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Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

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  • #31
    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

    OH BOY!!
    this is a good one (mr c1ue, you've done it again ;) - we even get EJ for 'no extra charge' - but why is it eye always find em just as i've burnt up my allottment of 'tulip time for the day!?

    back later when have more time, since, as some might guess, these kind are my faves (well... sides gold, the political economy, crony capitalist exposez and general campaign muckraking), but have to take advantage of the wx oppty of the moment, so TA TA for now!

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

      Originally posted by EJ View Post
      You may recall this from the section in my book The Postcatastrophe Economy: Rebuilding America and Avoiding the Next Bubble on pure electric vehicles:

      "Other limitations are heating and cooling the passenger compartment. The passenger compartment of an auto is an especially difficult space to cool: it’s a kind of rolling glass greenhouse with usually dark surfaces inside that collect heat. Car air conditioners have the capacity of home air conditioners. They consume prodigious quantities of energy. For an electric car, that translates into vastly reduced range if the batteries are used to power the A/C in the summer. Heating an electric car in the winter is even worse. It’s equivalent to shorting out the batteries to heat an element to warm the passengers. Having to choose between the heat or running out of power needed to get home from a trip that was not carefully estimated by the driver beforehand is enough to make the electric car a non-starter as a replacement for pure internal combustion or hybrid cars."

      I go on to say:

      "Motorcycle riders are not heated or cooled. Motorcycles are an ideal application of pure electric power. Santa Cruz, California–based Zero Motorcycles, founded by Neal Saiki, makes the only pure electric motorcycles that are true substitutes for gasoline powered bikes. They are quiet and are screaming fast. With a range of only 60 miles and needing four hours to charge, they are not intended to as sole source of personal transportation."

      I bought a Zero S in May 2011. I have gone 60 miles on a charge as advertised but only by avoiding hilly terrain and fast acceleration, and staying on back roads with speed limits of 30MPH or less. Typically I get 40 miles in agressive riding, plenty to get me to meetings in Boston and back from the burbs. The power gauge is highly accurate but the battery recharges in 2.5 not 2 hours with a second charger as advertised.

      The new Zero S shipping next month is more promising as a fossil fuel burning motorcycle replacement. It's 40 lbs heavier but range has more than doubled due to an upgraded battery with twice the power density of the old battery, a new power control system, and a power recovery system that has two benefits. One of the drawbacks of the early Zero models is that all braking has to be done with the brakes. The bike coasts like a bicycle rather than a motorcycle that slows when the throttle is turned down and the drive train works against engine cylinder compression. The new Zero S is more like a real motorcycle with motor braking that additionally recharges the battery. The independently verified range is now 114 miles versus 40, meaning you can likely get as much as 130 and in heavy use around 100. That's four hours of average 50MPH riding, longer than riders will want to do at a stretch on a small 340 lb bike without a break when the battery can be topped off anywhere there's a 15AMP 120VAC plug, laptop style. The battery is rated for 3,000 recharge cycles giving the battery a 300,000 mile lifespan.

      So, pure electric passenger cars, no. Pure electric vehicles are only viable as fleet delivery vehicles that make short range trips from a single location. But pure electric motorcycles will succeed in the market as battery power density, motor efficiency, and energy recovery improves.
      http://gas2.org/2014/03/16/first-9-d...-2014-zero-sr/

      Interesting review on the new Zero SR

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

        Major motorcycle manufacturer, and the last one you would expect(Harley-Davidson), is joining the pure electric motorcycle market:

        http://project.harley-davidson.com/

        http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bike...vewire-photos/

        Comment


        • #34
          it sounds like a jet

          Whispering Harleys

          By DEXTER FORD


          Harley’s Electric Prototyp







          Sales of electric motorcycles are just a tiny slice of a market that totals about 370,000 road-legal motorcycles a year in the United States, but Harley-Davidson, the proudly American maker of rumbling, brawny heavyweights, is hinting that it would like to change that.

