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  • Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

    Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

    by Eric Janszen


    Inflation versus deflation debate keeps contrarian economics and finance pundits pontificating for ten fabulous years. Fed flushes banks with funds and a fresh flurry of articles fills the blogosphere. Finally, the "financial economy" enters.

    I’m glad to see the term “financial economy” enter the vocabulary in this inflation versus deflation discussion with a recent note I got from Aaron Krowne. We didn’t pick up on the idea until Bill Gross started talking about it in The Last Vigilante (Gross, Feb. 2004):
    “I would argue the most critical reformation in the past twenty years since Volcker’s prime has been the transition of the U.S. from a manufacturing/to a service/to a finance-based economy within the span of two decades. Purists will perhaps rightly quarrel with the chronology or maybe even the logic, but it seems to me in any case that the critical difference between then and now is that profits and employment – 2/3 of the critical constituents that a Fed Vigilante must protect (inflation being the third) – are now primarily a function of the amount of debt/leverage and its cost.”
    Perhaps Gross had been reading Kevin Phillips, who started writing about the Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate (FIRE) Economy in 2002. From Wikipedia:
    Phillips uses the term “financialization” to describe how the U.S. economy has been radically restructured from a focus on production, manufacturing and wages, to a focus on speculation, debt, and profits. Since the 1980s, Phillips argues in American Theocracy,
    "...the underlying Washington strategy… was less to give ordinary Americans direct sums than to create a low-interest-rate boom in real estate, thereby raising the percentage of American home ownership, ballooning the prices of homes, and allowing householders to take out some of that increase through low-cost refinancing. This triple play created new wealth to take the place of that destroyed in the 2000-2002 stock-market crash and simultaneously raised consumer confidence.

    "Nothing similar had ever been engineered before. Instead of a recovery orchestrated by Congress and the White House and aimed at the middle- and bottom-income segments, this one was directed by an appointed central banker, a man whose principal responsibility was to the banking system. His relief, targeted on financial assets and real estate, was principally achieved by monetary stimulus. This in itself confirmed the massive realignment of preferences and priorities within the American system….

    "Likewise huge and indisputable but almost never discussed were the powerful political economics lurking behind the stimulus: the massive rate-cut-driven post-2000 bailout of the FIRE sector, with its ever-climbing share of GDP and proximity to power. No longer would Washington concentrate stimulus on wages or public-works employment. The Fed's policies, however shrewd, were not rooted in an abstraction of the national interest but in pursuit of its statutory mandate to protect the U.S. banking and payments system, now inseparable from the broadly defined financial-services sector."
    Or maybe Gross had been reading ex-Chase Manhattan banker, consultant to the White House and to governments ranging from Canada to China, Dr. Michael Hudson. In Saving, Asset-Price Inflation, and Debt-Induced Deflation Hudson writes:
    "The exponential growth of savings and debt takes the form mainly of loans to finance the purchase of real estate, stocks and bonds. These loans extract interest and amortization charges that divert revenue away from being spent on goods and services. The payment of debt service by the economy’s non-financial sectors interrupts the circular flow that Say’s Law postulates to exist between producers and consumers."
    Well, Hudson is an economist and he writes like one. It's tough going for a lay reader, but worth it if you're trying to understand how our economy really works. His most approachable piece is an update to Friedrich A. Hayek's Road to Serfdom titled New Road to Serfdom. Hudson explains that the FIRE Economy is turning us all into debt slaves.

    Reading Hudson and Phillips is like taking the Red Pill. If you're not familiar with the movie The Matrix, the Red Pill is the one you take if you want to see past the surface illusion of the made-up world. Once you read Hudson and Phillips, no matter whether you agree with their solutions, it's hard to go back to seeing the economy as anything but two distinct economies: the great, big FIRE Economy and the itty bitty Production/Consumption Economy.

