PDA

View Full Version : What Does USA Stand For?


GRG55
04-28-09, 05:43 AM
Could it be that USA now means Unlimited Socialist Aid???

For everyone...:p

GM Bailout May Mean Government Becomes Biggest Holder (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afZWYG7joTRU&refer=home)

April 28 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GM%3AUS), operating with $15.4 billion in U.S. aid, would be at least half owned by the U.S. government under the automaker’s plan to slash its debt and cut dealer ranks more than 40 percent.

The proposal, if accepted by the Obama administration, would give the Treasury at least half of the 60 billion shares in a reorganized GM, the automaker said yesterday. The U.S. would join European and Chinese governments in holding stakes in local automakers.

“Political economics are now part of the economy in the U.S.,” said Sean McAlinden (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Sean+McAlinden&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a labor analyst and economist at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

“They are going to control more of GM than the government of Lower Saxony owns of Volkswagen or France owns in Renault.”...

cjppjc
04-28-09, 03:08 PM
I know Facist is a word with bad overtones. But isn't this the definition of Facism?

FRED
04-28-09, 03:11 PM
I know Facist is a word with bad overtones. But isn't this the definition of Facism?

American Corporatism: a kinder, gentler fascism, without the political prisoners. All debt prisoners welcomed.

vanvaley1
04-28-09, 03:37 PM
Little Dorrit comes to mind. Didn't the Brits have a debtor prisoner ship system also? Know three of my ancestors had POW sheltering experiences with British prisoner ships back in the good ole days. Since they were located off Long Island I'm assuming they were five star accommodations.

don
04-28-09, 04:04 PM
American Corporatism: a kinder, gentler fascism, without the political prisoners. All debt prisoners welcomed.

The U.S., if nothing else, has built off of European foundations. Think Colonialism- Neocolonialism.

Begging the question, who will riff off the U.S. foundation of neo-liberalism?

China?

rogermexico
04-28-09, 04:25 PM
I know Facist is a word with bad overtones. But isn't this the definition of Facism?

Yes. This is like seeing aliens land in your back yard.

This country has become utterly unrecognizable.

Enough to convert one from a Republican to a flag-burning anarcho-capitalist.

I am embarrassed and ashamed to be an "American". I now want to move to the state that is most likely to secede.

flintlock
04-28-09, 04:46 PM
Yes. This is like seeing aliens land in your back yard.

This country has become utterly unrecognizable.

Enough to convert one from a Republican to a flag-burning anarcho-capitalist.

I am embarrassed and ashamed to be an "American". I now want to move to the state that is most likely to secede.

Amen brother! Frankly, its sad when secession is your best hope, but I fear it really has come to that. Democrats now have a supermajority to ram through any and every socialist program they can think of. Not that the Republicans were doing a great job either. :(

rogermexico
04-28-09, 04:53 PM
Amen brother! Frankly, its sad when secession is your best hope, but I fear it really has come to that. Democrats now have a supermajority to ram through any and every socialist program they can think of. Not that the Republicans were doing a great job either. :(

How do we form a third party without attracting "truthers" and the Aryan brotherhood? That is the difficulty. I don't have much hope for prying the republican party from the grips of the flag-humping world-policers and religious right.

Resurrect Goldwater?

Ruy DelSambuco
04-28-09, 05:04 PM
How do we form a third party without attracting "truthers" and the Aryan brotherhood?

I think I have read that in the U.S., something like 20% of the populations controls something like 80% of the wealth. If this is true, and if the current political parties represent the 20%, it seems that a 3rd party organized along class lines might be competitive. I know that Americans do not enjoy talking about class, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

KGW
04-28-09, 05:29 PM
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/01/that-bastion-of-american-socialism.html

January 2009

That Bastion of American Socialism

Dmitry Orlov


Over the past few months the American mainstream chatter has
experienced a sudden spike in the gratuitous use of the term
"Socialist." It was prompted by the attempts of the federal government
to resuscitate insolvent financial institutions. These attempts
included offers of guarantees to their clients, injections of large
sums of borrowed public money, and granting them access to almost-free
credit that was magically summoned ex nihilo by the Federal Reserve.
To some observers, these attempts looked like an emergency
nationalization of the finance sector was underway, prompting them to
cry "Socialism!" Their cries were not as strident as one would expect,
bereft of the usual disdain that normally accompanies the use of this
term. Rather, it was proffered with a wan smile, because the
commentators could find nothing better to say – nothing that would
actually make sense of the situation.

Not a single comment on this matter could be heard from any of the
numerous socialist parties, either opposition or government, from
around the globe, who correctly surmised that this had nothing to do
with their political discipline, because in the US "socialism" is
commonly used as a pejorative term, with willful ignorance and
breathtaking inaccuracy, to foolishly dismiss any number of
alternative notions of how society might be organized. What this new,
untraditional use of the term lacks in venom, it more than makes up
for in malapropism, for there is nothing remotely socialist to Henry
Paulson's "no banker left behind" bail-out strategy, or to Ben
Bernanke's "buy one – get one free" deal on the US Dollar (offered
only to well-connected friends) or to any of the other measures,
either attempted or considered, to slow the collapse of the US economy.

A nationalization of the private sector can indeed be called
socialist, but only when it is carried out by a socialist government.
In absence of this key ingredient, a perfect melding of government and
private business is, in fact, the gold standard of fascism. But nobody
is crying "Fascism!" over what has been happening in the US. Not only
would this seem ridiculously theatrical, but, the trouble is, we here
in the US have traditionally liked fascists. We had liked Mussolini
well enough, until he allied with Hitler, whom we only eventually grew
to dislike once he started hindering transatlantic trade. We liked
Spain's Franco well enough too. We liked Chile's Pinochet after having
a hand in bumping off his Socialist predecessor Allende (on September
11, 1973; on the same date some years later, I was very briefly seized
with the odd notion that the Chileans had finally exacted their
revenge). In general, a business-friendly fascist generalissimo or
president-for-life with no ties to Hitler is someone we could almost
always work with. So much for political honesty.

