Hand gun

[Jay]

Well don't know if I lost my mind, that is up for debate, but tomorrow I am buying my first handgun, 2PM. Suggestions?

[Andreuccio]

Well don't know if I lost my mind, that is up for debate, but tomorrow I am buying my first handgun, 2PM. Suggestions?

I suggest you try a bunch out before you invest several hundred dollars. At the firing range I go to they have many different brands and models you can rent, so you can get a feel for some of them. Alternately, you might get friends, or friends of friends, to let you try their guns out.

My understanding is the best three brands are Glock, HK, and Sig Sauer, with the Glock being the least expensive and the Sig the most expensive between them. You need to decide what caliber ammo you want to use. Also, do you want a full size gun or something less conspicuous? I chose the HK 9mm P2000. I wanted a compact size, and the HK fit my hand much better than the Glocks. The Sigs were more than I wanted to spend. I chose 9mm because, although it has less potential stopping power than larger caliber rounds, you can fit more rounds into a clip, and the rounds are much less expensive, which is a consideration if you're going to be doing much practicing.

If there's a firing range near you, they undoubtedly have firearms instruction offered. Why don't you get a few lessons under your belt so you have a better idea what you want and what works for you before you make a decision?

[c1ue]

If you're looking to protect yourself from the ravening, post collapse hordes, I suggest the .357 magnum revolver.

Penetration is useful, and the .357 will not be deterred by most forms of armor. The gun itself is also very low maintenance. Stainless steel is good.

The .357 also is nice because you can shoot .38 specials out of it, cheaper for when you don't need the big magnum force bullets.

The glocks, sig sauers, berettas, etc are all high capacity autoloaders, but can jam much more easily and are not repairable except by specialists.

If you're going to go for that high tech crap, an AR 15 is much better.

In terms of ammo, the .357 is pretty expensive, but you'll find that there isn't really such a thing a 'cheap ammo' for large caliber anyway.

Alternatively if you can get a P90, these would pretty much keep off the hordes with ease :)

http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm

But the best choice? http://www.lakesideguns.com/

.22 full autofire belt fed.
Cheap ammo.
Expensive gun though.

[strittmatter]

This is a Ruger SP101 .357 revolver. I bought it from my local chief of police a couple of years ago. His wife had carried it around in her purse but he decided to get her something different. He also had a Glock at the time, offered it to me for about 40 cents on the dollar, I wish I'd snagged it too.

This .357 is a compact, tight and accurate little unit. What's fun is loading it with shot-shell bullets (mini shotgun shells that spray out mini bb's) for snakes, turtles, bankers & crap. Getting blasted with a shot-shell round would very unlikely kill me, but it would be a lasting "impression" no doubt and I would have to strongly consider changing my handle to Therealmetalman.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Butch_SizeMatters/RugerSP101.jpg

[GRG55]

I think I'm going to stop crossing the border...

[Sharky]

Colt Combat Commander .45. Super-reliable, excellent mechanics and redundant safety features -- although, as mentioned in an earlier post, it's definitely better to try out a bunch of different brands first at the range if you can.

In self-defense, stopping power trumps the number of rounds every time. Someone hit with a 9mm could stand and move for 30 seconds or longer. A lot can happen in 30 seconds.

Since you're buying a pistol, I hope you've spent some time with rifles already to build your gun safety skills. Most first-time pistol owners I know tend to be incredibly unsafe with the way they handle their guns.

[sn1p3r]

Glock in 40....possibly springfield XD in 40 but good luck finding mags. also if you are buying now be sure to get several mags and plenty of ammo since they are VERY likely to continue to go up in price.

[we_are_toast]

c1ue, strittmatter you just made my day.

I had exactly the same question about 9 months ago. After a great deal of research and asking a whole bunch of people, I ended up with the Ruger SP101 .357 revolver. I got a 5" barrel for the scare factor.

The truth is, there is almost NO chance you will ever need it for defensive purposes, so it's a big insurance policy that you can use to have a little fun target practicing. I buy 38+P ammo at WalMart for a very good price.

But best of all, the idea of a liberal with a handgun just scares the hell out of my redneck Wyoming friends! :D

[dbarberic]

Funny that you started this thread....

My wife and I have been talking about buying a pistol too, which has been very strange for us. We're not anti-gun, but we are not really gun people either. My wife was deathly afraid of even having a gun in the house, but she has warmed up to the idea and wants to take the NRA pistol certification course.

I guess its a sign of how fearful we are that things will get completely out of control.

[Andreuccio]

Since you're buying a pistol, I hope you've spent some time with rifles already to build your gun safety skills. Most first-time pistol owners I know tend to be incredibly unsafe with the way they handle their guns.