    Inflation versus deflation: Red Pill view

    For readers who've taken the Red Pill, the inflation vs deflation discussion needs to be put into the context of the FIRE and P/C Economies.
    • Fed monetary policy for the FIRE Economy is distinct from monetary policy for the P/C Economy.
    • Continuous asset price inflation is the objective of FIRE Economy monetary policy. Within the residential real estate market these policies have been effective until recently. They continue to work in the commercial real estate market, but perhaps for not much longer, starting with retail.
    • Low wage inflation is the primary objective of P/C Economy monetary and government policy because wages are the mechanism for transmission of inflation into the inflation cycle. Wage inflation can be managed via immigration policy, outsourcing policy to affect global wage arbitrage, and so on.
    • Payments within the FIRE Economy may be 100 or more times the total payments within the P/C Economy.
    • This does not mean that small changes in FIRE Economy growth have an out-sized impact on the P/C Economy. The opposite is true. The FIRE Economy is a 400 HP car engine in your car and the P/C economy as the 1/10th HP heater that warms your car with the waste heat from the engine.
    • Asset price inflation and deflation occurs within the FIRE Economy without a direct impact on wages and goods prices within the P/C Economy. For example, housing price asset inflation ran more than 10% per year between 2002 and 2005 while consumer price inflation remained in the low single digits. Conversely, asset price deflation can occur in the FIRE Economy without necessarily leading to wage and goods price deflation in the P/C Economy.
    • However, as the Japanese learned in the 1990s, sustained banking system dysfunction (inability to multiply money) and asset price deflation in the FIRE Economy, with asset price deflation continuing for years on end, eventually spills over into the P/C economy.
    It is this final point that leads us to believe in a Next Bubble, a topic we discuss with subscribers at length in the iTulip Select area of the site. Monetary and government policy will, we believe, expand credit to re-direct capital into new areas of the FIRE Economy. Failure to do so means failure of the FIRE Economy. New bubble expansion will need to happen over the next year or two, before asset price deflation spills over into the P/C Economy as occurred in Japan in the 1990s and in the US in the 1930s, at which point both the FIRE and P/C economies become unmanageable from a monetary standpoint.

    FIRE Economy Failure?

    When we interviewed Dr. Hudson, he didn't buy our Next Bubble idea. He believes that the FIRE Economy will gradually fail. He calls it the "slow crash." In that case demand declines within the P/C Economy as Japan experienced. Does that mean the US experiences deflation as Japan did? Japan was a net creditor when its FIRE Economy began a slow crash starting in 1992. The US was also a net creditor when its FIRE Economy crashed hard in the 1930s. For net creditors, as asset price deflation within the FIRE Economy spills over into the P/C Economy, the impact on interest rates and currency values is deflationary for wage and goods prices. For net debtors, on the other hand, the impact is the opposite: interest rates rise and currency values fall as capital flows reverse, ala Ka-Poom Theory. We believe failure of the FIRE Economy therefor means inflation.

    Mike (Mish) Shedlock believes the banks can't be resuscitated once the credit defaults get rolling (see Death Spiral Financing). Rick Ackerman and Gary North are in the same camp. In Red Pill terms, they believe excessive debt levels and credit derivatives will swamp and wreck the FIRE Economy, taking the P/C Economy down with it.

    I got into the topic with GaveKal CEO Lious-Vincent Gave on Sunday ( interview here). His case for deflation in Europe is well articulated and specific: run-away asset price deflation happens because there is no euro bond market like the US and Japan have dollar and yen bond markets, each connected to a national central bank. The euro is a multinational political animal, with no centralized means to inflate.

    The euro's lack of a euro bond market was first pointed out to us in our interview with Jamie Galbraith (JK's son) earlier this year when we were asking victims of various interviews: "What sort of international monetary regime after this one turns turtle?" It was one of those slap-your-forehead moments we hope to experience at least once in each interview we conduct. Jamie said a multilateral dollar-yen-euro regime depends on the development a euro bond market–so don't hold your breath.

    The Road to Inflation

    The inflation versus deflation debate was re-ignited by the Fed's 50 basis point rate shock therapy last week. Readers of pundits in the deflation camp demanded to know, "The long awaited credit meltdown is here. Where's the deflation? Gold and oil are going through the roof!"

    Hudson’s prediction of the decline of the FIRE Economy is more or less a traditional Marxist one, that total interest payments eventually exceed the economy’s debt carrying capacity. At some point there’s a “break in the chain of payments,” and the system collapses. Preventing such a break is what the Fed has been up to for the past few weeks, and the Bank of England is still doing for Barclays and other banks today.

