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Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

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  • lektrode
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    Ahahaha! Understood!
    +2
    only one better n that would be... uhhhh 'the artist formerly known as... the purple one's fave little red...'



    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    I'm not suggesting that all large cars and trucks have no use. ....
    ...
    but rather than enjoy the savings and continue to find ways to conserve a depleting resource, large numbers of people took the savings from the cheaper gasoline and spent it all and then some on cars that got lousy gas mileage last seen in the 1970s.
    and i share that frustration - altho my POV is that the auto cos, rather than put all the advancements in engine tech, matls, etc into developing vehicles with MPG like the foreign mfrs have been doing for decades - we now get cars that just go faster/quicker up to the next red light...

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by lektrode View Post
    WHERE are you hauling stuff: in a urban/metro 'hood - or out in the wild wild west, climbing over 10-12000 foot mountain passes - where a loaded-up wagon with 4cyl engine doesnt quite git it - esp out on the interstate, where yer getting practically run over if yer not going at least 75

    HOW MANY are going with you and HOW LONG of a voyage are ya headin out on
    I'm not suggesting that all large cars and trucks have no use. However, at least in Houston, practically no one climbs 12,000 foot mountain passes, goes off-road through a forest, or whatever. If you're ever around here, take a look and see for yourself. Almost without fail, it's one person (on the weekdays) or a three or four person family (on the weekends) in a car going on paved, concrete roads to some air conditioned place with a paved concrete parking lot.

    For doing work and hauling stuff, most everyone around here drives a pickup truck or a modified one with a covered cargo area.

    I guess it's pretty obvious by now that SUVs are a pet peeve of mine. In 1998 or thereabouts when gasoline fell to $0.899/gallon, I thought to myself, "What a great place this country is! Where else but the United States of America could a finite supply, critical resource such as gasoline actually fall in price over time?" I suppose I should have seen it coming but rather than enjoy the savings and continue to find ways to conserve a depleting resource, large numbers of people took the savings from the cheaper gasoline and spent it all and then some on cars that got lousy gas mileage last seen in the 1970s.

    Nevermind the risks that these vehicles pose to their drivers and to other vehicles. I worked at a company where a very bright young man died because the SUV he was in rolled over. The young man suffered a head injury while the other three passengers escaped relatively unharmed. This was before the revelation of the Firestone tires and Ford's complicity in not disclosing a problem. Everyone thought it was just bad luck that they just somehow lost control of the car. There were no drugs or alcohol to have impaired the driver.

    I also once was on a freeway when an SUV pointlessly sped to get ahead of me (I was already doing close to 70 MPH) in relatively busy traffic. In the lane right of me and slightly ahead by less than a car length, imagine what went through my head when I saw one of his tires blow out. Fortunately for everyone in the vicinity, his car pulled to the right where there was no traffic and he was able to eventually regain control of his car and drive it onto the shoulder. No one was injured and the driver was merely out a few hundred dollars for new tires.

    I currently have a very short daily commute so this doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. However, if I had to commute a long distance in heavy traffic, I'd seriously consider spending the money to join the arms race of bigger, heavier vehicles. Either that or buy a Mercedes-Benz S-class car which is really good at protecting its passengers in crashes.

    Leave a comment:


  • lektrode
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    ....
    The only appeal I see in driving an SUV is that it is useful a person who typically has a lot of passengers (this is the rarest use case, at least in Houston) or it's a bigger gun in the arms race to drive the biggest, heaviest vehicle on the road to better your odds of survival in the event of a collision with another vehicle.

    Of course, perhaps it's just me. I'm highly resistant to advertising and find that oftentimes, advertisements have the exact opposite effect on me. .....
    +1
    but the SUV thing is more perspective than anything else, IMHO Mr K - 'it all depends', as it were - on things like WHAT are you needing to haul around with you = a lifestyle aspect (stuff like camping, fishing, boating, skiing eqpt - esp with kids and dogs)

    WHERE are you hauling stuff: in a urban/metro 'hood - or out in the wild wild west, climbing over 10-12000 foot mountain passes - where a loaded-up wagon with 4cyl engine doesnt quite git it - esp out on the interstate, where yer getting practically run over if yer not going at least 75

    HOW MANY are going with you and HOW LONG of a voyage are ya headin out on

    typing as one who has been weekend-trek'g in a small wagon (4cyl, maybe getting 28-30mpg, but when all loaded up with all the above mentioned stuff, gets more like 21 - never mind when humping it all up/over mtn passes...)
    something like a chevy suburban - which these days are touted as getting 20+ on the open road - starts to make lots of sense, vs much smaller vehicles - and must say i'm tempted to buy one - altho a sprinter van with the mercedes diesel is really more my style - and i'm told these get upwards of 26mpg

    so guess 'it all depends' on what one is going to be doing - sides driving around the 'hood looking for a parking stall at the mall, eh?