Agree totally with the safety issue. Another great reason to take at least a couple of hours of lessons if you've never handled a weapon before. Pretty counter-productive to buy a weapon for self-defense and then accidentally use it for self-offense. :(

[sn1p3r]

Don't forget a pistol is only good for fighting your way back to your rifle, which you shouldn't have left in the first place.

If you want true security and freedom get a battle rifle.

http://www.amazon.com/Bostons-Gun-Bible-Boston-Party/product-reviews/1888766069

:D

[strittmatter]

Since you're buying a pistol, I hope you've spent some time with rifles already to build your gun safety skills. Most first-time pistol owners I know tend to be incredibly unsafe with the way they handle their guns.

He's right.

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090205/LOCAL07/302059910/1002/LOCAL

[Andreuccio]

In self-defense, stopping power trumps the number of rounds every time. Someone hit with a 9mm could stand and move for 30 seconds or longer. A lot can happen in 30 seconds.



If you're looking to protect yourself from the ravening, post collapse hordes, I suggest the .357 magnum revolver.

Penetration is useful, and the .357 will not be deterred by most forms of armor. The gun itself is also very low maintenance. Stainless steel is good.

The .357 also is nice because you can shoot .38 specials out of it, cheaper for when you don't need the big magnum force bullets.

The glocks, sig sauers, berettas, etc are all high capacity autoloaders, but can jam much more easily and are not repairable except by specialists.

If you're going to go for that high tech crap, an AR 15 is much better.



I'm no expert, but my instructor is. His take: while the larger caliber do have more stopping power, 90% of stopping power is shot placement, not round size. A well placed shot with a 9mm is plenty effective.

I just reread his email to me on weapons selection. A couple of quick points: an advantage of 9mm is that, due to velocity and small frontal area, it penetrates the best of the different sized rounds. As to the .357, he says it is "quite a bit more powerful" (emphasis his), but that that's not always good. The increased recoil makes it much more difficult to handle, decreasing shot accuracy as well as the ability to engage multiple targets.

I also wouldn't discount number of rounds so quickly, either. It just depends what kind of situation you're in.

One quick anecdote he related to me. He was at a tournament with 10 to 15 of the top shooters in the world. (He's friends with one of them.) They were sitting down afterwards talking, and the question came up about what they each used for their personal carry weapon. All but one of them used Glocks.


Jay, if you want, PM me with your email address and I'll forward his entire email regarding gun selection to you. There's a lot of good info in it.

Okay, I just got off the phone with him. I wanted to get his permission to forward the email. He said if he were to choose a personal carry weapon now, it would be the Glock 23, which is a compact .40. He said it was the best compromise of stopping power, limited recoil, and rounds in the magazine. As I said before, I probably would have chosen a Glock, too, but in the compact size it actually hurt my hand to fire it. I've got a big hand and it just didn't fit quite right. The HK just felt a lot better.

[Andreuccio]

I think I'm going to stop crossing the border...

You've been coming over here for, what, decades, and you just figured out now that we're crazy? :D

[sn1p3r]

Smart man. Glock .40 is trusted by 10s of 1000s of pros everyday.

Add the Hogue rubber grip and should fit just fine (I have large hands also).

http://www.coolcopgear.com/Hogue/glock.htm

These are available all over the place for about $10.

Also at your earliest convenience, add one of these because the next thing you need when you wake up in the middle of the night is a light...these are 50% off now.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-tlr1-weaponlight.html

:cool:

[Andreuccio]

Smart man. Glock .40 is trusted by 10s of 1000s of pros everyday.

Add the Hogue rubber grip and should fit just fine (I have large hands also).

http://www.coolcopgear.com/Hogue/glock.htm

These are available all over the place for about $10.

Also at your earliest convenience, add one of these because the next thing you need when you wake up in the middle of the night is a light...these are 50% off now.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-tlr1-weaponlight.html

:cool:

Cool light. I was going to recommend night sights for sure. Don't know much about lights, but it looks interesting.

[strittmatter]

that's the itulip gunzoramma.................

so come on down...........bring the young'uns...........

and remember.............

if we can't kill it............it's immortal

[metalman]

What's fun is loading it with shot-shell bullets (mini shotgun shells that spray out mini bb's) for snakes, turtles, bankers & crap. Getting blasted with a shot-shell round would very unlikely kill me, but it would be a lasting "impression" no doubt and I would have to strongly consider changing my handle to Therealmetalman.



never been attacked by a turtle but i suppose a spray of bb's will set the vicious creature back!

metalman doesn't like guns... however... as metalman's mind operates... as much as he can manage it... on probabilities... always trying to adjust risk deterrence to keep it proportionate to the risk level, to the best of his ability to assess it with accuracy and realistically... three years ago reluctantly accepted the risk and unpleasantness of owning machines designed to kill people... as outwieghed by the risk that he may some terrible day find himself and/or his loved ones in a situtation where a gun is the only effective deterrent.

the risk... millions of guns today in the hands of criminals and the mentally ill... and economic depression will not reduce the supply of criminals and crazies... the threat will grow.

with heavy heart... sickened by the though he might ever have to shoot another human being and ruin his own life doing that, but prefers the option to losing his own life... metalman carries when moving his metal about or traveling to high security risk locations, like shopping malls (where the crazies go crazy)...

http://i39.tinypic.com/anltlj.jpg

metalman has in his home for uninvited guests...

