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  • #16
    Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

    Well done, bravo!

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    • #17
      Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

      Originally posted by Dave Stratman View Post
      You're right, Jimmy, I had not seen these other articles you mention, but they seem to me to consist of the same unsubstantiated charges; e.g., "U.S. officials say that Awlaki has helped transform Yemen's Al Qaeda offshoot into the terrorist network's most active affiliate outside Pakistan and Afghanistan." As the video posted by "sandwind" points out, and as we all know by experience, our government lies--habitually, systematically, and plausibly--else how could it justify its policies, as the WMD lie was used to justify the Iraq War and the deaths of over a miliion Iraqis and thousands of Americans? The government makes a charge then kills the guy and how are we ever to know the truth?

      Look at this War on Terror stuff in a broader context. In 1991 the Soviet Union collapsed and left the US in a terrible position: the US no longer had any enemies, or none worthy of the name (you can invade Grenada just so often). How justify the gigantic Pentagon budget and the arms industry? How legitimize the now 720 US military bases around the globe? How frighten the American people into submitting to increased government police power and diminished rights? How distract them from the most massive fraud in history, the transfer of $13 trillion from taxpayers to the banksters?

      Our rulers desperately needed a plausible enemy to replace Communism as a way to frighten Americans. They chose Islam. It was large--over a billion people worldwide. US intelligence agencies and other government agencies had extensive ties with Muslim rulers in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere, and the CIA had funded its largest project in history--$3.5 billion dollars--arming and training the mujahadeen in Afghanistan against Soviet occupation; in other words, there was aready-made infrastructure of US/Islamic government and intelligence relationships to manage the conflict. And, best of all, the Muslims just happened to be living on top of our oil!

      The War on Terror is not really about Muslim clerics or Osama bin Laden or other bogeymen. It is about controlling Americans. The War on Terror is about managing the American people in a period of high unemployment, catastrophic pension, investment, and real estate losses, and a massive transfer of wealth from ordinary Americans to the rich. (There is a nice quote from an L.A.Times writer a few years ago that goes something like this: "The big secret is that the Iraq war is not about changing Iraq. It is about changing America.")

      So I take with a very large grain of salt anything I read about supposed Muslim terrorism. Political Islam has been our government's ally at least since the days of TIME's 1979 Man of the Year, the Ayatollah Khomeini. In February, 1979 Iran had a broad-based revolution against the Shah led by radical (secular) students, oil workers and other unionized workers, with significant participation by politicized Muslim clerics. The revolution threatened to sweep the Middle East. (In May, 1979 I was at a cocktail party in Washington, DC with Hodding Carter III, Jimmy Carter's State Department spokesman. I said to Carter, "I guess it's pretty lucky for the US that a right-wing cleric has taken over an anti-capitalist revolution and turned it conservative." Carter grinned and said, "You might say that.") In June 1980 Khomeini executed nearly 100,000 students and workers active in the revolution and imposed a theocracy on Iran. About the same time the CIA began arming, training, and funding mujahadeen in Afghanistan. The CIA recruited Osama bin Laden as a chief agent.

      Things are not what they seem in this War on Terror. There has been something very fishy about it each step of the way. Watch videos of the WTC and Building 7 collapsing into their own footprints on 911 and it's obvious that they were brought down with explosives. In other words, 911 was an inside job, providing "a new Pearl Harbor"--just the thing the government needed to scare the shit out of people and get them to accept just about anything the government wanted to do.

      Look at the details of the Detroit Christmas crotch bomber and you scratch your head. Why would airport officials let a man board an international flight with no passport, no luggage except a small carry-on, who had paid cash for his ticket? Why would the US grant the man a visa to enter the US after his father, a high-ranking banking official in Nigeria, had met at the American Embassy with Embassy and CIA officials to inform them that his son had taken up with Yemeni terrorists? The critch bomber has apparently had a change of heart and is cooperating with US intelligence agencies. All these things raise more questions than they answer.

      So the next time we read about some scary Muslim cleric (with a beard!), and hear about all his evil thoughts and plans, ask yourself if the government and media have lied to you before and whether they are trustworthy now. The next time you're taking off your belt and shoes in an airport security line, ask yourself if this is about making you safe or training you to obey.
      May I suggest reading Samuel P . Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations," as the plan is all there, if you can read through the double-speak.
      The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge ~D Boorstin

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      • #18
        Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

        Dave,

        You're right- it must be the beard. There must be a massive conspiracy to put words into his mouth, going so far as to run a jihadist website under his name. Even the Washington Post is in on it!