As a practical matter, failing at capitalism does not automatically
make you socialist, no more than failing at marriage automatically
make you gay. Even if desperation makes you randy for anything that is
warm-blooded and doesn't bite, the happily gay lifestyle is not
automatically there for the taking. There are the matters of grooming,
and manners, and interior decoration to consider, and these take work,
just like anything else. Speaking of work, building socialism
certainly takes a great deal of work, a lot of which tends to be
unpaid, voluntary labor, and so desperation certainly helps to inspire
the effort, but it cannot be the only ingredient. It also takes
intelligence, because, as Douglas Adams once astutely observed,
"people are a problem." In due course, they will learn to thwart any
system, no matter how well-designed it might be, be it capitalist,
socialist, anarchist, Ayn Randian, or one based on a strictly literal
interpretation of the Book of Revelation. However, here a distinction
can be drawn: systems that attempt to do good seem far more
corruptible than ones that have no such pretensions. Thus, a socialist
system, inspired by the noblest of impulses to help one's fellow man,
quickly develops social inequalities that it was designed to
eradicate, breeding cynicism, while a capitalist system, inspired by
the impulse to help oneself through greed and fear, starts out from
the position of perfect cynicism, and is therefore immune to such
effects, making it more robust, as long as it does not become
resource-constrained. It seems to be a superior system if your goal is
to keep the planet burning brightly, but when the fuel starts to run
low, it is quickly torn apart by the very impulses that motivated its
previous successes: greed turns to profiteering, draining the life
blood out of the economy, while fear causes capital to seek safe
havens, causing the wheels of commerce to grind to a halt. It could be
said that an intelligently designed, well-regulated capitalist system
could be made to avoid such pitfalls and persevere in the face of
resource constraints, but the US seems laughably far from achieving
this goal.

Taking intelligence itself as an example, if having more of it is a
good thing, then a bit of socialism could have helped a lot. Let us
start with the observation that intelligence, and the ability to
benefit from higher education, occur more or less randomly within a
human population. The genetic and environmental variation is such that
it is not even conceivable to breed people for high intellectual
abilities, although, as a look at any number of aristocratic lineages
will tell you, it is most certainly possible to breed blue-blooded
imbeciles. Thus, offering higher education to those whose parents can
afford it is a way to squander resources on a great lot of pampered
nincompoops while denying education to working class minds that might
actually soak it up and benefit from it. A case in point: why exactly
was it a good idea to send George W. Bush to Yale, and then to Harvard
Business School? A wanton misallocation of resources, wouldn't you
agree? At this point, I doubt that I would get an argument even from
his own parents. Perhaps in retrospect they would have been happier to
let someone more qualified decide whether young George should have
grown up to incompetently send men into battle or to competently
polish hub caps down on the corner.

Many countries, upon achieving a certain level of collective
intelligence, or upon finding themselves blessed with a sufficiently
intelligent benevolent dictator, followed a similar line of reasoning,
and organized a system of public education that meted out educational
opportunities based on the ability to learn, not the ability to pay.
In countries where such reforms were successful, society benefited
from the far more efficient allocation of resources, becoming more
egalitarian, better-educated, and more stable and prosperous. The
United States is one such country, where, following World War II, the
GI Bill did much to mitigate against the oppressive social
stratification of American society during the Great Depression, giving
it a new lease on life. In a politically honest country, this
achievement would have been touted as a great socialist victory. Here,
instead of building on this success, it was allowed to ebb away, until
now fewer and fewer qualified candidates can shoulder the high cost of
higher education, and even these have to forgo education proper in
favor of vocational training, in order to be in a position to pay back
student loans.

Other traditional socialist victories include securing the right to
housing, child care, health care, and retirement. In the context of US
public policy, many people will point to Roosevelt's New Society
"middle-class entitlements" as examples of such victories, Social
Security and Medicare being the big ones. As they point, they should
also laugh. What pitiable excuse for public housing are these
"projects" in which many of the poor are forced to live? Are
inner-city public schools "education," or are they, as many of the
teachers who work in them would agree, jails for young people? Is free
medical care such a great achievement if you have to survive to
retirement age, either as a wage slave, or without access to health
care, in order to qualify for it? To add insult to injury, there is a
limitless supply of pundits and experts, who can always get free air
time to claim that even these feeble attempts at an equitable society
are fiscally unsustainable and therefore must be curtailed. Poor
embargoed Cuba can afford to provide such luxuries, but the United
States is too poor to do the same? Pardon me while I attempt to knit
my brows into an incredulous frown while simultaneously twisting my
lips into a disdainful sneer! Might there perhaps be another reason?
Could it be that the lack of socialist education policies has allowed
our collective intelligence to drop to a level where the bulb glows
too dimly for us to see what is being done to us? No, these are not
victories, and they are certainly not socialist.

You might think that an argument could be made that this is all
irrelevant, because the flip side of a socialist defeat is a
capitalist victory. You might think that all of this talk of social
rights causes erosion of respect for money and property, followed by
other kinds of moral decay. You might also think that it is unfettered
free enterprise that has made mainstream American society the
economically stratified, downwardly mobile and economically insecure
place that it is, which is just as it should be. Alas, that argument
is no longer plausible: the flip side of a socialist defeat is a
capitalist defeat. No matter what your political persuasion might be,
there is simply no way that an economically insecure, badly educated,
badly treated population can be made to thrive, and this sets the
stage for some very bad economic performance. As the economy collapses
and economic losses mount, social and political instability become
inevitable.

Luckily, the converse of case is not inevitable: a capitalist defeat
does not automatically mean a socialist defeat. While an economy that
has lost its ability to grow signals the onset of terminal illness for
any capitalist system, socialist institutions can operate at a loss
virtually ad infinitim, delivering worse and worse results, but
distributing them equitably, so that no-one has more cause to complain
or to rebel than anyone else. In an age of dwindling resources – be
they mineral, ecological or financial – a socialist system stands a
better chance of holding together than a capitalist one.