          On June 24, the Milwaukee-based company will introduce its Project LiveWire Experience, a traveling event that will offer licensed riders a chance to try an electric Harley. The program, for which some 30 prototype electric motorcycles were built, heads from New York to Chicago and will then work its way along Route 66 to Santa Monica, Calif., stopping at dealerships and other locations along the way. Details on scheduling and sites are available at project.harley-davidson.com.

          Harley-Davidson is certainly not the obvious candidate to lead the movement toward a whisper-quiet, electron-motivated future. The 111-year-old company has thrived by selling a line consisting mainly of retro-style bikes that recall models from a half-century ago.

          In recent years, though, the downturn and the inevitable aging of its boomer customers made it clear that survival would depend on more diverse market appeal. The company recently introduced two smaller, more modern models, the Street 500 and Street 750, designed to appeal to younger customers around the world.

          The LiveWire Project is the next major effort, and one that could put Harley ahead of its global competitors in the race to make a commercially successful electric machine. American companies like Zero and Brammo have introduced innovative and attractive bikes, but the high price of lithium-ion batteries and the small number of brand dealerships has limited growth.

          Harley-Davidson says it has no plans at this time to produce and sell the LiveWire to the public. Still, it has clearly made a significant investment in bringing the prototypes up to the expected levels of style, performance and finish necessary before letting the public try them (and then splashing their impressions all over the Internet).

          The goal, Harley said, was to create a machine with the personality and desirability that existing electric motorcycles lack.

          “It’s ultimately a challenge about whether riding an electric motorcycle can be an emotional experience or only a rational one,” Mark-Hans Richer, Harley-Davidson’s senior vice president and chief marketing officer, said.

          “To be a true Harley, it has to have character,” Mr. Richer said. “It has to be cool. It has to make you feel something important about yourself.”

          Mr. Richer added that a static display of the bike was not sufficient. “We didn’t want this sitting on a turntable somewhere, with an attractive model standing around handing out brochures,” he said.

          The LiveWire was designed and developed in Harley-Davidson’s Wauwatosa, Wis., product development center and hand-built in the center’s basement.

          Harley is not disclosing the range, power, acceleration or top speed of the experimental LiveWire machines.

          “We’re not getting into spec wars at this time,” Mr. Richer said. “The point is how you feel riding it.”

          As it happens, the character of an electric bike aligns well with the expectations of Harley customers, who are used to engines that cruise happily at low r.p.m.

          “An electric motor creates a lot of low-end torque,” Mr. Richer said. “We find people very pleasantly surprised by that.”

          The demonstration bikes will be charged using 240-volt Level 2 chargers, taking about 3.5 hours to fully replenish the battery pack, according to Jeff Richlen, chief engineer of product development.

          While he would not reveal the capacity of the lithium-ion battery pack, the charging time and the motorcycle’s overall weight of 460 pounds suggest a pack of 12 to 14 kilowatt-hours — a little less than a Chevrolet Volt.

          The silent operation of electric motorcycles is an attraction to many customers, but in this respect, as in so many other areas, Harley-Davidson has gone its own way. The electric motor, which can be seen as a machined-aluminum cylinder under the bike, is positioned fore-and-aft. The gears it uses to send power to a single-speed transmission are intentionally designed to make a distinctive sound. The final drive to the wheel is by a belt, typical of gasoline Harleys.

          “It sounds like a turbine when you are on the bike,” Mr. Richlen said. “And from the side, as it goes past, it sounds like a jet.”

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            I dunno about you, but I still see quite a number of these on the road. And more importantly, I still see huge numbers of SUVs like Explorers, personal vans, F250 and above type pickup trucks with no dirt on them anywhere, and so forth. This ignores all the delivery trucks, the 18 wheelers shipping to warehouse stores, etc etc.
            ...
            I'd want to see some type of segregation by vehicle weight and/or speed on major roads where speed becomes a deadly factor.
            And, the trend is ...