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by aaron View Post
    I could not understand why people spent all that money on an SUV or fancy cars either. If you do not know what you are missing than it does seem so wasteful. A BMW and a Camry both get you from A to B. The difference is one is enjoyable to drive while the other is enjoyable get out of . 10% of your waking life might be spent in your vehicle. The "tremendous" amount of money has been worth it every day. I only regret I was so conservative in my auto purchases 10 years ago.
    By the way, you quoted me, not Ghent12.

    But I was not suggesting that people ditch their SUVs for adequate cars (Camry) or crappy cars. Something like a BMW sedan or coupe is what I would consider a pretty nice ride.

    The only appeal I see in driving an SUV is that it is useful a person who typically has a lot of passengers (this is the rarest use case, at least in Houston) or it's a bigger gun in the arms race to drive the biggest, heaviest vehicle on the road to better your odds of survival in the event of a collision with another vehicle.

    Of course, perhaps it's just me. I'm highly resistant to advertising and find that oftentimes, advertisements have the exact opposite effect on me. I've had friends tell me that driving a sports car makes them feel young while driving a minivan makes them feel old. I've never had any such emotions driving any car. My opinions are coldly objective: the car is a POS, it's pretty nice, or something in between.

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
    Vehicles tie in with so many other aspects of life besides mere transportation that to discount the choices Americans make is to discount hard reality.
    That's sad but true in so many ways.

    Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
    As an example, I can tell you that had I not purchased a brand new Mustang GT years ago by going into some significant debt and instead purchased a modest/nice sedan for the purpose of efficiently taking me from point A to point B, my quality of life would very likely be substantially lower. I'll let you speculate as to how, but it should be fairly obvious.
    Ahahaha! Understood!

    Leave a comment:


  • aaron
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
    Americans spend tremendous amounts of money on things that do not improve their standards of living at all.

    I could not understand why people spent all that money on an SUV or fancy cars either. If you do not know what you are missing than it does seem so wasteful. A BMW and a Camry both get you from A to B. The difference is one is enjoyable to drive while the other is enjoyable get out of . 10% of your waking life might be spent in your vehicle. The "tremendous" amount of money has been worth it every day. I only regret I was so conservative in my auto purchases 10 years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghent12
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    While the average and poor American is better off than people in the nations of Africa or other basket case countries, I really don't consider that a valid comparison. That's setting the bar low and not worthy of a great country. The truth of the matter is that an unbelievable amount of purchasing power (wealth) has been stolen from Americans: blatantly via the Wall Street bailouts and surreptitiously via high inflation through QE and ZIRP. But rather than buckling down and saving money (and maybe read some books to improve their minds to be able to recognize that an unworthy Congress should be voted out of office), Americans are going into debt, with tremendous encouragement from the Fed, to maintain an unrealistic rate of consumption.

    I've always viewed my fellow Americans as terribly wasteful and the SUV is probably the worst example of American excess. In the past, Americans truly were wealthy enough to spend money on single-passenger minibuses that got lousy gas mileage to flaunt their wealth just as we all flaunt our well-manicured lawns. A good number of Americans are poor today because, in addition to the government and Federal Reserve stealing from them through fiscal and monetary scams, Americans spend tremendous amounts of money on things that do not improve their standards of living at all. For the vast majority of Americans who drive SUVs, they would suffer no reduction in quality of life or comfort if they chose to drive a nice sedan or coupe instead.
    I don't disagree at all that Americans have made significant losses in terms of purchasing power relative to other countries, nor will I necessarily disagree that wealth accumulation in America has been dampened significantly by fiscal and monetary policies of government and semi-government institutions. However, comparing American wealth to other countries at present and comparing it to previous time points are not the only ways to compare wealth or to measure wealth. In absolute terms which are as objective as is possible on such a subjective thing as wealth, American wealth continues to increase. An SUV isn't merely a wasteful show or expression of excess, it is a form of wealth accumulation. While the price may creep up and keep pace with or exceed monetary inflation, it is generally true that comparing a vehicle to even last year's model is typically an exercise in futility, leave alone comparisons to models five or ten years old. Contrary to what you seem to believe a nice car, sometimes especially a flashy one, does increase the standard of living for a great many Americans. Vehicles tie in with so many other aspects of life besides mere transportation that to discount the choices Americans make is to discount hard reality.

