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  • The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

    http://defenceoftherealm.blogspot.co...-elephant.html

    The high-profile attack on its embassy in Kabul earlier this month (pictured) briefly brought to the attention of the Western media the Indian presence in the Afghan capital.

    Yet, apart from when Indian assets are attacked, very little notice is taken of what is a major factor in the Afghan "insurgency". India stands accused of using the Afghan conflict to destabilise its old enemy, Pakistan, part of a wider regional effort that includes supporting the independence movement in Baluchistan, and even paying the Taleban to mount attacks on installations in Pakistan.

    This issue came to a head yesterday when Pakistan interior minister Rehman Malik directly accused India of creating unrest within Pakistan by funding the Taleban based along the Pak-Afghan border and by interfering in Baluchistan. He went further to say that Islamabad had "solid evidence", adding the information could be shared with Indian ministers or representatives at any forum of their choice.

    The Indian media, predictably, dismissed these claims as "over-the-top posturing". They are seen as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from claims that the Pakistani ISI is funding the Tehrik-e-Taliban, al-Qaeda and other extremist groups operating from its soil.

    This is by no means the first time Islamabad has made such accusations, having been arguing the point since 2003. Even last July, Malik was telling his senate that Indian intelligence agencies were running "terrorist camps" in Afghanistan to train Baluchi youths to "create disturbances" in the south western province.

    That there should be tension between India and Pakistan is hardly surprising. Between the countries, there have been three major conflicts since 1947 and there is still an armed confrontation across the so-called "line of control" in Kashmir, where only a cease-fire prevails and violations are frequently reported. The latest was last Sunday, when it was claimed that an Indian soldier had been wounded in "unprovoked firing that lasted for some 30 minutes."

    Even as of today, India has advised its citizens against travel to Pakistan, citing security reasons, Normally, thousands of Indian pilgrims, mainly Sikhs, travel to Pakistan's Punjab province, home to some of the most revered Sikh sites including the birthplace of Guru Nanak, the 15th century founder of their faith.

    The tension is exacerbated by Pakistani intelligence service support for an active insurgency by Moslem extremist groups within the Indian-held area of Kashmir, while the Indian intelligence service, known by the initials RAW, is also active in throughout Kashmir, with the alleged involvement of the Israeli spy agency Mossad. Israel has also become a major arms supplier to India, inflaming Moslem sensitivities.

    A politically fragile Pakistan firmly believes that the Indian long-term objective is the dismantling of the Pakistani state, and it looks nervously across the border at the huge 1.4 million-strong Indian army, the third largest after China and the US, comprising 34 combat divisions - with seven of its thirteen Corps poised against Pakistan.

    Relations were not improved by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, with India, then a client state of the Soviet Union, supported the Soviet action, in contrast with Pakistan, which created and launched the Taleban in opposition to Soviet forces. After the Soviet withdrawal, India belatedly supported the Northern League in its bid to overthrow the Taleban, and has since been an open supporter of Karzai's government, pledging to spend $1.6bn in aid, making it the fifth largest bilateral donor.

    The very closeness of that relationship worries Pakistan, which sees India's involvement as an attempt to encircle their country. Says analyst Ahmed Rashid, "India's reconstruction strategy was designed to win over every sector of Afghan society, to give India a high profile with Afghans, gain the maximum political advantage and, of course, undercut Pakistani influence."

    A significant element of this strategy could be construed as "economic warfare", deliberately designed to undermine the Pakistani economy. Thus, when Pakistan announced plans to develop a new deep water port in Gwadar, on Baluchistan's Makran coastline – with significant Chinese investment – India teamed up with Iran on the other side of the border to expand the deep water facility at Chabahar. It is also investing in upgrading the Chabahar-Milak road to the border with Afghanistan (pictured), giving India direct access without having to pass through Pakistan.

    Few consider it a coincidence that, while the development of Chabahar and its road links have forged ahead, not least of the problems with Pakistan's Gwadar development has been an upsurge in Baluchi "terrorism", with the Pakistani government convinced that this is both organised and funded by the Indians.

    On the diplomatic front too, it has been noted that India has been a powerful player, joining and to an extent orchestrating the now US-led international pressure on Pakistan to undertake military operations in South Waziristan. This is forcing the Pakistani Army to confront its former (and continuing) Pushtan allies, thus incurring the wrath of Moslem fundamentalists, who see the government as a stooge for the US and India.

