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Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

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  • #16
    Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

    Hey, Just back from vacation and getting caught up on things.

    I'm not sure if anyone has hit on this angle, but as it turns out I just went through this whole "Robots destroying jobs" thought argument the other day while watching Wall-E. Its social commentary about sloth and consumerism aside, it does raise this question at the logical extreme. If robots did everything so all goods and services are free, why would you need a job anyways?

    Now, of course goods can never be produced for free, however, massive automation can produce goods and services very cheaply. So again, What is wrong with cheap goods? Yes it means less manual labor jobs, but when all goods and services are very cheap, how much of a job do you need?

    The fact is, you don't. If the cost of living is reduced to $5,000 a year or less, you can work a part time job and have the rest of the time for leisure. This was premiss for the whole "work 3 days a week future" they envisioned back in the 50s and 60s.

    However all the automation and mechanization we have today has not brought us that future. Why? Because all of this is EXTREMELY deflationary. And Deflation is unacceptable in today's world of Central bank controlled economy. So our daily reality of the average person working harder and affording less despite productivity at unprecedented levels in human history is because, the FED is forcing inflation down our throats in a naturally deflationary point of human social and technological history.

    The end result is while we and our robots work harder, Inflation devalues the increase in productivity so we have to work more to afford less.

    If we had a 0% inflation policy with true economic statistics (ie a defacto gold standard without having to deal with gold) then you would see that robots and productivity improvements area a good thing.

    But that also means governments have to accept their insolvency and TPTB will have to accept less power; and that will never happen. And so robots will become our imprisoning masters and not our liberating servants.

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    • #17
      Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

      As a society, we've been having this "machines will replace us!!!" argument for centuries. We're all still chugging along just fine.


      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

        Again? So what happens when robots become so cheap even poor people can own them?

        Products of human labor is not the problem. Anytime anyone tries to convince otherwise please repeat "products of human labor are not the problem". Therefore cheap and abundant products of human labor are not the problem. The problem is scarcity and monopoly.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

          Originally posted by gwynedd1 View Post
          Again? So what happens when robots become so cheap even poor people can own them?

          Products of human labor is not the problem. Anytime anyone tries to convince otherwise please repeat "products of human labor are not the problem". Therefore cheap and abundant products of human labor are not the problem. The problem is scarcity and monopoly.
          really? this debate goes on here at the tulip? sheesh.

          let me get this straight. when new tech replaces a boring, shit job the poor sot who used to do that job gets a pink slip & is then off to the poorhouse for gruel & water but no new & more inneresting jobs get created by the very same new technology?

          riiiiiight.

          these gals...



          ...lost their jobs to these machines...



          but these guys...



          & these guys...



          plus software writers & tech writers etc get jobs that didn't exist before.

          these guys...



          ...lost their jobs to these robots...



          what is this 'class' of worker doing today?

          flipping burgers is the flip answer

          bs. only if they do not bother to get training & new skills for the new jobs.

          but, but don't they have to go into crazy debt for that? aren't they too busy living paycheck to paycheck?

          nope. technology has an answer for that, too...

          cheap online learning... at your own pace.

          who's the evil dog who put these gals out of work?



          lost their jobs to...



          who to blame? Bill Gates, Shiva Ayyadurai & Al Gore? no!

          why that's you & me. we all do our own typing... on a computer keyboard... & send it via email over the internet.

          oh, no! i've stolen a boring job from a woman in a black-and-white photo! only women, mind you. no man did that job in those days. do now, tho.

          no more this...



          now it's...



          now... about the burger robot. what if one of the 9 jobs that will destroy your soul goes away? boo hoo!

          wonder if tech is creating any NEW jobs in the mean time...

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

            +1,000 and millions of new, interesting jobs.



            Not this:


            Lud·diteˈlədˌīt/
            noun

            • a member of any of the bands of English workers who destroyed machinery, especially in cotton and woolen mills, that they believed was threatening their jobs (1811–16).
              • a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology





            • Fear Not Luddties. Help is here!


            http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/05/ra...your-injuries/


            Thousands of new jobs!
            Last edited by vt; 08-11-14, 05:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

              Originally posted by metalman View Post
              really? this debate goes on here at the tulip? sheesh.