        "America is in a state of war with Allah," he said, referring to the fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. He praised the insurgency in Iraq and "martyrdom operations" in the Palestinian territories. Muslims must choose sides between President Bush and the "mujaheddin," he said. The solution for the Muslim world, he said, "is jihad."
        He's probably a great American. Like you. Who advocates a revolution to overthrow the US government on your website. Am I misinterpreting?

        -Jimmy

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

          So, exactly how is it different from this ....



          Oh, right ... no gold coins offered. Throw in the gold coins and the whole idea would get a much better reception here.

          poster from http://www.tombstone1880.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

            Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
            Like you. Who advocates a revolution to overthrow the US government on your website.
            Nice catch.

            I suspect there may be an effort by portions of the U.S. government to smoke out government opposition with comments such as I see at that website. I can't tell whether that website is honestly what it appears to be or not. If you find yourself attracted to the comments on that site, be careful. As Dave notes above, there are some double dealers about.

            P.S. -- Dave, I see you have a long record visible on the Web. My due diligence won't be easy. I do not expect to comment here on my further impressions.
            Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 04-08-10, 04:21 PM.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

              Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
              Dave,

              You're right- it must be the beard. There must be a massive conspiracy to put words into his mouth, going so far as to run a jihadist website under his name. Even the Washington Post is in on it!



              He's probably a great American. Like you. Who advocates a revolution to overthrow the US government on your website. Am I misinterpreting?

              -Jimmy

              I still support this decision, for one major reason.

              "The cleric has admitted to having e-mail communication with Maj. Nidal Hassan, the man accused of gunning down 13 people at Fort Hood in Texas last November. The on cleric has admitted to having e-mail communication with Maj. Nidal Hassan, the man accused of gunning down 13 people at Fort Hood in Texas last November. "

              http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...anhunt/?hpt=T2

              He's egging people on to commit murder. Tell him to stop, or bear the fruits of what he advocates.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                The question being overlooked is why did the administration grandstand this decision?

                But there is a more serious problem, I think. Namely, murder seems to be advancing in the U.S. toolkit as a replacement for torture. Both tools, murder and torture, produce exactly the same amount of useful intelligence. Both tools scare the hell out of people abroad and at home. Both tools serve to teach a domestic audience that certain types of people are not fully people and cannot be dealt with humanely. Both tools help to advance the further stripping away of civil liberties through fear and terror.
                David Swanson (http://www.counterpunch.org/swanson04082010.html)

                There's a domestic agenda at work here. Else why advertise the 'decision'.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                  Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
                  Dave,

                  You're right- it must be the beard. There must be a massive conspiracy to put words into his mouth, going so far as to run a jihadist website under his name. Even the Washington Post is in on it!



                  He's probably a great American. Like you. Who advocates a revolution to overthrow the US government on your website. Am I misinterpreting?

                  -Jimmy
                  Jimmy--

                  I didn't suggest that there's a "conspiracy to put words in his mouth." I simply pointed out a few salient facts about political Islam:
                  --Radical Islam has long been closely allied with the US, sometimes covertly, as in the case of Ayatollah Khomeini, and sometimes overtly, as in the case of Saudi Arabia (since 1947) and of Osama bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and, as I assume you know, the Taliban, whom we backed in 1998 to govern Afghanistan. The relationships between the US government and radical Islam are not quite what we are led to believe.
                  --The US government needs an enemy, and it has chosen radical Islam to play that role. The Muslims are a particularly useful enemy, since you never know how they will strike next. Will it be a shoe bomb? A crotch bomb? Plus they live on top of all that oil.
                  --Frightening Americans with Muslim clerics talking about jihad is all part of the game. I have no idea whether this Alwahi fellow is a sincere religious believer who has been pushed over the edge by US government crimes in Afghanistan or a US government agent hired to scare the bejesus out of people or merely a sociopath. I'm sure it's all the same to the government--and to the Washington Post, for that matter. Whatever the case, he is very useful to them.

