View Full Version : This is all a good thing.
blazespinnaker
03-02-09, 11:22 PM
High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.
We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.
Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.
Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.
Master Shake
03-03-09, 04:41 AM
High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.
We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.
Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.
Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.
Obama's plan is to make us more like Europe. In case you haven't noticed, they're in even worse shape than we are. So far, he's showing himself to be more Bill Ayres than Bill Clinton, which I'm sure the folks at ACORN, his racist church, and the Dem base are ecstatic about. An energy policy based on global warming hysteria and designed to enrich Wall St. carbon traders is going to be a fiasco.
Yet, for all his lefty leanings, in the one area where the government does need to be more involved, Wall St. and the FIRE Economy, he's much more timid and relying on the geniuses that got us into this mess. Geithner is looking like a world-class disaster.
blazespinnaker
03-03-09, 05:27 AM
Geithner's policy is the same as Buffets. Basically, provide leverage to private investors who will have some skin in the game. It's really not a bad idea.
Geithner's big problem is that he's not a Rubin like TresSec .. He doesn't understand the spotlight very well.
I agree though, there is a danger that we could permanently move too much towards the European model. That would be bad not just for the US but for the world, as free markets are the engines of innovation.
However - the US has made these significant moves towards the left during these down years before and has recovered and moved back to the right. I'm sure it'll do it again just fine.
I think Obama has a plan and I personally think it's a pretty good one. The question is - can he ensure that his plan is executed? I wasn't too impressed when he put Biden on the job. However, Obama has shown he can do the runaround on his lieutenants whenever he pleases, so I'm not tooo worried.
I'm fairly optimistic about what is happening, to be honest. However, I am a little concerned that these social advances won't show up in the stock markets all that much.
The question is .. how will they show up? What ETF is there for fundamental improvements in infrastructure and middle class well being?
What I would though is a more pro-active approach to crime. We need smart street camera and DNA policies that balance privacy and security. This recession is going to make crime worse, and we need to find an appropriate response to that. I'm not sure Obama is on top of that particular problem.
Thailandnotes
03-03-09, 05:27 AM
Obama's plan is to make us more like Europe. In case you haven't noticed, they're in even worse shape than we are. So far, he's showing himself to be more Bill Ayres than Bill Clinton, which I'm sure the folks at ACORN, his racist church, and the Dem base are ecstatic about. An energy policy based on global warming hysteria and designed to enrich Wall St. carbon traders is going to be a fiasco.
why post this?
blazespinnaker
03-03-09, 05:33 AM
why post this?
Well, they're all reasonable critiques. His policies are pretty leftist.
However, I think there are times when left leaning policies are more appropriate than right leaning policies .. and vice versa. I think it may be fair to say, we are in such period of time and Obama understands this, or it's just his nature.
Latest polling says that the general american populace is comfortable with the choices he is making, and the GOP is completely rudderless at the moment. Why is that? I think it's more than just Rush Limbaugh ... I think Obama is on the right side of history.
The US is usually pretty right wing .. my guess is that most of US understands the situation and they feel his responses are generally correct, even though it's against the character of the US.
That being said, I hope there will be a way out of this once things settle down. Once infrastructure is dramatically improved, the hysteria goes away, I think free markets need to regain their previous influence.
The elections every 4 years is a tugawar in the balance of power. Sometimes we need to tug one way more than the other. I think Bush tugged a little too hard to the right and that contributed to this mess and why it's difficult a bit to stomach what Obama is doing. I think it's fair to say his huge tugging is necessary to get back to an appropriate balance.
As you can tell, I'm a centrist by nature.
Master Shake
03-03-09, 05:52 AM
Well, they're all reasonable critiques. His policies are pretty leftist.
However, I think there are times when left leaning policies are more appropriate than right leaning policies .. and vice versa. I think it may be fair to say, we are in such period of time and Obama understands this, or it's just his nature.
Latest polling says that the general american populace is comfortable with the choices he is making, and the GOP is completely rudderless at the moment. Why is that? I think it's more than just Rush Limbaugh ... I think Obama is on the right side of history.
The US is usually pretty right wing .. my guess is that most of US understands the situation and they feel his responses are generally correct, even though it's against the character of the US.
That being said, I hope there will be a way out of this once things settle down. Once infrastructure is dramatically improved, the hysteria goes away, I think free markets need to regain their previous influence.
The elections every 4 years is a tugawar in the balance of power. Sometimes we need to tug one way more than the other. I think Bush tugged a little too hard to the right and that contributed to this mess and why it's difficult a bit to stomach what Obama is doing. I think it's fair to say his huge tugging is necessary to get back to an appropriate balance.
