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To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

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  • To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

    ITulipers,

    I wrote the following response to an article by Dr. Russel Eckel back in March of 2008. It reveals more about myself than I believe that I have done thus far on this forum. Still, after coming across it today for the first time in more than two years, I think that it bears repeating for the community. It consists of my views on generational economics at the time and was originally posted here.

    • Dan Carrigg Says:
      You’ve done a good job at naming a phenomenon that many (especially those in my age group ‘millenials’) have intrinsically noticed. The supposed ‘boom’ from ‘03 until now did not help us out. Most of us are saddled with debt from student loans, and many more I am noticing are unemployed as of late. We all knew that we were completely priced out of the housing market. In fact, this has been a subject much talked about for the last four years, if only amongst ourselves.
      Having little to no market investment, this recession (I’m willing to take the risk of calling it that) will not hurt us on that end. Housing price downturns will not matter to a generation that (at least in the more urban areas of the country) never had a chance to own. What will be of huge issue, though, is the job market. Millennials, while they have the least to loose here, will be targeted for job cuts at least as much as boomers are shuffled into retirement.
      From here, it definitely feels like we have less of a chance to live as well as our parents had. I think that this is an often unspoken, yet accepted fact. Often as I feel debt closing in on all sides, I find myself locked in argument with boomers who insist that things were just as tough when they were this age. The debt to income ratio does not bear this out.
      Point being, some worked full time and went to night school, but almost everyone I can think of (who can find full time employment) is doing this now. Student loans are crippling. Try finding a studio apartment anywhere in the Northeast where jobs are available and you will be paying no less than $700/mo. … more than most boomers' mortgages (those who did not max out home equity loans). At entry level wages, rent becomes two weeks' pay…and student loans become the third. Try paying all of your bills, food, and gas with $400/mo. and then wonder why gen y is not willing to put in the time at entry level. It immediately seems like a better option to re-enroll in school, defer loans, and try your best juggling work and school all the while hoping for better opportunities on the other side.
      There are many reasons for this. New homes were built too large and opulent. There is nothing wrong with raising a family in a humble ranch (no, we don’t even need a dishwasher). I cannot speak for the whole generation, but I am sure that many of us are used to less than stellar amenities and could continue to live without optional equipment.
      Secondly, I think that boomers created a “giant sucking sound” long before the liquidity crisis in the form of home equity loans. They took out $1.5 trillion in 2005 alone (about 15% of US GDP). Much of that went to the spoiled among this generation who got away without massive student loan debt. They may be a different case than the one I am presenting here. All the same, home equity loans focused a large amount of our national wealth in the hands of one generation (most silents I’ve talked to have even found this strange).
      Thirdly, there is another confusing force at work here. One only needs to see the expansion of gambling in the form of state programs and casinos to start to feel it. Many millenials, myself included, earned more take home pay from tips (in some cases twice as much) than we do in entry-level pay. To be sure, total compensation packages help round this out, but the reduction in spending power is easy to feel. People are tipping more. 20% at restaurants is becoming common in an age of increasing meal and drink prices. People are also gambling more. Even the expansion of 401(k)s and 403(b)s is a testament to that. By the way, it is extremely rare these days for low-paying public jobs to provide a pension for millennials. They commonly phased those out for people born after 1978 (after gen x).
      Finally an interesting shift has happened between ‘excess’ or ‘luxury’ items and basic necessities. I like to think of this as a ratio between pairs of jeans and houses. Since 1950 this has migrated from 1:300 to about 1:10,000. Now wonder why we ‘don’t take care of our crap’ and throw things away so often. Perhaps if the cost of necessities (housing, energy, food) continues to rise tailors and cobblers will come back into fashion, but as long as super-cheap labor inputs are plugged firmly into the system, I’d doubt it.
      What’s the lesson here? I do not think that all of the ’self-esteem in the classroom’ proponents of describing the millennial generation see the bigger socio-economic picture. We’ve been expected to work longer hours and go to school longer than past generations. While the work is not tough (in a physical sense) and the times are not too trying (as of 2008!), it does not take a prophet to see that once detached from the huge buying power of boomers we have negative earning power. Moreover, walking into a company that expects you to gleefully join the “excel army” (I’ve coined the term, and I’m rather fond of it) while you can plainly see that processes are outdated, slow, and that if they were to hire a computer programming consultant for six months they could eliminate two jobs, is depressing. Spending all day doing what an algorithm could do and knowing that fact is depressing…and there are many people doing just that.
      It takes a while, I think, for this generation to get used to process-oriented thinking. We tended to have systemic thinking thrust upon us, and we tend to go about our business assuming that pushing for systemic understanding and efficiency is important, not the details…that’s what spell-check is for. You pointed this out in your Obama-Clinton article (the author of the blog on which this was posted), but it should be repeated that we grew up learning about ‘ecosystems’ and ‘economic systems’ and ‘computer systems’ and systems after systems after systems. Not processes.
      Moreover, computers have a way of being able to solve most routine processes (think grammar check, spell check, etc. etc.). While an older manager may not be so aware of this, we generally know it to be true. But what we generally miss until later is that, for now, the process is still important. Learning processes is the mode of thought ingrained in most boomers and gen xers, and it is neither to be disrespected, nor trifled with. There is a certain value to “the way things are done” even if it is hard for us to see. Acknowledging that, and remembering it, I believe will serve millennials well.
    Thank you all for the thoughtful and practical debate I find here.