    No one knows whether the FIRE Economy is doomed or not. But its imminent demise has been prematurely announced many times over the past 20 years. I heard similar arguments from Marxist economics professors in college in the early 1980s. Now you can hear them from Libertarians, too.

    Our Red Pill conclusion is that to keep the FIRE Economy running until the Next Bubbles get going, the Fed is willing to risk inflation in the P/C Economy, thus the 50 basis point cut while inflation is at multi-year highs and the dollar at multi-year lows. A bit of extra heat from the 1/10th HP heater is a necessary cost of preserving the 400 HP engine; once the FIRE Economy is firing on all cylinders again, P/C Economy inflation can be brought back under control. And in the unlikely case that the FIRE Economy fails, expect massive capital outflows, a collapsing dollar and inflation as Mexico experienced in the late 1980s.

    Either way, we don't see wage and goods price deflation in our future.

    Tulip Select: The Investment Thesis for the Next Cycle™
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    Last edited by FRED; September 26, 2007, 08:00 PM. Reason: Spelling and stuff. Wrong pill color!

  • #2
    Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Blue Pill consumers

    nah, you ain't alone with the inflation and dollar as peso position. Bernstein sez:

    A quick reiteration of our views on the global imbalances seems to be in
    order.

    Simply put, the US trade imbalances are so huge and the export base so small that the only way to solve the global imbalances is to constrain domestic US consumption. We have argued that there are basically three ways to do that: 1) raise taxes; 2) raise interest rates (or keep monetary policies tighter than they normally would be); and/or 3) depreciate the dollar so that goods produced outside the US eventually become “unaffordable” to Americans. If the markets saw that #1 or #2 were not going to be implemented, they would take care of #3.

    Depreciating the currency is generally a politically acceptable route,
    one often chosen by developing nations with current account imbalances (after all, what politician wants to tell voters they can't buy things?). However, it is also the route that is the least controllable. It now seems quite clear that Washington as a whole (i.e., the fiscal and monetary authorities) has chosen #3.

    American markets have been focusing on assets that seek to merely maintain wealth (dollar-denominated commodities and gold, for example). At the same time, the rest of the world is investing to build productive assets and wealth.

    We have many times in the past referred to the US dollar as the US peso.
    This reference now seems to be a sad reality.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

      OK, it said "blue pill" before, and now it says "red pill." Did The Matrix get reset?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

        Originally posted by housequake View Post
        OK, it said "blue pill" before, and now it says "red pill." Did The Matrix get reset?
        It says "Blue Pill" unless you take the Red Pill.

        Someone broke into my apartment and replaced everything with an exact replica. I asked my roommate what happened. He said, "Do I know you?"
        - Steven Wright
        Ed.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

          Originally posted by Fred View Post
          It says "Blue Pill" unless you take the Red Pill.
          But, but, I meant to take the blue one.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

            Originally posted by Andreuccio View Post
            But, but, I meant to take the blue one.
            I don't like pills, but if things keep going as they seem to be, I mite take a hand full of each and just end it lol. Well maybe not at least until the Fat Lady sings.

            I think that Gold and Silver will do well over time and that is my story and I am sticking to it. OMG i hope I am right on this one for my kids sake

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

              well, i didn't get an answer to my question to mish. his "deflation" arguments are a lot of hand waving. as the dollar tanks and commodity inflation continues to rip ala kapoom, here's what yer gonna get from the deflationists like mish. "oh, no. i never said deflation. what i said was... blah."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                Originally posted by metalman View Post
                well, i didn't get an answer to my question to mish. his "deflation" arguments are a lot of hand waving. as the dollar tanks and commodity inflation continues to rip ala kapoom, here's what yer gonna get from the deflationists like mish. "oh, no. i never said deflation. what i said was... blah."
                Notice I just added "Chief Cynic" to your title. Select subscriber can expect similar tagging. If you don't like your tag, just tell me and I'll change it.

                As for Mish...