To further elucidate this fine point, let us consider two different
environments: the cruise ship and the life boat. Aboard the cruise
ship we find Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, George Soros and Warren
Buffet, along with their assorted henchmen, fellow-travelers and
capitalist stool pigeons. While they are aboard the cruise ship, these
four worthies try to outdo each other in their outlandish spending
behavior, and all rejoice in their orgy of conspicuous consumption.
But now the cruise ship hits an iceberg and starts to go down, and the
four capitalist luminaries take to the lifeboat, along with the
passengers and the crew. While leaping aboard, Warren Buffet falls
overboard and sinks like a rock because of all the gold bullion sewn
into his belt, leaving three worthies to contend for the meager supply
of biscuits and fresh water. They hold an auction, and Gates wins all
of the biscuits. But before he manages to wolf down a single biscuit,
he is compelled, under murky and tumultuous circumstances, to swallow
a great quantity of seawater, bringing on hallucinations, renal
failure, and death. Larry Ellison then announces that he has just gone
on a diet, while George Soros looks around in confusion and says
"Don't worry everyone, I am buying." The captain of the sunken cruise
ship then asserts his authority, and, with everyone's vocal consent,
confiscates all money and all provisions, and institutes biscuit and
water rations. Luckily, it is the monsoon season, and the plentiful
rain allows everyone to drink their fill by catching water in their
hats, but the biscuits soon run out, and it becomes necessary to eat
someone. They draw lots, and Ellison gets the short straw. Before he
gets done explaining how many millions he is willing to spare in
exchange for them sparing his life, a member of the crew drives a boat
hook through his eye socket, and he is promptly eaten. By a strange
and suspicious coincidence, Soros is eaten next. But then, after a
month adrift, the castaways are finally rescued by a passing
freighter. No charges are brought against any of them, because the
acts of murder and cannibalism were deemed necessary to survival, and
were performed fairly, by the drawing of lots, in accordance with the
ancient custom of the sea. If their rescue were delayed, they could
have eaten each other down to one final ancient mariner, who would
then starve to death, all fair and square and above board.

But how, you might reasonably want to rejoin, might the sinking cruise
ship of the United States conceivably effect a transition from a
highly-capitalized, highly-leveraged system of for-profit private
enterprise to a more socialist-minded lifeboat model? What
institutions can aide with the transition? Would the whole thing need
to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up? Now, these are very
serious questions indeed.

Currently, a great many people are filled with hope that the incoming
Obama administration will bring much-needed change. Unfortunately, Mr.
Obama inherits an office much tainted by his predecessor, whose
attempt at securing his legacy included a clandestine trip to Baghdad
where, when he attempted to speak of victory, someone threw shoes at
him and called him a filthy dog, all on international television. The
US presidency is now a carnival side show: "Step right up, ladies and
gentlemen, and toss your shoes at Mr. President, for a chance to win
an all-expense-paid stay at our luxurious Abu Ghraib suite!" Alas,
Obama inherits an imperial mantle that has been trampled in the mud.
Due to a certain quirk of the national character, most Americans have
trouble understanding that honor is something you lose exactly once.
(As H. L. Mencken pointed out, in America honor is used only in
reference to members of Congress and the physical integrity of women.)
This quirk may not be significant in domestic politics, but the US
crucially depends on the rest of the world for every kind of support.
There are countries, in the Muslim part of the world especially, where
honor is of paramount importance, and having the highest office in the
land turned into a laughing-stock is not conducive to securing their
support.

And then there are the additional problems of poor advice and lack of
authority. To build support for his plans, Mr. Obama must rely on the
consensus advice of mainstream American economists. These astrologers
to the wealthy, with their fancy astrolabes they call "models," may be
popular during flush times, in spite of the feeble predictive
abilities of their "science," but they start to seem downright foolish
and feckless once the economy starts to implode. Still, these
pseudo-scientists, with their pseudo-Nobel prizes and their tenured
faculty positions, are quite entrenched, and will be difficult to
dismiss, because the fiction they spin is so much more cheerful than
the physical reality it is designed to obscure.

Add to this the fact that the financial and economic levers of control
that are available to Mr. Obama are no longer connected to anything
real. Mr. Obama's plans at economic stimulus may succeed in filling
our pockets with newly printed money, but that money will promptly
turn out to be worth its weight in kindling as soon as people try
spending it, because there is no longer any faith or credit to back it
up, and no growing economy in which to invest it. Should these
money-printing initiatives succeed in stimulating a quarter or two of
the usual anemic growth, the economy will again run into the same set
of resource constraints, cause the next spike in commodity prices,
another round of demand destruction, and economic collapse will resume
apace.

What is needed, of course, is a concerted effort to build a new,
vastly different economy, not squander remaining resources on attempts
to resuscitate the current, moribund one. But politicians are never
willing to dismantle the system that got them into power, and, like
Gorbachev before him, Obama will do all he can to restart the current
economy instead of letting it shut down and concentrating on planting
the seeds of a new one.

If Presidential authority is unlikely to do the trick, then what of
the US Congress? Even supposing that it members could betray their
friends the lobbyists who write much of the legislation they pass
without even reading it, as well as their base of well-heeled
supporters, what could they do? What they do do is legislate. Perhaps
someone might want to argue that there is a critical shortage of legal
documents in the United States, and too few lawyers to creatively
interpret them. No, if there is anything that is still in sufficient
supply, it is tortuous legalese, the minions who toil over it, and the
various courts, offices, and jails in which they toil. When it comes
to economic collapse and social disintegration, an old and venerable
legal codex is no handier than an old and venerable phone book. What
is generally needed, to preserve life and order, is to commandeer and
redistribute resources, and to compel people to do what needs to be
done, legal niceties be damned. There is no time to stand idly by and
wait while swarms of lawyers exercise their legal jowls. This calls
for men and women of action, not a deliberative body that is
accustomed to controlling the purse strings of a purse that they have
finally succeeded in emptying. The third and final branch of American
government – the judiciary – does not seem capable of the sort of
judicial activism the situation calls for, and is entirely unlikely to
try to get too far ahead of the legislative curve. So much for civics.

What, then, remains of that elusive American dream of having a
country, rather than a country club, that offers something to
everyone, and not just its most privileged members, even as the
situation becomes progressively more dire? Well, there is just one
such institution, but it is huge. I choose to call it, with all due
bombast, the Bastion of American Socialism. Not only is it a huge
institution in America itself – in fact, it is the largest, – but it
is arguably the most powerful institution on the entire planet, at
least in its destructive abilities, at least for the moment. It is the
United States military. Since it is undeniably a bastion of sorts, I
will concentrate on explaining why I think it is a socialist institution.

The various branches of the armed services provide numerous benefits
to the enlisted men and women, the officers, and the veterans. These
range from free family housing and day care to free medical care to
access technical training and to higher education. For many sons and
daughters of working class families, the military offers the only path
away from the farm, the poor neighborhood or the ghetto, and toward a
more prosperous life in the trades and even the professions. The Air
Force even provides unlimited free travel and a chance to see the
world. It is the single most socially progressive large institution
that the United States has. In a bitter twist of irony, it is also its
most brutal, designed, as it is, for politically sanctioned mass murder.