    While it is said that the Indian aim is to sour relations between the tribes and the Pakistani Army, to an extent that the latter refuse to side with it in case of an Indo-Pak war, the ploy could backfire. Rather than simply exert this passive effect, it could energise and unite the tribes. If they then went on to strengthen links with fundamentalist terrorists in south Punjab and even the Moslem population in Karachi, the already weak Pakistani government could fold.

    With that, Hakimullah Mehsud, the new leader of the Pakistani Taleban – in what may be a show of bravado, but maybe something more – is threatening a massive escalation. "We want an Islamic state, if we get that then we will go to the borders and fight the Indians," he says.

    In a situation that has parallels with the 1947 Kashmiri war, we could see a "free-lance" tribal invasion of India, with the Pakistani Army sucked in to protect their "brothers" when they confront the all-powerful Indian Army, the conflict spiralling into an all-out war.

    Even short of that, observers are noting that the increasing Indian involvement in Afghanistan, and its support for liberation movements on Pakistani territory, is "a hurdle in getting Pakistan to fight the Taleban."

    Certainly, the suspicion is that the Pakistani Army, in its current operation in South Waziristan, is going through the motions. It has sent in about 28,000 troops to take on about 10,000 guerrillas, a relatively low ratio. According to Javed Hussain, a retired Pakistani Army brigadier, probably only 11,000 are infantry. Instead of a ratio of one to one, he says, the ratio should be at least five to one.

    One could suggest that the Army is "aiming to fail". In fact, with the US maintaining a close and amicable relationship with India, and Afghanistan likewise with India, the Pakistan government is more likely, through the ISI, to step up its covert support for the Taleban. In so doing, it will reason that the Taleban's efforts to destabilise the Karzai government, and undermine coalition forces, are a legitimate and necessary counter to growing Indian influence.

    All of this tends to put the Afghan conflict in a new light – or, at least, give it a new perspective. As well as the obvious and much documented battle between the Taleban and the Afghan government, supported by coalition forces, there is another "proxy war" being fought out over the same territory, between India and Pakistan.

    This, while policy-makers have been widely discussing their "AF-PAK" strategy, the real need is for an "Af-Indo-Pak" strategy. And this has wider implications for any eventual drawdown of coalition troops, and the Afghanisation of the "war". If reduced coalition presence – especially if it is premature – creates a power vacuum, that could be filled by India, provoking a violent reaction from Pakistan.

    To that extent, it also adds another strategic dimension to the presence of coalition forces in Afghanistan. There is an elephant – an Indian elephant – not so much in the room, as wanting to come in. It would seem that we need to be there to keep it out (or under control), which then adds a further complication to an exit plan which is already deeply problematical.

  • #2
    Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

    I guess one takeaway from our western view of the rest of the world, is that when EJ makes reference to regional conflicts to come (as witnessed by present conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan), we tend to look at them from our perspective, ie, to what degree will our militaries be involved.

    This article made me realize that there could be some fairly large regional conflicts to come that don't immediately affect us or draw us in except potentially as an arms exporter.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

      Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post
      I guess one takeaway from our western view of the rest of the world, is that when EJ makes reference to regional conflicts to come (as witnessed by present conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan), we tend to look at them from our perspective, ie, to what degree will our militaries be involved.

      This article made me realize that there could be some fairly large regional conflicts to come that don't immediately affect us or draw us in except potentially as an arms exporter.
      I seriously doubt any "fairly large regional conflicts " are possible without the instigation, support and some level of involvement by the major powers. There's no way that Pakistan and India can get into a major shooting war without the advance help of the USA, Russia and China, who use these nations as proxies for their own geopolitical purposes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

        Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
        I seriously doubt any "fairly large regional conflicts " are possible without the instigation, support and some level of involvement by the major powers. There's no way that Pakistan and India can get into a major shooting war without the advance help of the USA, Russia and China, who use these nations as proxies for their own geopolitical purposes.
        While I am just an interested student/amateur when it comes to regional politics and I would agree for the most part, where I disagree is in the NO WAY...I'd probably exchange that for something like UNLIKELY.

        When you look at failed diplomatic efforts to stop the Indian/Pakistani nuclear testing in the late 90's as well as the Kargil Conflict I think that lends evidence to something less definitive than no way.

