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audrey_girl
03-08-09, 01:11 PM
from the GATA folks, interesting interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83UUkiLyd0U&feature=channel_page

is it really this bad and this close?

rabot10
03-08-09, 01:38 PM
I hope not

Starving Steve
03-08-09, 01:43 PM
I could not watch the interview because my computer has a hard time with videos.

Less than $100 million dollars per day of short selling is destroying all of the major companies in America. This is what the CFO of GE had to say last week. Why does the U.S. government allow this?

Perhaps, if we had different leadership than Bernanke heading the Fed, things would be different. The Fed would buy against the short-sellers at 10AM E.S.T. on Monday morning --- the usual time when the short-sellers move in--- and put them out-of-business.

Why did Obama keep Bernanke at the Fed? Bernanke is Bush's man.
Everything Bernanke has done at the Fed seems to be a colossal failure. Why keep him?

The obvious move for the Fed is to move against the short-sellers in New York. Why isn't this obvious to Bernanke? :confused:

Truefire
03-08-09, 05:03 PM
JP Morgan is the heart of the derivative beast. The are widely recognized as the main market manipulators and their death, though unbelievably devastating, will ultimately provide the world an opportunity to rid themselves of the central banking control.

Unfortunately this action will also leave all of us suseptible to tyrannical forces that will be positioned to control us all.

Peace, Love & compassion are the only repair tolls needed to fix this mess. We can only be controlled if they convince us to kill & dominate each other instead of love & help each other.

A great battle between good & evil is about to commence. Which side will you be on? Will you be a instrument of peace

Starving Steve
03-08-09, 06:06 PM
To discuss this very subject, i.e, the structure or model of Western versus Eastern finance, the Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum is meeting currently in Jakarta, Indonesia.

So, maybe you would rather use the Islamic model of finance where the lender takes a share of the debtor's business or property, instead of compound interest? Is that more "touchy-feely" to you?

Hopefully, you will be a good slave because the Islamic paradigm is about slavery and obedience to Sharia Law, and part of Sharia Law deals with finance.

Run afoul of Sharia Law, and you may be whipped or worse. Sometimes, they chop your arm or head off. "Peace and love." Enjoy!:D

By the way, welcome to itulip.

LargoWinch
03-08-09, 06:13 PM
GATA's Bill Murphy certainly thinks the house of Morgan is in serious trouble:

(note part 1 is the bottom one)
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/83UUkiLyd0U&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></object>

Truefire
03-08-09, 06:16 PM
Not Sure how you morphed my disgust for central banking market manipulators into a new monetary system controlled by sharia law, curious.

I will stick with the model originally set in place by the founding fathers, if we can get back to it.

Great site, thanks for the welcome.

Peace

jtabeb
03-08-09, 07:00 PM
To discuss this very subject, i.e, the structure or model of Western versus Eastern finance, the Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum is meeting currently in Jakarta, Indonesia.

So, maybe you would rather use the Islamic model of finance where the lender takes a share of the debtor's business or property, instead of compound interest? Is that more "touchy-feely" to you?

Hopefully, you will be a good slave because the Islamic paradigm is about slavery and obedience to Sharia Law, and part of Sharia Law deals with finance.

Run afoul of Sharia Law, and you may be whipped or worse. Sometimes, they chop your arm or head off. "Peace and love." Enjoy!:D

By the way, welcome to itulip.

Ahh, more good BASHING on the Islamic religion.
And SO THOUGHTFUL TOO.

I'll try to remember who (or Why) I'm serving when I'm flying over Iraq or Afghanistan next time. (That would be this December BTW)

Thanks, This Is WHY I CHOOSE to serve. So Idiots like you can choose to run their moth off in any manner they see fit.

Your Friend.

A. Muslim

Starving Steve
03-08-09, 07:35 PM
The Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum (the WIEF) in Jakarta is important world news, and it is one of the top stories on the BBC World Television currently. The so-called barbarity and failure of Western banking is being talked about right now in Jakarta, and that is why I brought the WIEF up.

I don't want to single-out Islam for bashing nor imply that I did. Rather, I want to bash all religion.... To me, religion is a sad hang-over from the world's Dark Ages

I can't think of much good that has come out of religion, but I can think of much evil. The Middle East to-day stands as proof of the inherent evil of religion.

As for Sharia Law, I fear it, and I hate it.... And we need to discuss Sharia Law and what it would mean to our Western way of life. That is not Islam-bashing; that is a fair question.

Basil
03-08-09, 10:39 PM
To discuss this very subject, i.e, the structure or model of Western versus Eastern finance, the Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum is meeting currently in Jakarta, Indonesia.

So, maybe you would rather use the Islamic model of finance where the lender takes a share of the debtor's business or property, instead of compound interest? Is that more "touchy-feely" to you?

Hopefully, you will be a good slave because the Islamic paradigm is about slavery and obedience to Sharia Law, and part of Sharia Law deals with finance.

Run afoul of Sharia Law, and you may be whipped or worse. Sometimes, they chop your arm or head off. "Peace and love." Enjoy!:D

By the way, welcome to itulip.

Perhaps you are mocking those who know nothing about shariah law. Nonetheless, I feel the need to clarify that shariah is far more nuanced that what this post makes it out to be. Can you tell which offenses are considered punishable by mutilation and in which schools of law and under what particular circumstances? No? I thought not?

Punishment by mutilation is extremely rare in Muslims countries and has actually been banned many times in accordance with Shatiah law. The punitive legal systems of both Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are based in large part upon the rejection of traditional Shariah law.

jtabeb
03-08-09, 11:05 PM
The Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum (the WIEF) in Jakarta is important world news, and it is one of the top stories on the BBC World Television currently. The so-called barbarity and failure of Western banking is being talked about right now in Jakarta, and that is why I brought the WIEF up.

I don't want to single-out Islam for bashing nor imply that I did. Rather, I want to bash all religion.... To me, religion is a sad hang-over from the world's Dark Ages

I can't think of much good that has come out of religion, but I can think of much evil. The Middle East to-day stands as proof of the inherent evil of religion.

As for Sharia Law, I fear it, and I hate it.... And we need to discuss Sharia Law and what it would mean to our Western way of life. That is not Islam-bashing; that is a fair question.


Dude, the real world is more complex than political rhetoric, get out there and see it and you'll see, I'm not kidding. It amazes me that people think they can know so much about places they have never been and people they have never met (and with such certainty, I might add).