Of the working-class elderly, about the only ones who receive adequate
medical care are those who have access to the Veterans Administration
medical system. True, the services are often rationed, there are
waiting lists to see specialists, and proving that you were injured in
the line of duty often involves an exhausting paper chase. True,
certain popular ailments, such as exposure to Agent Orange and
depleted uranium, Gulf War Syndrome and the increasingly popular
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder are politicized and judiciously
misdiagnosed and ignored. But this is exactly what one generally
expects to see in a system of socialized medicine.

I would like to assure everyone that I am definitely not any sort of
American military triumphalist. The American military tradition is
heir to the British one, and, as H. L. Mencken pointed out, the
Anglo-Saxon has never been known to seek out a fair fight. The British
military did its best work using rifles against pygmies armed with
ripe fruit, and using machine guns to cut down cavalry. A wealth of
racist terminology was brought to bear, to dehumanize the enemy,
making such massacres palatable: the kaffir, the jap and the gook.
They were all brutes, to be exterminated. The Americans have carried
this tradition into the nuclear age, and used a nuke or two to subdue
the Japanese, who had all the other weapons that were modern during
that era. In the other theater of that war, on the Western front, the
supposedly good fight was won by sitting it out for as long as
possible, then ponderously bombing various hitherto picturesque
historical districts of Europe in order to time the entry into Berlin
to coincide with the arrival of the Soviet troops, who had a great
deal more to lose, and could be relied upon to do all of the heavy
lifting and most of the dying. So much for valor.

It is valid to ask whether the US military, aside from its socialist
policies for those who serve it, is the least bit useful. Perhaps it
is just a colossal, incompetent public money sponge that ruins
countless lives and gives the country a bad name. In all the more
recent conflicts save one (Reagan's invasion of the island of Grenada)
the US military has not come out as the victor. Korea, Viet Nam, Gulf
Wars I and II, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Somalia are all fiascos of one
sort or another. It can be said that the US military cannot win; it
can only blow things up. Now, blowing things up can be great fun, but
it cannot be the only element in a winning military strategy. The key
element is winning the peace, and here the US military has, time and
again, demonstrated outright incompetence, remaining stalemated and
waiting for political support to be withdrawn and the troops pulled
out and sent home.

In spite of these many failures, the US military blunders on
undeterred. This immunity to the effects of failure is also a
socialist trait: if a company does badly, the government gives it more
money and hopes for the best. This trait extends to military
contracts. For instance, Raytheon's Patriot missiles, as delivered,
would shoot down trees, apartment buildings, each other – anything but
the target. This was hushed up, and then Raytheon got more money and
told to try again. Another example: the greatest threat to the US Navy
is not any enemy, foreign or domestic, but Microsoft's Blue Screen of
Death, because their heavily computerized systems run on the
notoriously crashy Windows NT. The response is to reward Microsoft's
inability to write reliable software with more government contracts.

It is also valid to ask whether the US military, in its current highly
mechanized, mobile form, has any sort of future in a world of
dwindling oil supplies, much of them controlled by foreign
governments. The US military is currently the single largest consumer
of oil in the world, maintaining over a thousand military bases on
foreign soil, and burning prodigious amounts of fuel in resupplying
them, rotating the troops, and maintaining patrols. As fuel supplies
dwindle, these bases will have to be abandoned, and the troops
repatriated. Luckily, such extreme mobility and global reach will be
neither necessary nor desirable once the United States finds its new
place in the world as an inward-looking failed former superpower. Once
Hawaii is claimed by Japan or China, and Alaska reverts to Russian
control, the remaining United States will be a contiguous landmass
that can be traversed on foot. Thus, the US military may yet have a
bright future, as an infantry equipped with small arms, horses, mules,
bicycles and canoes.

Such a downsized military would not be able to project force halfway
across the globe on a moment's notice, but it may be able to redeploy
to a neighboring county, or even a neighboring state, by sometime next
month, provided the weather cooperates. The modest defense services it
would be able to provide would certainly be needed: the citizenry of
the United States, much more than that of most other countries, needs
to be defended from itself at all times. The number of unresolved
social conflicts, old grievances and injustices waiting to be avenged,
requires a constant police presence to be maintained at all times in
most of the thickly settled areas – a presence that will dwindle along
with municipal budgets. Add to that the already very high homicide
rate, and the huge prison population – largest in the world – that
will be released en masse once the municipal and federal funds needed
to maintain it can no longer be allocated to the purpose, and you have
a recipe for non-stop murder and mayhem. To mitigate against these
effects, federal troops can be strategically stationed in some of the
more troublesome areas. Local and state troops would be far less
effective: it has been known since Roman times that forces brought in
from another province are far more effective at quelling unrest than
those drawn from the local population.

Beyond maintaining order and preventing unnecessary bloodshed, the
military possesses a property almost unique among government agencies:
the ability to execute arbitrary orders, not subject to political
authority, not limited to job description, and not subject to
questioning, because "an order is an order!" Issuing orders is quicker
and easier than legislating, because laws are blunt instruments, and
are always subject to interpretation. Don't even try telling a lawyer
"A law is a law! Shut up!" It just doesn't work. To get things done in
an emergency, it is better to bypass lawyers and courts altogether.

One useful order would be: "Grow potatoes!" As the current system of
industrial agriculture runs out of the chemicals, fuel and credit
needed to fund and run its large-scale operations, many more hands
will suddenly be needed to operate hoes, shovels and pitchforks in
order to grow enough food to meet even the minimum caloric
requirements of the population. Although I am sure that my
gentleman-farmer friends will do their patriotic utmost to keep us all
fed, bringing to bear all that they are currently busy learning about
organic farming methods, permaculture, no-till agriculture and other
helpful techniques, having access to an organized, disciplined labor
force would help the process immeasurably.

Despite these significant positives, life under what would amount to a
military occupation, where the customary civilian rights are routinely
disregarded, and where the citizen is constantly faced with arbitrary
authority backed up by the threat of force, can hardly be described as
pleasant. But here, too, the result may be an improvement of sorts.
Since the end of the Civil War, Americans have become accustomed to
thinking of war as something that happens elsewhere, to other people.
Thus, the news that the US is bombing this or that land, for no
adequate reason, killing and maiming numerous civilians, produces in
us neither the normal human reaction of revulsion, nausea and disgust,
nor the conviction that we must take the fight to our own monstrous
leaders, lest we too become monsters. Life under domestic military
occupation might bring home some welcome realizations, and start
Americans down the long road of atoning for the sins of their
forefathers, who have run roughshod over much of the rest of the
planet for far too long. Paradoxically, as the legacy of US militarism
fades away, it may leave behind a society that is far more humane,
socialist even, than the one that gave rise to it.

goadam1
04-28-09, 05:32 PM
The soft fascism of low expectations.