            Trucks, SUVs boost US auto sales

            "Sport utility vehicles are back, and last month, they helped bolster nationwide sales across the auto industry.
            ...
            July marked the 11th straight month that SUVs and trucks have outsold cars, according to Edmunds.com, the longest streak since 2005.
            "

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

              Originally posted by seobook View Post
              And, the trend is ...

              Trucks, SUVs boost US auto sales

              "Sport utility vehicles are back, and last month, they helped bolster nationwide sales across the auto industry.
              ...
              July marked the 11th straight month that SUVs and trucks have outsold cars, according to Edmunds.com, the longest streak since 2005.
              "
              When we should be conserving and hoarding every drop of oil for the next generation, wasteful gas guzzlers continue to outsell fuel-efficient little cars. All because of two things:

              regulations that allow SUVs to circumvent MPG requirements of cars,

              and people who should know better lying to Americans about the extent of our unconventional oil reserves.

              The waste will continue until the music stops, then everyone will say, "no one could have seen this coming."

              Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                Everyone that I've ever asked that doesn't actually haul anything around (obviously not a scientific poll) says they drive those big ass SUVs and trucks because it makes them feel safer, being "higher up". I call BS on this and would wager that it's an ingenious line invented in a marketing department that consumer quickly learned to parrot.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                  Originally posted by Slimprofits View Post
                  Everyone that I've ever asked that doesn't actually haul anything around (obviously not a scientific poll) says they drive those big ass SUVs and trucks because it makes them feel safer, being "higher up". I call BS on this and would wager that it's an ingenious line invented in a marketing department that consumer quickly learned to parrot.
                  I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

                  I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                    I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

                    I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.
                    Yeah...some of the bigger and more powerful US made cars are making some surprising gains on energy efficiency....which IS great to see.

                    And bodes well for a future where energy ultra efficiency eventually eclipses the current "ultra cool, but a little bit more efficient"..at least for us little people.

                    We've already made the switch to the current ultra-efficient vehicles in their respective classes. Both small turbo diesels.

                    One is a small(new small, not old small...which is still old medium sized) 4 door hatch

                    One is a small 4 door ute

                    I do worry sometimes with my wife usually driving the car(not sitting as high as the ute), but it does have an excellent safety review(for it's class)...and I've spent a good bit of time with her on formal driver training that focused on maintaining situational awareness as well as learning the capabilities/limitations of her vehicle.

                    Surely at some stage those "petrol insurance premiums"(paying more to feel safer) will become untenable with the biggest of vehicles for average folks.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                      Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
                      Surely at some stage those "petrol insurance premiums"(paying more to feel safer) will become untenable with the biggest of vehicles for average folks.
                      Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

                      This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                        Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                        Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

                        This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!
                        Maybe time to update Keynes quote:

                        "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

                        to

                        "The Jones'(average American consumers) can consume longer than you can remain prudent(or sane?)."

                        Reminds me of this old 80's reboot Twilight Zone episode:

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTKrZpY7Krc

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                          Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                          I believe those people you've spoken to are telling the truth. If you have to get into an accident, it's better to be in an M-1 Abrams tank than a Mini Cooper. Also, SUVs seems to beget more SUVs. As more SUVs are in the fleet, it becomes more difficult to see around these cars. The only solution for some people is to drive a car that is even bigger and higher up off the ground.

                          I really thought that once gasoline stayed at $3+/gallon that these things would be gone for good or would at least be carrying four or more passengers. A small consolation is that many of these things actually get halfway decent gas mileage these days.
                          About twelve years ago I was turning on a corner where it was about a 120 degree corner. A lovely SUV was (likely illegally?) parked right on the corner, so there was no way to actually make the turn and stay in the lane without smashing that SUV. Someone who was in the other lane coming the other way was a fairly aloof driver and was hugging the center line. I did my best to stop while hoping to not get rear ended, nonetheless a 1 inch paint scratch = a $600 fail for me. Ever since that day I've looked down on tinted window SUVs parked on the corner.

                          As long as the SUV doesn't tip over they are likely safer, but if you flip then all that weight which was working for you suddenly starts working against you. And momentum being what it is, they are harder to stop to avoid accidents from happening.