As you can tell, I'm a centrist by nature.
Blaze,
In what areas did Bush tug us to the right, other than SCOTUS appointments and tax cuts? It certainly wasn't in the traditional conservative sense of smaller, less intrusive government or fiscal prudence.
And, as much as Obama and his ilk are anathema to me, I would have supported a REAL stimulus/infrastructure package, instead of the pork-laden, lefty-wish-list monstrosity that we got. I'm also on board with "nationalizing" the zombies and "clawing back" the bonuses and prosecuting the banksters responsible for this mess. All I'm seeing is business as usual.
Penguin
03-03-09, 06:12 AM
I am assuming that the good parts of his plan don't include the recycled 'bad bank' idea.
Q: How many guises can you invent to hide the fact that you are taking idiotic loans and their derivatives and palming them off on the taxpayer?
A: As many as it takes to get the job done.
I would have a lot more respect for the man and his policies if he just came out and stated in a loud and clear way that, yes, he is going to take this toxic sludge out of the banking industry and make the future taxpayer take all the risk and get all the cost. This hide the sausage routine every 3 weeks with the same old hidden tired lie is wearing thin.
On his other proposals I reserve judgment at this time. But the handling of the banking crisis is as ham handed and wrong headed as that of his predecessor.
Will
Thailandnotes
03-03-09, 06:13 AM
I ask again not to provoke,
but just
why post it?
or why post it here?
Bill Ayres, ACORN, racist church, global warming hysteria, Wall St. carbon traders, lefty leanings, world-class disaster.
rush limbaugh, jesse helms, racist church, intelligent design, katrina, heck of job brownie, world-class disaster.
why post it?
The political center in the US moves all the time, so right and left wing is relative to the center.
The US center has moved right for many years, making the US much more right wing, radically right wing in the opinion of many other civilized nations. The center in other countries move as well.
Most American cabbage heads simple move with the shifts. If they feel they are right wingers, then they become more radical. What used to be a right wing moderate is now a "liberal lefty" ect... same with democrat cabbage heads, many have become more "right wing" with the shift.
Not alive back then, but during the US baby boom century 1930-1970 the US center seemed much further left. Building interstate highway systems, sending people to the moon, building state university systems ect.. all socialist undertakings that required central planning and spending.
In relation to most modern countries, Obama is a moderate centrist, Bush was a radical right, Clinton a more moderate right winger. Even Pelosi would not be much of a "lefty" in many countries.
we_are_toast
03-03-09, 06:31 AM
High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.
We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.
Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.
Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.
You're right.
The conservative "government is the problem" lets all kneel at the altar of laissez faire, trickle down, free markets, that started with Reagan, has killed the worlds economy and now hundreds of millions will suffer.
Obama's reset of everything is the right way to go, except for this Summers/Geithner crazy effort to prop up the FIRE economy. When we see the Bank Holiday some Friday after the markets close, then we will know the President has a good understanding of the economic situation. I'm holding my breath, but I'm starting to turn blue.
This thread probably should be placed under rants.
You're right.
The conservative "government is the problem" lets all kneel at the altar of laissez faire, trickle down, free markets, that started with Reagan, has killed the worlds economy and now hundreds of millions will suffer.
Obama's reset of everything is the right way to go, except for this Summers/Geithner crazy effort to prop up the FIRE economy. When we see the Bank Holiday some Friday after the markets close, then we will know the President has a good understanding of the economic situation. I'm holding my breath, but I'm starting to turn blue.
This thread probably should be placed under rants.
You are a much more experienced observer of the American political scene than I, but watching from this distance I am coming to the conclusion that when it comes to the specifics of the banking/financial aspects of this crisis, he is doing his part to communicate to the voters, but he's seems also to be carefully and deliberately placing some distance between himself and his "economics lieutenants". For example I don't see any photo ops of him huddled with Summers and Geithner in the Oval Office, etc.
snakela
03-03-09, 07:09 AM
The question is .. how will they show up? What ETF is there for fundamental improvements in infrastructure and middle class well being?
What I would though is a more pro-active approach to crime. We need smart street camera and DNA policies that balance privacy and security. This recession is going to make crime worse, and we need to find an appropriate response to that. I'm not sure Obama is on top of that particular problem.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't think there will be any sort of middle-class improvement. Some pot-holes will be filled in but its starting to sound like all energy generation - and therefore consumption is about to get more expensive. The US infrastructure was built around the availability of cheap energy and its not going to get re-organized in a few quarters. I've never seen any info stating that the US needs more infrastructure where the benefits would out-weigh the costs (however those benefits are calculated). There will always be "not enough" of everything assuming its free but I have no reason to beleive scarce resources should be spent on even more roads and bridges.