              In care is it not clear, we are in agreement.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                Originally posted by gwynedd1 View Post
                In care is it not clear, we are in agreement.
                i'm saying i cannot believe there's anyone on the other side of this argument here.

                what next, creationism?

                google search 'burger robot 360' & guess the site that list #3 peddling a fast food kitchen robot as the end of min wage jobs?

                did ya guess zerocred?

                Meet "Smart Restaurant": The Minimum-Wage-Crushing, Burger-Flipping Robot

                http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...flipping-robot

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                  Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                  Anyone who can't see that the need for the labor of people has been greatly reduced by mechanization is just in denial. Why lament it? Its a good thing( for those with skills still needed). So what if one smart programmer can develop software that reduces the work load of millions? Or a CAT D11 can do the work of 10,000 Egyptian slaves? Human existence for thousands of years was basically about food, sex, shelter. Anything else was a luxury. Humans haven't changed, only their expectations. Historically nations and religions were always trying to increase their numbers, for military and economic reasons. Why? Because strength was measured in the number of people, not so much the quality/education of them. That has now been totally reversed. Of course those that advocate infinite growth Ponzi economics will tell you otherwise. Today it's the countries with rapid population growth that have the biggest problems, not the stable ones. You can't have infinite growth on a finite planet and expect otherwise.
                  Without getting too much into Malthusian nonsense, I will say that the demand for certain types of labor has certainly changed due to the human discovery of mechanization, but that doesn't render any person superfluous in the slightest. There is always work to be done, and people willing to trade for that work to be done. It's as simple as that. The reason why people can survive and in some cases "thrive" (by their own standards anyways) while doing no productive work is because that option was offered to everyone and some people took that deal as offered. A stereotypical welfare queen is not superfluous to the labor force, but merely a human niche-filler who made a decision to survive in a circumstance offered to her.

                  The welfare state is not at all what keeps us from the middle ages. That is utterly ridiculous. The welfare state is a political tool designed to corral political power from people and concentrate it, and so long as one person has one vote (legally speaking), the welfare state will continue to be an effective tool to harness political power. If the rules of political power were to change (i.e. less democratic, which could be very good or very, very bad, depending on numerous factors), the welfare state could vanish overnight. Politicians do things useful to politicians. Political players do things useful to political players. It's as simple as that.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                    Originally posted by metalman View Post
                    i'm saying i cannot believe there's anyone on the other side of this argument here.

                    what next, creationism?
                    Young Earth or Intelligent Design?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                      Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                      The major protection afforded by the law is to protect people from employment.

                      With the abolishment of the minimum wage, labor laws, and the various forms of social safety nets, you will see a huge calamity immediately, followed by coping and then ultimately thriving as people adjust to the new normal. The new normal would very likely include things like personal servants and/or live-in nannies for just about everyone currently calling themselves middle class, along with other things currently considered impossible under current economic circumstances. People will do what they must to survive, and other people will "take advantage" of that situation by offering things like a place to live and other payment-in-kind types of arrangements.
                      Servants for the middle class sounds like India. So, people would "thrive" like the servants in India do? Should that be our goal?

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                      • #26
                        Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                        Rode my bike five bridges up along the river today. About 50 km. The irrigation roads through the rice and flower farms are narrow, about five feet wide with rushing water on both sides, no vehicles except for the occasional farmer on a motorcycle with a long bamboo pole or a sack of fertilizer.

                        There’s no green like new rice plantings stretching to the horizon.

                        Saw several pairs of drongos
                        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_...-tailed_drongo)

                        and two snakes.

                        No robots.

                        This whole topic would be alien to most of the world.

                        (Population Chiang Mai metro area 1-2 million.)
                        Last edited by Thailandnotes; 08-12-14, 08:21 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                          Originally posted by LazyBoy View Post
                          Servants for the middle class sounds like India. So, people would "thrive" like the servants in India do? Should that be our goal?
                          Nonsense! Clearly the preference here is for Victorian England, happy were the days.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                            Originally posted by Shakespear View Post
                            The Bright New Future

                            http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/robots-will...rclass-1460177
                            You say there will be jobs maintaining the robots? Sure 100 robots taken care by 1 maintenance robot.
                            Programing? Sure
                            Building parts and circuits? Suuurrrreeee.