                Last edited by FRED; September 26, 2007, 06:56 PM.
                Ed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                  Originally posted by Fred View Post
                  Notice I just added "Chief Cynic" to your title. Select subscriber can expect similar tagging. If you don't like your tag, just tell me and I'll change it.

                  As for Mish...

                  ok, i really want "head of dept. of drugs, alcohol and firearms" but i'll settle for "chief cynic."

                  mish is hardcore deflationist. fer example...
                  The Psychology of Deflation

                  " Beginning in November, Outback plans to cut prices across its menu."

                  you're friggin, kidding, right? got three chinese take-out menus right here, each about six months apart, with much higher prices on each.

                  how about:

                  Deflation is in the Cards by Mike Shedlock

                  "Yes Readers, that is correct. The answer to the "Great Flation Question" is DEFLATION. I am not going to wimp out and say "stagflation", and rest assured it is not "inflation" which means that the "hyper-inflation" that many see coming is totally laughable."

                  i rest my case.
                  Last edited by FRED; September 26, 2007, 06:57 PM. Reason: updated the pic so metalman doesn't look any more crazy than he already does.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                    Originally posted by EJ View Post

                    Our Red Pill conclusion is that to keep the FIRE Economy running until the Next Bubbles get going,
                    The Fed lowered interest rates to make available liquidity for financing the arm readjustment impact phase with added government reassurance. The main objective is to keep real estate assets from crashing by refinancing qualified borrowers out of arms, continuing the chain of payments under a fixed interest rate. This is the impact phase as I pointed out here http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...6473#post16473 as we waddle threw it over the next 18-20 months. Sure we will have pull backs and tighter money as it will clean out a few highly leveraged speculators that can’t hold on for the next fire phase, but don’t count on a long term deflation cycle.

                    Why not?
                    There is too much value left in the US not to have another fire economy expansion. Value is in US infrastructure ownership, to be purchased/operated by institutional investors and foreigners and that will fuel the next fire economy.
                    The economy arsonist are busy laying the ground work for the next match to be lit http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=9140#post9140 to start another phase of the fire economy.
                    Today as one example, government and companies are making plans for the next fire economy phase at the Waldorf Astoria.http://www.euromoneyseminars.com/def...assed=brochure
                    Take companies like BAM getting ready for future infrastructure opportunities.

                    http://www.brookfield.com/newsroom/p...2007-07-31.asp
                    Brookfield believes that the infrastructure industry will evolve like the real estate industry in which assets are commonly owned through consortiums of institutional investors and owner/operators such as Brookfield. Brookfield Infrastructure will focus on large scale transactions in which Brookfield has sufficient control to influence operations. An integral part of the strategy is participation with institutional investors in Brookfield-sponsored consortiums for single-asset acquisitions or participation as a partner in Brookfield-sponsored partnerships that target acquisitions that suit Brookfield Infrastructure’s profile.
                    Last edited by bill; September 26, 2007, 07:54 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                      I don't understand. Where'd Mish go?

                      Seriously - Weren't we just getting warmed up? :confused:


                      Last edited by Contemptuous; September 26, 2007, 10:00 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                        Originally posted by metalman View Post
                        well, i didn't get an answer to my question to mish. his "deflation" arguments are a lot of hand waving. as the dollar tanks and commodity inflation continues to rip ala kapoom, here's what yer gonna get from the deflationists like mish. "oh, no. i never said deflation. what i said was... blah."
                        Metalman did it ever occur to you that perhaps I was busy?

                        I suppose I could turn the tables and say when the heck are we going to get all the hyperinflation people are calling for? Where is it? By the way, when is the last time housing fell in hyperinflation?

                        I was an still am calling for deflation. And I even disagreed with Gary North about it being here right now.

                        So you are challenging my personal reputation without merit, simply because you do not like my call. That is how it appears to me.

                        But if I remember your question correctly it was about velocity. Someone asked about it if it was not you.

                        I am aware that Shostak thinks its a useless idea. He said so in http://www.mises.org/story/918

                        I do not pick arguments with Shostak easily. But even if I have no measure of it, I can say that when Japan printed, there was no demand for credit and the money essentially just sat. In a fiat world unless there is borrowing and use of credit there is no inflation.