GRG55
04-28-09, 05:53 PM
Could it be that USA now means Unlimited Socialist Aid???

For everyone...:p

GM Bailout May Mean Government Becomes Biggest Holder (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afZWYG7joTRU&refer=home)




It just keeps getting worse.

By the hour.

Rules? What rules...:p

U.S. Tries to Broker Sale Of Chrysler's Loan Arm (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/27/AR2009042703358.html?wprss=rss_business)

Takeover by GMAC Is Meeting Resistance

Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, April 28, 2009

The Treasury Department is racing to engineer the sale of Chrysler's financing arm in a move the administration deems vital to saving the troubled automaker, but other federal agencies have not given their support, sources familiar with the matter said...

...Treasury officials have not yet obtained the agreement of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the Federal Reserve, sources said. The FDIC, created to backstop the banking industry, is balking out of concern that its resources would be drained in support of an auto manufacturer. And the Fed, which regulates banks, would need to grant a waiver from a long-standing rule that separates banking and commerce...

...The dilemma over Chrysler Financial highlights the debate over the how far the government should stretch its financial rescue programs to help failing automakers. Despite reservations, regulators already anointed GMAC a bank holding company in December so it could access the federal bailout for financial companies and help preserve General Motors (http://financial.washingtonpost.com/custom/wpost/html-qcn.asp?dispnav=business&mwpage=qcn&symb=GM&nav=el). Now regulators are being asked to preserve another storied American automaker.

Even if a deal is reached for Chrysler Financial, the fate of the car manufacturer remains uncertain. The Obama administration's auto industry task force and Chrysler's lenders remained in a standoff yesterday. If an agreement with the lenders cannot be reached to forgive most of their $6.9 billion in loans to the company, Chrysler is set to file for bankruptcy by Thursday, sources said...

...But if Chrysler files for bankruptcy protection, keeping Chrysler Financial afloat still remains critical to the company's future, some industry and government officials said. A collapse of the financing arm could take down many dealers, which rely on short-term loans to buy the cars that sit on their lots. Chrysler sales could also grind to a halt as consumers struggle to get car loans. In the present environment, it would be difficult for dealers and customers to get financing from banks...

Munger
04-28-09, 06:08 PM
I know Facist is a word with bad overtones. But isn't this the definition of Facism?

Depends on what definition you are using. I tend to go with Roosevelt's, which is the opposite: corporate controlled government. Which is what we have; not as in the open as government controlled corporations though.

Glenn Black
04-28-09, 06:24 PM
80/20 is typical, ever since Pareto did the study in the 1800's in Spain

Scot
04-28-09, 07:18 PM
I know Facist is a word with bad overtones. But isn't this the definition of Facism?

Fascism is more a political philosophy that advocates making the individual completely subordinate to the interests of the state and society. The individual is seen as a kind of body part in a larger organism.

It was a response to the class conflict ideas of communism, and tried to substitute the idea of class cooperation.

That's what "corporatism" means in the context of Fascism. Some groups are seen as the hands, some as the mouth, etc, but all working together, voluntarily or involuntarily, as a whole.

Of course political leaders make themselves the brain. And a body can only have one brain, right? So let the state do the thinking, or else!

pwcmba
04-28-09, 07:43 PM
The Original Question Is Easy:

What Does The Usa Now Stand For?

Nothing!

cjppjc
04-28-09, 08:39 PM
The Original Question Is Easy:

What Does The Usa Now Stand For?

Nothing!


Well, you know that was the original question. I'm not sure if your answer is correct. I just can't think right now of a better answer. Maybe, less than it used to.

GRG55
04-29-09, 01:50 AM
The news comes as Chrysler races toward its April 30 deadline to complete an alliance with Italy's Fiat SpA (FIA.MI) and follows an announcement by Chrysler that it has reached an agreement with the United Auto Workers (UAW) leaders to modify its labor contract and reduce the amount the company owes a retiree health fund.
The UAW would end up owning 55 percent of the struggling U.S. automaker under the concessionary contract members must vote on by Wednesday night.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090428/bs_nm/us_chrysler_lenders_8

Fascism is a term that has been undefined for 80 years and is most closely associated with Nazism which it truly is not. The common link between both fascism and socialism as I see it is the belief that the intellectual elite are the most qualified to determine the destiny of the non elite. That people often are naturally comfortable being dictated to as long as they feel they are being taken care of by the state is the core of both beliefs. This is what made America different. The founding fathers understood the ability of the perceived elite to control the population by a democratic process. This is why they chose a republic with an electoral college not elected by the people directly but by their representatives that they elected in each state. I do not believe in the intellectual elite I believe everybody should have the right to choose their own destiny according to their own abilities. :)
<O:p
The most eye opening thing about both of these restructurings is that the unions will be given a majority ownership position in each company. At least 39% at GM and 55% at Chrysler...

Think of it as the next evolution in "The Ownership Society"...:rolleyes:



I do not weep for the bond and shareholders as the companies are insolvent and should be liquidated. So the shareholders would be wiped out and the bondholders are still going to take a major loss. The real travesty to this is that the unions will run the companies when the government leaves. The government will leave as they are not in the business of running companies. But when they leave you will find two companies that will be controlled by the labor unions. They will not be competitive. Do you think they will negotiate lower wages or benefits from themselves? How are they going to be competitive against 100's of global car companies with cheap labor? Are they going to be more innovative? Or are they going to build what the government wants but the public will not buy.

More seriously, I am not sure I completely agree with you. The equity interests are not being "given" to the unions. The employees have a legitimate legal claim, as do the bondholders and shareholders. If they did not, they would have recieved nothing. One can probably accept that the government meddling to force a resolution means it potentially exerted undue influence in favour of some stakeholders interests over others, and perhaps therefore the unions may have benefited disproportionately...but I think its pretty difficult to argue that this is any sort of sweetheart deal for the unions. Nor can it be argued that the UAW wants its members exposed to the risks of ownership; the pattern over many decades of bargaining is exactly the opposite for both the UAW and the CAW. That they are now being forced into some sort of employee ownership "Southwest Airlines" type of model is exactly what they have fought fiercely to avoid in the past.