    As an example, I can tell you that had I not purchased a brand new Mustang GT years ago by going into some significant debt and instead purchased a modest/nice sedan for the purpose of efficiently taking me from point A to point B, my quality of life would very likely be substantially lower. I'll let you speculate as to how, but it should be fairly obvious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
    Many Americans might be poor by American standards, but all Americans, even the homeless, are uber-rich compared to other standards. Wealth can be defined in absolute terms or relative terms and everyone would do well to maintain an objective perspective on the subject.
    The wealth of Americans has fallen by an astonishing amount in the past decade or so when when compared to other standards. In the early 2000s, I was able to purchase one Canadian dollar for about USD $0.65, one Swiss franc for about USD $0.75, one Euro for about USD $1.00, eight Chinese yuan for USD $1.00, or one British pound for about USD $1.60. I was fortunate enough to actually travel to all of those places when they were relatively inexpensive.

    As all of us here on iTulip know, all currencies depreciate in absolute terms and some currencies depreciate more than others. Here's how many of each of the aforementioned currencies one US dollar will buy today:

    CAD 1.00 = USD $0.91; the Canadian dollar has nearly 50% more purchasing power against the USD
    CHF 1.10 = USD $1.00; a Swiss franc is now almost 50% more expensive than it was
    EUR 1.00 = USD $1.34; the Euro is 34% more expensive than it was
    CNY 6.16 = USD $1.00; the Chinese yuan is 30% more expensive than it was
    GBP 1.00 = USD $1.67; the British pound and US dollar have depreciated approximately the same amount

    While the average and poor American is better off than people in the nations of Africa or other basket case countries, I really don't consider that a valid comparison. That's setting the bar low and not worthy of a great country. The truth of the matter is that an unbelievable amount of purchasing power (wealth) has been stolen from Americans: blatantly via the Wall Street bailouts and surreptitiously via high inflation through QE and ZIRP. But rather than buckling down and saving money (and maybe read some books to improve their minds to be able to recognize that an unworthy Congress should be voted out of office), Americans are going into debt, with tremendous encouragement from the Fed, to maintain an unrealistic rate of consumption.

    I've always viewed my fellow Americans as terribly wasteful and the SUV is probably the worst example of American excess. In the past, Americans truly were wealthy enough to spend money on single-passenger minibuses that got lousy gas mileage to flaunt their wealth just as we all flaunt our well-manicured lawns. A good number of Americans are poor today because, in addition to the government and Federal Reserve stealing from them through fiscal and monetary scams, Americans spend tremendous amounts of money on things that do not improve their standards of living at all. For the vast majority of Americans who drive SUVs, they would suffer no reduction in quality of life or comfort if they chose to drive a nice sedan or coupe instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghent12
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

    This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!
    Many Americans might be poor by American standards, but all Americans, even the homeless, are uber-rich compared to other standards. Wealth can be defined in absolute terms or relative terms and everyone would do well to maintain an objective perspective on the subject.

    SUVs are here to stay because they offer so much of what Americans value. Principally, they offer freedom. Even ardent socialists, ones that despise their fellow free man, crave and exercise their freedom regularly. I'm not just talking about the optics of being higher up, which is probably pretty significant psychologically, but also the notion that the SUV offers a single source of escape, should the need or desire ever arise. An SUV owner can reasonably assume that they can take the entire family away for a week or more anywhere at any time, and that mere possibility is a truly American expression. It's the same concept behind gun ownership specifically for self-defense--it's the idea which is so appealing far above and beyond any statistical likelihood or probability. It's why electric cars limited to commuter ranges can never take any significant market share, and it's why preferences for gas-guzzlers of all stripes are fairly resilient to changes in the cost of gasoline.