    -Dan

  • #2
    Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

    I don't know what generation I am in, either late boomer or early x'er, but my life is not quite as bright as my parents either. I am in IT. Job security is a big issue. I still make .com wages, but they stopped increasing in 2001. I now say thank you for keeping me, and thanks for the .5% raise each year. I know I'm going to get layed off soon. The move is for off the shelf shrink wrapped stuff. I am a detailed oriented programmer type. If i get a new job, it will be for 20 - 30% less. It may require me moving out of state, leaving family and friends and a big moving expense.

    If you step back and look at the big picture it is crazy and is going to implode. I know that college costs are rediculous. I paid 3K a year in 1989 to attend U of Ill. That was a good value. Now I hear quotes of 20K+ a year to go to the same school. How many years of J6P disposible income is 80K? And that is one kid, and no tuition and books. This is a tragedy. I would really like to get retrained but for that money??

    House prices are unafforadble. It requires both young people to work to make the payments.
    A lower end house in my neighborhood costs 250K. Prop tax will cost you another 5 - 6K.

    Look at all the shit the gvt has its hands into, cars, insurance, health care, income, food, medicine
    housing, education. It just adds layers and layers of innefficiency to this system. I can't turn on my radio any day and not hear about some new regulation.

    I would say 1/3 to 1/2 of my job is fulfilling government regulations. Security issues, tax issues, employment issues etc. Seems like a big waste. Some of it is good regulation, but often the burden of proof is most of the task, not actually doing the requirment.

    There is a good book out their called the "Fourth Turning" you can get if from amazon. I can't remember the author. They spot on predicted this crisis as a generational issue. They trace generational turning points through out history and find a disturbing pattern repeating every 4 generations. The last great turning was WWII. We are roughly 80 years from that now.
    I feel for you, because your generation is going to have to mop up this crisis. Hopefully smart, and caring people from your generation will step up and do a good job.
    Last edited by charliebrown; May 13, 2010, 07:32 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

      Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
      ITulipers,

      I wrote the following response to an article by Dr. Russel Eckel back in March of 2008. It reveals more about myself than I believe that I have done thus far on this forum. Still, after coming across it today for the first time in more than two years, I think that it bears repeating for the community. It consists of my views on generational economics at the time and was originally posted here.

      Thank you all for the thoughtful and practical debate I find here.

      -Dan
      Thanks for re-posting.

      I manage Boomers, Gen-X types, and a single Millennial. Aside from differing levels of experience, and some differing viewpoints related to family life (no kids; young kids; adult kids), I can't say that I've noticed any of the stereotypical generational differences with respect to work culture or attitude. But then I don't have a very large sample set here.

      I went through boot camp at the age of 28, when most of my buddies were 18 or 19. I think those guys qualified as the leading edge of the Millenials, having been born after 1985. Again, I can't say I noticed anything particularly different about that group of Millennials that wasn't related to the phase of life they were in, as opposed to some overarching generational theme.

      I think your observations about economic realities and the role of debt are a lot more real than the purported differences in attitude that people like to talk about.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

        Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
        If you step back and look at the big picture it is crazy and is going to implode. I know that college costs are rediculous. I paid 3K a year in 1989 to attend U of Ill. That was a good value. Now I hear quotes of 20K+ a year to go to the same school. How many years of J6P disposible income is 80K? And that is one kid, and no tuition and books. This is a tragedy. I would really like to get retrained but for that money??