        Just my personal opinion.

        Also my personal opinion is that had the Pakistani terror proxies LeT and JeM(in this case JeM) been successful in their little known in the west attack on the Indian Parliament in December 2001, the military standoff between India and Pakistan in late 2001 early 2002 would have been INCREDIBLY difficult to diffuse.

        How would the world look now had the JeM terrorists NOT been stopped from a very near massacre of Parliament in the world's biggest democracy?

        Combine that close call with India's developing Cold Start military doctrine that has allowed it to improve it's operational readiness for front line units from approximately 1 month to 2 days.....dramatically reducing the amount of time available for diplomatic efforts to succeed if the military maneuver peacocking and escalation begins in earnest.

        I agree in large part with your post......but I also easily envisage realistic scenarios where India/Pakistan's less robust diplomatic/military/nuclear control measures could fail to prevent or contain momentum in a fast escalating crisis.

        Just my 0.02c

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

          Originally posted by lakedaemonian
          I agree in large part with your post......but I also easily envisage realistic scenarios where India/Pakistan's less robust diplomatic/military/nuclear control measures could fail to prevent or contain momentum in a fast escalating crisis.
          My own view is much more prosaic.

          With India and Pakistan both possessing nuclear weapons, we have a clear test case for the corollary that 2 nuclear armed nations will never enter into open war with each other, otherwise known as M.A.D.

          The point of the article was simply that there are very large regional players who are arrayed on both, and sometimes switching, sides in the conflict regions of Kashmir and Afghanistan. To focus on the Taleban, Taliban, Tali-bikers, Pashtun, Northern Alliance, etc etc is foolish without understanding the much more complicated context as well as history.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            My own view is much more prosaic.

            With India and Pakistan both possessing nuclear weapons, we have a clear test case for the corollary that 2 nuclear armed nations will never enter into open war with each other, otherwise known as M.A.D.

            The point of the article was simply that there are very large regional players who are arrayed on both, and sometimes switching, sides in the conflict regions of Kashmir and Afghanistan. To focus on the Taleban, Taliban, Tali-bikers, Pashtun, Northern Alliance, etc etc is foolish without understanding the much more complicated context as well as history.
            I'm not convinced Mutually Assured Destruction is a robust enough deterrent to prevent a possible total war between Indian and Pakistan.

            Here's a couple reasons why:

            Pakistan and India have a long and continuing history of war as direct adversaries, unlike their cold war peers US/Soviet Union(which represents the best example of MAD as an effective deterrent)

            Pakistan and India are still fighting an unending and quite violent open proxy war against each other which has resulted in multiple incidents leading to serious military escalation(The Soviet Union never ordered a proxy attack on US Congress, nor did the US order an attack on the Politburo).

            Pakistan and India share a substantial border which eliminates the MUCH needed "time and space" that the US and Soviet Union possessed to their advantage in crisis management(Pakistan/India would probably be more akin to the dangerous Korean peninsula DMZ which has gone quite "hot" over the years). Compressed "time and space" between India/Pakistan when compared with the successful(but accident filled) MAD history between US/SU will likely result in a greater risk of poor choices being made.

            Compounding that "time and space" problem is the incredibly short launch detection/threat assessment/response window that short/medium range missiles offer as well as stealth/LO cruise missiles.

            Pakistan and India do not possess the depth of experience, sophistication, and robustness of US/Soviet nuclear command/control/communications/intelligence "failsafe" capabilities....As I understand it, the US provided a substantial amount of money/resources to help upgrade Pakistan's nuclear weapons security...but that investment may have been directed at the prevention of nuclear weapons being "lost" to rogue elements rather than launch authority related protocols.

            Even with all of the US/Soviet Union investment in launch control authority there were still a number of quite serious incidents that nearly did, or could have easily, led to a launch of nuclear weapons such as: Cuban Missile Crisis, Able Archer 83, the Norwegian Rocket Incident, etc.

            When you combine ALL of that with India's growing Cold Start capability to further reduce the conventional conflict "time and space" adding pressure and stress to Pakistan's OODA loop......nuclear mistakes could FAR more easily happen between India/Pakistan than the many nuclear mistakes that occurred between US/SU.

