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**mooncliff** · January 27, 2011, 08:56 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Where is this on RCM website? I can't find it. Can you post a link to the page?

**Fiat Currency** · January 27, 2011, 09:33 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

I don't think it's open to the public just yet.

I believe this is a pre-sale of up to 10 coins to Master Club Members.

When she said "How many would you like?" .... I said "All of them".

Most likely it will open to the public once the Master's buy-in ... I'm guessing a limit of 3 coins once open ... but who really knows.

Is it a currency ... a store of value ... a guaranteed hedge ... a unit of measure ... or some of all of the above ??

Oh where, oh where is the common denominator ??

Edit: Here's the link if you can access it without an account ...

http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/20-fin...11-prod1040001

**Fiat Currency** · January 28, 2011, 01:49 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Here's what a good friend of mine (and fellow Master Club Member) had to say about it ... This was after laughing his guts out, when he told me that "Chris" asked him how many he would like, and he said "All of them".

I never thought I'd see the day when I applauded something the government or one of its agencies did.

This move merits three cheers.

The only problem is that the mintage is so small.

Maybe the government will get carried away with the program's success and unwittingly make the Canadian dollar a silver-backed currency by selling as many $20 silver coins as Canadians demand in exchange for $20 bills that are then used by the government to repay debt.

In theory, at least, every Canadian would, or at least should, be prepared to exchange every last scrap of worthless paper they hold for a silver coin of the same denomination.

As you know, the $20 bill is the workhorse of the Canadian currency. Replace it, and you've replaced the number 1 unit of paper currency in Canada in terms of usage.

My guess is that if this were to happen, people would very quickly decline accepting paper money in all financial and commercial transactions (except when paying their taxes). What sane individual would take paper money in exchange for anything when silver money could be had instead. Buyers, of course, would love to be able to exchange their paper dollars for anything and everything they purchase. Good luck, however, in finding any seller willing to accept toilet paper in exchange for items and services of real value. They're all going to want to get paid in silver.

One of the consequences of such a transformation in people's attitudes and expectations, is that government will find it more and more difficult to conjure money out of thin air since no one will want to accept the government's scrip in exchange for goods and services provided. The real nail in the coffin would be a decision by the government requiring that taxes be paid in silver. (What would prompt such a principled and selfless act on the part of government is quite beyond me). Once that happened, however, a country would stand a pretty good chance of having beaten the inherent tendency of governments to print money. The latter can only do so as long as people accept payment in paper currency or require fiat money to pay their own taxes. Eliminate the latter requirement and you'll have no one left who accepts funny money in exchange for anything when real money could be had instead.

Who knows? Maybe Harper has a secret agenda after all.

That is, to create the world's strongest currency and to permanently weaken the ability of the banks to control our economic destiny.

OK, so I'm dreaming in technicolour.

I have to keep reminding myself that the $20 silver coin program is a complete fluke and that the bureacrat who conceived of it will no doubt be fired the moment his boss realizes the ebola-like virus his subordinate has just released in the world of central banking.

(His boss will then either commit suicide or be fired for treason. A Stalinist purge will follow).

**pwcmba** · January 28, 2011, 08:18 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

The way I read it this coin costs$69.95

**Fiat Currency** · January 29, 2011, 12:57 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Originally posted by pwcmba View Post

The way I read it this coin costs $69.95

At first I thought you were joking ... I can now see the confusion.

Unless you have a "Master Club" account at the Mint - the link above drops you onto the main site where there is indeed a $20 Silver Collectable coin (mintage 8000) selling for $69.95. Click on my thumbnail picture in post #1 if you want to see the $20 silver coin.

Nope. This is a real $20 quarter ounce 99.99% pure silver legal tender coin, selling for $20 - no taxes no shipping. My order is already en route. 10 coins ... $200 of computer bits - even.

If this isn't the very definition of "sound money" ... then I don't know what is.

Where's Starving Steve? He said he wanted to see a silver dollar again. Well here it is. A silver $20. The most widely used note in Canada - reduced to a little coin.

Deflation everywhere.

**Fiat Currency** · January 30, 2011, 05:35 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

While I want to remind myself of my friend's sage words ...

OK, so I'm dreaming in technicolour.

I have to keep reminding myself that the $20 silver coin program is a complete fluke and that the bureaucrat who conceived of it will no doubt be fired the moment his boss realizes the ebola-like virus his subordinate has just released in the world of central banking.

(His boss will then either commit suicide or be fired for treason. A Stalinist purge will follow).

... and while my response to him was ...

Yes. You are dreaming in Technicolour. My money is on "suicide" or "car accident". Sound analysis BTW.

... I believe further reflection is warranted.

Whether you are from the USA, Canada, the EUROzone, Great Britain, Australia (etc.) ... you should be concerned about how your local currency is going to fare on the Global Fiat Currency playground.

