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While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

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  • #61
    Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

    Originally posted by jk View Post
    i still want to know whether hobby-lobby-decision supporters think christian scientists should be able to refuse to offer health insurance altogether? and if not, why not? and should jehovahs witnesses be able to exclude coverage for transfusions? and if not, why not? those are sincerely held religious beliefs.
    I would note that Quakers have rather strong beliefs about war. I wonder if they can now avoid paying the large fraction of taxes that are needed to fund our wars (or whatever we call them now). They have no corporate backing though...

    Originally posted by shiny! View Post
    3. Separate insurance from employment. If employers want to offer insurance as an incentive, they can offer what they like and employees can purchase supplemental plans for whatever they want that isn't covered. And if people don't agree with a company's philosophy they can hopefully find a job elsewhere and shop elsewhere as well.
    Yes! Yet another reason to separate insurance from employment. '

    Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why the non-insurance corporate-people aren't pushing for this. Why don't the other corporate-persons gang up on Insurance?

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

      Originally posted by LazyBoy View Post
      I would note that Quakers have rather strong beliefs about war. I wonder if they can now avoid paying the large fraction of taxes that are needed to fund our wars (or whatever we call them now). They have no corporate backing though...



      Yes! Yet another reason to separate insurance from employment. '

      Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why the non-insurance corporate-people aren't pushing for this. Why don't the other corporate-persons gang up on Insurance?
      there was a moment, i forget when, when the automobile companies were pointing out that their overseas competitors had an advantage by virtue of not having to provide health insurance. somehow their complaint didn't get any traction.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

        Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
        Again, what possible harm can come from allowing people to do what they choose to do, provided that choice is not to harm another? Failing to answer makes me question your sincerity.
        "provided that choice is not to harm another." do you mean "provided that choice DOES NOT harm another"? if so, i'll agree, because you then have to account for all externalities. in our employment based medical-care funding system, fraying requirement of coverage serves to harm A LOT of others.

        so let us first construct a system which accounts for externalities- e.g. the effects of pollutants released, carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases produced, accurate accounting for wear and tear on public good such as highways, and so on, and THEN we can afford agreements freely reached.

        if otoh you restrict your limit to forbidding an agreement explicitly to harm another, you leave out all the externalities, and i'm not on board. in that context you need regulations.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

          Originally posted by jk View Post
          there was a moment, i forget when, when the automobile companies were pointing out that their overseas competitors had an advantage by virtue of not having to provide health insurance. somehow their complaint didn't get any traction.
          OTOH - would say it DID 'gain traction' - cept it was in reverse, seeing as 2/3 of detroit's Big3 went down the tube - ford likely would've as well, had they not bet the company by going all-in (to the deep end of the debt pool, just before the entire economy - or whats left the productive economy, anyway - tanked...) ?

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          • #65
            Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

            Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
            Reminds me of a prayer a teacher of mine once wrote:



            Amen.
            Good luck seeking deliverance from yourself. If you have nothing to contribute, no comment is necessary.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

              Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
              Warren already has the base of the left and she would do well if she stuck to economic policies, attacked FIRE and corporatocracy, and thereby appealled to a wider swath of middle and lower classes, and leave the gender identify, gay marriage, global warming stuff alone - still can't fault her for being honest about her priorities, which unfortunately have occupied the leftist agenda for the past 40 years while the middle and working classes were sold out by both parties. Still, watching her debate ms Clinton would be quite entertaining as well as revealing

              http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...mandments.html

              "We believe in science, and that means that we have a responsibility to protect
              this Earth." Global warming

              "We believe that the Internet shouldn't be rigged to benefit big corporations,
              and that means real net neutrality." REgulation of the Internet


              "We believe that equal means equal, and that's true in marriage, it's true in
              the workplace, it's true in all of America." Gay marriage

              "And we believe that corporations are not people, that women have a right to
              their bodies. We will overturnHobby
              Lobby
              and we will fight for it. We will fight for it!" no conscience rights
              +1.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                Warren already has the base of the left and she would do well if she stuck to economic policies, attacked FIRE and corporatocracy, and thereby appealled to a wider swath of middle and lower classes, and leave the gender identify, gay marriage, global warming stuff alone - still can't fault her for being honest about her priorities, which unfortunately have occupied the leftist agenda for the past 40 years while the middle and working classes were sold out by both parties. Still, watching her debate ms Clinton would be quite entertaining as well as revealing

                http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...mandments.html

                "We believe in science, and that means that we have a responsibility to protect
                this Earth." Global warming

                "We believe that the Internet shouldn't be rigged to benefit big corporations,
                and that means real net neutrality." REgulation of the Internet


                "We believe that equal means equal, and that's true in marriage, it's true in
                the workplace, it's true in all of America." Gay marriage

                "And we believe that corporations are not people, that women have a right to
                their bodies. We will overturn Hobby Lobby and we will fight for it.
                We will fight for it!" no conscience rights
                +1.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                  Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                  jk, you aren't utilizing language appropriately and that is probably why you are confused. The Hobby Lobby decision has restricted and denied absolutely nobody any health care coverage. No restrictions have been placed on what people can receive from insurance, and no control over one's health care coverage has been given to an employer as a result of this decision.

