of people. Some vocal people blame the business, but not the government who granted the favors, then propose to us that if that same government ran the whole show this stuff would stop. Right.....
                      Blaming the government is like blaming the gun that shot you. If I was buying the government to further my wealth and influence I'd be mighty happy to see critics blame the government, leaving me in the shadows . . . .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Torching Healthcare

                        Of course you blame government! Both parties are captured by special interests who buy power and influence over legislation and receive the spoils. Neither of them care about the citizenry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Torching Healthcare

                          Hopefully contributing to the conversation is the attached note from Doctorate person (note it is Ph.D. and not M.D.) part of Medical services in US.

                          A tale of 2 countries.pdf

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Torching Healthcare

                            Originally posted by srivatsan View Post
                            Hopefully contributing to the conversation is the attached note from Doctorate person (note it is Ph.D. and not M.D.) part of Medical services in US.

                            [ATTACH]5404[/ATTACH]

                            Excellent.

                            And this...http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com...atistics-facts

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