Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

[flintlock]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Thank you...a thousand times over. One of the main reasons I've stopped posting here as much as i use to is solely due to what you just mentioned here. If it isn't some topic about the "insights" of Paul Craig Roberts, its about how libertarians/tea party conservatives are the sole targets of every U.S. government conspiracy you can cook up. It just gets dull to read through, to the point where I would rather be doing almost anything else versus engaging in discussions here. I support this move 110%

Agree!

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Fully agree

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Indeed.

Putin let the nationalist genie out of the bottle for domestic political purposes. Can he get it back in?

I do not think this fits in very well with the rest of the narrative. I would also add that the anti-nationalistic Bolsheviks were no harbingers of peace. Peace is or is not, regardless of what ever identity one might have be it a nation, belief or geographical, or linguistic happenstance.

And now there is this, a rather credible source which will may make "anti-nationalists", who have done nothing but Pillory "nationalist Putin" without reflection on the facts. They look like, well, Bolsheviks with a non nationalist but nonetheless very bellicose approach to problem solving.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/Wha...40720-864.html



Robert Parry...

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at

What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

But if consensus is of the highest standard here, well then, that has consequences too.

[lektrode]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

and then theres this (landed in my inbox yest, from a pilot buddy...)

Looks like the right engine and wing area took the hit. Note the camera operator is able to record the moment of impact in the first 2 seconds of this clip. Note the smoke burst left behind on impact with the #2 engine area. There is a 18 second delay (speed of sound delay) due to the distance and altitude of the explosion. Question: how did this video operator know to have his camera running just prior to the missile explosion? How many people run their camera in the sky looking for an airplane cruising at altitude so high that most are not visible to the human eye? Note that the pilots are maintaining wings level, the airplane and burning wing still intact, in what appears to be an uncontrolled descent from 33,000 feet when the video ends at 1+19sec.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DaQzMv89eeo" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

This says it's an AH-30, not the 777

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

This says it's an AH-30, not the 777

Not to be pedantic, but the video is reportedly of an AN30 which is a derivative of the AN24.

The Ukrainian AN30 was reportedly downed with a MANPADS(Russian version of US Stinger), which would explain the engine fire, as MANPADS have much smaller warheads and possess passive seeker heads homing on heat/thermal output of targets.

Aircraft engaged by MANPADs have often been able to survive engagements, especially multi-engine aircraft and military aircraft designed/engineered with redundant systems.

I've flown in AN24s a few times(twin engine short to medium distance turboprop), definitely a far less pleasant experience than all of the 777 models....and unable to fly at the same height/speed at 777 at cruising altitude/speed.

MANPADs have been used to engage commercial aircraft, such as:

DHL Airbus 300 damaged by MANPAD in Iraq 2003:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Ba...tdown_incident

2 commercial aircraft(Viscounts similar to AN24/30) shot down by MANPADs in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe in 1978/79:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_825

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_827

MANPADs are absolutely unable to engage commercial jet air traffic at cruising altitude/speed, but are vulnerable on takeoff/climb out(full fuel) and while in the landing pattern.

If that AN30 was successfully hit by an SA11 I think the damage would be far more catastrophic.

[lektrode]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

This says it's an AH-30, not the 777

uhhhh.... oh...

;)

oh well... my buddy - a semi-retired/ex747jocky - mustave been nodding off when he sent that one, as i had the distinct impression that he thot it was footage of the 777 - maybe in the view of the underbody of that one in the video, in that it looks like how they paint em (his former airline anyway), so maybe thats what he was thinkin - will have to get back with more on just WHAT he was thinkin....

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

There's a poll done on a top Malaysian social forum "Who's telling the truth?" - https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3296361

Here's the main thread - https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3293053/+40

Warning: Click on the links at your own peril!

[don]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

just a footnote?


Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, has expanded its Board of Directors by bringing on Mr. R Hunter Biden as a new director.




R. Hunter Biden will be in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the Company among international organizations. On his new appointment, he commented: “Burisma’s track record of innovations and industry leadership in the field of natural gas means that it can be a strong driver of a strong economy in Ukraine. As a new member of the Board, I believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine.”

The Chairman of the Board of Directors of Burisma Holdings, Mr. Alan Apter, noted: “The company’s strategy is aimed at the strongest concentration of professional staff and the introduction of best corporate practices, and we’re delighted that Mr. Biden is joining us to help us achieve these goals.”

R. Hunter Biden is a counsel to Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP, a national law firm based in New York, USA, which served in cases including “Bush vs. Gore”, and “U.S. vs. Microsoft”. He is one of the co-founders and a managing partner of the investment advisory company Rosemont Seneca Partners, as well as chairman of the board of Rosemont Seneca Advisors. He is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University’s Masters Program in the School of Foreign Service.

Mr. Biden has experience in public service and foreign policy. He is a director for the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, The Center for National Policy, and the Chairman’s Advisory Board for the National Democratic Institute. Having served as a Senior Vice President at MBNA bank, former U.S. President Bill Clinton appointed him an Executive Director of E-Commerce Policy Coordination under Secretary of Commerce William Daley. Mr. Biden served as Honorary Co-Chair of the 2008 Obama-Biden Inaugural Committee.

Mr. Biden is a member of the bar in the State of Connecticut, and the District of Columbia, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Court of Federal Claims. He received a Bachelor’s degree from Georgetown University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School.

