Reversing a mistake

[Master Shake]

Medical Care: Monday's headline from Reuters — "Soaring costs force Canada to reassess health model" — is a warning. In the not-too-distant future, the headline will be used again, except "U.S." will replace "Canada."

The Canadian health care model is irreparably broken. Rather than reassess, Canada would be better off rejecting in whole a system that is not delivering. The publicly funded, single-payer program provides universal care, but its rationing is also universal — and sometimes deadly — and its costs are simply out of the universe.

Western dabbling in socialism has shown that public health care systems funded by other people's money are unsustainable. The provision of "free" care is a losing game. Because it is perceived to be free, demand in such a system will outstrip supply. Costs can't help but rise.

No country is more well acquainted with this dilemma than Canada, which finds itself, Reuters reports, "taking tough measures to curb health care costs" which "could erode the principles of the popular state-funded system."

And it is popular. Last year a Harris/Decima poll found that 82% of Canadians preferred their government health care system over the mixed system found in the U.S.

Given the widespread, agonizing and sometimes fatal waiting lists that plague the Canadian system, this finding is baffling. Regarding their state-run health care as part of their Canadian identity might be a touching display of sentimentality, but it is also a stubbornness that has led to trouble.

The popularity of the system doesn't make it functional, though. In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care. The Ontario government says health care spending could consume 70% of its budget within just 12 years.

"We are quickly hitting a point where either provinces can help educate our children, fix our roads and help our poor or they can maintain the status-quo in health care provision," Robert Silver, a Canadian lawyer who says he is "a big defender of aspects of our health system," wrote last year in the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Some of the blame can be placed on an aging population. Reuters reports that one-fourth of Canada's population in 2036 will be senior citizens. But it's the nature of the system, its near monopoly and its ambition to serve every Canadian, that makes it unsustainable. It has grown from 7% of provincial governments' spending in the 1970s to the 40% it is today merely because it is a government giveaway that people cannot get enough of.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...A-Mistake.aspx

[ViC78]

Re: Reversing a mistake

400px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.png

Health care cost rise based on total expenditure on health as % of GDP. Countries are USA, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, United Kingdom and Canada.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_..._United_States

[GRG55]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Medical Care: Monday's headline from Reuters — "Soaring costs force Canada to reassess health model" — is a warning. In the not-too-distant future, the headline will be used again, except "U.S." will replace "Canada."

The Canadian health care model is irreparably broken. Rather than reassess, Canada would be better off rejecting in whole a system that is not delivering. The publicly funded, single-payer program provides universal care, but its rationing is also universal — and sometimes deadly — and its costs are simply out of the universe.

Western dabbling in socialism has shown that public health care systems funded by other people's money are unsustainable. The provision of "free" care is a losing game. Because it is perceived to be free, demand in such a system will outstrip supply. Costs can't help but rise.

No country is more well acquainted with this dilemma than Canada, which finds itself, Reuters reports, "taking tough measures to curb health care costs" which "could erode the principles of the popular state-funded system."

And it is popular. Last year a Harris/Decima poll found that 82% of Canadians preferred their government health care system over the mixed system found in the U.S.

Given the widespread, agonizing and sometimes fatal waiting lists that plague the Canadian system, this finding is baffling. Regarding their state-run health care as part of their Canadian identity might be a touching display of sentimentality, but it is also a stubbornness that has led to trouble.

The popularity of the system doesn't make it functional, though. In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care. The Ontario government says health care spending could consume 70% of its budget within just 12 years.

"We are quickly hitting a point where either provinces can help educate our children, fix our roads and help our poor or they can maintain the status-quo in health care provision," Robert Silver, a Canadian lawyer who says he is "a big defender of aspects of our health system," wrote last year in the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Some of the blame can be placed on an aging population. Reuters reports that one-fourth of Canada's population in 2036 will be senior citizens. But it's the nature of the system, its near monopoly and its ambition to serve every Canadian, that makes it unsustainable. It has grown from 7% of provincial governments' spending in the 1970s to the 40% it is today merely because it is a government giveaway that people cannot get enough of.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...A-Mistake.aspx

Show me a perfect health care system.

Until then, as a Canadian, I'll take the one we have. It may not be perfect but it produces better results across the population base at less cost than the system in the United States. I can't recall a single year in at least the last 20 when someone didn't claim that the Canadian health care system was in "crisis", and there are certainly some serious things within it that need to be reformed. But I suspect just as circumstances change the system will continue to be adapted...and it'll continue to be imperfect and attract lots of criticism for that. But the United States isn't Canada, and it needs to find its own political solution to this most political of problems - what works up here probably won't work south of the 49th...in health care and pretty well most other political problems.

"...In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care..."

People who take a existing trend and extrapolate it uninterrupted in order to draw their desired conclusion have their heads up their asses. That applies to extrapolatiing constantly rising house prices, Nifty Fifty stocks, the price of oil or the public costs of health care. The author of the posted article falls firmly into this catagory.

[Master Shake]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Show me a perfect health care system.

Until then, as a Canadian, I'll take the one we have. It may not be perfect but it produces better results across the population base at less cost than the system in the United States. I can't recall a single year in at least the last 20 when someone didn't claim that the Canadian health care system was in "crisis", and there are certainly some serious things within it that need to be reformed. But I suspect just as circumstances change the system will continue to be adapted...and it'll continue to be imperfect and attract lots of criticism for that. But the United States isn't Canada, and it needs to find its own political solution to this most political of problems - what works up here probably won't work south of the 49th...in health care and pretty well most other political problems.

