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Immigration: Enforce the Law the way we used to - Ann Anger

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  • #16
    Immigration and the Western US...

    The immigration issue has been coming to a head in the last few years...
    The Western States - California, Arizona, New Mexico - are being swamped financially by undocumented citizens. During the late nineties the State coffers were over flowing with money - and the fiscal short falls were less of an issue. Combine this with further worsening conditions in Mexico and other central/southern America countries.
    Did you know that the State of California had a Bond offering to cover State operating Expenses. Bond offing to cover Operating expenses is a Perfect example of too much Credit in this world that Itulip tries to high light. California has seen a dramatic increases in education and Medical expenses that can be trace right back to undocumented Immigrants.

    Yes - the Politicians use Illegal Immigrants in the good times and the bad...have you noticed how Senator Clinton - went from being pro Illegal Immigrants to backing the building a fence - in the course of two weeks.... I think the Politicians all want the option to be against Illegal Immigrants if the economy sours... just my cynical view.

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    • #17
      Mexicans.

      Originally posted by jk
      round the world, xenophobia gets stirred up by right wing politicians whenever there is economic stress. malays get stirred up against ethnic chinese, chinese against japanese, hindus against moslems [and vice versa], serbs against bosnians, germans against turks, brits against pakistanis and jamaicans, the french against "polish plumbers." the whole jihad movement is more of the same - failed polities producing reactionary revolutionaries with their own brand of ethnic cleansing.

      i forget how immigration got pumped up lately. [every once in a while immigration becomes an issue.] if times get worse i expect we'll be hearing more about immigration for some time to come.
      I think you missed Muslims against the Thais, Russians against chechens, and arabs and turks against the kurds, and of course Palestinians and Arabs against the Jews.

      I lived next door to a Mexican family, the mother and father of which actually waded across the Rio Grande and are citizens by virtue of amnesty.
      They've one son who didn't complete high school and now has fathered two daughters to unwed mothers but he has a job and has his 5 year old over to his parent's house all the time, and she is a nice bright child (the other daugher is a newborn), a younger son who is a real piece of crap (but that may be true of a lot of 14 year olds of any ethnicity) and three daughters, one of who is attending junior college, and the other two who are as bright as stars.

      Two years ago, on the other side of my house, was another Mexican family, both college graduates, he second generation and the wife fresh from Mexico where she graduated from college, and both were as productive as most Americans who don't have any idea how long ago their ancestors landed. He was an engineer for American Airlines, and she got a job teaching in the city schools.

      My Mexican family next door are the best people I have ever had as neighbors--they absolutely are. (You could figure I have heretofore lived in ghettos, but I haven't.) Their house is an eyesore, but I expect many times better than what either parent had in which to grow up. Neither parent is educated, and I think that has been the downside for the boys, but the girls are going to come out okay I will bet. I would not trade this family as neighbors for the two Americans honkies who live on their other side. The parents take good care of their children, and I have no doubt wish the best for them and strive to do that to the extent they are capable. It is unfortunate that the parents likely lack parenting skills, but they are not alone.

      I think the current unhappiness with the illegal Mexicans is the expense of the drain on societal services which I expect in being borne mostly by regular taxpayers. One does not really hear much bitching from the industries that are employing those who may be here illegally. I do not perceive a lot of xenophobic behavior by blacks or whites here in Fort Worth towards Mexicans, but I do lead a rather sheltered life.

      I doubt that Islamic terrorists are through attacking us in America, and I think it is a fact, that if such terrorists can get into any country south of our border with Mexico, then right now still they can ultimately just walk into the US if that is what they want to do.

      There are a lot of reasons our borders would be better secured, but I do not perceive that attempts at securing the southern border has anything to do with most people having any real hate of Mexicans. There are probably a dozen things I seriously hate in or about America and none is Mexicans or for the matter any other ethnic group.
      Jim 69 y/o

      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

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      • #18
        Can anyone provide something that supports the Western states "being swamped financially by undocumented citizens"? I'm not pro "illegal immigration", but before any problem can be solved it must be understood.

        To be clear, I'd like to see an analysis that balances costs and revenues. Illegals spend their new found incomes like mad... yet I know of no studies that break out sales tax based on immigration status. I do know that it's nonsense that illegals pay no taxes, and get services for free. Besides sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc., some even pay income taxes... "A significant number of the 8.6 million holders of individual taxpayer IDs are illegal immigrants, according to the Government Accounting Office." I'd love to see decent data on this subject so that I could have a well reasoned opinion.