While the $USD is still the World's reserve currency, there are increasing tensions here, as Countries are finding new ways to do trade while completing an "end run" around the $USD.

The competing attributes of Wealth - currency, unit of account, store of value (etc.) are increasingly showing signs of tension. Fracturing is occurring. There was a good discussion of it on the Secret of Oz thread.

I once posted about currencies differentiating and "police actions" ratcheting up - and we're certainly seeing that in spades now in Europe, the Middle East, etc.

Master Shake previously posted "Silver Money for China" from Jesse's blog where he asked

Would this work?

Silver as money most certainly works.

With stunning lucidity Starving Steve said ...

What we really want--- what we really demand, at this point--- is a full-replacement of fiat coin, in at least one denomination, with real silver coin, albeit at a modest silver-content in order that the replacement coin would circulate. And the monetary authority, i.e, the central bank or its mint, would earn senioriage replacing the old fiat-slugs with real silver-coin intended (and forced) into day-to-day use.

The post-WWII five-mark silver coin of West Germany was an example of a silver coin of modest silver-content that did circulate day-to-day, for many years. The coin was issued for general circulation and not for hoarding nor for collecting. The coin was never NCLT.

We don't want Olympic coins, nor special-edition coins. We don't want special designs, nor commemorative-anything. Don't fall for that crap! We want an end to fiat-coins..... And so, let's begin with one full-replacement of one currently circulating fiat-slug or one low-denomination of paper-money..... In Canada, let's begin with replacing the $5 banknote with a silver coin.

Well here you go Steve. A silver backed $20 coin from Canada. The $CAD has been kissing par with the $USD for some time now. Roughly 70% of our trade is with the USA. It would be hard to argue against the fact that Canada has the resources to back a silver currency, as well as the stable political environment.

A real silver ounce Maple Leaf or Eagle goes for roughly $30. A quarter oz. backing is roughly $7.50 on $20 ... or about a 37% backing +/-

Far from modest. Americans should want to hold this coin with our dollars at par. Does the World's reserve currency have a $20 currency backed by silver? No I didn't think so either - short of going to full bullion.

I can't help but wonder if this isn't a little experiment for Ben & Mark. Although, we could do way worse than have Canada & the USA moving towards silver & gold backed currencies.

A North American powerhouse. OK - maybe now I'm dreaming in Technicolour.

**Fiat Currency** · February 02, 2011, 03:12 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

FYI - It would appear that it is now open to the public here ...

http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/20-fin...11-prod1040001

... limit 3 coins per customer, $20 each, free shipping via lettermail.

A steal.

**monyPro** · February 03, 2011, 06:27 AM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Sorry to report....
Product $20 Fine Silver Commemorative Coin (2011) cannot be shipped to: United States

**DSpencer** · February 03, 2011, 10:57 AM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Originally posted by Fiat Currency View Post

A real silver ounce Maple Leaf or Eagle goes for roughly $30. A quarter oz. backing is roughly $7.50 on $20 ... or about a 37% backing +/-

Far from modest. Americans should want to hold this coin with our dollars at par. Does the World's reserve currency have a $20 currency backed by silver? No I didn't think so either - short of going to full bullion.

I can't help but wonder if this isn't a little experiment for Ben & Mark. Although, we could do way worse than have Canada & the USA moving towards silver & gold backed currencies.

A North American powerhouse. OK - maybe now I'm dreaming in Technicolour.

I like your optimism and hope you're right that this is just a first step. I also agree that there's good reason to convert as much paper money into silver coins as possible. However, there's a few things worth considering:

1. As an extremely limited release, all this does is put more money into circulation (I assume they spend the money you exchange instead of shredding/deleting it) and give a few people "good" money that they will most likely put in a safe.

2. Even if they decided to create an open window for everyone to exchange all their money into this form, there is still a large gap between the value of the silver and the face value. This maybe puts a bottom on the coins value, but it's a pretty steep drop as of right now. Not that I have any doubt that it will be reached at some point.

3. I assume if the price of silver rose above $20 per quarter oz they would start selling the coins over face value like they do now with many legal tender PM coins. If not, I guess you would have a de facto silver standard, right?

**Fiat Currency** · February 03, 2011, 01:32 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Originally posted by monyPro

Sorry to report....
Product $20 Fine Silver Commemorative Coin (2011) cannot be shipped to: United States

Yes - unfortunate, but it's a $CAD currency & I guess you have to start somewhere.

DSpencer: Good Comments ...

Originally posted by DSpencer View Post

1. As an extremely limited release, all this does is put more money into circulation (I assume they spend the money you exchange instead of shredding/deleting it) and give a few people "good" money that they will most likely put in a safe.

Based on your assumption, yes that would be true. There are alternatives.