Plus, we'll be re-organizing around another bad investment. Its clear that alt. energy is more expensive than the dino-based ones, especially now. Some people think that cost is worth decreasing AGW risk...which is a personal belief and not something country-wide investment decisions should be based on considering all the evidence both for and against AGW.
There's a ETN called GRN but I don't know much about it and personally don't want to invest in things based on nothing but rent-seeking. I'll believe in all this green technology stuff the day those technologies can stand on their own wihtout government subsidies. Until then its just a rigged market and we're always one politician away from having the rug pulled.
jimmygu3
03-03-09, 11:50 AM
I ask again not to provoke,
but just
why post it?
or why post it here?
rush limbaugh, jesse helms, racist chiurch, intelligent design, katrina, heck of job brownie, world-class disaster.
why post it?
I agree. Unnecessary political rhetoric. It sounded like Sean Hannity doing a Mad-Lib. ;)
RebbePete
03-03-09, 12:32 PM
From the Simon and Garfunkel song, "The Boxer:"
I am just a poor boy, though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
When I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy
In the company of strangers.....
In the quiet of the railway station, runnin' scared
Laying low, seeking out the poorer quarters, where the ragged people go
Looking for the places only they would know
Seeking only workman's wages, I come looking for a job, but I get no offers.....
Just a come-on from the whores on Seventh Avenue
I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there
Now the years are rolling by me, they are rockin' even me
I am older than I once was, and younger than I'll be, that's not unusual
No it isn't strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same
After changes we are more or less the same.........
Reading this thread reminds me of that, especially the parts I've bolded.
- Pete
High unemployment, doomed auto industry, etc.
We needed to reboot our society into one that consumes less, uses green energy, and has a more efficient education / health system.
Obama has a great plan. It would have been impossible to execute his plan if everyone was fully employed and life was free and easy.
Free markets are powerful tools, for sure, but they are just that. Tools. They are not an end in themselves.
NO this is not all a GOOD THING.
If you look at what is going on there is NO SYSTEMIC reform, NO CHECKS on the A$$HOLES that got us into this mess, and BEST OF ALL, we are USING TAX DOLLARS TO SUPPORT SAID A$$HOLEs AND AND AND MAKE THEM EVEN MORE POWERFUL.
Good thing, heck I allways thought proto-fascism was a BAD THING. My mistake!
blazespinnaker
03-04-09, 12:09 AM
Blaze,
In what areas did Bush tug us to the right, other than SCOTUS appointments and tax cuts? It certainly wasn't in the traditional conservative sense of smaller, less intrusive government or fiscal prudence.
And, as much as Obama and his ilk are anathema to me, I would have supported a REAL stimulus/infrastructure package, instead of the pork-laden, lefty-wish-list monstrosity that we got. I'm also on board with "nationalizing" the zombies and "clawing back" the bonuses and prosecuting the banksters responsible for this mess. All I'm seeing is business as usual.
I guess I tend to see the dem-rep struggle as just an ongoing class war. Sometimes it makes more sense to let the upper class win (when wealth is reasonably distributed) and sometimes it makes more sense to let the middle class win.
The fact is, the upper class is more 'efficient' and intelligent about wealth distribution from an innovation / productivity enhancement point of view. Unfortunately, if wealth becomes to unequal, a lot of dissatisfaction is created and society becomes unstable, so we have to start letting the middle/lower class win until they are appeased. Then we go back to letting the more capitalistic upper classes regain.
Bush pushed power to the upper classes. Wealth got squirreled away at the top, almost to the point of silliness. Now we are moving back to the middle class.
You're right.
The conservative "government is the problem" lets all kneel at the altar of laissez faire, trickle down, free markets, that started with Reagan, has killed the worlds economy and now hundreds of millions will suffer.
Better to kneel before the market than to kneel before the state.
we_are_toast
03-04-09, 08:01 AM
Better to kneel before the market than to kneel before the state.
Better to get off your knees and take your life back from the banksters.
I guess I tend to see the dem-rep struggle as just an ongoing class war. Sometimes it makes more sense to let the upper class win (when wealth is reasonably distributed) and sometimes it makes more sense to let the middle class win.
The fact is, the upper class is more 'efficient' and intelligent about wealth distribution from an innovation / productivity enhancement point of view.