I think MUCH MORE highly of you than to judge you by the crap you put up today. SO why don't you put up stuff that is actually thought provoking.

(I read your posts, opinionated your are, stupid not, write with a purpose, or for a purpose, maybe you think you are with this, I personally think not)

MY 2C anyway.

Peace,

JT

jtabeb
03-08-09, 11:08 PM
Perhaps you are mocking those who know nothing about shariah law. Nonetheless, I feel the need to clarify that shariah is far more nuanced that what this post makes it out to be. Can you tell which offenses are considered punishable by mutilation and in which schools of law and under what particular circumstances? No? I thought not?

Punishment by mutilation is extremely rare in Muslims countries and has actually been banned many times in accordance with Shatiah law. The punitive legal systems of both Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are based in large part upon the rejection of traditional Shariah law.

Thank you!

Wahabism is so far out there, I consider it islam only in the same way that you would call David Koresh a Christian (very, VERY loosely!)

GRG55
03-08-09, 11:11 PM
The Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum (the WIEF) in Jakarta is important world news, and it is one of the top stories on the BBC World Television currently. The so-called barbarity and failure of Western banking is being talked about right now in Jakarta, and that is why I brought the WIEF up.

I don't want to single-out Islam for bashing nor imply that I did. Rather, I want to bash all religion.... To me, religion is a sad hang-over from the world's Dark Ages

I can't think of much good that has come out of religion, but I can think of much evil. The Middle East to-day stands as proof of the inherent evil of religion.

As for Sharia Law, I fear it, and I hate it.... And we need to discuss Sharia Law and what it would mean to our Western way of life. That is not Islam-bashing; that is a fair question.

Starving Steve: Just by coincidence I happen to be sitting here in the Middle East, jet-lagged and reading iTulip at 4:00 am local time. There is no doubt that this region and its dominant religion, Islam, is struggling mightily with the conflict between modernity and traditional interpretations. So much so that at times some defenders of this faith appear brittle or lacking in confidence, such is the fury of the reaction to the faintest of apparent criticisms or infringements. I will freely admit that I have on occasion, on this forum, pointed out some of the inevitable absurdities that have resulted from this conflict.

Nevertheless, I cannot help but note that you profess to "fear" and "hate" what Sharia law may "mean to our Westerm way of life" immediately after indicating you wish to "bash all religions".

Pardon me but societal values to not spring forth spontaneously from a vacuum. Unless one defines "our Western way of life" as shop, shop, shop for more, more, more [surely that is not what we are defending, is it?] any objective assessment of the dominant values of European and North American society will trace an irrefutable association with the teachings of Christianity. That you, as a teacher, do not seem to understand this is disconcerting to say the least. But not to worry...because you have lots of company.

"Our Western way of life" has become so fiercely secular that most have forgotten that the separation of church and state is an element of Christianity that is a complete anathema to Islam.


Matthew 22:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

So much for the allegation that "nothing good has come out of religion"...unless, of course, you believe that separating church and state is against the will of God [having witnessed both systems up close and personal, frankly I think the jury is still out on this isssue].

There is nothing more simultaneously amusing and saddening than a secular Western journalist [and Canada suffers no shortage of these, especially within the CBC], who has absolutely no clue about the profound influence of Christianity on his own society, trying to explain to a western audience any aspect of an Islamic society, where everyday life is governed by the religion. The very concept is so alien to such observers, and they are so incapable of putting it in context, that the task becomes immediately hopeless...essentially the faithless trying to explain a deeply held faith.

Faith, unfortunately, is an extraordinarily emotional topic. Some will regard this post with disgust, others will object vehemently, and some may even consider it blasphemous. But unless we are prepared to acknowledge the role that faith has played in creating the varied societal values we live by today, there will be no understanding between peoples.

[Although my own faith is monotheastic, I am neither Christian nor Muslim.]

metalman
03-08-09, 11:23 PM
Starving Steve: Just by coincidence I happen to by sitting here in the Middle East, jet-lagged and reading iTulip at 4:00 am. There is no doubt that this region and its dominant religion, Islam, is struggling mightily with the conflict between modernity and traditional interpretations. So much so that at times some defenders of this faith appear brittle or lacking in confidence, such is the fury of the reaction to the faintest of apparent criticisms or infringements. I will freely admit that I have on occasion, on this forum, pointed out some of the inevitable absurdities that have resulted from this conflict.

Nevertheless, I cannot help but note that you profess to "fear" and "hate" what Sharia law may "mean to our Westerm way of life" immediately after indicating you wish to "bash all religions".

Pardon me but societal values to not spring forth spontaneously from a vacuum. Unless one defines "our Western way of life" as shop, shop, shop for more, more, more [surely that is not what we are defending, is it?] any objective assessment of the dominant values of European and North American society will trace an irrefutable association with the teachings of Christianity. That you, as a teacher, do not seem to understand this is disconcerting to say the least. But not to worry...because you have lots of company.

"Our Western way of life" has become so fiercely secular that most have forgotten that the separation of church and state is an element of Christianity that is a complete anathema to Islam.


Matthew 22:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

So much for the allegation that "nothing good has come out of religion"...unless, of course, you believe that separating church and state is against the will of God.

There is nothing more simultaneously amusing and saddening than a secular Western journalist [and Canada suffers no shortage of these, especially within the CBC], who has absolutely no clue about the profound influence of Christianity on his own society, trying to explain to a western audience any aspect of an Islamic society, where everyday life is governed by the religion. The very concept is so alien to such observers, and they are so incapable of putting it in context, that the task becomes immediately hopeless.

Faith, unfortunately, is an extraordinarily emotional topic. Some will regard this post with disgust, others will object vehemently, and some may even consider it blasphemous. But unless we are prepared to acknowledge the role that faith has played in creating the varied societal values we live by today, there will be no understanding between peoples.

[Although my own faith is monotheastic, I am neither Christian nor Muslim.]

great post. the usa uniquely mixes the virtues of many religions... but, yes, Christianity is dominant.

the way i see it, humans are apes beneath. without religion we'd express less of our higher selves. religions are great. churches... are another matter.