                            Well we can still flip hamburgers, can't we ? Nope, it appears to be doable by robots as we speak,
                            http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22...gers-per-hour/

                            I am in full agreement here

                            Like Asimov's robot novels with a whole planet of robot plantations with 1 plantation owner and 5 thousands robots- what's the point a person ? I suppose plenty of time to contemplate your Belly button on the issue.

                            Of course there are the warehouse robots.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsMdN7HMuA

                            http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/22/tech...amazon-robots/

                            http://www.wimp.com/kivarobots/

                            Plenty of jobs are being replaced daily, locally there are no more electric meter readers as it is read remotely and if you have not paid your bill they even disconnect you by remote. In many professions you can see the writing on the wall as in do we even need 90% of the postal employees ? or can the business of mail sorting/delivery be mostly automated as in the warehouse video?

                            I believe this is the government motivation/drive for socialization of the economy as what do you do with all the employment slack or unemployed people? I know the response is that they will employed in "Tech" jobs however I think the idea is limited, most of the forum members here are probably high IQ types and see a tech or STEM job as no problem but to make a point here is that if you think of the average person and then recognize that 50% of the population is below that a tech replacement job is a stretch.

                            Additionally in my travels to third world countries with no means of wealth production as in manufacturing, mining or export of raw materials, food production etc. they are minimalist service economies as there is no wealth available to support the services. I think today we are mostly a third world type service economy here in the developed world we just don't recognize it yet I see the signs every where.

                            For example I recently had a procedure done at local Yale New Haven hospital and in my overnight stay I was walking the floor at 2 am with a bad reaction to some medication. In my little walk over a couple of hours I noted 9/10 employees on duty but only a couple seemed busy the rest were having water cooler discussions and surfing the Internet.

                            In a recent Zerohedge article it was noted that since about 1980(?) US population increased approx 50% but hospital(&college employment) staffing in the same period increased 80%. So while the private economy had significant productivity increases the slack in labor was at least partially absorbed by government subsidy.

                            This for me is reminiscent of one experience where I spent 4 hours going through customs in Egypt as I had to processed by about 20 customs agents, not that they truly needed that many but they had a job and a pension but basically it was all make work otherwise they would have no job at all. My waiter at the Hotel was an engineer and as the economy was below the threshold for wealth creation there were no engineering jobs> This is what a service economy looks like.

                            Minus government subsidy (+deficit spending) there is a natural unemployment rate to all this and I would not be surprised if it was more like a 30% third world rate.



                            As far as the ghost in the machine it probably does not matter much if you don't know the difference if there is a conscious soul there or not, 20 years ago they fooled nobody This year they fooled 30% ten years from now perhaps 50%? thirty years 90%?

                            http://www.smh.com.au/national/educa...710-zt2h3.html


                            You could be talking to one now. Perhaps I am a chatbot

                            http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014...e-tricking-you

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                              Originally posted by metalman View Post
                              i'm saying i cannot believe there's anyone on the other side of this argument here.

                              If no one is willing to take the other side of the position we should make self hating robots that do.


                              what next, creationism?
                              On a serious note I actually like creationism because they were pretty good critics of evolution's flaws. It broke the evolutionary monopoly and kept driving the debate. Speaking of robots , we should program them to think they evolved to make them more human.


                              google search 'burger robot 360' & guess the site that list #3 peddling a fast food kitchen robot as the end of min wage jobs?

                              did ya guess zerocred?

                              Meet "Smart Restaurant": The Minimum-Wage-Crushing, Burger-Flipping Robot

                              http://www.zerocred.com/news/2014-01...flipping-robot

                              All variations on broken window fallacy, rent etc...

                              In the US land was so cheap labor was scarce. Everytime someone was hired to work the land they would just go off on their own. Same thing if cheap machines made restaurants require no labor . Everyone could open a restaurant . Many people just can seem to understand that economics tries to manage the problem of scarcity. There is not problem with plenty.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Robots Will Create 'Permanently Unemployable Underclass'

                                and there goes another one

                                Hotel Robots

                                http://www.cnbc.com/id/101911755

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