        House prices are unafforadble. It requires both young people to work to make the payments.
        A lower end house in my neighborhood costs 250K. Prop tax will cost you another 5 - 6K.
        This is the really crazy thing. Even in a low-cost-of-living state, you have to earn big bucks to prudently enjoy a modest "middle class American lifestyle", unless your housing costs are grandfathered in at an affordable level from a much earlier purchase.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

          Originally posted by ASH
          This is the really crazy thing. Even in a low-cost-of-living state, you have to earn big bucks to prudently enjoy a modest "middle class American lifestyle", unless your housing costs are grandfathered in at an affordable level from a much earlier purchase.
          http://www.ww.itulip.com/forums/show...bonds&p=107782

          I posted some time back of 3 houses in Huntington Beach, CA.

          One house is 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, and was purchased in 2007 for $850,000. Property tax for this house (original ranch house of the development) is roughly $10000/year.

          The house next to it was rebuilt as a McMansion: 5 bedrooms/6 bathrooms. Purchased in 2004 for $2.1M and pays $25000/year.

          The house next to that one (i.e. ranch and this house on both sides of the McMansion) is a 6 bedroom/6 bathroom affair but is not a new built McMansion. It is also an original ranch house which has been expanded to touch all 4 sides of the land via extensions.

          This property pays less than $3000/year property taxes. Because it was last bought in 1974 for $26,000.
          Update - I've coined the term: 'suburban-ghetto' or 'sub-ghet' for properties like the last one below.

          Think Chicago high rise tenement morphed into suburbia.
          Last edited by c1ue; May 13, 2010, 08:36 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

            Originally posted by ASH View Post
            This is the really crazy thing. Even in a low-cost-of-living state, you have to earn big bucks to prudently enjoy a modest "middle class American lifestyle", unless your housing costs are grandfathered in at an affordable level from a much earlier purchase.
            Then we have places like New York City where you can't find a house for less than $500K even in the worst neighborhoods.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

              I am 47 and have three "boomer" brothers ages 53-60 now. I work with PHD types in their late 20s and have two teenage sons. I see into these worlds via these people and their friends and have some thoughts. Just observations.

              I can't see a difference in quality of people but I do see a difference in expectations and ground rules.

              Boomers tend to have a lot of faith in humanity and that if we redirected our resources to what we need to do all will be okay. We can stop global warming. They are, however, ultimately selfish and want a very high standard of living no matter what the cost to everyone else. They still want their SUV. Because of the pill they were taught sex equals liberation. Because of Vietnam they were taught war was about control.

              Those born after replace selfishness with rudeness and they have been happy to go into debt like no one before them. They like stuff and gadgets. They are very independent except for the debt thing. If they purchase correctly they will solve global warming. They are cynical about everybody else but optimistic about themselves and their friends. Very clickish. They will totally ignore who they are with to text chat with someone else. Because of AIDS they were taught sex equals death. Because of Desert Storm they were taught war was bloodless and easy and could be carried out remotely and painlessly. IF a ruthless horrific leader rises the next 40 years it will be out of this generation.

              Those born the last 20 years are completely disengaged and cynical about everything from war to sex. Global warming will give us something to do. They are the home video game generation totally. They don't seem to have any sexual hangups but since condoms are now a part of everything sex is a very disengaged exercise like everything else in their lives. They see war as "The War on Terror" and really think it is about economics more than anything else. It is the engine that drives our lives. Bush's utterance about "go shopping" in response to 911 resonates with these folks and they have and will. But buying to them is about consuming or experiencing not about having. Debt to them is just a credit card which is like money. A means to an ends with no end. Everything is about entertainment and importance is indicated by drama. Most of their families are openly dysfunctional. They are good to each other and are very clued into the world when they decide to pay attention. They sense something is coming and it will change their lives. Things are out of their control. They don't know whether the change is going to be like one of the parents leaving them or another 911. To them it, deep down, just does not matter. They are pretty sure the world is on its way to hell but that's okay because they have been trained to live in a post apocalypse world via Halo and Call to Duty since day one. Even the Un-dead are no match for them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                What's the worst thing that can happen? The worst thing that can happen to you is going to happen just like it did to all who came before you. Simplify your life and live with the consequences. Bloom where you're planted. Enjoy your life. Do unto others...virtue is its own reward...etc.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                  Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                  , and thanks for the .5% raise each year.
                  You get a raise each year? Ahhhh luxury!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                    Originally posted by sunskyfan View Post
                    IF a ruthless horrific leader rises the next 40 years it will be out of this generation.
                    I hope it's ASH. ;-)