Contemptuous
03-08-09, 11:26 PM
Nonetheless, I feel the need to clarify that shariah is far more nuanced that what this post makes it out to be. Punishment by mutilation is extremely rare in Muslims countries and has actually been banned many times in accordance with Shariah law. The punitive legal systems of both Saudi Arabia and the Taliban are based in large part upon the rejection of traditional Shariah law.

Right you are Basil. Here's a nice example of "nuance" for you. Occurs in a stadium, with thousands of people coming to witness the spectacle. :D I appreciate that you've taken some time out of your life to become scholarly on certain aspects of this topic, but your "sophistication" is leading you to wander off into a zone which I personally would give a very wide berth to. Put your nuances aside mate. It's a lot more widespread than you wish to portray. The image below was from 1998. You really think this practice has abated in 2009? Hang it up. I have little use for the "nuance" you extol. What do you suppose is drawing the BIG CROWD here, eh?


http://www.rawa.org/handcut.jpg




<CENTER>

1998 Taliban amputation of right hand at stadium while thousands watch the spectacle

</CENTER>

ASH
03-08-09, 11:29 PM
from the GATA folks, interesting interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83UUkiLyd0U&feature=channel_page

is it really this bad and this close?

If JP Morgan fails, who will the conspiracy theorists nominate to be pulling the strings? I thought this whole thing was a fake crisis, engineered by JP Morgan to give them an opportunity to buy up everyone else at a discount?

metalman
03-08-09, 11:30 PM
yep... if i saw that i'd get 'the message' in a hurry!

pwcmba
03-08-09, 11:40 PM
The hunter becomes the hunted?

Perhaps the conspiritor becomes victim of it's own conspiracy?:eek:

Basil
03-08-09, 11:44 PM
Right you are Basil. Here's a nice example of "nuance" for you. Occurs in a stadium, with thousands of people coming to witness the spectacle. :D I appreciate that you've taken some time out of your life to become scholarly on certain aspects of this topic, but your "sophistication" is leading you to wander off into a zone which I personally would give a very wide berth to. Put your nuances aside mate. It's a lot more widespread than you wish to portray. The image below was from 1998. You really think this practice has abated in 2009? Hang it up. I have little use for the "nuance" you extol. What do you suppose is drawing the BIG CROWD here, eh?


http://www.rawa.org/handcut.jpg




<center>

1998 Taliban amputation of right hand at stadium while thousands watch the spectacle

</center>

Perhaps you should have read my post. My point was that the Wahhabi creed followed by Saudi Arabia and the Taliban is not based upon traditional Shariah Law. In no way did I deny that acts like the one of which you have provided a photograph happen. But to use such photographs to pass judgment upon an entire civilization is illogical and irresponsible. It is like posting the Rodney King video to argue that cops in the US routinely beat African Americans. Whereas the video demonstrates that it happens and that it is a problem, but does not provide the broader context.


We can find some rather gruesome photographs of many activities conducted in the united states that most of us are aware do not represent the ethics or the ethos of the united states. But we know how to contextualize such photographs. In this instance, it is clear that you do not know how to contextualize a gruesome act that most likely has no grounding in Shariah law. Do you know the difference between Shariah and fiqh?

An excellent example of this is Bin Laden's so called fatwas that do not meet the traditional criteria for a fatwa. This is the way the Taliban operates. It would be as if I were to make legal declarations because I had read the constitution and many supreme court opinions. I still would not be justified in making the judgments I make and my judgments would in no way represent the US legal system, no matter how cases I chose to cite.

Contemptuous
03-08-09, 11:51 PM
Basil -

If I took an hour out of my evening, I could post 50 (fifty) different photos and video clips on this thread of similar and even far worse, illustrating many more instances of such a "misinterpretation of Sharia justice" - and notably - attributed to several different countries - for you to gaze at and emotionally digest. I won't bother, partly out of respect for people's sensibilities, and partly because I know full well you are aware that there is such a quantity of documentation out there, which is easily accessible.

According to you the sum total of this rather large body of documentation is just a mischieveous "mis-direction".

Your protestations that these are "mis-representative" sound like BS to this reader. They may be rare, but they are "countenanced". Why does one not read outspoken denunciations of such practices within the ME press? Are the press fearful of posting apostate opinions there perhaps? Sorry, I must be incorrigible and ignorant, mustn't I, although I've lived in a half dozen countries and traveled to about 30-40 during the course of my 53 years - this is an expression of cultural ignorance on my part?

LargoWinch
03-09-09, 12:00 AM
religions are great.

no, religions are just as true as aliens.

why is one group ridiculed while the other praised and accepted?

cjppjc
03-09-09, 12:07 AM
no, religions are just as true as aliens.

why is one group ridiculed while the other praised and accepted?


Does that mean you don't believe in aliens?

Because saying religions is not true is a little too easy. Too simple. If you want to say religions have lost their truth, and no longer understand what they teach. That may be closer to the truth.

Btw: Wasn't this thread about JPM?

Contemptuous
03-09-09, 12:10 AM
OK this thread has received the deathly ratings blow - "one star". Time to scuttle this unsavory subject - consign it to the trash bins of "political abyss" or to the iTulip incinerator. Or better yet, can't they just please erase it? Somebody, make the unpleasantness go away, puhleeese! We want to think only about "sanitary stuff". This is all just so ... "icky". :rolleyes:

ASH
03-09-09, 12:11 AM
The hunter becomes the hunted?

Perhaps the conspiritor becomes victim of it's own conspiracy?:eek:

It sure seems to me like the major banks are becoming victims of their own financial sophistry, which may indeed include market manipulation (as alleged in the video clip) as well as stupid leverage tricks and everything else we already know about. I just think that the system falling apart has the effect of exposing these games rather than promoting the interests of their practitioners. The banks were already on top of the world -- it never made sense to me that it would serve the interests of JP Morgan or any of the other big banks to upset the apple cart.

pwcmba
03-09-09, 12:18 AM
It makes no sense to me either but then again I am not a greedy sociopath!

pwcmba
03-09-09, 12:22 AM
I believe there will be a day in the future when you hear the phrase "remember Glass-Steagall" like one might hear today "remember the alamo"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act

"officially named the Banking Act of 1933, introduced the separation of bank types according to their business (commercial and investment banking), and it founded the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation for insuring bank deposits. Literature in economics usually refers to this simply as the Glass-Steagall Act, since it had a stronger impact on US banking regulation.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-7>[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act#cite_note-7)"</SUP>

LargoWinch
03-09-09, 12:48 AM
OK this thread has received the deathly ratings blow - "one star". Time to scuttle this unsavory subject - consign it to the trash bins of "political abyss" or to the iTulip incinerator. Or better yet, can't they just please erase it? Somebody, make the unpleasantness go away, puhleeese! We want to think only about "sanitary stuff". This is all just so ... "icky". :rolleyes:

lol

Luke, you have a keen sense of observation...

so true.