            Pakistan in particular, seems to be running down the track of maximizing its weapons grade fissionable material stocks and/or it's nuclear arsenal. I could imagine this being a South West Asian version of the Cold War 1980's when total nuclear weapon stocks exploded. With such relatively small arsenals a regional nuclear war could be deemed winnable by one or both sides depending on their doctrine. By dramatically increasing it's arsenal or ability to ramp up it's arsenal quickly Pakistan may be trying to mitigate a winnable regional nuclear war possibility as well as to simply manufacture additional fissionable leverage over the US/west/world to mitigate the risk of a unilateral Pakistani implosion.

            So while I agree that MAD is relevant and can work at times....I'm not convinced it will work for India/Pakistan as often or as effectively as with US/SU.....so I think MAD(for India/Pakistan) is a rectangular peg trying to fit into a square hole...close, but maybe not close enough.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

              Originally posted by lakedaemonian
              So while I agree that MAD is relevant and can work at times....I'm not convinced it will work for India/Pakistan as often or as effectively as with US/SU.....so I think MAD(for India/Pakistan) is a rectangular peg trying to fit into a square hole...close, but maybe not close enough.
              I agree with your points, but I'll point out that one of the primary reasons why MAD can work is that the people at the top are no longer insulated from the results of their actions.

              Thus no matter how inflamed sentiment might be, the knowledge that personal risk exists should surely be a factor; neither the Pakistan nor Indian leadership exhibit any signs of suicidal tendencies much as their Cold War counterparts did not.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                I agree with your points, but I'll point out that one of the primary reasons why MAD can work is that the people at the top are no longer insulated from the results of their actions.

                Thus no matter how inflamed sentiment might be, the knowledge that personal risk exists should surely be a factor; neither the Pakistan nor Indian leadership exhibit any signs of suicidal tendencies much as their Cold War counterparts did not.
                I would agree that Pakistan/India's leadership would not likely be suicidal.

                And like you said the US and Soviet Union didn't possess a desire to commit suicide.

                But there are some clear differences under the superficial surface that could mean the lack of suicidal tendencies could be a moot point in a fast escalating regional crisis, where fast escalating regional crisis is not a possibility but an inevitable probability.

                Both the US and Soviet Union possesses immature/flawed nuclear weapons command and control procedures that were both robustly improved over the many decades of their nuclear weapons armed adversarial relationship, but only after a number of rather serious incidents nearly led to the use of their nuclear weapons.

                The US/USSR were both lucky on a few occasions...and were fortunate to possess the time/space to act coherently.

                I would posit that Pakistan/India's respective nuclear command and control systems are quite likely to have a number of flaws(much like the US/Soviet systems had potentially catastrophic flaws), due to their considerably less time, budget, and experience in the nuclear weapons "club".

                These inevitable flaws are likely to only be detected and remedied after a survivable crisis or sufficient time passing/command changes to allow their nuclear systems to naturally and incrementally improve/mature.

                Combine that with the previously mentioned far closer direct proximity of these adversaries and the related far shorter detection/analysis/response times of their nuclear delivery systems and it's a recipe for near-likely disaster.

                In terms of PERSONAL survivability for leadership, I think it would be safe to say that both nations would possess a number of command and control facilities that could survive impact from early generation nuclear weapons/ Neither nation likely possesses bunker busting nukes or accurate enough guidance systems to decisively destroy the other nation's leadership facilities.....as far as surviving their own people's wrath following a nuclear exchange who knows?

                So you could realistically have rational leadership in both countries relying on flawed doctrine/procedures/communications/immediate action drills/rules of engagement that could potentially turn a flashpoint into a mushroom cloud.

                It's a very dangerous adversarial relationship with a near 100% chance of getting quite interesting in the future, with an admittedly far, far less than 100% chance of getting quite irradiated in the future.....but how much less? Definitely less than 100%, but definitely more than 1%.

                Just my opinion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

                  Originally posted by lakedaemonian
                  I would posit that Pakistan/India's respective nuclear command and control systems are quite likely to have a number of flaws(much like the US/Soviet systems had potentially catastrophic flaws), due to their considerably less time, budget, and experience in the nuclear weapons "club".

                  These inevitable flaws are likely to only be detected and remedied after a survivable crisis or sufficient time passing/command changes to allow their nuclear systems to naturally and incrementally improve/mature.