                    Seriously, though. Excellent posts in this thread.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                      Originally posted by bpr View Post
                      I hope it's ASH. ;-)

                      Seriously, though. Excellent posts in this thread.
                      Why, thank you, bpr! I used to joke with my friends from school about how circumspection was all well and good, but that one needs to have absolute moral certainty to have the courage to do "great and terrible things". ;-)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                        Originally posted by bpr View Post
                        I hope it's ASH. ;-)

                        Seriously, though. Excellent posts in this thread.
                        Awesome, I agree with you completely. I'd be honored to be one of Ash's horrific henchmen.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                          Originally posted by sunskyfan View Post
                          I am 47 and have three "boomer" brothers ages 53-60 now. I work with PHD types in their late 20s and have two teenage sons. I see into these worlds via these people and their friends and have some thoughts. Just observations.

                          I can't see a difference in quality of people but I do see a difference in expectations and ground rules.

                          Boomers tend to have a lot of faith in humanity and that if we redirected our resources to what we need to do all will be okay. We can stop global warming. They are, however, ultimately selfish and want a very high standard of living no matter what the cost to everyone else. They still want their SUV. Because of the pill they were taught sex equals liberation. Because of Vietnam they were taught war was about control.

                          Those born after replace selfishness with rudeness and they have been happy to go into debt like no one before them. They like stuff and gadgets. They are very independent except for the debt thing. If they purchase correctly they will solve global warming. They are cynical about everybody else but optimistic about themselves and their friends. Very clickish. They will totally ignore who they are with to text chat with someone else. Because of AIDS they were taught sex equals death. Because of Desert Storm they were taught war was bloodless and easy and could be carried out remotely and painlessly. IF a ruthless horrific leader rises the next 40 years it will be out of this generation.

                          Those born the last 20 years are completely disengaged and cynical about everything from war to sex. Global warming will give us something to do. They are the home video game generation totally. They don't seem to have any sexual hangups but since condoms are now a part of everything sex is a very disengaged exercise like everything else in their lives. They see war as "The War on Terror" and really think it is about economics more than anything else. It is the engine that drives our lives. Bush's utterance about "go shopping" in response to 911 resonates with these folks and they have and will. But buying to them is about consuming or experiencing not about having. Debt to them is just a credit card which is like money. A means to an ends with no end. Everything is about entertainment and importance is indicated by drama. Most of their families are openly dysfunctional. They are good to each other and are very clued into the world when they decide to pay attention. They sense something is coming and it will change their lives. Things are out of their control. They don't know whether the change is going to be like one of the parents leaving them or another 911. To them it, deep down, just does not matter. They are pretty sure the world is on its way to hell but that's okay because they have been trained to live in a post apocalypse world via Halo and Call to Duty since day one. Even the Un-dead are no match for them.
                          Fantastic post sunskyfan !
                          I'm 23 but I think I fit in the last category.
                          Go zombies !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                            They will totally ignore who they are with to text chat with someone else.
                            That just bugs the crap out of me. Try being in a room with 3 people who have I phones. It's like you don't exist.

                            They are, however, ultimately selfish and want a very high standard of living no matter what the cost to everyone else
                            Maybe that's because we have worked hard,played by the rules. Payed off our houses,stayed out of debt and saved money for retirement. Now we see that the money we've saved won't be worth crap. If your a late boomer you won't see any social security either. Maybe we see that it was all a lie from the beginning. Maybe we should have bought a house we couldn't afford,ran up 50K in student loans and got a worthless degree in exchange. Then just don't save for the future so you can have everything your parents worked their whole lives for NOW. Cause in the end we'll all be in the same boat.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: To the ITulip Community - A Worldview from Some of Another Generation

                              Originally posted by ASH View Post
                              This is the really crazy thing. Even in a low-cost-of-living state, you have to earn big bucks to prudently enjoy a modest "middle class American lifestyle", unless your housing costs are grandfathered in at an affordable level from a much earlier purchase.
                              It's not that bad. Here's a house listing of sub-$100,000 houses from Derby, KS:

                              http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...rice-na-100000

                              Derby is a suburb near Wichita KS. It has low crime and good schools. You can still afford to live there if you are working class though.

                              I mention Derby because I know it and have ever thought about moving there. I don't think it is a national aberration--if you get away from the coasts and look at the suburbs around smaller cities.

                              Comment

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