LargoWinch
03-09-09, 12:50 AM
Does that mean you don't believe in aliens?

Because saying religions is not true is a little too easy. Too simple. If you want to say religions have lost their truth, and no longer understand what they teach. That may be closer to the truth.

Btw: Wasn't this thread about JPM?

Maybe religions are too easy?

Or maybe its me? I like to keep things simple.

santafe2
03-09-09, 01:38 AM
from the GATA folks, interesting interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83UUkiLyd0U&feature=channel_page

is it really this bad and this close?

This brings back a lot of memories for me. During the really dark days of metals investing, mid-to-late 2000, when it didn't matter how confident you were long term, you were losing money. Everyone had a favorite gold hobgoblin. I subscribed to GATA and they were all over JPM and the Bank of England as deeply rooted conspirators. It passed as GATA analysis. They pounded this table - JPM was going under in 2001 when gold flew through the roof and crushed their short positions.

The odd thing for me was that while I was a metals investor and a GATA subscriber I was also managing a large software project at Chase in NYC and I had been for the last year. I'd worked with several other banks on similar projects but these people were not intimidated by us or our software. They spent their working lives making sure our algorithms interpreted their understanding of their business or they asked us to re-write them to fit their understanding. I've never worked in a more challenging environment.

As we know, gold moved up, JPM survived and we find ourselves at this juncture. I only worked with JPM for 3 years but I would not bet against them. GATA has always used the Don Quixote symbolism to tout their assumed David vs. Goliath battle. In truth the are simply tilting at windmills.

Starving Steve
03-09-09, 01:41 AM
Our Western values are not only seperation of church and state, but also tolerance, and leaving people alone to pretty much do whatever they want to do, eat whatever they want to eat, shop wherever they want, wear whatever they want to, say pretty much whatever they want, profess whatever they want, speak any language they want to speak, associate with whomever they want, believe whatever they want, and to travel and live wherever they want.

Yes, some of these are Christian values, but some of these values emerged in a struggle against the power of the Church (for example, against the Church of England and later against the Church in Massechusetts).

jtabeb
03-09-09, 01:51 AM
Basil -

If I took an hour out of my evening, I could post 50 (fifty) different photos and video clips on this thread of similar and even far worse, illustrating many more instances of such a "misinterpretation of Sharia justice" - and notably - attributed to several different countries - for you to gaze at and emotionally digest. I won't bother, partly out of respect for people's sensibilities, and partly because I know full well you are aware that there is such a quantity of documentation out there, which is easily accessible.

According to you the sum total of this rather large body of documentation is just a mischieveous "mis-direction".

Your protestations that these are "mis-representative" sound like BS to this reader. They may be rare, but they are "countenanced". Why does one not read outspoken denunciations of such practices within the ME press? Are the press fearful of posting apostate opinions there perhaps? Sorry, I must be incorrigible and ignorant, mustn't I, although I've lived in a half dozen countries and traveled to about 30-40 during the course of my 53 years - this is an expression of cultural ignorance on my part?

Ah yes, we could not possibly tell you anything that you DON'T KNOW, how could I forget...

Please put this in the "RANT'S and RAVE's" now that this discussion is truly in the gutter.

jtabeb
03-09-09, 01:54 AM
It makes no sense to me either but then again I am not a greedy sociopath!


Actually, I think there is a name for this phenomenon. Isn't it called "Poetic Justice".:)

santafe2
03-09-09, 02:09 AM
Starving Steve wrote "... I want to bash all religion.... To me, religion is a sad hang-over from the world's Dark Ages

I can't think of much good that has come out of religion, but I can think of much evil. The Middle East to-day stands as proof of the inherent evil of religion."

Christ was born into the Roman World - it was pagan and cruel. There was little or no compassion among the Romans for those who were deformed, weak or helpless. The Orthodox and catholic Church of Christ bore witness to Truth incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, and she saw the face of God in the poor, the lepers, the weak and defenceless. She founded orphanages, provided unmercenary physicians, fed the hungry, provided the very basis for Byzantine and Western law beginning with the Code of Justinian I, and through her monastics preserved the history and learning of the classical world through the Dark Ages.

Many atheists and skeptics wax loudly about the "horrors committed in the name of god", and the "power of science to combat religion and all other superstition", and Orthodox Christians do not deny the crimes committed in their name. But these same people refuse to see what an atheistic humanism has wrought through such monsters as Robespierre, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. (I don't include Hitler and the Nazis because they were pagan and dabbled in the occult.) To them Pol Pot is just an isolated abberation, while Jim Jones and the horror of Jonestown is proof that Christianity is false. But as Doestoyevsky said, "If there is no God, then anything is permissible".

At one time in my life I bought into this through willful ignorance. I was also sympathetic to atheistic thought for the very same reason as Aldous Huxley. But after an open and honest study of ecclesiastical history I changed my mind.

I will be glad to discuss this with anyone on Rant and Rave - the proper forum for a subject such as this. BUT, I don't want to assist in highjacking another thread here.

How do you find time to post here? You'd be better served ferreting out and drowning witches. In case I'm not being clear, this is the craziest post I've seen by a paid subscriber on iTulip. Seriously, find a psychologist or join AA if that's the issue. Please never assume you can pay a few hundred dollars and earn the right to post this nonsense here.

derelict54
03-09-09, 02:10 AM
Sad to see it that our society has to relearn the same mistakes over again and that in fact there were safeguards put in place to protect our system. Last time their were interest only mortgages was in the twenties..........But the rich bankers bought the politicians and placed their self interested advisors (Rubin, Graham, Summers, Geitner, Greenspan) in the cabinets of their bought politicians. Furthermore, Its sad that it takes 24 months after the crisis started for someone in remote power of our government to bring up Glass Steagall again. I mean really what the? How long does it really take to figure this out? (Oh wait and maybe the credit rating agencies shouldn't be for profit organizations, just a guess, but that's my opinion)

"Volcker Urges Dividing Investment, Commercial Banks"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aiDzZwiQSuiE&refer=us

And even Stiglitz shuts up the hen house at cnbc with some sense

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1051910745&play=1
Until someone kicks the Harvard & Chicago business school boys out of the economic positions in power, we are f'd. And somehow we have got to get to our legit representatives to let them know and kick out the corrupt ones that look to keep us down.