    Americans are rich beyond the dreams of their distant ancestors, and will express their wealth in typical American fashion.

    Leave a comment:


  • seobook
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

    I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.
    About twelve years ago I was turning on a corner where it was about a 120 degree corner. A lovely SUV was (likely illegally?) parked right on the corner, so there was no way to actually make the turn and stay in the lane without smashing that SUV. Someone who was in the other lane coming the other way was a fairly aloof driver and was hugging the center line. I did my best to stop while hoping to not get rear ended, nonetheless a 1 inch paint scratch = a $600 fail for me. Ever since that day I've looked down on tinted window SUVs parked on the corner.

    As long as the SUV doesn't tip over they are likely safer, but if you flip then all that weight which was working for you suddenly starts working against you. And momentum being what it is, they are harder to stop to avoid accidents from happening.

    When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff."
    I think so much of this is a failure to connect A to B. The problem is not seen as the gas consumption, but the gas price itself. It being "expensive" is a temporary condition.

    "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people."
    I think Don posted a link here a week or two back to a NYTimes article about subprime auto loans that echoed subprime mortgages.
    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/07/...ky-high-rates/
    like subprime mortgages before the financial crisis, many subprime auto loans are bundled into complex bonds and sold as securities by banks to insurance companies, mutual funds and public pension funds a process that creates ever-greater demand for loans.
    not only are some of the loans for cars at inflated prices, but now all sorts of junk fees are being added into the auto loans
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/gm-fi...nts-1407165787
    In June, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency noted that the average amount of an auto loan was greater than the value of the car during the fourth quarter of 2013, as lenders bundled the costs of extended warranties, credit life insurance and dealer-installed accessories into contracts.
    that last quote was from a recent article about the US DoJ investigating subprime loans from 2007.

    plenty of advertising and marketing and salesmen promoting the value of those junk add ons, but who makes money when pitching the counter view? nobody. that's why it's only at iTulip. ;)

    nobody could have seen it coming TM

    "The Jones'(average American consumers) can consume longer than you can remain prudent(or sane?)."
    perhaps add to that ... and when the music ends, you'll be footing the bill.

    Leave a comment:


  • lakedaemonian
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

    This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!
    Maybe time to update Keynes quote:

    "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

    to

    "The Jones'(average American consumers) can consume longer than you can remain prudent(or sane?)."

    Reminds me of this old 80's reboot Twilight Zone episode:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTKrZpY7Krc

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
    Surely at some stage those "petrol insurance premiums"(paying more to feel safer) will become untenable with the biggest of vehicles for average folks.
    Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

    This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!

    Leave a comment:


  • lakedaemonian
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
    I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

    I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.
    Yeah...some of the bigger and more powerful US made cars are making some surprising gains on energy efficiency....which IS great to see.

    And bodes well for a future where energy ultra efficiency eventually eclipses the current "ultra cool, but a little bit more efficient"..at least for us little people.

    We've already made the switch to the current ultra-efficient vehicles in their respective classes. Both small turbo diesels.

    One is a small(new small, not old small...which is still old medium sized) 4 door hatch

    One is a small 4 door ute

    I do worry sometimes with my wife usually driving the car(not sitting as high as the ute), but it does have an excellent safety review(for it's class)...and I've spent a good bit of time with her on formal driver training that focused on maintaining situational awareness as well as learning the capabilities/limitations of her vehicle.

    Surely at some stage those "petrol insurance premiums"(paying more to feel safer) will become untenable with the biggest of vehicles for average folks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Milton Kuo
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Originally posted by Slimprofits View Post
    Everyone that I've ever asked that doesn't actually haul anything around (obviously not a scientific poll) says they drive those big ass SUVs and trucks because it makes them feel safer, being "higher up". I call BS on this and would wager that it's an ingenious line invented in a marketing department that consumer quickly learned to parrot.
    I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

    I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slimprofits
    replied
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    Everyone that I've ever asked that doesn't actually haul anything around (obviously not a scientific poll) says they drive those big ass SUVs and trucks because it makes them feel safer, being "higher up". I call BS on this and would wager that it's an ingenious line invented in a marketing department that consumer quickly learned to parrot.

    Leave a comment:

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