                  Why can't people see this decision for what it is? It is purely and entirely an exemption in a legal mandate for religious reasons. That's it. It's nothing more. It doesn't prevent anyone from getting any coverage they want. It doesn't restrict people employed by certain religious employers from receiving health care coverage. All this decision does is take the gun away from the head of employers on one of the thousands of legal mandates placed upon them. That's it. ...

                  ... The people interested in controlling others and their health care decisions are those who rail against the Hobby Lobby decision. There is no logical reason to oppose the ruling if one accepts that people should be afforded the right to believe whatever they wish to believe and act accordingly.
                  +1.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                    Originally posted by shiny! View Post
                    Agree? Disagree? What do iTulipers think of Elizabeth Warren?
                    If i were american, I'd definitely vote for her over Hilary. Personally, I'm not a fan of people like rand paul, so she would be a great alternative in my eyes


                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                      Originally posted by verdo View Post
                      If i were american, I'd definitely vote for her over Hilary. Personally, I'm not a fan of people like rand paul, so she would be a great alternative in my eyes
                      May I ask what you mean by "people like Rand Paul" and why you aren't a fan of them?

                      I'm personally not a fan of any politician, and I think Elizabeth Warren is a master politician in that her sincerity is so strongly apparent despite its total absence. Rand Paul is similar, although unlike Warren there is scant evidence supporting the presupposed notion that his sincerity is actually absent. Regardless, at least Rand Paul's political image is crafted in such a manner that he will yield political power from the federal level, rather than accumulate it. This is hugely significant and a strong reversal of current policy. I do not wish for more government capture by large corporations nor do I want a government run fully amok in my life and decisions which belong in my personal domain, and therefore I am somewhat frightened at what a Warren administration might do with the reins of power.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                        Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                        May I ask what you mean by "people like Rand Paul" and why you aren't a fan of them?
                        EJ explains my reasoning best

                        Originally posted by EJ View Post
                        Applying an Austrian cure to a FIRE Economy crisis is like bleeding a patient with a heart condition. The treatment may satisfy the doctor's penchant for tough love cures, but it's a 19th century treatment for a distinctly 21st century problem of elected officials and their central banks abetting asset price inflation via modern finance to generate GDP growth and all the political benefits that this artificial number bestows upon them.

                        Austrians like Rand are archaic in the way they view the economy and they are ideological to a fault. They try to apply outdated solutions to the current problem of global debt deflation, and half of them sound like vulture capitalists who want to purposefully induce a crash in world markets so they can be the first in to buy up everything for pennies on the dollar. I'd like to buy things cheap too, but not via a crash that I was a catalyst of. They have a very narrow minded view of fiscal matters, and the problems of the 21st century require political leaders who are far more forward thinking and dynamic in their views. I believe Rand lacks some foresight concerning large-scale fiscal matters, because he doesn't think about the consequences of inducing a hail mary crash of the economy to satisfy his insatiable need to balance the budget immediately, Austrian style. He's a 19th century ideologue which encourages him to be an austerity ghoul, and a debt-ceiling fanatic. They cling to things which may have been true in the past, and they hold onto it for their dear lives throughout the centuries, just as some amongst them have the tendency to ride gold bull markets all the way up, and all the way down. They just can't let go because Austrianism tells them that gold is the panacea to all problems financial, which is why some of them still believe that gold is the kind of asset that will protect you against the type of crash we saw in 2008. It wont. Only US dollars would, and lots of them. And you can say these things while still being bullish on gold. I bring this up as just an example of how Austrians like Rand can be ideological to a fault. Some who attach themselves to this school aren't like this, but Rand is not one of them. Not as bad as Ron, but not by much. The usefulness of people like the Pauls is that they open up a new side of the debate which is often not talked about, and that should be talked about.