                  ...

                  In terms of PERSONAL survivability for leadership, I think it would be safe to say that both nations would possess a number of command and control facilities that could survive impact from early generation nuclear weapons/ Neither nation likely possesses bunker busting nukes or accurate enough guidance systems to decisively destroy the other nation's leadership facilities.....as far as surviving their own people's wrath following a nuclear exchange who knows?
                  Again, your points on the control process for unleashing a nuclear attack are cogent.

                  My point on personal survival for leadership isn't just literal: which leader wants to be responsible for 200 million of his own civilian's deaths - with all the survivors being quite angry?

                  Sure, maybe this anger is pointed at the other side, but then again maybe not.

                  Nuclear weapons also change the entire offensive combat equation: ironically nuclear weapons are far more suited for defense if both sides have them.

                  Massive accumulations of troops and material for offensive purposes are a far juicier target than smaller numbers of entrenched troops.

                  The corollary then is first strike: "neutralize" the other side's nuclear weapons before they can be deployed against you, knowingly full well that if you fail then the first target will be the massed offense, and the secondary targets will be your population centers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    Again, your points on the control process for unleashing a nuclear attack are cogent.

                    My point on personal survival for leadership isn't just literal: which leader wants to be responsible for 200 million of his own civilian's deaths - with all the survivors being quite angry?

                    Sure, maybe this anger is pointed at the other side, but then again maybe not.

                    Nuclear weapons also change the entire offensive combat equation: ironically nuclear weapons are far more suited for defense if both sides have them.

                    Massive accumulations of troops and material for offensive purposes are a far juicier target than smaller numbers of entrenched troops.

                    The corollary then is first strike: "neutralize" the other side's nuclear weapons before they can be deployed against you, knowingly full well that if you fail then the first target will be the massed offense, and the secondary targets will be your population centers.
                    I've spent little time on theoretical nuclear warfare...so I possess zero subject mater expertise...but I've spoken to a few folks I believe do(obviously theoretical ).

                    A couple points I picked up on:

                    Depending on relative number of warheads, available relative methods of delivery, readiness levels of weapons, density of stored weapons, etc......nuclear war can become statistically "winnable".

                    I recall reading a brief synopsis of estimated dead in nuclear exchange scenarios between Pakistan/India.

                    I think it dates to about 10 years ago, not long after Kargil Conflict.

                    IIRC the estimated dead would be high single to low double digit millions of deaths from a considerable nuclear exchange......IIRC 1-ish% of combined total population.

                    I don't recall how "deep" the estimated casualties were.....whether it included longer lasting second and third order indirect casualties resulting from the breakdown/overwhelming of medical and healthcare infrastructure...as well as the resulting downward spiral of economic activity, tax collection, and spending on essential services in nations with already low quality of life/standard of living...so I suspect not very deep at all....and initial casualty rates, while "low" as a percentage of population, I suspect could explode quite easily in the following 1-10 years.

                    One bit of good news in the prevention of a nuclear exchange between Pakistan/India, is that while MAD will offer some degree of deterrance(my opinion as stated less than US/USSR) having US/China/Russia working diplomatically, economically, and militarily to prevent a nuclear exchange would also offer some degree of deterrence/prevention.

                    I belief the diplomatic/economic/military intervention of US/China/Russia has actually become an integrated and essential part of the process in helping to defuse conflict between Pakistan/India.

                    But as I stated in a previous thread, I'm of the belief that while it isn't likely, it's surely more than just possible that a change in circumstances for a superpower(US) cold lead to a change in behavior.

                    What if it's NO LONGER in the best perceived interest of the US to intervene and de-escalate tensions between Pakistan and India.....an act of omission rather than commission?

                    I know we've disagreed on this in the past.....but it relates to the topic...and is worthy of consideration.

                    From a Machiavellian Peak Cheap Oil perspective, I see a dark opportunity for a number of very large population nations to have their fast rising energy use per head of population dramatically curtailed as well as aligning other interests.

                    Far from likely......but worthy of monitoring a change in behavior of external factors historically relied upon to deter conflict between these two adversaries.

                    "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The elephant in the room: Afghanistan and India

                      http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/southasia.asp

                      On the other hand, secondary effects could cause substantially more damage....

                      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/84469.php

                      Comment

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