        In the mean time, I think ending illegal employment is an easier, though less politically attractive, solution to the no pay problem... also targets the thousands of citizens that work for cash and use services for "free"... or maybe that should be "free-er" than the rest of us. :-)
        Last edited by SeanO; 06-30-06, 09:57 PM.

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        • #19
          immigration is a bogus issue

          there are certainly real issues surrounding illegal immigration to this country, but i think in general immigration is a red herring issue. income disparities are enormous, social mobility is down, pensions are unreliable, healthcare is going through the roof, and people are worked up about illegal immigrants and gay marriage! duh!

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          • #20
            Duh!

            Originally posted by jk
            there are certainly real issues surrounding illegal immigration to this country, but i think in general immigration is a red herring issue. income disparities are enormous, social mobility is down, pensions are unreliable, healthcare is going through the roof, and people are worked up about illegal immigrants and gay marriage! duh!
            Can't stop laughing. I contend there are too many ignorant Americans, and as such it is easy to amuse them and rally their support toward the next election with hot button topics. You rushed and forgot flag burning, doggone it, just missed passing senate by a lousy vote. Much better time be spent on this stuff than anything complicated like budget deficits. Budget deficits aren't trendy political issues amongst the proletariat, because most do not comprehend numbers of more than five digits, and 12 zeros after a number is similar to your body being here and your head in Uranus--I believe that is a planet.
            Jim 69 y/o

            "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

            Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

            Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

            Comment


            • #21
              Undocumented Immigrants - $10 Billion per year- Washtimes

              Sean,

              Here is an article from the Washington Times - estimated cost is $10 Billion per year to California.
              http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2115-6766r.htm

              I can't get my brain around Itulips Participants who don't see over spending for McMansions and overspending by states to support Undocumented Workers - comes from the same mind set about money. Obviously, one goal has good intentions. Pulling large numbers of people into the US Social Security Ponzi scheme will only make things worst.
              Not even lots of well educated British people immigrating to the US will not make Social Security or the Medicare crisis go away - just make the problem bigger.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BK
                Sean,

                Here is an article from the Washington Times - estimated cost is $10 Billion per year to California.
                http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2115-6766r.htm

                I can't get my brain around Itulips Participants who don't see over spending for McMansions and overspending by states to support Undocumented Workers - comes from the same mind set about money. Obviously, one goal has good intentions. Pulling large numbers of people into the US Social Security Ponzi scheme will only make things worst.
                Not even lots of well educated British people immigrating to the US will not make Social Security or the Medicare crisis go away - just make the problem bigger.
                BK,

                Can you name any serious problem on the planet that is not getting worse? I cannot, but I lack imagination.

                Someone today, probably jk, asked can anyone imagine what the US$ will be worth 35 years from now? My first thought was that will be right before the 100th anniversary of my birth, so I should not worry too much about it, and I don't have kids, so why me worry?

                Good or bad, the immigration problem is seemingly subject to remedy--whether or not it is cost effective to remedy it, I don't know. I think jk also pointed out the absolute ludicrousness of our elected officials' focus on the "important" issues of gay-marriage, flag-burning, etc. On my list of problems facing this country, those do not even make the list, and yet well-paid, highly-benefitted elected officials are discussing such crap.

                I see none of the serious problems that exist right now as being subject to remedial action by politicians. The only way things are going to ever get better are for things to get a whole lot worse first, either by ecomonic collapse, starvation, wide spread riot, war, or pandemic or some combination of these events that will unfortunately kill a lot of people and make those who don't die consider the seeming misfortune of survival--suvival as Americans have come to expect as the norm. Other than something disastrous "wiping the slate clean" and allowing civilization to start from a new low point in this country, I see no answers.

                To my reckoning most of the people on this planet are poorer than dirt poor. I heard last night on radio while going to sleep about the Democratic Republic of the Congo, bigger than western Europe, having an election that may be completed in 25 days at best. There are no roads generally in the country, 59 million people according to Wikipedia, and the radio said they live on less that ONE (1), that is the number 1, US$ per day. I've seen hovels of sticks, cardboard, and tin on mountain sides in Mexico, and in Venezuela and "houses" made from bamboo and palm fronds in Viet Nam, though a while ago, and I've never set foot in Africa or India, but the world is poor, and we are worried about our wealth and retirement plans, maintaining our purchasing power by investing in PM's, not losing whatever wealth we may have, social security and health care, the cost of electricity and fuel, but not so much about fuel economy, the "immorality" of gay-marriages, flag-burning, play-station whatever, how many songs will an iPod hold, and did you get tickets to the NBA and NHL to see the playoffs. Barron's today, Ned Davis, among other things pointed out the per capita per year use of oil in the US is 25.8, in China 1.8 and India 0.8. Anybody born into or that can get into US is fortunate beyond imagination, even if you are homeless here, your prospects are better probably than are those for, I would guess, 50% of the people on earth. What we have in physical luxury in the US is sickening compare to what the poor have else where, and some of our biggest worry is how to keep things forever getting better for ourselves. I think anything truly bad that brings this country to its knees is fully earned.
                Last edited by Jim Nickerson; 07-01-06, 11:34 AM.
                Jim 69 y/o

