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Thread: Ej...................MIA ?

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by charliebrown View Post
    I remember growing up in the sixties and seventies. If we go back to that economic level things will actually improve.
    What would be the ramifications of going back to the level of medicine we had back in the sixties and seventies? By my recollection medicine then seemed pretty good- better than a lot of the world has now. Would it be adequate? Can we be happy with less extravagant medical care? I could be.

    If we went back to a simpler time where we paid the doctors and hospitals directly for what we needed... if we didn't demand so much heroic treatment at the end of life for conditions that aren't going to get better. I don't mean "death panels". I mean people being at peace with the imperfection of life and the natural inevitability death. Not demanding that they or their loved ones be kept alive literally "at all costs"...

    As part of creating a sustainable society, can we get behind the idea of using more of end-of-life medical resources for children and young parents?

    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny! View Post
    What would be the ramifications of going back to the level of medicine we had back in the sixties and seventies? By my recollection medicine then seemed pretty good- better than a lot of the world has now. Would it be adequate? Can we be happy with less extravagant medical care? I could be.
    How much is the cost of medical care the result of insane government policies and ruthless insurance companies, though? Death panels already exist with insurance companies being the gate keepers to life or death. Furthermore, at what point would you even draw the line on end of life conditions?

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
    ... and as usual people need to die for these wonderful things to happen.
    And there, in a nutshell, is why religion must be kept as far away from political and military decisions as possible. Religions that focus on a better hereafter tend to make light of how much blood must be shed in the present to bring it about.

    Listen to some Christian nut-jobs on the subject, and they actually appear to relish the idea of bringing about the end times. These are often far worse than the Islamic counterparts they usually blame for the conflict, who at least usually have some socioeconomic repression to legitimately struggle against.

    Walt Kelly famously wrote "we have met the enemy, and they is us." I wonder how many U.S. warmongers have managed to rise to even that level of self-awareness.
    Last edited by astonas; 08-27-12 at 11:47 PM.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BadJuju View Post
    How much is the cost of medical care the result of insane government policies and ruthless insurance companies, though? Death panels already exist with insurance companies being the gate keepers to life or death. Furthermore, at what point would you even draw the line on end of life conditions?
    Ruthless, greedy insurance companies- yes. They're a major part of the problem and they have so much influence in government that their removal is never part of proposed solutions. Insurance companies did not have so much influence back in the 60's and 70's. When I suggest going back to a simpler medical system, I mean a pre-FIRE medical system. If we could roll back the "F" in FIRE by by reinstating Glass-Steagall, could we also roll back the "I" by going back to a pre-FIRE medical system as well? More basic, decent care for everybody, fewer bells and whistles. What would be the ramifications? Good? Bad?

    One one hand, I think we don't need such exorbitantly expensive care because a lot of it is defensive medicine and/or price inflated by Insurance. Look at what Operation Smile accomplishes in primative-by-our-standards operating conditions.

    On the other hand, we're a sicker society now. We have more deadly bugs floating around, more serious illnesses, way more autoimmune disorders, cancer, diabetes and the like. So medical treatment a la the 60's might not be adequate.

    On the third hand, people didn't used to feel entitled to live forever. Before organ transplants and super-complex medicine came along, people expected to have illnesses, get old and die. That was normal life. Now, it seems people expect perfection, to live forever, and they want medicine to fix everything while concurrently living more unhealthful, disease-promoting lifestyles. Are we asking too much of medicine?

    I'm just throwing out questions here- not saying it should happen. Any doctors or experts in this field care to chime in?
    Last edited by shiny!; 08-28-12 at 10:34 AM. Reason: added my third hand

    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    There have been some advances in minimally invasive surgery and imaging I would hate to give up. I had an emergency appendectomy two years ago and was up and walking the next day. MRI images of my son's body led to a diagnosis and therapy. But ... I do agree too much of end life stuff. Both my parents died of cancer. My mom went for the agressive surguries and chemo only to spend the last months of her life sick, emaciated, and puking. My dad said "I'm not going through with that"
    and just let death come. When my time comes, I think I will go the 80/20 rule. Try something simple if it don't work Lord have mercy on my soul. I just hope my kiddles are indepent when the day comes, and I get to hold one grand child.