Canada has been increasing its holdings of Treasuries as c1ue has pointed out - going from ... approximately $51B to $135B in one year ... a $84B increase - while other countries are selling or standing pat. These purchases are necessary to keep the $CAD from leaping par now.

My friend said ...

Maybe the government will get carried away with the program's success and unwittingly make the Canadian dollar a silver-backed currency by selling as many $20 silver coins as Canadians demand in exchange for $20 bills that are then used by the government to repay debt.

If Canada did use the proceeds to pay down debt, then the equation changes. Canada has a reasonably good track record of paying off debt, and a banking system that is at least as good/stable as anybody else's.

Originally posted by DSpencer View Post

2. Even if they decided to create an open window for everyone to exchange all their money into this form, there is still a large gap between the value of the silver and the face value. This maybe puts a bottom on the coins value, but it's a pretty steep drop as of right now. Not that I have any doubt that it will be reached at some point.

Exactly. A currency backed by 40% silver is sound money with a guaranteed hedge. Only upside. If the inflation/devaluation/default is coming anyways - then this is a sound approach for cash. People with Producer Economy businesses (especially if they transact in $USD & $CAD) should applaud this move. There are many reasons for a business to hold cash - especially if you are still lucky enough to be throwing off free cash flow - and this is certainly a more Economically Stable approach.

Originally posted by DSpencer View Post

3. I assume if the price of silver rose above $20 per quarter oz they would start selling the coins over face value like they do now with many legal tender PM coins. If not, I guess you would have a de facto silver standard, right?

Correct. I have posted here before that I don't think "they" will allow full bullion backed money. That would simply be the "last option" where the US moves to a gold backed currency for International Trade settlements (or something similar).

A good "mid-step" would be a silver backed currency - and the math is an interesting fluke here.

================================================

(Advancing optimism to "getting drunk on my own cheap wine" ...)

- A quarter ounce backed $20 silver coin emerges at roughly 40% backing
- Inflation, devaluation, debt/credit default are all on the Horizon
- A 60% debt/credit deflation is certainly conceivable here over time
- If that were to occur, a Silver Maple or Eagle could easily become worth $80
- With gold at $1,350/oz - $80 silver gives a ratio of almost 17:1
- I believe 17:1 is very close to the naturally occurring Earth ratio

Then, once the $USD is forced onto some type of gold backing (5-20 years?) everything doubles or triples from there.

**Fiat Currency** · February 24, 2011, 08:28 PM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

From Zero Hedge ...

What You Need To Know About Buying Silver At A Time When Even The Canadian Mint Says "It Has Sold Everything It Has"

... while I did get my $20 silver coins (and they are absolutely beautiful !) my daughter got notice from the Mint that her coins have been "back ordered due to supply issues" ... which lends credibility to the story that even the Canadian Mint is having troubling sourcing silver.

You may recall the entire mintage was for 200,000 coins at a quarter oz each ... so 50,000 oz is giving them trouble ?? That's not a lot of silver for the CDN mint.

Interesting times.

**FondoFinder** · February 25, 2011, 06:41 AM

Re: Fractured Fiat Currency on display ...

Confirmed: "Due to high demand, this product will be shipped late March."

http://www.mint.ca/store/product/pro...Id=prod1040001

**Fiat Currency** · October 31, 2011, 03:13 PM

Canadian Mint comes to the market with Gold sale

Originally posted by Fiat Currency

I can't help but wonder if this isn't a little experiment for Ben & Mark. Although, we could do way worse than have Canada & the USA moving towards silver & gold backed currencies.

Global Fiat Currency Differentiation continues ...

The Royal Canadian Mint is getting into the gold-fund game.

Investors have long been able to buy gold from the mint. They will soon be able to invest in the gold and keep their bullion in the Royal Canadian Mint's vault.

The mint is planning a $250-million initial public offering of exchange traded receipts representing holdings of gold stored at the mint. The mint will take the proceeds of the offering, buy gold and put it in the vault.

The sale means the mint will be in direct competition with some private-sector offerings, including gold ETFs, the Sprott Physical Gold Trust (PHY.U-T14.79-0.14-0.94%) and Central Fund of Canada (CEF.A-T22.53-0.45-1.96%).

The mint, in an investor presentation, is billing the deal as the "purest gold listed investment in the world." Not only that, there's the Canadian government standing behind the gold holdings.

"Each Gold ETR constitutes a direct unconditional obligation of Her Majesty in right of Canada," the presentation says.

Just don't go thinking the government will be there to bail you out if gold crashes -- the Mint took pains to point out that "ETR holders will have no recourse to the Mint or the Government of Canada for any loss on their investment."

The Mint is said to have been thinking about such an offering for some time, but put out a request for proposals only a few weeks back. Through that process, Toronto-Dominion Bank and National Bank Financial won the rights to co-lead the deal.