                        The 21st century is a complex period however, and the last thing I want to see are leaders at the helm who are rigidly draconian on matters like this. Diehard Austrianism is the reason why i stopped calling myself a Libertarian, became an independent, and could never stand with Rand. The problem I find in this gold/liberty-minded/pro small government community is that many people can't fathom that you can be generally anti-Rand fiscal solutions and anti-big government FIRE solutions at the same time. The reason for this is because the Pauls are viewed almost like demigods within the community, and if you are against their solutions, it must mean that you support wall street and the debt bomb. If EJ were running for president, Rand would likely denigrate him for being too liberal, which in some ways you need to be if you want to see TECI come to fruition, because it requires large, but focused amounts of public-private spending on TECI infrastructure projects along with increased taxes on FIRE industries and oil imports. I'd like to see a guy who believes that government can only get in the way of the private sector and a guy who is so adverse to raising taxes, also being the same guy who brings the TECI economy that I assume itulipers want to see.

                        In short, I'm saying that I believe Rand, although being a fairly smart individual, lacks the mental nuance required to actually solve some of the big problems we have today. His draconian fiscal views aren't canceled out by his positive progressive views on liberty and the military industrial complex
                        Last edited by verdo; 08-10-14, 10:28 PM.


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                        • #72
                          Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                          Thank you for explaining. I will definitely agree that there's a scary bit of pedestaling of the Pauls, but I must disagree with your assessment of big picture economics generally. Indeed the economic situation of now is hugely complex, but that is precisely why efforts to try to wrestle control over the various parts of the economy are doomed to fail in their intended outcomes, leave alone the unintended consequences. Rand may be many things, but it appears that he understands that he (like every person on the planet) is incapable of making the perfect policy decisions regarding the American or global economy, which seems to be why he tends to favor yielding control of economic decisions to smaller entities, like the states or individuals. As the old example goes, you certainly cannot name any previous, current or potential future president who is wise enough to control every economic decision you make throughout your life, as complex as it is, and therefore when you add the interactions of hundreds of millions of people you cannot expect that they will suddenly discover a simple solution to such an infinitely complex situation.

                          One last thing to note. You call him an austerity ghoul among other things, but I will point to the austerity we are actually facing right now in light of the dollars dollars dollars "solution" used as a response to so-called financial crisis. FIRE has come back pretty strong, and all it cost us was a doubling of gas and food prices, among other unacknowledged forms of price inflation. We are living through austerity with this record-breaking seemingly permanent recession, and this was brought about by people who devote their entire lives to providing "foresight concerning large-scale fiscal matters." Who on Earth is worthy of trust in that regard? I would contended that nobody is, and we should act accordingly.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                            While some of the contentions in the following article are abdications or straw men, the direct refutations in this Mises post of what Elizabeth Warren stands for/believes in are pretty spot on.

                            http://mises.org/daily/6841/The-Into...-Progressivism

                            Essentially, Warren believes in political power and little else. She's just another flavor of potential tyrant. Some people benefit quite well under tyrannical regimes, but it is awful to be among the politically unconnected or worse, the political opposition during such times.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                              "I'm not trusting anyone who is from either political party. The party their having is at the people's expense." VT

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: While Clinton Offers a Resume, Warren Offers a Plan

                                Originally posted by Ghent12 View Post
                                While some of the contentions in the following article are abdications or straw men, the direct refutations in this Mises post of what Elizabeth Warren stands for/believes in are pretty spot on.

                                http://mises.org/daily/6841/The-Into...-Progressivism

                                Essentially, Warren believes in political power and little else. She's just another flavor of potential tyrant. Some people benefit quite well under tyrannical regimes, but it is awful to be among the politically unconnected or worse, the political opposition during such times.
                                while i was favorably impressed with ms warren earlier, ie: BEFORE she decided to become a 'political activist' (and disappointed but not surprised that she re-took teddy's old senate seat from scott brown, who - quite interestingly - has now 'fled north of the border' into the LIVE FREE OR DIE state) - after review of her works (papers and video etc) regarding the history of the ongoing wipeout of the US middle class and its explainations and implications - must say that coupled with Mr J's recent obs (a couple yrs ago now) of her flavor of politix - that the mises piece is QUITE EYE OPENING - (and why eye'm a big fan of the op/ed section of print media)

                                and while i still think the POV of her prev work needs MORE discussion not less, would REALLY like to hear from those who lean in her direction - over there, or rather OUT THERE in left-field - which seems to be the primary product of harvard and its sisters in the ivory tower..

                                whats woody have to say about this (mises on warren), i wonder? (and i DO respect his views, tho not necessarily in agreement on all of them)

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