    The costs are way out of control. My apendectomy was billed to insurance at 50K. 40 years ago, I probably would have been cut clear across my abdomen and been
    bed ridden for a week and been in a lot of pain. I bet the bill would be closer to 5K. 45K for a week off of work and a little pain. Maybe it would be worth it.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by astonas View Post
    And there, in a nutshell, is why religion must be kept as far away from political and military decisions as possible. Religions that focus on a better hereafter tend to make light of how much blood must be shed in the present to bring it about.

    Listen to some Christian nut-jobs on the subject, and they actually appear to relish the idea of bringing about the end times. These are often far worse than the Islamic counterparts they usually blame for the conflict, who at least usually have some socioeconomic repression to legitimately struggle against.

    Walt Kelly famously wrote "we have met the enemy, and they is us." I wonder how many U.S. warmongers have managed to rise to even that level of self-awareness.
    I wonder if drugs are a problem too.

    http://www1.american.edu/ted/qat.htm

    "fantasies of personal supremacy."

    This is prevalent in the middle east and I wonder why this is never discussed as an issue trying to relate to this part of the world.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/nation/na-khat3

    So between religious lunatics and drug addled mania, its definitely time to be careful.

    "It is not coffee. It is definitely not like coffee," said Garrison Courtney, spokesman for the Drug Enforcement Administration. "It is the same drug used by young kids who go out and shoot people in Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan. It is something that gives you a heightened sense of invincibility, and when you look at those effects, you could take out the word 'khat' and put in 'heroin' or 'cocaine'."

    In Russia they drink too much and look what it does to them.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Astonas
    First you ought to read Eric postings and be respectful of those of other faiths be it Muslim, Christians Jews etc.
    second, before you attack a belief system read about it in their authoritative book be it the Koran Bible etc..
    The Christian bible does not teach a rush to war end times etc . Rather the teaching is just the opposite (e.g. 2 Peter 3:9)
    Finally I have no negative emotion or response to you rather I wish you all the best
    joe

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpetr48 View Post
    Astonas
    First you ought to read Eric postings and be respectful of those of other faiths be it Muslim, Christians Jews etc.
    second, before you attack a belief system read about it in their authoritative book be it the Koran Bible etc..
    The Christian bible does not teach a rush to war end times etc . Rather the teaching is just the opposite (e.g. 2 Peter 3:9)
    Finally I have no negative emotion or response to you rather I wish you all the best
    joe
    There are those that do teach these things under that label. I very well know since I grew up in such an environment, and I would pity the person that would believe I am not armed to debate this because I both believed and personally debunked end times madness in adulthood. Even if the sources are sound there are operating faiths that are dangerous to the rest of us. You are certainly correct that the Bible does not teach this. In fact it teaches that the end times are long past. However I know first hand how little the facts in the bible matter to these people.

    For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    Hebrews 9:26

    That is just one example, but it never matters. Millions believe that the anti-Christ is coming. Millions believe this in one of the biggest nuclear and military powers in the world. I was taught Russians were going to be part of Satan's army.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
    There are those that do teach these things under that label. I very well know since I grew up in such an environment, and I would pity the person that would believe I am not armed to debate this because I both believed and personally debunked end times madness in adulthood. Even if the sources are sound there are operating faiths that are dangerous to the rest of us. You are certainly correct that the Bible does not teach this. In fact it teaches that the end times are long past. However I know first hand how little the facts in the bible matter to these people.
    For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    Hebrews 9:26

    That is just one example, but it never matters. Millions believe that the anti-Christ is coming. Millions believe this in one of the biggest nuclear and military powers in the world. I was taught Russians were going to be part of Satan's army.