McCain had Graham, Obama Summers, what choice is that, and what kind of f'd up country are we?

Nothing like having commercial banks that are backed by the FDIC and the taxpayer backstop, betting on commodity futures, getting caught in currency short squeezes, naked shorting institutions to bankruptcy and then cashing in CDS contracts to boot. Then they get rewarded with taxpayer money through baliout bonuses or under the cover of further AIG CDS bets. We have created huge hedge funds that are badly dressed up as conservative banks vital to our economy?

The shadow banking system and now the regulated banking system in broad daylight is acting like a pack of rabid dogs running to anything that smells like blood and devouring it to the death.

In the shadow of senators offices and wall street back offices you see the sinister eyes, hear the howling, and notice the drops of blood, and you see the drooling mouths hovering over the carcass of our Forefathers Dream and the American Economy. This enemy on Capital Hill is on both sides of the aisle and is being controlled by the penthouses of wall street and the corner offices of corporate conglomerates. The common man and the just cause has no representation in this country anymore. While you were sleeping or arguing about abortion, gay rights, the public display of the 10 commandments, and other heated organized religion B.S. that should never be argued in a country that has seperation between church and state, the bankstas stole the money and soul of the American laborer.

santafe2
03-09-09, 02:45 AM
McCain had Graham, Obama Summers, what choice is that, and what kind of f'd up country are we?

We are a country of dreamers. We think it, we find a few friends who believe it and we do it. Sometimes we fail. Honestly, most of the time we fail, but we're not concerned with failure. We have our eye on the horizon and we Americans are raising our kids to ignore the present and work hard to succeed on the horizon. This is to my mind the best country in the world. I'm thankful to live here and I hope I've communicated that knowledge to my kids.

Summers and Graham are assholes. They don't matter. To equate them with the US is just dumb. They are, as you say, f'd up. The country is all of us working hard to get out of this and learning to lead again. Don't confuse the two.

tsetsefly
03-09-09, 04:42 AM
I could not watch the interview because my computer has a hard time with videos.

Less than $100 million dollars per day of short selling is destroying all of the major companies in America. This is what the CFO of GE had to say last week. Why does the U.S. government allow this?

Perhaps, if we had different leadership than Bernanke heading the Fed, things would be different. The Fed would buy against the short-sellers at 10AM E.S.T. on Monday morning --- the usual time when the short-sellers move in--- and put them out-of-business.

Why did Obama keep Bernanke at the Fed? Bernanke is Bush's man.
Everything Bernanke has done at the Fed seems to be a colossal failure. Why keep him?

The obvious move for the Fed is to move against the short-sellers in New York. Why isn't this obvious to Bernanke? :confused:

Short sellers are a scape goat, short selling was banned for a month and the market still got killed. Plus you can bet the PPT is working "against"short sellers...

D-Mack
03-09-09, 05:08 AM
This brings back a lot of memories for me. During the really dark days of metals investing, mid-to-late 2000, when it didn't matter how confident you were long term, you were losing money. Everyone had a favorite gold hobgoblin. I subscribed to GATA and they were all over JPM and the Bank of England as deeply rooted conspirators. It passed as GATA analysis. They pounded this table - JPM was going under in 2001 when gold flew through the roof and crushed their short positions.

The odd thing for me was that while I was a metals investor and a GATA subscriber I was also managing a large software project at Chase in NYC and I had been for the last year. I'd worked with several other banks on similar projects but these people were not intimidated by us or our software. They spent their working lives making sure our algorithms interpreted their understanding of their business or they asked us to re-write them to fit their understanding. I've never worked in a more challenging environment.

As we know, gold moved up, JPM survived and we find ourselves at this juncture. I only worked with JPM for 3 years but I would not bet against them. GATA has always used the Don Quixote symbolism to tout their assumed David vs. Goliath battle. In truth the are simply tilting at windmills.

Some say it's the Fed ....

Where does GATA come up with 200 trillion in derivatives? If I remember it was around 80 trillions last time I heard.

And why aren't they on the list of AIG customers, or where they left out from the leaked partial list ?




Who got AIG's bailout billions?

By Toni Reinhold

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Where, oh where, did AIG's bailout billions go? That question may reverberate even louder through the halls of government in the week ahead now that a partial list of beneficiaries has been published.

The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday that about $50 billion of more than $173 billion that the U.S. government has poured into American International Group Inc since last fall has been paid to at least two dozen U.S. and foreign financial institutions.

The newspaper reported that some of the banks paid by AIG since the insurer started getting taxpayer funds were: Goldman Sachs Group Inc, Deutsche Bank AG, Merrill Lynch, Societe Generale, Calyon, Barclays Plc, Rabobank, Danske, HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland, Banco Santander, Morgan Stanley, Wachovia, Bank of America, and Lloyds Banking Group.

...
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE52624P20090308

Spartacus
03-09-09, 05:37 AM
The banks were already on top of the world -- it never made sense to me that it would serve the interests of JP Morgan or

True enough - "JP morgan" may not have been motivated to manipulate, even if that would be a profitable trade, especially at 20x leverage ...


any of the other big banks to upset the apple cart.

But what if the bank as a whole is nothing but a collection of Nick Leesons or worse, most of whom have not blown up as badly as Leeson only because they're lucky, not because they're smarter or more cautious ...

if you're running one lowly division and you want an extra 2 yachts to water-ski behind or you're a trader who wants a bigger office and one extra yacht, you have lots of motivation for that $10 million bonus.

pksubs
03-09-09, 06:17 AM
Please put this in the "RANT'S and RAVE's" now that this discussion is truly in the gutter.

Salvaging something from the gutter: for those interested in a wonderful and thought provoking travelogue of Turkey/Egypt/Middle East, do read : "From the Holy Mountain" by William Dalrymple. I can't claim to be an expert in any religion, but I read pretty much anything (including this thread :D). I was in a resort which had a bookstore with maybe three and a half books in it, so ended up choosing this one. Dalrymple is erudite, but he puts real miles on his boots, and keeps an open mind..