"...In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care..."

People who take a existing trend and extrapolate it uninterrupted in order to draw their desired conclusion have their heads up their asses. That applies to extrapolatiing constantly rising house prices, Nifty Fifty stocks, the price of oil or the public costs of health care. The author of the posted article falls firmly into this catagory.

Yep, just like all those Cassandras who were concerned about increasing levels of sovereign debt 10-15 years ago. Heads up their butt.

[GRG55]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Yep, just like all those Cassandras who were concerned about increasing levels of sovereign debt 10-15 years ago. Heads up their butt.

I gather then that you actually believe this idiot statement?

"...In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care..."

Sort of the same way you seem to believe that BP was solely responsible for the United States CIA deposing the elected government of Iran.

[metalman]

Re: Reversing a mistake

I gather then that you actually believe this idiot statement?

"...In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care..."

Sort of the same way you seem to believe that BP was solely responsible for the United States CIA deposing the elected government of Iran.

i do not swallow the 'bp is evil' story... it stinks of scapegoat... disgusting...



bp is cutting edge... accidents happen there...



we don't hear about the close calls...



99.99% don't know how hard it is to avoid this...



i could get disillusioned...



but i keep a sense of humor...



that's how they got by in the soviet union & in other 3rd world countries today.

[Master Shake]

Re: Reversing a mistake

I gather then that you actually believe this idiot statement?

"...In 2009, health care spending in Canada devoured 40% of the provincial governments' budgets and expenditures have been rising by 6% a year. At that rate, or even half that rate, it wouldn't be long before the provincial governments did nothing but fund health care..."

Sort of the same way you seem to believe that BP was solely responsible for the United States CIA deposing the elected government of Iran.

And, by the same token, it's absurd to claim that interest on the national debt will require 100% of government expenditures to fund. Therefore, we don't have to worry about sovereign debt.


Never said that BP was solely responsible for the CIA knocking off Mossa-whatever in the 50's, Mr. Straw Man. I don't think the author of the link I posted claimed that either.

[c1ue]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Canada's health care system's main problem isn't rising costs - as VIC78's graph shows, the US is by far the worse performer.

Canada's main problem is that it outlaws any other possible health care provider.

I do understand why - by doing so, Canada strives to provide a higher level of care than otherwise possible.

But ultimately by doing so, it then prevents individuals from making more informed decisions on those health care areas in which cost and benefit are more nebulous (both individually and societally): geriatric care and catastrophic care.

Quite honestly I do not see why a heart transplant for a 55 year old man should be considered a right - doubly so if his condition is due to lifestyle choices.

By the same token I feel strongly that a new born with a congenital heart defect should not be constrained by the choices of charity or familial financial situation.

[Master Shake]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Canada's health care system's main problem isn't rising costs - as VIC78's graph shows, the US is by far the worse performer.

No doubt due to our legions of malpractice attorneys and litigious society.

And Obamacare will only make costs rise even more.

[ViC78]

Re: Reversing a mistake

No doubt due to our legions of malpractice attorneys and litigious society.

Would you mind quantifying that?

[Scot]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Maybe I'm being too sensitive here, but I really don't enjoy seeing images that record the last seconds of anyone's life. And there was at least one died later after the pickup accident.

[Master Shake]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Would you mind quantifying that?

Yes, I would. I have a life outside this forum that keeps me busy.

[tmicou]

Re: Reversing a mistake

Yes, I would. I have a life outside this forum that keeps me busy.

Here, let me help you with quantifying that:

99% of attorney's give the rest a bad name.

There you go, it's Quantified.

[c1ue]

Re: Reversing a mistake

No doubt due to our legions of malpractice attorneys and litigious society.

And Obamacare will only make costs rise even more.

These are factors, but are not the ultimate factor.

The ultimate factor is longevity. People who live longer consume increasingly disproportionate amounts of health care.

Thus even in a system not specifically designed as a Ponzi, the mere fact that people live longer would nullify the original architecture of the system.

In something that is 'Pay as you go' - which is literally a Ponzi, it becomes completely untenable.

The reality of health care in this era is that you can spend massive amounts of money to extend a person's life by up to a decade.

This is a problem whether socialist or 'free market', but is exacerbated in our present situation because of distortions like Medicare. The biggest benefit of socialized medicine - which in turn is demonized as its 'bad' side - is rationing.

Perhaps some magical advance will appear which will obviate this requirement, but in my opinion we are going to have to make a decision at some point which will be rationing.

The main question then is what is rationed, and to who.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Reversing a mistake

People who live longer consume increasingly disproportionate amounts of health care.

That depends somewhat on what is the main cause of death of adults.

In primitive hunter-gatherer tribes, you're good to go until you lose a round with a saber tooth tiger or the warriors of a neighboring tribe.

In agricultural economies prior to modern medicine, you were good to go until some infectious disease, often associated with the higher population densities and close association with domesticated animals, took you out, usually after a brief illness.

In "modern" economies, it's the chronic illnesses of poor nutrition (plenty of cheap food, but not healthy food) that get you. These include diabetes, cancer, heart disease, stroke, obesity, liver failure, and such. These diseases often take a long time to kill, and provide much opportunity for expensive medical and pharmaceutical services and products in the interim.