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Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

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  • Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

    And yet again, the CAGW/CO2 argument takes another body blow.

    A series of expeditions in and around Greenland, due not in the least to a territorial dispute between Denmark and Norway, show that the Greenland glaciers were in fact melting in the 1920s and 1930s due to the warm spell then.

    And more importantly, had clearly recovered from that period.

    Thus the meme that Greenland's glaciers will all melt and raise sea levels XXX meters must account for the fact that the change in said glaciers is not one way. And we've had stable to falling temperatures for some 15 years now.

    Other key points:

    Public acknowledgement that temperatures in the 1920s and 1930s were as hot or hotter than the warmest parts of the last 2 decades.

    Public acknowledgement that glaciers can and do recover even in short time periods.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/3...nd/#more-64556

    From the University of Copenhagen comes realization that Greenland’s current warm spell is not unprecedented.

    In the early 1920s and 1930s, temperatures were high, similar to that of the present, and this affected the glacial melt. At the time many glaciers underwent a melt similar or even higher than what we have seen in the last ten years.

    The glaciers in southeast Greenland are retreating rapidly with the ongoing global climate change. But now research from the University of Copenhagen shows that the glaciers can recuperate within a short timeframe if temperatures are to drop. The results are based on a collection of Danish aerial photos combined with both old and modern satellite imagery as well as field work. The scientific results have created international attention and have been published as a cover story in the highly esteemed journal Nature Geoscience.



    “We have managed to get an overview of the glacial evolution over a period of 80 years. This is the first time ever this has been done in a study of glaciers in Greenland. Results show that glaciers can recuperate within a short time frame if climate changes and temperatures drop, as it has in a period after the 1940s,” says PhD student and lead-author on the project Anders Bjørk, from Professor Eske Willerslev’s Centre for GeoGenetics from University of Copenhagen.

    Anders Bjørk adds:

    “Most of the scientific foundation, models, and theories on glaciers in Greenland and how global warming affects them are based on observations from satellites over the last ten years. Otherwise scientists have had to use previous warming events way into the past when wanting to compare today’s massive retreat.”

    A fight for land between Denmark and Norway

    The Danish explorer Knud Rasmussen and his seventh Thule-expedition in 1932-33 is a significant cause for the recent publication from Anders Bjørk and Dr. Kurt H. Kjær from the Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen.
    Results have created international attention as Greenland stands as an important region for northern latitudes are affecting the rest of the earth’s climate – including changes in glacial conditions and related sea-level rise.

    Originally the many aerial photos, which have been achieved Danish National Survey and Cadastre, were used for producing new maps of the region in the early 1930s, as Denmark and Norway were fighting over the right of disposal of East Greenland, a fight without casualties which Denmark won at the International Court in Haag in the Netherlands in 1933.

    Photos get a renaissanse

    With help from the scientists and the Danish National Survey and Cadastre, the unique aerial photos have now gained a renaissance in a different setting where climate change and theories as “The Tipping Point” – where nature reaches a point where changes cannot be reversed are discussed.


    “We have investigated no less than 132 glaciers on a 600 km coastal stretch in Southeast Greenland, both those who terminate on land and those who calve in the ocean. The historical photos have proven to be extremely valuable, and with these photos and other aerial photos recorded later during WWII and satellite imagery we are able to observe glacier change in very long historical context. In the early 1920s and 1930s, temperatures were high, similar to that of the present, and this affected the glacial melt. At the time many glaciers underwent a melt similar or even higher than what we have seen in the last ten years. When it became colder again in the 1950s and 1960s, glaciers actually started growing,” says Dr. Kurt H. Kjær and underlines:

    “There should be no doubt that if the current temperature rise in Greenland continues then we will have problems with the melting of the glaciers. We are already seeing it now on the marine terminating glaciers where changes in temperature and ocean currents are influencing their stability. Another remarkable discovery we did was that the observed changes are not just local, it is happening in the entire region,” says Dr. Kjær.

    Kurt H. Kjær has previously worked with his colleague Svend Funder from Center for GeoGenetics on investigating sea ice extent in the Arctic Ocean. Results showed that the sea ice extent has been far from stable throughout the last 10,000 years.

    Read the scientists’ newly published paper in Nature GeoScience .

  • #2
    Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

    Why this information should be considered a "body blow" a "the CAGW/CO2 argument" is beyond me.

