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Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

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  • #16
    Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

    Originally posted by cjppc
    I am not commenting on the wisdom of these ideas. I am trying to point out that humanity has a certain way it exists. It never really changes.
    Perhaps you could elucidate on this statement.

    The free economic rent of today is not the same as medieval feudalism, for example.

    Medieval feudalism - the knight in the castle provided security for the peasants under him (optimist view)/held peasants up for ransom by making farming impossible (pessismist view).

    The dominant mechanism in medieval feudalism was raw military power and the economic rent was not free - knights had to build and maintain castles, to train, to maintain bodies of armed men, and to keep the uppity peasants down.

    Financial feudalism - FIRE today - is more a case of regulatory capture combined with predatory financial practices. Certainly enforcement of debt could be construed a military power issue, but the true basis of FIRE is parasitism on the PC economy via credit (availability, asset price increases from, interest carrying charges, etc).

    The banksters don't maintain any capital investment except perhaps a few banks of computers. They do maintain bodies of armed lobbyists. And they do maintain some form of 'soft' control over the uppity American (and world) populations. But this is not something that would withstand a military challenge such as was posed by Leninism, National Socialism, or outright military fascism.

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    • #17
      Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

      In the United States, you almost never own land "free and clear" if you define it as not paying any property taxes of any kind.

      Taxes in almost all instances must be paid for schools, for road/infrastructure maintenance, for local government, etc etc. Whether a farm is bought today, or bought 100 years ago, whether it is mortgaged or not, the occupants in both cases have a need (actuarially speaking) for all of these government related services.

      Thus to say that the family farm is somehow independent and thus should exist 'free and clear' without needing to contribute to the government directly around it is a libertarian fantasy: the children attend public schools, and/or the farmers get their water, electricity, natural gas, waste disposal via government installed/maintained easements and byways, and/or the farmers use roads coming in and out for transportation of persons and products, etc etc.

      Secondly your example is itself telling.

      While the tax value of agricultural land vs. urban is not explicitly spoken to in Dr. Hudson's speeches - as you must fully know, the property taxes on agricultural land are far below even the very low tax rates on urban property.

      There's a reason why Texas, for example, has an entire industry consisting of moving cows around other people's parcels: the cows constitute a minimum "agricultural" presence permitting far lower tax rates than if the exact same land is simply left unused/unpopulated.
      I would say that's the fallacy: that the government owns the land, or at least the permission to collect taxes on what it doesn't own.



      Here's an issue with your argument regarding the need to pay property taxes for services rendered. Consider two similar sized parcels located relatively near to each other:
      • Parcel #1: family farm, 2 buildings, dirt road from paved county road, kids all grown up not in school.
      • Parcel #2: Chemical plant, multiple large facilities, high electrical usage, multiple road access, cause traffic on said roads, etc. etc.
      If property taxes were indeed only to pay for government services, parcel #1 should pay a miniscule fraction of the taxes of parcel #2. According to Hudson, taxes don't pay for services, but are a tool of social engineering to encourage development.

      I do know that taxes on agricultural land are less than that used for other purposes, but that's the way it is, not what Hudson is recommending as far as I can see. He apparently wants the opposite, flat property tax rates based on acerage, not usage.

      I say, phooey on that. We have too darn much social engineering going on. Plus, I, for one, don't think development is all that great a thing in all cases.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

        Originally posted by c1ue View Post
        Perhaps you could elucidate on this statement.

        The free economic rent of today is not the same as medieval feudalism, for example.

        Medieval feudalism - the knight in the castle provided security for the peasants under him (optimist view)/held peasants up for ransom by making farming impossible (pessismist view).

        The dominant mechanism in medieval feudalism was raw military power and the economic rent was not free - knights had to build and maintain castles, to train, to maintain bodies of armed men, and to keep the uppity peasants down.

        Financial feudalism - FIRE today - is more a case of regulatory capture combined with predatory financial practices. Certainly enforcement of debt could be construed a military power issue, but the true basis of FIRE is parasitism on the PC economy via credit (availability, asset price increases from, interest carrying charges, etc).