Contemptuous
03-09-09, 07:02 AM
In case an impression communicated itself from my prior critical comments that I am culturally hidebound, my own mind is wide open to other cultures.

I have no "narrow, bigoted thoughts" on the topic of intentional mutilation of society's "criminals". My internal moral compass is clear as a pool of still water. For example, I "know" what is inherently wrong in a judicial system, where the inflicting of such punishments are presented to a wide audience for what is blatantly evident to be a staged spectacle reminiscent of those staged by the ancient Romans for blood sport, or by Medieval societies in lieu of circuses. Here you have many small cues as to what the real venue is.

Instead of a cleanly cutting surgical blade cutting off a limb as the punishment for a "criminal", a short, blunt knife is used - as though expressly to inflict maximum shock to the amputee. This kind of thing has a name written across it's countenance, at the human level.

It is a name I will not mention, but one that I will always, always, always find myself vehemently opposed to from the deepest most visceral feeling in my gut. It is the name of everything that is the opposite of compassion, and it's face is an ugly thing to behold. Anyone who wishes to apologise for it I will always walk past, without any regard. There is the real gutter for you - but it takes a willingness to look at it squarely.

People here want to affect personal or cultural affront at such comments? Maybe suggest that they indicate some subtle attribute such as "cultural bigotry" on my part? Compare meanwhile, what they may portray as their "injured cultural or religious sensibilities" to the shock - shock near to death itself, which such victims endure. One injury is trivial and largely composed of conceits. The other injury is real, leading to a severed limb - and that cry is a cry out for decency from the depths of all human intelligence.

Pick your side, and then live with it.


Salvaging something from the gutter: for those interested in a wonderful and thought provoking travelogue of Turkey/Egypt/Middle East, do read : "From the Holy Mountain" by William Dalrymple. I can't claim to be an expert in any religion, but I read pretty much anything (including this thread :D). I was in a resort which had a bookstore with maybe three and a half books in it, so ended up choosing this one. Dalrymple is erudite, but he puts real miles on his boots, and keeps an open mind..

Serge_Tomiko
03-09-09, 07:21 AM
Christ was born into the Roman World - it was pagan and cruel. There was little or no compassion among the Romans for those who were deformed, weak or helpless.

I really don't see how such a world was "cruel". The average person in the Roman Empire was strong, independent, and beautiful.

The deformed, weak, and helpless should be anomolies, the fate of whom is ultimately irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization. Today, the compassion you praise has created a race of deformed, weak, and pathetic creatures. I tour the United States, and the average American today looks more like a monster than a man.

A proud Roman of 2,000 years ago would undoubtedly weep for what has become of their culture.

GeraldRiggs
03-09-09, 07:26 AM
steve:
There is nothing wrong with short selling. If the banks had nothing to hid and were telling the truth about their financial condition, there would be no shorting of their stock.

pksubs
03-09-09, 07:58 AM
<snip>
People here want to affect personal or cultural affront at such comments? Maybe suggest that they indicate some subtle attribute such as "cultural bigotry" on my part? Compare meanwhile, what they may portray as their "injured cultural or religious sensibilities" to the shock - shock near to death itself, which such victims endure. One injury is trivial and largely composed of conceits. The other injury is real, leading to a severed limb - and that cry is a cry out for decency from the depths of all human intelligence.

Pick your side, and then live with it.

The trouble with responding to a thread like this, is simple statements can get taken for more than face value. Perhaps my 'salvaging something from the gutter' was offensive, but it was meant more as a convenient lead off from the previous post than anything else. However, I did find Dalrymple's book a wonderful read, and he does distill the experience of history and present in that torn land contextually into something a lay reader can grasp. Given what little I know of the area, I liked it, others may not. That's it, just a book reco..
Cheers and out!

Spartacus
03-09-09, 08:03 AM
More importantly, will one of our favourite childhood morality plays be replaced with a similar one with a different title, to wit:

"the GATA that cried JPM" ?

along with the

"the Bernanke and the Dike [1]" ?



[1] is it possible to plug a dike with a beard? [2]

[2] Who in their right mind footnotes a joke? [3]

[3] Who in their right mind reads the footnotes of a footnoted joke?

I license this post under a Creative Commons license - feel free to add your own footnotes.

D-Mack
03-09-09, 08:22 AM
I really don't see how such a world was "cruel". The average person in the Roman Empire was strong, independent, and beautiful.

The deformed, weak, and helpless should be anomolies, the fate of whom is ultimately irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization. Today, the compassion you praise has created a race of deformed, weak, and pathetic creatures. I tour the United States, and the average American today looks more like a monster than a man.

A proud Roman of 2,000 years ago would undoubtedly weep for what has become of their culture.

Roman Charity isn't bad, they certainly had no Janet Jackson complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Charity

But the Romans could certainly learn more about "panis et circenses" from us.


Why do think the average person in the Roman Empire was beautiful?

Rajiv
03-09-09, 08:40 AM
But why do think the average person in the Roman Empire was beautiful?

From the absolutely perfect Roman figurines of course -- I think we are getting a little bit Lake Wobegonized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon) here


where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average,"

Raz
03-09-09, 10:13 AM
How do you find time to post here? You'd be better served ferreting out and drowning witches. In case I'm not being clear, this is the craziest post I've seen by a paid subscriber on iTulip. Seriously, find a psychologist or join AA if that's the issue. Please never assume you can pay a few hundred dollars and earn the right to post this nonsense here.

Thank you for your arrogant and insulting reply. You have saved me from any further effort to inform your ignorant self - even on another forum. Perhaps you should read the New Testament - and some history not authored by God hating pseudo-intellectuals.
As for me I don't plan to cast any more pearls before swine.:mad:

jtabeb
03-09-09, 10:34 AM
In case an impression communicated itself from my prior critical comments that I am culturally hidebound, my own mind is wide open to other cultures.

I have no "narrow, bigoted thoughts" on the topic of intentional mutilation of society's "criminals". My internal moral compass is clear as a pool of still water. For example, I "know" what is inherently wrong in a judicial system, where the inflicting of such punishments are presented to a wide audience for what is blatantly evident to be a staged spectacle reminiscent of those staged by the ancient Romans for blood sport, or by Medieval societies in lieu of circuses. Here you have many small cues as to what the real venue is.