    Clearly, as pointed out by Dr. Kurt H. Kjaer:

    “There should be no doubt that if the current temperature rise in Greenland continues then we will have problems with the melting of the glaciers.
    I read this as saying that there has indeed been a recent rise in temperatures to cause the glaciers to melt, and furthermore "there should be no doubt" any continual temperature rise will be problematic with this melting.

    That the glaciers have melted during past warming and then recovered when temperatures fell again is an entirely understandable and acceptable premise, and this article in no way delivers said body blow to the argument that present day and ongoing CO2 increases do pose and will continue to pose temperature elevations (and other climate altered related problems) that are causing the glaciers to melt away.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

      Originally posted by godraz
      I read this as saying that there has indeed been a recent rise in temperatures to cause the glaciers to melt, and furthermore "there should be no doubt" any continual temperature rise will be problematic with this melting.
      The point being: the increased temperatures prior to our present cooling spell are not unique.

      No one disputes that higher temperatures will cause glaciers to melt; the crux of the CAGW argument is that the present temperature increase is both unique and caused by CO2 levels.

      We've already established that the temperatures are not unique.

      If in fact the present temperature levels are due to CO2, then what caused the 1920s/1930s temperature increase?

      CO2 levels then were in the 300 ppm range, while today we are nearing 390 ppm. And lest you think that the CO2 levels had somehow increased radically - in fact the CO2 levels for 40 years before that were in the 280 ppm range. An increase, but far less than the increase in CO2 during the 1950s to 1960s cooling era.

      Yet temperatures are not higher nor have they been consistently going up.

      This strikes directly at the argument that CO2 levels correlate with temperature, and at the extrapolations which link increased CO2 levels with 3, 4 or even 7 degree Celsius temperature increases by 2100.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

        I think it mistaken to claim that the "crux of the CAGW argument is that the present temperature increase is both unique and caused by CO2 levels." This obfuscates the whole dispute and clearly suggests (whether intentionally or not) climatologists are unaware of, deniers even, of knowing about and acknowledging any and all earlier periods of warmer temperature epochs. Pure poppycock this is.

        With regard to any uniqueness of this concern, I think it more accurate of it and those involved to state that it is the human induced quality that is unique.

        I can not imagine you'd argue that the CO2 level increases you cite are purely the result of some heretofore unknown natural act. Therefore the primary cause of the spike in atmospheric CO2 levels are in fact due to humankind's profligate burning of fossil fuels over the past century plus, and that is what is unique.

        Be that as it may, what I simply contested here, and did so with fair justification while citing Dr. Karl H. Kjaer's own understanding of the facts, was your dry-labbing claim that this article amounts to a "body blow" against this very real and unique experiment we are presently undertaking.

        Beyond attempting to right this wrong, I see no point in wasting my time here. It is clear you believe this uniquely human induced CO2 experiment is not really happening, nor a threat to our collective well being -- precisely for being so unpredictable -- and this is where we part company.



        “What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”— Mark Twain

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

          Originally posted by godraz
          I think it mistaken to claim that the "crux of the CAGW argument is that the present temperature increase is both unique and caused by CO2 levels." This obfuscates the whole dispute and clearly suggests (whether intentionally or not) climatologists are unaware of, deniers even, of knowing about and acknowledging any and all earlier periods of warmer temperature epochs. Pure poppycock this is.
          Perhaps you might state what your understanding of the dispute then.

          There is all sorts of evidence including the infamous hockey stick, Al Gore's movie, IPCC summaries for policy makers, and so on and so forth which shows the consensus is in fact very much stating what I noted above.

          To deny that there are literally hundreds of press releases, scientific papers, and what not directly linking CO2 levels with future temperatures increases - where is the poppycock then?

          Originally posted by godraz
          With regard to any uniqueness of this concern, I think it more accurate of it and those involved to state that it is the human induced quality that is unique.
          Given that you disagreed with what I put forth - and in turn put forth an extremely vague statement, perhaps you can be more clear precisely what this human induced quality is, how it is measured, and what proof there is.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

            Still waiting for the 'correct' understanding of the CAGW dispute.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Photos of Greenland show "It is not different this time"

              1 week, and still nothing.

              Apparently the 'obvious' isn't so obvious.

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