                        If you don't like my take perhaps you can believe Paul Kasriel



                        Email from Paul Kasriel
                        Japan experienced a deflation in recent years because the bursting of its asset-price bubble in the early 1990s created huge losses in its banking system. The Japanese banks had financed the asset-price bubble. When it burst, the debtors could not keep current on their loans to the banks and therefore were forced to turn back the collateral to the banks. The market value of the collateral, of course, was less than the amount of the loans outstanding, thereby inflicting huge losses of capital to the Japanese banks. With the decline in bank capital, the Japanese banks could not extend new credit to the private sector even though the Bank of Japan was offering credit to the banks at very low nominal rates of interest.

                        Banks are an important transmission mechanism between the central bank and the private economy. If the banks are unable or unwilling to extend the cheap credit being offered to them by the central bank, then the economy grows very slowly, if at all. This happened in the U.S. during the early 1930s.

                        U.S. banks currently hold record amounts of mortgage-related assets on their books. If the housing market were to go into a deep recession resulting in massive mortgage defaults, the U.S. banking system could sustain huge losses similar to what the Japanese banks experienced in the 1990s. If this were to occur, the Fed could cut interest rates to zero but it would have little positive effect on economic activity or inflation.

                        Short of the Fed depositing newly-created money directly into private sector accounts, I suspect that a deflation would occur under these circumstances. Again, crippled banking systems tend to bring on deflations. And crippled banking systems seem to result from the bursting of asset bubbles because of the sharp decline in the value of the collateral backing bank loans.

                        Hope this helps,
                        Paul

                        Paul L. Kasriel
                        Sr. V.P. and Director of Economic Research
                        The Northern Trust Company
                        50 South LaSalle Street
                        Chicago, IL 60603
                        a portion of the followup interview...

                        Mish: What if Bernanke cuts interest rates to 1 percent?
                        Kasriel: In a sustained housing bust that causes banks to take a big hit to their capital it simply will not matter. This is essentially what happened recently in Japan and also in the US during the great depression.

                        Mish: Can you elaborate?
                        Kasriel: Most people are not aware of actions the Fed took during the great depression. Bernanke claims that the Fed did not act strong enough during the great depression. This is simply not true. The Fed slashed interest rates and injected huge sums of base money but it did no good. More recently, Japan did the same thing. It also did no good. If default rates get high enough, banks will simply be unwilling to lend which will severely limit money and credit creation.

                        No one to date has countered this logic. Not a single person. People believe in the Fed's ability to inflate. I don't for the reasons above.


                        Japan tried and failed. Bernanke will as well.
                        1) banks have to be willing to lend
                        2) consumers and corporations have to be willing to borrow

                        In a big recession with falling corporate profits and rising bankruptcies in both consumer and corporate sectors neither is likely and all it takes is one.

                        You are of course free to disagree. But I prefer to see a good theory as to why. As far as I am concerned unless you can come up with a better theory you are the one doing the hand waving.

                        Mish
                        Last edited by BDAdmin; September 26, 2007, 10:04 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                          Originally posted by Mish View Post
                          Metalman did it ever occur to you that perhaps I was busy?

                          I suppose I could turn the tables and say when the heck are we going to get all the hyperinflation people are calling for? Where is it? By the way, when is the last time housing fell in hyperinflation?
                          you said deflation was happening in 2005 and 2006. it's 2007 and now it's a MishMash of revisionism and doubletalk and nonsense. sorry, but that's my take.

                          I was an still am calling for deflation. And I even disagreed with Gary North about it being here right now.
                          you said it was happening in 2005! what do you mean you are disagreeing with gary about it happening now?

                          So you are challenging my personal reputation without merit, simply because you do not like my call. That is how it appears to me.
                          you called deflation in 2005. and 2006. and 2007. meantime gold and stocks go up and up and up. ain't the call i don't like it's the pretending to not say what you said. fess up to mistakes. everyone makes them.

                          But if I remember your question correctly it was about velocity. Someone asked about it if it was not you.

                          I am aware that Shostak thinks its a useless idea. He said so in http://www.mises.org/story/918
                          more twaddle. i don't give a shit what shostak thinks. what do you think?