Instead of a cleanly cutting surgical blade cutting off a limb as the punishment for a "criminal", a short, blunt knife is used - as though expressly to inflict maximum shock to the amputee. This kind of thing has a name written across it's countenance, at the human level.

It is a name I will not mention, but one that I will always, always, always find myself vehemently opposed to from the deepest most visceral feeling in my gut. It is the name of everything that is the opposite of compassion, and it's face is an ugly thing to behold. Anyone who wishes to apologise for it I will always walk past, without any regard. There is the real gutter for you - but it takes a willingness to look at it squarely.

People here want to affect personal or cultural affront at such comments? Maybe suggest that they indicate some subtle attribute such as "cultural bigotry" on my part? Compare meanwhile, what they may portray as their "injured cultural or religious sensibilities" to the shock - shock near to death itself, which such victims endure. One injury is trivial and largely composed of conceits. The other injury is real, leading to a severed limb - and that cry is a cry out for decency from the depths of all human intelligence.

Pick your side, and then live with it.


BTW I agree with your statements in the above, this is a follow-up to your previous post, should have posted under that link. Yes what you see above is injustice, more so because you may See TCNs gutting parts removed, but NO Saudi Nationals.

Genius, I have no bone to pick with factual statements, to "get my feelings hurt" by such things would either make me
A. Dilusional and unable to face reality
And/or
B. In need of thicker skin

As I tell my kids, if someone hurts has hurt your feelings ask yourself if it was because they said something that was "true" or because they were presenting something that is "false as true". If it is the former, I tell them to toughen up. If it is the latter, I tell them to use their intellect to refute the flaws in the other persons representation of factual reality.

So Luke Sorry, but I'm going to have to follow my own advice on this matter.

The fact is Luke, that your "facts" are the same "facts" that I've heard when I learned the history of the Tuskegee Airman. Their unit had the best record in WWII of all pursuit/escourt squadrons.

That "facts" that were presented to discourage the participation of these airmen from flying was all broadly supported in the medical litrature of the time.

Such "facts" as blacks could not tolerated the G forces present in aviation, and that they were not capable of task-managment (think a life or death form of "multitasking") because of their STRUCTURALLY different mental capacities than whites.

These "facts" were all codified and known in the medical community and provided a nice backstop for those with a hidden-agenda to "proove" their case.

No matter how you try to couch your arguments in the cloak of "factual" information and to present a conclusion that broadly pertains to an entire region of the world or group of ethinic peoples or to a religious group, well there is a name for that.


"You know the Poles aren't the brightest folk" = I'm sure there are Poles that aren't smart, but really and truly, how can I claim this a the defining characteristic of the ENTIRE Polish population (my wife's Polish BTW, so she would seem to BUCK this trend as she has a higher IQ than I do and mine ain't bad)

"Irish are beggars" = I'm sure there is at least one beggar that is Irish, can you really apply that to ALL IRISHMENT

"Jews are stingy but smart" = I'm sure there are Stingy Jews and Smart Jews and even some smart, stingy Jews, does that mean that it is correct to classify Jews as "smart and stingy"

"Blacks tend to be lazy and not very productive" = ""... you get the idea

I know what these statements are when I see them. Do you recognize any of these "facts" Luke?

V/R
JT

c1ue
03-09-09, 10:52 AM
I've said before, and I say again: the relative peaceful coexistence in the United States may just as well be a product of high relative prosperity levels as it may be due to 'freedom and the American Way'.

I also will chime in that characterizing Muslims and Islam as being somehow fundamentally different (worse) than Christians is completely off the mark.

The Bible is the one which says "an eye for an eye" and "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

And if the Bible itself is not sufficient, one only has to look at some of the terrible things done unto others in the Christian era: Crusades, Reformation/anti-Reformation, Inquisition, etc etc.

The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.

It is that religion is an aggregation of authority, hence power, and can be used for all manner of good and evil purposes.

The violence we see coming out of Muslim regions - how much would that exist were these areas more prosperous in everyman terms?

Certainly from a realpolitik viewpoint, having your disaffected, disenfranchised, and angry youth redirect energies toward external foes is a much better proposition than having these same individual direct their attention towards wondering why a few families still control (and retain) all the vast wealth flowing in to the nation. These young men having nothing to lose but their lives only ratchets up the maximum pain levels.

Cui Bono? is a good rule.

Raz
03-09-09, 10:52 AM
I really don't see how such a world was "cruel". The average person in the Roman Empire was strong, independent, and beautiful.

The deformed, weak, and helpless should be anomolies, the fate of whom is ultimately irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization. Today, the compassion you praise has created a race of deformed, weak, and pathetic creatures. I tour the United States, and the average American today looks more like a monster than a man.

A proud Roman of 2,000 years ago would undoubtedly weep for what has become of their culture.

So the fate of the sick, weak, and helpless is irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization? I suppose a "successful" civilization is one with all the compassion of a beehive.

I fail to see what your post has to do with my attempt to show that all the worlds evils do not emminate from religion.

IF anyone has enough interest to post a question for me on Rant and Rave I will gladly offer facts and receive insults there, BUT NOT HERE. IT isn't fair to highjack someone elses forum topic.

cjppjc
03-09-09, 10:54 AM
Wow. Close this thread.


JPM remember?

jtabeb
03-09-09, 11:15 AM
The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.



I would say that there is Fundamental evil, and you have to fight it in what ever way you can, easier to do as an individual because you have can do it on a case by case basis.It is much harder to do as a nation because in any battle there is allways collateral damage and the innocent will pay as much as the guilty. I think that evil is observable and that you can have groups working collectively for evil purposes. But if you don't know why people or groups are acting in that way, you only have a small part of the picture.

We have morals and values that we share in this country, it's part of what makes us Americans. We as Americans sometimes confuse Morals and Values to counfound the meaning of both.



When we talk about "moral relativism" we attack values, in an attempt to have the moral high ground, but we fail and here's why.

If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that is stealing. For sure right?
If I'm Bernie Madoff and I steal 50 Billion because I'm a greedy pig, that is stealing too, right?

So the two must be the same right?

Wrong! But we are told that the two are the SAME, they are both stealing.

What this FAILS to address is what we VALUE as a society.