        The banksters don't maintain any capital investment except perhaps a few banks of computers. They do maintain bodies of armed lobbyists. And they do maintain some form of 'soft' control over the uppity American (and world) populations. But this is not something that would withstand a military challenge such as was posed by Leninism, National Socialism, or outright military fascism.
        I am not commenting on systems or ideas. I previously said:

        The problem it seems to me with Hudson, or MMT is that it leads people to think a new system will take care of everything.

        Without real change in the individual we can see that today, the 7 deadly sins are still as strong in us as yesterday. No disrespect to Dr. Hudson or his ideas, I just don't think in the long run it really matters. Now this is for the most part an economics forum, I just wish people would think a little more about the results of not fighing the 7 deadly sins. I see Stephen Hawkins has now changed his mind regarding a creator. A brilliant man who could not be more wrong. For him it is probably easier to create theories then fight the fight.

        Sorry C1ue I'm rambling and in a mood.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
          Perhaps you could elucidate on this statement.

          The free economic rent of today is not the same as medieval feudalism, for example.

          Medieval feudalism - the knight in the castle provided security for the peasants under him (optimist view)/held peasants up for ransom by making farming impossible (pessismist view).

          The dominant mechanism in medieval feudalism was raw military power and the economic rent was not free - knights had to build and maintain castles, to train, to maintain bodies of armed men, and to keep the uppity peasants down.

          Financial feudalism - FIRE today - is more a case of regulatory capture combined with predatory financial practices. Certainly enforcement of debt could be construed a military power issue, but the true basis of FIRE is parasitism on the PC economy via credit (availability, asset price increases from, interest carrying charges, etc).

          The banksters don't maintain any capital investment except perhaps a few banks of computers. They do maintain bodies of armed lobbyists. And they do maintain some form of 'soft' control over the uppity American (and world) populations. But this is not something that would withstand a military challenge such as was posed by Leninism, National Socialism, or outright military fascism.
          One of the main questions I ask myself is whether the US military will be the institution to set FIRE out on its ear when push comes to shove. Or whether the tenticles of finance have reached so deeply into the military hierarchy through the military-congressional-industrial complex that it too has been co-opted. The debt pyramid is very powerful and seductive if you have a seat at the table, even to generals.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

            I have read that somewhere between 18 and 25 Pentagon brass have their own private Lear jets. I would assume they are comfortable with the status quo.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

              Originally posted by don View Post
              I have read that somewhere between 18 and 25 Pentagon brass have their own private Lear jets. I would assume they are comfortable with the status quo.
              Yuck.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

                Originally posted by don View Post
                I have read that somewhere between 18 and 25 Pentagon brass have their own private Lear jets. I would assume they are comfortable with the status quo.
                I don't believe that the generals own Lear Jets -- However, according to Chalmers Johnson - America’s Empire of Bases

                Our armed missionaries live in a closed-off, self-contained world serviced by its own airline—the Air Mobility Command, with its fleet of long-range C-17 Globemasters, C-5 Galaxies, C-141 Starlifters, KC-135 Stratotankers, KC-10 Extenders, and C-9 Nightingales that link our far-flung outposts from Greenland to Australia. For generals and admirals, the military provides seventy-one Learjets, thirteen Gulfstream IIIs, and seventeen Cessna Citation luxury jets to fly them to such spots as the armed forces’ ski and vacation center at Garmisch in the Bavarian Alps or to any of the 234 military golf courses the Pentagon operates worldwide. Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld flies around in his own personal Boeing 757, called a C-32A in the Air Force.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

                  Originally posted by Jay View Post
                  Yuck.
                  Jay -- your iTulip private message inbox is full.
                  Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Michael Hudson interview by Xulin Dong: a great overview on property taxes and free economic rent

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    Jay -- your iTulip private message inbox is full.
                    Er eh -- that didn't last long -- Jay your inbox is full again (too bad there is no better way to send such notices.)
                    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                    Comment

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