                          When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff."
                          I think so much of this is a failure to connect A to B. The problem is not seen as the gas consumption, but the gas price itself. It being "expensive" is a temporary condition.

                          "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people."
                          I think Don posted a link here a week or two back to a NYTimes article about subprime auto loans that echoed subprime mortgages.
                          http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/07/...ky-high-rates/
                          like subprime mortgages before the financial crisis, many subprime auto loans are bundled into complex bonds and sold as securities by banks to insurance companies, mutual funds and public pension funds — a process that creates ever-greater demand for loans.
                          not only are some of the loans for cars at inflated prices, but now all sorts of junk fees are being added into the auto loans
                          http://online.wsj.com/articles/gm-fi...nts-1407165787
                          In June, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency noted that the average amount of an auto loan was greater than the value of the car during the fourth quarter of 2013, as lenders bundled the costs of extended warranties, credit life insurance and dealer-installed accessories into contracts.
                          that last quote was from a recent article about the US DoJ investigating subprime loans from 2007.

                          plenty of advertising and marketing and salesmen promoting the value of those junk add ons, but who makes money when pitching the counter view? nobody. that's why it's only at iTulip. ;)

                          nobody could have seen it coming TM

                          "The Jones'(average American consumers) can consume longer than you can remain prudent(or sane?)."
                          perhaps add to that ... and when the music ends, you'll be footing the bill.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                            Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                            Don't hold your breath. When the SUVs first started sprouting up like mushrooms in 1998 and $0.899/gallon gasoline, I hoping the SUV thing was a fad and would go away. I'm still waiting for it to go away. As for average people being priced out, the housing bubble has made abundantly clear to me that Americans would rather die than give up their "stuff." I suspect many people would rather live out of their land barges than drive something smaller.

                            This talk of "stuff" and unnecessarily big cars reminds me of something I heard a few weeks ago: "It's amazing how much money you can make off of poor people." Even after being here on iTulip for a few years now, that comment was still a revelation to me. Evidently, it is possible to squeeze blood out of rocks!
                            Many Americans might be poor by American standards, but all Americans, even the homeless, are uber-rich compared to other standards. Wealth can be defined in absolute terms or relative terms and everyone would do well to maintain an objective perspective on the subject.

                            SUVs are here to stay because they offer so much of what Americans value. Principally, they offer freedom. Even ardent socialists, ones that despise their fellow free man, crave and exercise their freedom regularly. I'm not just talking about the optics of being higher up, which is probably pretty significant psychologically, but also the notion that the SUV offers a single source of escape, should the need or desire ever arise. An SUV owner can reasonably assume that they can take the entire family away for a week or more anywhere at any time, and that mere possibility is a truly American expression. It's the same concept behind gun ownership specifically for self-defense--it's the idea which is so appealing far above and beyond any statistical likelihood or probability. It's why electric cars limited to commuter ranges can never take any significant market share, and it's why preferences for gas-guzzlers of all stripes are fairly resilient to changes in the cost of gasoline.

                            Americans are rich beyond the dreams of their distant ancestors, and will express their wealth in typical American fashion.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                              Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                              Many Americans might be poor by American standards, but all Americans, even the homeless, are uber-rich compared to other standards. Wealth can be defined in absolute terms or relative terms and everyone would do well to maintain an objective perspective on the subject.
                              The wealth of Americans has fallen by an astonishing amount in the past decade or so when when compared to other standards. In the early 2000s, I was able to purchase one Canadian dollar for about USD $0.65, one Swiss franc for about USD $0.75, one Euro for about USD $1.00, eight Chinese yuan for USD $1.00, or one British pound for about USD $1.60. I was fortunate enough to actually travel to all of those places when they were relatively inexpensive.