                          I do not pick arguments with Shostak easily. But even if I have no measure of it, I can say that when Japan printed, there was no demand for credit and the money essentially just sat. In a fiat world unless there is borrowing and use of credit there is no inflation.

                          If you don't like my take perhaps you can believe Paul Kasriel

                          http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...l-kasriel.html
                          does paul know you're using his rep this way? ej seems connected to a lot of folks. bet he can ask him. ej?

                          Email from Paul Kasriel
                          Japan experienced a deflation in recent years because the bursting of its asset-price bubble in the early 1990s created huge losses in its banking system. The Japanese banks had financed the asset-price bubble. When it burst, the debtors could not keep current on their loans to the banks and therefore were forced to turn back the collateral to the banks. The market value of the collateral, of course, was less than the amount of the loans outstanding, thereby inflicting huge losses of capital to the Japanese banks. With the decline in bank capital, the Japanese banks could not extend new credit to the private sector even though the Bank of Japan was offering credit to the banks at very low nominal rates of interest.

                          Banks are an important transmission mechanism between the central bank and the private economy. If the banks are unable or unwilling to extend the cheap credit being offered to them by the central bank, then the economy grows very slowly, if at all. This happened in the U.S. during the early 1930s.

                          U.S. banks currently hold record amounts of mortgage-related assets on their books. If the housing market were to go into a deep recession resulting in massive mortgage defaults, the U.S. banking system could sustain huge losses similar to what the Japanese banks experienced in the 1990s. If this were to occur, the Fed could cut interest rates to zero but it would have little positive effect on economic activity or inflation.

                          Short of the Fed depositing newly-created money directly into private sector accounts, I suspect that a deflation would occur under these circumstances. Again, crippled banking systems tend to bring on deflations. And crippled banking systems seem to result from the bursting of asset bubbles because of the sharp decline in the value of the collateral backing bank loans.

                          Hope this helps,
                          Paul

                          Paul L. Kasriel
                          Sr. V.P. and Director of Economic Research
                          The Northern Trust Company
                          50 South LaSalle Street
                          Chicago, IL 60603
                          shame on you using this email to back up every lame deflation claim you make. what does this have to do with your claim a decline in the velocity of money = deflation? following your point that "Shostak thinks its a useless idea" meaning velocity of money data don't = deflation. don't just cover your bases, make up your mind.

                          a portion of the followup interview...

                          Mish: What if Bernanke cuts interest rates to 1 percent?
                          Kasriel: In a sustained housing bust that causes banks to take a big hit to their capital it simply will not matter. This is essentially what happened recently in Japan and also in the US during the great depression.

                          Mish: Can you elaborate?
                          Kasriel: Most people are not aware of actions the Fed took during the great depression. Bernanke claims that the Fed did not act strong enough during the great depression. This is simply not true. The Fed slashed interest rates and injected huge sums of base money but it did no good. More recently, Japan did the same thing. It also did no good. If default rates get high enough, banks will simply be unwilling to lend which will severely limit money and credit creation.
                          good quote and good point. but timing is everything. maybe i'm wrong but i get the idea from reading the info here on itulip that the fed waiting too long in the 1930s and the boj too long in the 1990s. someone help me out here but i think the case is made in the deflation piece here.
                          No one to date has countered this logic. Not a single person. People believe in the Fed's ability to inflate. I don't for the reasons above.
                          it ain't that simple. as this red pill piece says, if the collapse of the fire econ gets out of control, yes we get asset price deflation. but in the usa that means commodity price inflation. your analysis is primitive.
                          Japan tried and failed. Bernanke will as well.
                          1) banks have to be willing to lend
                          2) consumers and corporations have to be willing to borrow

                          In a big recession with falling corporate profits and rising bankruptcies in both consumer and corporate sectors neither is likely and all it takes is one.
                          think you mean 'either is likely' but again, where's the evidence? the numbers? i know you're new here but we're into evidence not positions. and don't get offended because we do this to people with credentials.
                          You are of course free to disagree. But I prefer to see a good theory as to why. As far as I am concerned unless you can come up with a better theory you are the one doing the hand waving.
                          i guess i've swallowed the red pill. i see all the fire economy machinery. ugh!