                "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                Comment


                • #23
                  BK, Thanks for the article, exactly the kind of data I was looking for. Can't say that it was authoratative though. It starts by saying the cost to California is $10B, then it later sites another study saying the cost to the entire US after revenue from illegals is $10B. Both can't be right. Not to mention that the California data was provided by an anti immigration organization with the sole intent of explaining "how mass immigration harms the environment, fuels congestion and sprawl, burdens taxpayers, and conflicts with national security priorities". Wouldn't personally be more first choice as an independent source.

                  Even if we actually did spend $10B/yr. I'm not convinced that the cost isn't worth it vs. the alternatives.

                  That said I absolutely AGREE with you that overspending for McMansions and overspending on government programs comes from the same mind set about money. I'm just not at all convinced that illegal immigration is our primary spending problem... and I don't think most people appreciate the tangible benefits we receive from it.

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                  • #24
                    Cracking down on employers, cost of immigration

                    Originally posted by BK View Post
                    One thing you didn't touch on is the expansion of Government services to care for Illegal Immigrants today. . ..

                    No one ever attempts the analysis of Economic benefit LESS the economic cost to all US Citizens.
                    I heard of one analysis done by harvard professor. He found that low education immigrants make the public balance sheet worse. No surprise. Especially in today's economy, only the top 50% or so are really net tax payers. Kotlikoff has also stated that more immigration would not help the long run balance sheet of the country.

                    One reason it was not possible to crack down on employers is that they had no good way to determine citizenship. Not all citizens have a passport. Driver's license does not prove citizenship. So the employers could not demand any specific document, so it was hard to prove they knowingly hired illegals. I think we need a national ID card. Most of the "GO to" nations have one.
                    Last edited by Polish_Silver; 11-15-12, 04:35 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Cracking down on employers, cost of immigration

                      Originally posted by Polish_Silver View Post
                      One reason it was not possible to crack down on employers is that they had no good way to determine citizenship. Not all citizens have a passport. Driver's license does not prove citizenship. So the employers could not demand any specific document, so it was hard to prove they knowingly hired illegals.
                      Which, of course, is a bald-faced lie by the employers of illegal immigrant labor. I am a natural-born U.S. citizen and every job I have ever held required that I provide proof of citizenship either in the form of a U.S. passport or a birth certificate/driver's license combination. For naturalized Americans who do not have a U.S. passport, they could provide their naturalization papers and a photo ID.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Immigration: Enforce the Law the way we used to - Ann Anger

                        Originally posted by SeanO View Post
                        . Illegals spend their new found incomes like mad...
                        -)
                        Many of them send much of the income home. It goes straight out of the country.
                        They are acting rationally, and except for the actual criminals, I cannot blame them.
                        But that does not mean the effect on this country is positive.

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                        • #27
                          Immigrants and public eductaion

                          When I lived in silicon valley, the local paper would publish the results of student tests in all the public schools. There was a perfect correlation between lower scores and the number of non-native english speakers. No surprise, right? So a big part of the "problem schools" would seem to be immigrants. How do you measure that cost?

                          I also noticed that a lot of pro-immigrant people lived in expensive neighborhoods with very few illegal immigrants in thier children's schools. So I think everyone who wants unlimited immigration should move to central San Jose, where there are ton's of illegal immigrants.

                          I did a "ride a long" in a San Jose police car once. There was a map of the patrol zones. They ration the cars so that each one will patrol an area with an equal amount of crime. The areas of with lots of illegal immigrants were tiny. Do the immigrants cause the crime, or do they live there because the rent is cheap?
                          So hard to figure out! But there are a lot of latino street gangs in these areas, and I don't think the gangs meet to play chess. Other areas have asian street gangs. A latino who grew up in these areas told me that asian gangs are much worse to be around. He said that he often saw his childhood friends in the police beat section of the paper.

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