We value family and feel compassion for the less fortunate, and ask why could you not afford to buy food. All legitimate from a value perspective.

Similarly, we do not value Greed (so we say) and we especially consider a crime more harshly the greater the number of victems of a paticular crime and the more those people were hurt.

In the financial crisis I think we will again be faced with calls to avoid "moral retativism" and to IGNORE what we value as a society. We can't let that happen again.

santafe2
03-09-09, 11:17 AM
As for me I don't plan to cast any more pearls before swine.:mad:

For that, we'll all be thankful.

charliebrown
03-09-09, 11:52 AM
as a partially/professionally trained theologian (dropped out because of family health problems) GRG5 is "Closer to the kingdom of God" than he realizes.

Maybe after the our god of money dies and cannot be ressurrected, we will seek things that have an eternal purpose. Whether you believe in a higher power, or just the secular ideal of the betterment of man kind.

charliebrown
03-09-09, 11:54 AM
as a partially/professionally trained theologian (dropped out because of family health problems) GRG5 is "Closer to the kingdom of God" than he realizes.

Maybe after the our god of money dies and cannot be ressurrected, we will seek things that have an eternal purpose. Whether you believe in a higher power, or just the secular ideal of the betterment of man kind.

charliebrown
03-09-09, 12:02 PM
even though i am not santafe2's keeper, i apologize for this very cutting remark. keep the faith my friend. I move this post get back to JPM failure. I have a checking account, there, and I also agree that if JPM goes beneath the waves, then that could be the end of the banking system. Maybe that would be good, maybe we really need that cleansing breath so we can move on.

Raz
03-09-09, 12:33 PM
The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.



I would say that there is Fundamental evil, and you have to fight it in what ever way you can, easier to do as an individual because you have can do it on a case by case basis.It is much harder to do as a nation because in any battle there is allways collateral damage and the innocent will pay as much as the guilty. I think that evil is observable and that you can have groups working collectively for evil purposes. But if you don't know why people or groups are acting in that way, you only have a small part of the picture.

We have morals and values that we share in this country, it's part of what makes us Americans. We as Americans sometimes confuse Morals and Values to counfound the meaning of both.



When we talk about "moral relativism" we attack values, in an attempt to have the moral high ground, but we fail and here's why.

If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that is stealing. For sure right?
If I'm Bernie Madoff and I steal 50 Billion because I'm a greedy pig, that is stealing too, right?

So the two must be the same right?

Wrong! But we are told that the two are the SAME, they are both stealing.

What this FAILS to address is what we VALUE as a society.

We value family and feel compassion for the less fortunate, and ask why could you not afford to buy food. All legitimate from a value perspective.

Similarly, we do not value Greed (so we say) and we especially consider a crime more harshly the greater the number of victems of a paticular crime and the more those people were hurt.

In the financial crisis I think we will again be faced with calls to avoid "moral retativism" and to IGNORE what we value as a society. We can't let that happen again.

jtabeb,

Did you mean "calls to embrace moral relativism? I thought your post was excellent but I'm somewhat confused. Stealing IS stealing and can never be condoned under the law - even to feed one's family. But you are certainly correct that to apply the law identically in the hypothetical case mentioned by you would be a great denial of justice. Acts commited out of despair and desperation may be legally wrong yet to some limited degree the same could be morally justifiable. I suspect that is what you meant, and if so, then count me in complete agreement.

FRED
03-09-09, 12:38 PM
This is a finance and economics site and has been for over ten years. Politics cannot be avoided because the economy is political, but the conduct of political discussion will be polite and respectful.

Race and religion is simply too divisive to be argued here. Members are too likely to step on each other's toes, so we don't, except in Rant and Rave where anything goes, except what I deem to be really bad karma.

A thread about JP Morgan is a thread about JP Morgan. If a thread is hijacked into a discussion of religion, I or another moderator will either have to move it to Rant and Rave or delete the posts that have to do with religion. In this case this thread goes to Rant and Rave. Besides, there's already a thread on this JP Morgan and Citigroup to be nationalized (http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6203).

Wild Style
03-09-09, 12:44 PM
To discuss this very subject, i.e, the structure or model of Western versus Eastern finance, the Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum is meeting currently in Jakarta, Indonesia.

So, maybe you would rather use the Islamic model of finance where the lender takes a share of the debtor's business or property, instead of compound interest? Is that more "touchy-feely" to you?

Hopefully, you will be a good slave because the Islamic paradigm is about slavery and obedience to Sharia Law, and part of Sharia Law deals with finance.

Run afoul of Sharia Law, and you may be whipped or worse. Sometimes, they chop your arm or head off. "Peace and love." Enjoy!:D

By the way, welcome to itulip.Can you show us from Islamic sources were this is indeed the case in relation to Islamic finance.

jtabeb
03-09-09, 01:33 PM
jtabeb,

Did you mean "calls to embrace moral relativism? I thought your post was excellent but I'm somewhat confused. Stealing IS stealing and can never be condoned under the law - even to feed one's family. But you are certainly correct that to apply the law identically in the hypothetical case mentioned by you would be a great denial of justice. Acts commited out of despair and desperation may be legally wrong yet to some limited degree the same could be morally justifiable. I suspect that is what you meant, and if so, then count me in complete agreement.

NO I AM not calling for MORE moral relativism. But I do not want to sacrifice our values either and we as a society have had a problem with Turning a Value judgment into a moral judgment.

(Stealing is stealing, but YOU punish madoff differently, more harshly, than you punish the guy who stole bread to feed his family because the HARM inflicted and the number of people harmed is VASTLY different.)

A moral code tells us what is right and wrong.
Values allow us to determine a just remedy for an offense based on who/how many were harmed and how much harm was inflicted.

That is my point.

Raz
03-09-09, 02:06 PM
NO I AM not calling for MORE moral relativism. But I do not want to sacrifice our values either and we as a society have had a problem with Turning a Value judgment into a moral judgment.

(Stealing is stealing, but YOU punish madoff differently, more harshly, than you punish the guy who stole bread to feed his family because the HARM inflicted and the number of people harmed is VASTLY different.)

A moral code tells us what is right and wrong.
Values allow us to determine a just remedy for an offense based on who/how many were harmed and how much harm was inflicted.

That is my point.

I think we are using different terms to describe the same point of view.
Thanks for your clarifying comments; I agree with you.