Blaze,
I'm sorry, but I nominate the above post for the "I've gone temporarily insane" section.
Upper class is more efficient and intelligent about wealth distribution?
In riposte:
Example 1 - Paris Hilton - ALL of it
Example 2 - Dennis Kozlowski - he of Sardinia birthday party fame
Example 3 - ALL of the investment banksters
From my view - the 'upper class wealth distribution' is mostly good if you're a real estate agent, a caterer, an art dealer, or some other service industry.
Secondly the 'lower classes' simply don't have any wealth - so your assertion would seem to be contradicted each and every day of the past decade.
I'm sure you meant those who are productive business managers and what not, but lumping those who make/create with those who have and spend is a generalization too far.
BigLandbaron
03-04-09, 08:38 AM
It's a bad thing. Very bad. :mad:
Consider the DEMS as the wife, the REPS as the husband. It's just like going through a nasty divorce. You fight in court to end the marriage, but the wife creates delay after delay to postpone the inevitable while she max's out all of YOUR credit cards on a spending spree to buy everything she ever wanted (everything you said "NO!" to during the marriage in light of fiscal prudence) and then some. On top of that, she's going to get half your house, business, cars, 401k, other assets ... etc etc and you are powerless to do a thing about it. :eek:
You KNOW it's going to take you many years to recover from the unnecessary damage caused by the enraged wife's spending habit. You are forced to sit back by the courts and rule of law, essentially powerless, watching her spending oodles of your money that you don't have ... week after week, month after month and you know your life will never ever be the same again. Strong similarities to the struggle in Washington, we're generally screwed about no matter what you try to do and powerless to change the direction (for now). :mad:
This all may come down to torches and pitchforks in a couple of years, but it will be too late. USA may lose it's sovereignty, we may lose our personal rights and freedoms as guaranteed by OUR constitution, OUR dollar gets destroyed, and if you think 35% tax rate is bad ... just wait. Our founding fathers would hang most of todays politicians for treason (and not think twice about it) if they were still around. I can't believe socialism of such magnitude could ever be embraced by an elected President, Congres and the Senate.
If you want an efficient reorganization of Gov't (State & Fed) with a budget stripped of all fat and misallocated resources to happen so fast it makes your head spin ... let the big banks fail NOW!! :D
jimmygu3
03-04-09, 04:05 PM
It's a bad thing. Very bad. :mad:
Consider the DEMS as the wife, the REPS as the husband. It's just like going through a nasty divorce. You fight in court to end the marriage, but the wife creates delay after delay to postpone the inevitable while she max's out all of YOUR credit cards on a spending spree to buy everything she ever wanted (everything you said "NO!" to during the marriage in light of fiscal prudence) and then some. On top of that, she's going to get half your house, business, cars, 401k, other assets ... etc etc and you are powerless to do a thing about it. :eek:
You KNOW it's going to take you many years to recover from the unnecessary damage caused by the enraged wife's spending habit. You are forced to sit back by the courts and rule of law, essentially powerless, watching her spending oodles of your money that you don't have ... week after week, month after month and you know your life will never ever be the same again. Strong similarities to the struggle in Washington, we're generally screwed about no matter what you try to do and powerless to change the direction (for now). :mad:
This all may come down to torches and pitchforks in a couple of years, but it will be too late. USA may lose it's sovereignty, we may lose our personal rights and freedoms as guaranteed by OUR constitution, OUR dollar gets destroyed, and if you think 35% tax rate is bad ... just wait. Our founding fathers would hang most of todays politicians for treason (and not think twice about it) if they were still around. I can't believe socialism of such magnitude could ever be embraced by an elected President, Congres and the Senate.
If you want an efficient reorganization of Gov't (State & Fed) with a budget stripped of all fat and misallocated resources to happen so fast it makes your head spin ... let the big banks fail NOW!! :D
Clever, blaming everything on the Dems and calling them a bunch of selfish, irrational women, all in one shot. And the poor victim, the Republicans.
I'll liken it to a divorce of a couple I know. The husband (R) cheated on the wife, lost his job, blew lots of money and ended up in alcohol rehab. The wife (D) is trying to make the best of a terrible situation, take care of the kids, put food on the table and pay the rent. She keeps finding more and more irresponsible things he did all the time, like credit cards she didn't know about and bad long-term choices he made. There's no great solution. Every decision has positive and negative consequences that must be weighed.
Anyone can see that it is the excesses and irresponsibility of the LAST 8 YEARS that put us in this crisis, but people like you still manage to blame it all on the Democrats. Maybe this stimulus isn't the greatest, I don't know. But the Republicans had their chance and they blew it, now we're trying to clean up this mess.