                              As all of us here on iTulip know, all currencies depreciate in absolute terms and some currencies depreciate more than others. Here's how many of each of the aforementioned currencies one US dollar will buy today:

                              CAD 1.00 = USD $0.91; the Canadian dollar has nearly 50% more purchasing power against the USD
                              CHF 1.10 = USD $1.00; a Swiss franc is now almost 50% more expensive than it was
                              EUR 1.00 = USD $1.34; the Euro is 34% more expensive than it was
                              CNY 6.16 = USD $1.00; the Chinese yuan is 30% more expensive than it was
                              GBP 1.00 = USD $1.67; the British pound and US dollar have depreciated approximately the same amount

                              While the average and poor American is better off than people in the nations of Africa or other basket case countries, I really don't consider that a valid comparison. That's setting the bar low and not worthy of a great country. The truth of the matter is that an unbelievable amount of purchasing power (wealth) has been stolen from Americans: blatantly via the Wall Street bailouts and surreptitiously via high inflation through QE and ZIRP. But rather than buckling down and saving money (and maybe read some books to improve their minds to be able to recognize that an unworthy Congress should be voted out of office), Americans are going into debt, with tremendous encouragement from the Fed, to maintain an unrealistic rate of consumption.

                              I've always viewed my fellow Americans as terribly wasteful and the SUV is probably the worst example of American excess. In the past, Americans truly were wealthy enough to spend money on single-passenger minibuses that got lousy gas mileage to flaunt their wealth just as we all flaunt our well-manicured lawns. A good number of Americans are poor today because, in addition to the government and Federal Reserve stealing from them through fiscal and monetary scams, Americans spend tremendous amounts of money on things that do not improve their standards of living at all. For the vast majority of Americans who drive SUVs, they would suffer no reduction in quality of life or comfort if they chose to drive a nice sedan or coupe instead.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Another electric car fail: Nissan Leaf needs 4 charges to go 180 miles

                                Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                                While the average and poor American is better off than people in the nations of Africa or other basket case countries, I really don't consider that a valid comparison. That's setting the bar low and not worthy of a great country. The truth of the matter is that an unbelievable amount of purchasing power (wealth) has been stolen from Americans: blatantly via the Wall Street bailouts and surreptitiously via high inflation through QE and ZIRP. But rather than buckling down and saving money (and maybe read some books to improve their minds to be able to recognize that an unworthy Congress should be voted out of office), Americans are going into debt, with tremendous encouragement from the Fed, to maintain an unrealistic rate of consumption.

                                I've always viewed my fellow Americans as terribly wasteful and the SUV is probably the worst example of American excess. In the past, Americans truly were wealthy enough to spend money on single-passenger minibuses that got lousy gas mileage to flaunt their wealth just as we all flaunt our well-manicured lawns. A good number of Americans are poor today because, in addition to the government and Federal Reserve stealing from them through fiscal and monetary scams, Americans spend tremendous amounts of money on things that do not improve their standards of living at all. For the vast majority of Americans who drive SUVs, they would suffer no reduction in quality of life or comfort if they chose to drive a nice sedan or coupe instead.
                                I don't disagree at all that Americans have made significant losses in terms of purchasing power relative to other countries, nor will I necessarily disagree that wealth accumulation in America has been dampened significantly by fiscal and monetary policies of government and semi-government institutions. However, comparing American wealth to other countries at present and comparing it to previous time points are not the only ways to compare wealth or to measure wealth. In absolute terms which are as objective as is possible on such a subjective thing as wealth, American wealth continues to increase. An SUV isn't merely a wasteful show or expression of excess, it is a form of wealth accumulation. While the price may creep up and keep pace with or exceed monetary inflation, it is generally true that comparing a vehicle to even last year's model is typically an exercise in futility, leave alone comparisons to models five or ten years old. Contrary to what you seem to believe a nice car, sometimes especially a flashy one, does increase the standard of living for a great many Americans. Vehicles tie in with so many other aspects of life besides mere transportation that to discount the choices Americans make is to discount hard reality.

                                As an example, I can tell you that had I not purchased a brand new Mustang GT years ago by going into some significant debt and instead purchased a modest/nice sedan for the purpose of efficiently taking me from point A to point B, my quality of life would very likely be substantially lower. I'll let you speculate as to how, but it should be fairly obvious.

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