                          Mish[/quote]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                            Originally posted by Mish View Post
                            Banks are an important transmission mechanism between the central bank and the private economy. If the banks are unable or unwilling to extend the cheap credit being offered to them by the central bank, then the economy grows very slowly, if at all. This happened in the U.S. during the early 1930s.

                            Mish: What if Bernanke cuts interest rates to 1 percent?
                            Kasriel: In a sustained housing bust that causes banks to take a big hit to their capital it simply will not matter. This is essentially what happened recently in Japan and also in the US during the great depression.

                            Mish: Can you elaborate?
                            Kasriel: Most people are not aware of actions the Fed took during the great depression. Bernanke claims that the Fed did not act strong enough during the great depression. This is simply not true. The Fed slashed interest rates and injected huge sums of base money but it did no good.
                            In Support of this argument is the following piece of history
                            Climbing Out of the Great Depression

                            What was Roosevelt's "New Deal"?

                            First, it was a unique moment in American political history. Usually American politics is the politics of gridlock. James Madison and company constructed the American political system so that it would be broken by design: maneuvering programs and policies through several layers of committees, two legislative houses, past the president, and into execution is very complex, and overwhelming procedural obstacles can be erected by determined opponents at almost every step along the path. Legislative majorities for one party or the other in either house of the legislature are almost always small. American is governed by increments, from the center. Between 1900 and 1950 there were times when one party had a solid majority in the House, but its majority in the Senate then was small.

                            The elections of the 1930s were different. Roosevelt won 59 percent of the vote in 1932--an eighteen percentage-point margin over Herbert Hoover. Congress swung heavily Democratic in both houses. The 1930s would see Democratic political dominance in the congress to an extent never before seen since the Civil War. For the first and only time, the president and his party had unshakable working majorities in both houses of the legislature.



                            But the new majority in congress had no idea what it was to do. It was looking for direction from the newly-elected president: whatever Roosevelt sent down, the congress would probably pass.

                            Roosevelt had no idea what he was to do, either. But he did have a conviction that he could do something important. So was born the strategy of the New Deal: try everything you can think of to cure the depression; drop and abandon the things that do not seem to be working; push the things that do seem to be working. And the important thing was action to change how America worked for two reasons. First because action would raise hopes, and as Roosevelt said in his inaugural address:
                            Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself--nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror.

                            Second because the old way of doing things was clearly broken:
                            We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated.... The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths.
                            .
                            .
                            .
                            Also on May 18, President Roosevelt submitted to congress the center-piece of his first hundred days: the National Industrial Recovery Act, or NIRA.
                            • Businesses won the ability to collude--to draft "codes of conduct" that would make it easy to maintain relatively high prices, and to "plan" to match captacity to demand.
                            • Socialist-leaning planners won the requirement that the government--the National Recovery Administration, or NRA--approve the industry-drafted plans.
                            • Labor won the right to collective bargaining, and the right to have minimum wages and maximum hours incorporated into the industry-level plans.
                            • Spenders won some $3.3 billion in public works.


                            But what did it all add up to? The NIRA broke the back of expectations of future deflation. The creation of deposit insurance and the reform of the banking system made savers willing to trust their money to the banks again, and began the reexpansion of the money supply. Corporatism and farm subsidies spread the pain of the Great Depression to some extent. These three policy moves kept things from getting worse, and probably made things somewhat better.

                            But the rest of Roosevelt's "hundred days"? It is not clear whether the balance sheet of the rest of the hundred days is positive or negative. The "economy" bill that cut spending and relief did harm. Much of financial market regulation (save deposit insurance) was simply irrelevant to the Great Depression. Farm subsidies set the American government on a path that would prove expensive and counterproductive for the next sixty years.

                            More important, perhaps, people relatively soon decided that they did not like the combination of "corporatist" government-business cooperation and business collusion embodied in the NRA. Consumers complained that the NRA raised prices. Workers complained that it gave them insufficient voice. Businessmen complained that the government was telling them what to do. Progressives complained that the NRA created monopoly. Spenders worried that collusion among businesses raised prices, reduced production, and increased unemployment. A committee to study the NRA headed by progressive lawyer Clarence Darrow denounced the NRA for promoting monopoly, urged a return to free competition, and then for good measure denounced competition as "savage and wolfish" and called for socialism: government nationalization of industry.