I feel sorry for Ford which is actually the company that should survive and benefit from less domestic competition and compete with the rest of the globe. But these restructurings will lead to the failure of Ford because they have lost all their leverage with the unions (Do you think the UAW will negotiate in good faith now that they know that if Ford fails they will own the majority of them as well) and GM and Chrysler will be able to undercut Ford because they are not in the for profit business but the labor union and pension preservation business.
<O:p
As we look at GM and Chrysler we are watching a beta test for the US in general. Will the younger workers take less salary and benefits to pay the enormous legacy costs of the union workers that came before them. Or will they let the company wallow and die destroying both the pensioners and the current jobs. A similar but larger question is will the younger citizens of <ST1:p<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.itulip.com/forums/ /><st1:country-region alt=</st1:country-region>America </ST1:phappily accept a lower standard of living to pay the Social Security and Medicare of the Baby Boomers who failed to save for their retirements? As GM goes so does <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pAmerica</st1:country-region> now has a whole different meaning.<O:p
<O:p

You raise some valid points about the "moral hazard" of bailing out failed enterprises.

Ford's only labour negotiating leverage now is the threat of plant closures and union job reductions. It really does have a problem now, and it may be that one of the unintended consequences of the government's meddling [and you just know there's going to be some unintended consequences] is that Ford relinquishes a large part of the North American market to GM/Chrysler/Fiat and is forced to concentrate it's business overseas.

If I recall correctly, one of the first things that happened at Ford shortly after Alan Mulally arrived from Boeing, is that he mortgaged everything in the company including the blue oval. I believe that is the reason Ford has not had to tap federal funding...so far. But that means the balance sheet is likely as fragile as that of GM and Chrysler, if not worse.

BiscayneSunrise
04-29-09, 04:09 AM
More seriously, I am not sure I completely agree with you. The equity interests are not being "given" to the unions. The employees have a legitimate legal claim, as do the bondholders and shareholders. If they did not, they would have recieved nothing. One can probably accept that the government meddling to force a resolution means it potentially exerted undue influence in favour of some stakeholders interests over others, and perhaps therefore the unions may have benefited disproportionately...but I think its pretty difficult to argue that this is any sort of sweetheart deal for the unions. Nor can it be argued that the UAW wants its members exposed to the risks of ownership; the pattern over many decades of bargaining is exactly the opposite for both the UAW and the CAW. That they are now being forced into some sort of employee ownership "Southwest Airlines" type of model is exactly what they have fought fiercely to avoid in the past.




It would be worthwhile to look at the union ownership piece at United Airlines.

In 1996, the pilots union led an ESOP with the idea they had better strategic vision and day to day capabilities than management.

During the ESOP, union rhetoric revolved around concepts about being properly rewarded and entitlement. In my mind ownership is about sacrifice and hard work; union leadership at United saw it differently. There was a infamous quote from the head of the pilot union saying "it is my job to squeeze as many golden eggs from the goose as possible without actually killing it."

There was a constant tug of war between pilots who wanted profits diverted to both pay raises and the purchase of new airplanes which would allow advancement. Other employees groups only wanted pay raises.
The executive team was hamstrung in actually trying to run a company. Any real innovation was stifled by union leadership. Highly capable and progressive managers at all levels were blackballed by union members and eased out of the company.

As union contracts came due in 2000, unions were able to use the leverage of their ownership and a friendly Clinton White House. A demoralized and hollowed out executive team conceded to unsustainable pay raises. After 9/11, when the company sought relief, the unions stood firm and refused concessions, ultimately leading to United's bankruptcy filing in 2002. The goose was squeezed just a little too hard.

Like the UAW, unions at United also had legitimate legal claims. In bankruptcy court the unions sought compensation for their equity and their pay cuts. They were ultimately awarded only pennies on the dollar, not fresh ownership. Arguably, union meddling was directly responsible for United's woes and the union employees got what they deserved. Conversely, one could say the UAW are innocent victims but I'm not certain they deserve massive amounts of equity.

As unions go, the UAW are the least worst. We will see if they can avoid the entitlement mentality of union ownership.

marvenger
04-29-09, 05:40 AM
I think that sums it up well. Hey, power corrupts, when society is primarily a game to establish winners and losers what else do you expect?

GRG55
04-29-09, 07:34 AM
It would be worthwhile to look at the union ownership piece at United Airlines.

In 1996, the pilots union led an ESOP with the idea they had better strategic vision and day to day capabilities than management.

During the ESOP, union rhetoric revolved around concepts about being properly rewarded and entitlement. In my mind ownership is about sacrifice and hard work; union leadership at United saw it differently. There was a infamous quote from the head of the pilot union saying "it is my job to squeeze as many golden eggs from the goose as possible without actually killing it."

There was a constant tug of war between pilots who wanted profits diverted to both pay raises and the purchase of new airplanes which would allow advancement. Other employees groups only wanted pay raises.
The executive team was hamstrung in actually trying to run a company. Any real innovation was stifled by union leadership. Highly capable and progressive managers at all levels were blackballed by union members and eased out of the company.

As union contracts came due in 2000, unions were able to use the leverage of their ownership and a friendly Clinton White House. A demoralized and hollowed out executive team conceded to unsustainable pay raises. After 9/11, when the company sought relief, the unions stood firm and refused concessions, ultimately leading to United's bankruptcy filing in 2002. The goose was squeezed just a little too hard.

Like the UAW, unions at United also had legitimate legal claims. In bankruptcy court the unions sought compensation for their equity and their pay cuts. They were ultimately awarded only pennies on the dollar, not fresh ownership. Arguably, union meddling was directly responsible for United's woes and the union employees got what they deserved. Conversely, one could say the UAW are innocent victims but I'm not certain they deserve massive amounts of equity.

As unions go, the UAW are the least worst. We will see if they can avoid the entitlement mentality of union ownership.

My observation is that very few people in large, complex organizations actually have a good understanding of how their business really works. I constantly have very spirited debates with colleagues who stayed in Big Oil...and find most of them, although they may be excellent technical people and/or managers, are scarcely more knowledgable than the lay public about how their industry actually works.