                  Now, about the matter of revolution. It's true, I think our government is in the hands of war criminals and sociopaths who will stop at nothing--torture, aggressive war, assassination--to enrich themselves and to stay in power. We didn't elect Goldman Sachs and their Wall Street buddies to run things for us, and we can't get rid of them by voting them out. We need a revolution to create government of, by, and for the people. Incidentally, I think it is quite possible to hate the government but love the people. As a matter of fact, that seems to me the only sensible path.

                  I believe we are at a point in history where the great task is to create a democratic, revolutionary alternative to capitalism and communism. I wrote a book, We CAN Change the World: The Real Meaning of Everyday Life (New Democracy Books, 1991), which explores the necessity and possibility of creating revolutionary change. I will be happy to send a copy to anyone who would send me his or her postal address.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                    Originally posted by don View Post
                    The question being overlooked is why did the administration grandstand this decision?

                    David Swanson (http://www.counterpunch.org/swanson04082010.html)

                    There's a domestic agenda at work here. Else why advertise the 'decision'.
                    Don--

                    You're exactly right. There's a domestic agenda here, which is why the administration grandstanded the decision. The assassination order seems to be directed against this American jihadist in Yemen. In fact it's directed against ordinary Americans. The message: step out of line and we can kill you. It sounds like government by death squad in certain Latin American countries.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                      Dave,

                      I see (from your "Posts" count of 8) that you're new around these parts. Welcome. You might take note that alternative explanations for what happened on one fine September day in 2001, if their discussion persists across several posts, usually cause the thread containing those posts to be moved to iTulip's "penalty box", the Rant & Rave forum. Best to walk gently in the presence of that topic.
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                        Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                        Dave,

                        I see (from your "Posts" count of 8) that you're new around these parts. Welcome. You might take note that alternative explanations for what happened on one fine September day in 2001, if their discussion persists across several posts, usually cause the thread containing those posts to be moved to iTulip's "penalty box", the Rant & Rave forum. Best to walk gently in the presence of that topic.
                        Thanks for the welcome and the advice, Cow.

                        While I'm at it, let me just mention an article of mine, "Inventing the Enemy" on political Islam, that is relevant to the "assassination by government" discussion. Also, my website, for the curious, is at newdemocracyworld.org.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                          And this to add the Economic dimension into the discussion.

                          The Ignored Bubble

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                            Nice catch.

                            I suspect there may be an effort by portions of the U.S. government to smoke out government opposition with comments such as I see at that website. I can't tell whether that website is honestly what it appears to be or not. If you find yourself attracted to the comments on that site, be careful. As Dave notes above, there are some double dealers about.

                            P.S. -- Dave, I see you have a long record visible on the Web. My due diligence won't be easy. I do not expect to comment here on my further impressions.
                            Hi, Cow--

                            I didn't notice this note when you posted it, but let me reply to it now, please.

                            I assume that we are all watched by the government to one extent or another, and certainly it watches sites that openly espouse revolution, as does newdemocracyworld.org. But that, unfortunately, is just the way things are. I'd be surprised if iTulip doesn't receive its own share of attention. It has some pretty thoughtful posters (not to mention EJ) whose thoughts are not uniformly in favor of the powers-that-be.

                            Whether I or anyone else is to be trusted: well, that's another matter. I have made no secret of my view that we need a democratic revolution (and obviously have not sought to hide my identity on iTulip). Why would I have written two books and many articles about it if I had? But since we on these lists don't know each other personally, all we can do is judge the quality of people's ideas.

                            I would welcome it if you and everyone else on these lists would search out my writings through our site or just by googling (David G. Stratman/Dave Stratman) and let me hear what you think.

                            John Adams once wrote: "What do we mean by revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution. It was only the effect and consequence of it. The revolution was in the minds of the people, and this was effected from 1760 to 1775. In the course of 15 years this happened before a single drop of blood was shed at Lexington."

                            Our real task at this time is effect a "revolution in the minds of the people." Discussions like these are an essential element of it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: US authorises assassination of US citizen

                              Originally posted by Dave Stratman
                              Whether I or anyone else is to be trusted: well, that's another matter.
                              So far what I see looks good, not that I've looked all that far yet. Some awakening of minds is needed, that's for sure.
                              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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