                            In May 1935 the Supreme Court unanimously declared the NIRA and its implementing agency, the NRA, unconstitutional. Roosevelt's experiment with "corporatism"--which crusty Democrats like Senator Carter Glass denounced as "the utterly dangerous effort of the federal government at Washington to transplant Hitlerism to every corner of this nation" was over. It was not success.

                            By the end of 1933 Roosevelt had shifted his attention to monetary matters: recovery was to be promoted by raising the prices of commodities in dollars, and the prices of commodities in dollars were to be raised by devaluing the dollar in terms of gold. By the end of January 1934 Roosevelt fixed the value of the dollar at 1/35 of a (troy) ounce of gold, fifty-nine percent of its pre-1933 gold-standard parity. But the full-fledged policy of monetary inflation and mammoth fiscal deficits that might have pulled the country out of the Great Depression quickly--that did pull Germany under Hitler out of the Great Depression quickly--was not tried. 1934 was a better economic year than 1933, 1935 was better than 1934, and 1936 was better than 1935, but not by much.

                            The slide in which each year was worse than the one before had been ended by the Depression. Some ground had been regained. But happy days were not here again.
                            .
                            .
                            Winners and Losers from the Depression:

                            Workers who kept their jobs, even with reduced hours, and financiers whose money was invested in bonds prospered during the Depression. Their nominal incomes in dollars dropped, but prices dropped even more: the baskets of goods they could buy increased. Farmers, workers who lost their jobs, and entrepreneurs who had bet their money on continued prosperity were the big losers of the Depression. Production was a third less than normal and the distribution of income had shifted toward those who kept steady employment or who had invested their financial wealth conservatively. As a result, at the nadir the standard of living of losers taken all together was perhaps half of what it had been in 1929.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Inflation versus deflation debate for Red Pill consumers

                              Originally posted by bill View Post
                              Sure we will have pull backs and tighter money as it will clean out a few highly leveraged speculators that can’t hold on for the next fire phase, but don’t count on a long term deflation cycle.

                              Why not?
                              There is too much value left in the US not to have another fire economy expansion. Value is in US infrastructure ownership, to be purchased/operated by institutional investors and foreigners and that will fuel the next fire economy.
                              The economy arsonist are busy laying the ground work for the next match to be lit http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=9140#post9140 to start another phase of the fire economy.
                              Today as one example, government and companies are making plans for the next fire economy phase at the Waldorf Astoria.http://www.euromoneyseminars.com/def...assed=brochure
                              Take companies like BAM getting ready for future infrastructure opportunities.

                              http://www.brookfield.com/newsroom/p...2007-07-31.asp
                              How does foreigners buying US infrastructure
                              1) create jobs for the average Joe
                              2) Keep the average Joe in his house
                              3) prevent lots of small businesses (nail salons restaurants etc) from going bankrupt
                              4) Pay the overhead at large corporations like Lowe's Target Home Depot that have overexpanded
                              5) etc etc

                              even assuming such a wave of selling infrastructure were to occur. The big problem (for now) is
                              a) consumer debt
                              b) corporate debt
                              c) corporate over expansion
                              d) excessive leverage

                              So IF selling infrastructure occurred how does it address the above issues.

                              A second problem is assuming foreigners would want to buy much of our crumbling infrastructure in the first place. Not that it can't happen but didn't we just burn them tremendously on CDOs etc. Perhaps that have learned a lesson.

                              A 3rd and not insignificant problem is determining a fair price for it.

                              A 4th problem in say selling roads or whatever is that tolls will have to be charged where perhaps no tolls were charged before so in essence consumer costs will go up.

                              A 5th problem is believing that can happen soon enough to matter

                              a 6th problem is assuming the government would do this on a massive enough scale to matter in the first place

                              But even ignoring #2-#6 I fail to see how it solves any problems.

                              Mish

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