R. Hunter Biden is also a well-known public figure. He is chairman of the Board of the World Food Programme U.S.A., together with the world’s largest humanitarian organization, the United Nations World Food Programme. In this capacity he offers assistance to the poor in developing countries, fighting hunger and poverty, and helping to provide food and education to 300 million malnourished children around the world.

Company Background:

Burisma Holdings is a privately owned oil and gas company with assets in Ukraine and operating in the energy market since 2002. To date, the company holds a portfolio with permits to develop fields in the Dnieper-Donets, the Carpathian and the Azov-Kuban basins. In 2013, the daily gas production grew steadily and at year-end amounted to 11.6 thousand BOE (barrels of oil equivalent – incl. gas, condensate and crude oil), or 1.8 million m3 of natural gas. The company sells these volumes in the domestic market through traders, as well as directly to final consumers.


The Donets Basin is the major oil and gas producing region of Ukraine accounting for approximately 90 per cent of Ukrainian production andaccording to EIA may have 42 tcf of shale gas resources technically recoverable from 197 tcf of risked shale gas in place.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Well, this connects all the dots. So it's all about the spoils.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f3a7b3ac-fe02-4922-b24d-2e96a1eea5c9

Ukraine: the Government plans to restructure Ukrainian gas transportation system

• CMS Cameron McKenna
• Vitaliy Radchenko, Volodymyr Kolvakh and Inna Antipova
• Ukraine
• July 3 2014

Author page »

On 4 June 2014 the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine adopted Resolution No 172 “On Immediate Steps for Reforming the System of Management of the Unified Gas System of Ukraine (UGSU)” (“Resolution”). The Resolution is adopted in line with the 3rd European package and is one of the legislative tools to facilitate Ukraine’s implementation of (i) EU Directive № 2009/73/EС concerning common rules for the internal market in natural gas and (ii) Protocol on the Accession of Ukraine to the Energy Community signed on 24 September 2010 and ratified on 15 December 2011 by Ukraine. The Resolution mainly allows reorganisation of Public Joint-Stock Company “Ukrtransgaz”, which is a fully state-run operator of both the Ukrainian gas transportation system and underground storage facilities (USFs).
In particular the Resolution allows:

• to entrust Ukrtransgaz with functions of operator of UGSU (currently it is NJSC “Naftogaz of Ukraine“ which operates the system);
• to establish two separate public joint-stock companies 100% owned by the State – (1) “Main Gas Pipelines of Ukraine” as an operator of the national gas pipelines and (2) “Underground Gas Storage Facilities of Ukraine” as an operator of the Ukrainian USFs;
• to transfer (from Ukrtransgaz to the new PJSCs) the property and fixed assets used by Ukrtransgaz for the gas storage and transportation through national pipelines.

The Resolution provides only for fundamentals and basic principles of further restructuring. The necessary secondary legislation and internal regulations of the new PJSCs are expected to be developed by the Ministry of Fuel and Energy, the State Property Fund, state companies “Naftogaz of Ukraine” and “Ukrtransgaz”. Unfortunately the Resolution does not establish any timelines for adoption of the necessary secondary legislation.
Reorganisation of UGSU operator appears to be only one of the steps towards a bigger reform in Ukrainian gas sector. The Government has recently announced its plans to completely change the ownership structure of UGSU by offering European and American investors up to 49% share in it. A respective draft law No. 4116а to allow such restructuring has been submitted by the Government to the Parliament on 18 June 2014.
The joint control over UGSU should make possible the Government’s old plans on its modernisation and make other gas transportation projects bypassing Ukraine less attractive for European investors. It is also worth mentioning that the Government is not considering any Russian investments into UGSU, which news obviously received Gazprom’s disapproval.
LAW: Resolution No 172 “On Immediate Steps for Reforming the System of Management of the Unified Gas System of Ukraine” dated 4 June 2014

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

From what I've read on the Internet, the blackbox records information such as voice recording in the cockpit, GPS position, radio conversation (with Ukrainian air traffic controller???), changes in direction, altitude and speed of the blackbox.

I also learned from airliners.net forum that planes can continue flying for up to 10 minutes after being struck.

I do not think that the BUK system has a very wide operational range. So where it was when hit might be very useful.

[don]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

with Ukrainian air traffic controller???

this would be most helpful, especially in light of:

Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower

The flight path was changed.

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk.

[Polish_Silver]

Easy shot

. . . They can't even coordinate a rescue operation let alone bring down an airliner flying 33,000 ft up in the sky.

If you have the right missile, it is all too easy to bring down an airliner. They have a large heat signature, large radar cross section, and no countermeasures.

[touchring]

Re: Easy shot

this would be most helpful, especially in light of:

Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower

The flight path was changed.

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk.

This is still speculation.

But one thing for sure, Russia and the US/Kiev are fighting over the pipeline and gas resources in East Ukraine.

[Forrest]

Re: Easy shot

Thank you, Eric. It has been hard to find anything to say of late, because nothing of late seemed to be about economics...which on a site like yours, is odd.

Granted, there is no real economic news out there, except that we are all waiting to see what will happen when the IMF and the Central banks go too far; or the plebes in Europe rise up in France or England, or the German government just says they are not feeling all that great about Merkel. And of course, something might happen in North America, but until something happens somewhere else, will we have any real economic news? You know, facts, or something verifiable?