We live in a world where we've been taught from grade school to sub-divide complex systems or problems, breaking them down into component parts, each finally small enough that we can gain sufficient understanding of how they individually work. Unfortunately setting corporate strategies, examining competitive threats, and other actions that go on in the executive boardroom actually requires the ability to re-aggregate all the pieces mentally, and have a more systemic or holistic understanding of the organization...particularly difficult to do for large, multi-faceted organizations.

I have long been of the view that the real reason the Daimler-Chrysler marriage failed is not because the individual department or function "synergies" were not properly assessed, but because Daimler management did not, [or could not?] develop a comprehensive picture of how the "one" merged company would function and what new strategic opportunities, unavailable to either of the individual companies, would be possible ost-merger. I have a picture of lots of activity drawing departmental organization charts, "cross-functional matrices" [a favourite of the management consultants], normalizing HR policies, setting up committees to select "best practices", tons of money pouring into the black hole of systems integration, all against the usual backdrop of maneuvering for the plum assignments...but nobody actually having any real clue why the merger should have occurred in the first place.

I've heard that a near-death experience almost always changes people. We'll have to see how the players in GM and Chrysler have been changed, if at all, by their corporate near-death experience.

GRG55
04-29-09, 08:24 AM
I agree with you that employees have a claim but according to the law they would I believe be an unsecured creditor. The labor contract could be rejected in bankruptcy and reopened to negotiation or just terminated (penty of case law on this) . I believe the pension obligation is also an unsecured claim and as such can be reduced substantially and then the Pension Guarantee Corp would pay a reduced amount of the pension money to the workers (plenty of case law on this). This is a much cleaner solution and is the law. The bondholders are the secured creditor. They took the risk of lending capital and the workers benefited from that risk and took the benefit of the money in the form of salaries and benefits. They took no risk. Now how it is equitable that they be made whole (or given the opportunity to be made whole by being converted to ownership equity) but the bondholders get crushed. In normal times this would never happen. I am not being cynical here but their are ridged bankruptcy rules which prioritize claims and pay according to the rule of law. A secured creditor never gets less then an unsecured creditor ever. The secured creditors need to be made as whole as possible before the unsecured are even considered otherwise they just convert to chapter 7 and liquidate the assets which they have a secured claim on and everyone else packs up their toys and goes home with nothing if they do not sell the assets for more then the secured claim. I believe this is why the government is strong arming everyone outside of the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy court. I am not being cynical here but do you think any of these bondholders have a CDS held by AIG. So they are told by the government take the haircut and we will make you whole through AIG (taxpayers). Once again this would not happen in normal times and I doubt it would happen in a full fledge bankruptcy fight in the courts. With out the political shield the unions would be in a much worse position under the law then the secured bond holders and rightfully so because it is the law with years of case history. But we now live in a world of change. EJ is right you cannot invest in this enviornment. I would never lend any money to a Union Contracted company as a bondholder based upon the precedent being set.

Ford also sold assets (Jaguar and Rangerover) and shutterd plants to raise capital. They also are producing better trucks (any F-150 fans?) and are seriously trying to compete with the international players by taking painfull steps to reinvent their lines. To Mulally's credit he came in made the hard decisions and excecuted quickly as he new time was of the essence in order to make Ford more competitive. They should be given every opportunity to survive and thrive with the orderly disolution of GM and Chrysler through bankruptcy. Not only would they be able to buy the better assets they would be able to negotiate better terms with the labor unions. It is better for the american auto industry and america for it to be done that way. Instead we get Zombie Car Companies to keep the Zombie Banks company.


The bondholders are not secured. That is why they are getting what they feel is a raw deal. If the bondholders were secured they would, as you say, be ahead of most of the claims of the employees.

Further, if they were secured they would be negotiating from a position of much greater strength and therefore the deal would look much different from the one being proposed.

Finally, it is because the bondholders in question are unsecured that it is probably in their interests to negotiate a resolution and avoid bankruptcy court. Secured bondholders would have no such fear. Unsecured bondholders on the other hand are on par with other unsecured creditors [of which there are plenty], and are at the mercy of the court if they don't settle in advance...even if that settlement is "on the day, on the courthouse steps" :)

General Motors Plans Debt Exchange Prior to June 1 Bond Payment (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aRbiTfvwyolU)

April 22 (Bloomberg) -- [I]General Motors Corp. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GM%3AUS), trying to restructure before a U.S. bankruptcy deadline of June 1, won’t make a bond payment due on that date because it plans a prior debt exchange.
“A successful bond exchange is an essential element of our out-of-court restructuring efforts, and we are working aggressively to launch an exchange,” GM spokeswoman Renee Rashid-Merem (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Renee%0ARashid-Merem&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said. “That exchange could still be in process on June 1. Therefore we would not expect to make the June 1 bond payment.”

GM Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Fritz+Henderson&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) needs to convince unsecured bondholders to reduce $27.5 billion in debt to less than $9.2 billion and equity or file for bankruptcy court protection by June 1...

charliebrown
04-29-09, 11:45 AM
hello cb here
i am a former united manager 1997 - 2002. I was hired after the esop. rank and file hated the esop. the esop was forced upon them by the executive management team. either esop or we'll outsource you. catering was the first to be outsourced. after catering and a few other divisions were outsourced the employees caved. they took big benefit and salary cuts in exchange for ual common stock.

The depressed salary structure made it very hard to hire top talent.
also if you quit, you could unload your stock so we also lost some good people when the stock hit a high in 97-98?? also the internet boom was going so if you were good you could cash out your ual stock and get a better paying job somewhere else.

anyhow, i was not privy to union rules and contracts in my postion. management had their mess ups too. i dont think they anticiapted the change the internet would have on the industry. united's business model was to sock it to the business traveler. At the same time many companies were getting rid of their travel desks and having their employees book their own travel. most chose price line, expedia etc. and they found a cheaper flight on a competitor.

other bone headed moves ...
-- attempt a merger with an even worse airline u.s. air.
--repaint aircraft blue on the bottom, grey on top. i suppose a saftey guy was asked about that??
--repaint aircraft again with the ted logo.
--have literally 300 fares between chicago and denver with 90% of the volume on 10 fare codes. the costs to conceive, manage, file the fares are huge and for what, not to mention the passenger feels like he's on lets make a deal.
-- fly 5 or 6 different airframes, each one requiring a specially trained flight crew, parts inventory, and mechanics, cabin configuration, on and on.