Jimmy
Anyone can see that it is the excesses and irresponsibility of the LAST 8 YEARS that put us in this crisis, but people like you still manage to blame it all on the Democrats. Maybe this stimulus isn't the greatest, I don't know. But the Republicans had their chance and they blew it, now we're trying to clean up this mess.
Jimmy
Good luck with that.
Clever, blaming everything on the Dems and calling them a bunch of selfish, irrational women, all in one shot. And the poor victim, the Republicans.
I'll liken it to a divorce of a couple I know. The husband (R) cheated on the wife, lost his job, blew lots of money and ended up in alcohol rehab. The wife (D) is trying to make the best of a terrible situation, take care of the kids, put food on the table and pay the rent. She keeps finding more and more irresponsible things he did all the time, like credit cards she didn't know about and bad long-term choices he made. There's no great solution. Every decision has positive and negative consequences that must be weighed.
Anyone can see that it is the excesses and irresponsibility of the LAST 8 YEARS that put us in this crisis, but people like you still manage to blame it all on the Democrats. Maybe this stimulus isn't the greatest, I don't know. But the Republicans had their chance and they blew it, now we're trying to clean up this mess.
Jimmy
Good job calling this spade for what it is (a SPADE)!
BigLandbaron
03-04-09, 10:37 PM
I don't believe it would have made any difference if McCain was President instead of Obama ... we would be in this same spot and the DEMS would be attacking the Republicans for spending all the money. It's a no-win when your party is holding the hot potato.
If you like, swap DEMS and REPS in my previous email ... doesn't matter to me. I blame both parties for this mess ... each had a big hand in it since 1980. Sorry if it sounded half-cocked, I had just finished my 3rd coffee as I typed it this morning. I don't like the way things are going ... and I vented a bit. I figured someone would get strirred up by it.
I know you get my gyst, and are probably just as frustrated by it all as I am. I hope Ron Paul can win over some of the DEMS and REPS in the next few months ... to have a chance to put an end to this monetary madness.
I hope Ron Paul can win over some of the DEMS and REPS in the next few months ... to have a chance to put an end to this monetary madness.
Amen to that!
tsetsefly
03-05-09, 02:10 AM
Amen to that!
I second that.
I find the argument going on here a bit funny, where people see a difference between Democrats and Republicans, they are the same thing, especially when it comes to economics, they just want to grant the favors to different groups, they both spend as much and both have no idea on how to solve this crisis.
We need smart street camera and DNA policies that balance privacy and security.
Yeah, centrist. I get it. :D
Master Shake
03-05-09, 05:41 AM
Anyone can see that it is the excesses and irresponsibility of the LAST 8 YEARS that put us in this crisis, but people like you still manage to blame it all on the Democrats. Maybe this stimulus isn't the greatest, I don't know. But the Republicans had their chance and they blew it, now we're trying to clean up this mess.
Jimmy
If you think this crisis was caused in the last eight years, you aren't thinking straight. Glass-Stegall was passed by a Pub Congress and enthusiastically signed by Clinton. The Dems have been larger recipients of FIRE economy political donations than the Pubs, but they have both been bought off. Both share equally in the blame. Obama is every bit an unqualified dilletant as Bush, but with much better rhetorical skills. The difference is that while Bush actually tried to govern as a centrist, due to his miniscule margin of victory, Obama really thinks he has a mandate to govern as if he were still an ACORN community organizer.
Both your analogy and the original were off: the wife is a vindictive, scheming harpy, and the husband a boorish drunk with no spine. I don't think it's good now that the wife has the upper hand.
thedanimal
03-05-09, 08:31 AM
The difference is that while Bush actually tried to govern as a centrist, due to his miniscule margin of victory, Obama really thinks he has a mandate to govern as if he were still an ACORN community organizer.
You have an interesting world view.
You have an interesting world view.
Fuck the political inbashing, it's just a god damned waste of time. It's policies we need, and there is a lot of policy perscriptions from BOTH parties that are necessary for a sustainable recovery.
(The Rep stimulus provision of a payroll tax holiday would have done more to aid the lower and middle class than most of the provisions of the stimulus bill as passed).
Policy, not politics.
Politics is a stupid power play game and will not fix this, policy MIGHT.
(Disclosure I gave $200 to Obama and $400 to RP, voted for Obama since RP was not he nominee, would have voted for DK, if he were not so inept in the public lime-light).
Due to all of the ranting and raving and the two star rating.
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