    You say there are thiose that these teach these things under that label. That is my point to Astonas these are not Christians. These are false teachers who the Bible says will be present (e.g. 1 timothy 1:6). Anyone who attempts to distort distract create fear from the gospel is to be examined. They are usually doing it for personal gain.

  10. #90
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    In Baptist seminiary the leading theory taught is that those end times in the bible refer to the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. This writing was meant for contemperaries, not some future generation 2000 years removed.

    Looking at prohpetic writing of revalation and trying to stuff them into current events, is sometimes referred to as "Newspaper Escatology" and rejected by most serious scholars.

    If us lowly, but egocentric humans think we can hurry the return of God, I have just one thing to say from a Yiddish Proverb
    "Man plans and God Laughs", or perhaps more fitting in this instance, "Man plans and God is P.O'd"
    Last edited by charliebrown; 08-28-12 at 07:14 PM.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by charliebrown View Post
    There have been some advances in minimally invasive surgery and imaging I would hate to give up. I had an emergency appendectomy two years ago and was up and walking the next day. MRI images of my son's body led to a diagnosis and therapy. But ... I do agree too much of end life stuff. Both my parents died of cancer. My mom went for the agressive surguries and chemo only to spend the last months of her life sick, emaciated, and puking. My dad said "I'm not going through with that"
    and just let death come. When my time comes, I think I will go the 80/20 rule. Try something simple if it don't work Lord have mercy on my soul. I just hope my kiddles are indepent when the day comes, and I get to hold one grand child.

    The costs are way out of control. My apendectomy was billed to insurance at 50K. 40 years ago, I probably would have been cut clear across my abdomen and been
    bed ridden for a week and been in a lot of pain. I bet the bill would be closer to 5K. 45K for a week off of work and a little pain. Maybe it would be worth it.
    My son's recent appendectomy billed out at around $23k (?) IIRC. In at 10PM, out at 2PM next day. I was stunned. In the end it cost significantly less, but still...

  12. #92
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    when I got all the bills I was floored too. 50K is a little high, but I know the bill started with a 4. I asked for the itemized bill thinking a mistake was made, and I could not find one. I laid in the ER forever 8 AM ... 2PM, and had some cat scans. I was also in an isolation room because the previous weekend I had contact with poision ivy and had a blistery rash on my arms. I told them what it was, but they didn't believe a non medical arm chair scientist. I think it was 2K out of pocket. I was in at 8 AM out by 12 PM the next day. Isolation room was billed out at around 3K if I remember correctly.

    I have to say that the instant I woke up after surgery I felt great. That burning hot coal in my gut was gone. That was the first time I ever felt like dancing after srugery.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by charliebrown View Post
    In Baptist seminiary the leading theory taught is that those end times in the bible refer to the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. This writing was meant for contemperaries, not some future generation 2000 years removed.

    Looking at prohpetic writing of revalation and trying to stuff them into current events, is sometimes referred to as "Newspaper Escatology" and rejected by most serious scholars.

    If us lowly, but egocentric humans think we can hurry the return of God, I have just one thing to say from a Yiddish Proverb
    "Man plans and God Laughs", or perhaps more fitting in this instance, "Man plans and God is P.O'd"
    Here is my Noahized version:
    Man scams and God puts man on a raft.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    wtf is this? i go away on vacation & you guys turn a thread into a contest over whose religious belief system is better?

    really?

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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by metalman View Post
    wtf is this? i go away on vacation & you guys turn a thread into a contest over whose religious belief system is better?

    really?
    Sorry metalman. Next time we'll be sure to wait, so you have a chance to join in. ;)

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Sorry mm, I get carried away. I do have mild add, spaceyness. No more

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Ej...................MIA ?

    Quote Originally Posted by charliebrown View Post
    Sorry mm, I get carried away. I do have mild add, spaceyness. No more
    no, really... all the arguing about who's god is better is truly innerestin'...



    ...in the 4th quarter of the jump ball.


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