Yes pilots make a lot of money, but ... they are in charge of 100M dollar aircraft and 200 lives. They should get paid big bucks, but it seems like the current fare structure does not support their salary. The model is really broken. I think? that it takes about 30gal of fuel to fly a passenger from chi - san fran on a reasonably loaded plane. sometimes it seems that the fare doesn't cover the fuel. No im not a pilot.

airplanes as you now are extreemly expensive, do capacity planning wrong and you own too many aircraft. everyone seems to follow the same model so when you do own too many so does everyone else so you end up parking aircraft in the desert. A high risk game to be sure.

GRG55
04-29-09, 06:59 PM
hello cb here
i am a former united manager 1997 - 2002. I was hired after the esop. rank and file hated the esop. the esop was forced upon them by the executive management team. either esop or we'll outsource you. catering was the first to be outsourced. after catering and a few other divisions were outsourced the employees caved. they took big benefit and salary cuts in exchange for ual common stock.

The depressed salary structure made it very hard to hire top talent.
also if you quit, you could unload your stock so we also lost some good people when the stock hit a high in 97-98?? also the internet boom was going so if you were good you could cash out your ual stock and get a better paying job somewhere else.

anyhow, i was not privy to union rules and contracts in my postion. management had their mess ups too. i dont think they anticiapted the change the internet would have on the industry. united's business model was to sock it to the business traveler. At the same time many companies were getting rid of their travel desks and having their employees book their own travel. most chose price line, expedia etc. and they found a cheaper flight on a competitor.

other bone headed moves ...
-- attempt a merger with an even worse airline u.s. air.
--repaint aircraft blue on the bottom, grey on top. i suppose a saftey guy was asked about that??
--repaint aircraft again with the ted logo.
--have literally 300 fares between chicago and denver with 90% of the volume on 10 fare codes. the costs to conceive, manage, file the fares are huge and for what, not to mention the passenger feels like he's on lets make a deal.
-- fly 5 or 6 different airframes, each one requiring a specially trained flight crew, parts inventory, and mechanics, cabin configuration, on and on.

Yes pilots make a lot of money, but ... they are in charge of 100M dollar aircraft and 200 lives. They should get paid big bucks, but it seems like the current fare structure does not support their salary. The model is really broken. I think? that it takes about 30gal of fuel to fly a passenger from chi - san fran on a reasonably loaded plane. sometimes it seems that the fare doesn't cover the fuel. No im not a pilot.

airplanes as you now are extreemly expensive, do capacity planning wrong and you own too many aircraft. everyone seems to follow the same model so when you do own too many so does everyone else so you end up parking aircraft in the desert. A high risk game to be sure.

And selling a perishable commodity to boot...because when a plane leaves the ground every empty unsold set is immediately worth less than day old bread.

Tough business to be in for sure. Which I why I could never quite understand the attraction for people like Freddie Laker, Don Burr, and even Richard Branson. Prestige maybe?

GRG55
04-29-09, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I had a bad source with a conflict between secured and unsecured. I must admit I did not read it carefully. I will try and be more diligent in the future.



This is our community fliped42, and that's what we do around here...filter through the MSM and FIRE economy BS and try to help each other try to piece together and understand what the real picture is. Your presence and contribution is valued!

vanvaley1
04-29-09, 07:33 PM
I think I have read that in the U.S., something like 20% of the populations controls something like 80% of the wealth. If this is true, and if the current political parties represent the 20%, it seems that a 3rd party organized along class lines might be competitive. I know that Americans do not enjoy talking about class, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

I wouldn't mind belonging to the "Middle Class Party". Anybody got some startup capital? Maybe we can borrow it from the banks?

Rajiv
04-29-09, 08:48 PM
For those interested in reading a very good study of wealth distribution in the US, please see Edward N. Wolff's "Recent Trends in Household Wealth in the United States: Rising Debt and the Middle-Class Squeeze (http://www.levy.org/pubs/wp_502.pdf)," June, 2007. (Download the full text pdf file.)

vanvaley1
05-07-09, 01:49 AM
For those interested in reading a very good study of wealth distribution in the US, please see Edward N. Wolff's "Recent Trends in Household Wealth in the United States: Rising Debt and the Middle-Class Squeeze (http://www.levy.org/pubs/wp_502.pdf)," June, 2007. (Download the full text pdf file.)

Doe the IMF or some other agency track the wealth distribution of the world using the same or similar methodology that this author does? Is this data compiled by countries then distributed for analysis purposes for political/economic purposes? Do leaders use these type of studies for directing social changes, strengthening social contracts, or are they just useless studies?

nero3
05-07-09, 09:29 AM
My feelings about the US is that it went from being a young, optimistic country such as China and India today, in the first part of the 1900 century, to becoming a hollowed out empire, there are not many reasons for the apparent prosperity anymore, other than the printing press and that the world still takes dollars, and that it still have the strongest military. However, my negative feelings towards the US did not start before after 9/11, and the chase that followed. I guess, the US, the productive US died from the 1980-s when the debt bubble began.

snakela
05-07-09, 10:03 AM
I read a good one a few days ago on some other site. USA is now USGS ( for goldman sachs)

GRG55
05-07-09, 08:39 PM
I read a good one a few days ago on some other site. USA is now USGS ( for goldman sachs)

How about USA = United States of AIG...:rolleyes:

ThePythonicCow
05-09-09, 09:18 PM
Obama say's the bankruptcy will be quick. How does he know that?

His teleprompter told him?

Slightly more seriously, I have not noticed a strong correlation between what Obama knows and what he says. On the other hand, I have noticed a good correlation between what Obama figures his audicence wants to hear and what he says.

flintlock
05-11-09, 07:46 AM
Slightly more seriously, I have not noticed a strong correlation between what Obama knows and what he says. On the other hand, I have noticed a good correlation between what Obama figures his audicence wants to hear and what he says.

Not defending him, but that pretty much applies to any politician these days, from county commissioner up!:D

c1ue
05-11-09, 08:41 AM
Another note: One reason GM, followed by Chrysler - are not going the Ford route is because GM was a leader in the whole car finance business.

Unless my memory is quite mistaken, GM was the first to offer 0% financing as an example - and I'd be surprised if they weren't also early in offering incentives.

Chrysler did not do this, but did get bought by a combination of dump (by Daimler) and LBO thus has an equally high debt level.

Thus Ford probably CAN do what it is doing, whereas GM is pretty much stuck in the same boat as the banks due to GMAC - just without a paddle.