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811011_large.jpg

was testing the above on a camping trip in the middle of nowhere. the range i chose was backdstopped by a high wooded hill. i set up my paper target 50 yeards away. after pinchig off about 6 rounds at my target when a tree behind it fell down. walked over to investigate, i find a pine tree (soft wood) about 20 ft high broken 1/3 way up where the trunk was about 9 in. in diamerter. the tree was exactly behind the bullseye of my target and in front of the hill... i'd accidently cut it down. wups! you don't want to take a bullet from this gun. it's also the loundest thing i've ever heard.

[aaron]

I am in the process of buying a handgun too. I discussed it with friends with military training. They all agreed that a 45 was the way to go... the 9 mm are too small. This is considering that I am not very experienced and will likely not be able to aim several rounds accurately... a 45 will knock the crap out of an attacker.

[strittmatter]

never been attacked by a turtle but i suppose a spray of bb's will set the vicious creature back!

Fine. I shall strive to peacefully coexist with the tortuga, if you will forgo your merciless slaughter of the innocent tree, with such the brutal un-repentent manner mind you!

[metalman]

Fine. I shall strive to peacefully coexist with the tortuga, if you will forgo your merciless slaughter of the innocent tree, with such the brutal un-repentent manner mind you!

the tree's agonizing screams haunt me to this day. yet a tree cut in half by accident grows back... no so a targeted turtle. but point taken.

you'll be glad to know that since my mistake nothing else has so suffered at my hand... well... except a pumpkin, but its days were numbered anyway.

[Andreuccio]

I am in the process of buying a handgun too. I discussed it with friends with military training. They all agreed that a 45 was the way to go... the 9 mm are too small. This is considering that I am not very experienced and will likely not be able to aim several rounds accurately... a 45 will knock the crap out of an attacker.

Whatever you decide to get, get yourself some training. Missing's real easy, even with one shot, if you don't know what you're doing.

[BadJuju]

was testing the above on a camping trip in the middle of nowhere. the range i chose was backdstopped by a high wooded hill. i set up my paper target 50 yeards away. after pinchig off about 6 rounds at my target when a tree behind it fell down. walked over to investigate, i find a pine tree (soft wood) about 20 ft high broken 1/3 way up where the trunk was about 9 in. in diamerter. the tree was exactly behind the bullseye of my target and in front of the hill... i'd accidently cut it down. wups! you don't want to take a bullet from this gun. it's also the loundest thing i've ever heard.

It is pretty weak compared to the AK-47 that I have, but your gun is more accurate. :mad: Mine would take down a damn Giant Sequoia. :D

[metalman]

It is pretty weak compared to the AK-47 that I have, but your gun is more accurate. :mad: Mine would take down a damn Giant Sequoia. :D

ak47... the gun of choice for revolutionaries the world over. my gun's made in maine. so there.

[ax]

I suggest you try a bunch out before you invest several hundred dollars. At the firing range I go to they have many different brands and models you can rent, so you can get a feel for some of them. Alternately, you might get friends, or friends of friends, to let you try their guns out.

My understanding is the best three brands are Glock, HK, and Sig Sauer, with the Glock being the least expensive and the Sig the most expensive between them. You need to decide what caliber ammo you want to use. Also, do you want a full size gun or something less conspicuous? I chose the HK 9mm P2000. I wanted a compact size, and the HK fit my hand much better than the Glocks. The Sigs were more than I wanted to spend. I chose 9mm because, although it has less potential stopping power than larger caliber rounds, you can fit more rounds into a clip, and the rounds are much less expensive, which is a consideration if you're going to be doing much practicing.

If there's a firing range near you, they undoubtedly have firearms instruction offered. Why don't you get a few lessons under your belt so you have a better idea what you want and what works for you before you make a decision?

Andreuccio, I second your choice. I used to own the same gun and it was easy to use as well as accurate. Man I miss that gun....

[strittmatter]

the tree's agonizing screams haunt me to this day. yet a tree cut in half by accident grows back... no so a targeted turtle. but point taken.

you'll be glad to know that since my mistake nothing else has so suffered at my hand... well... except a pumpkin, but its days were numbered anyway.

At any rate, with the societal/economy gauges continuing to pop their glass cases, I can see this gun thing resulting in disasterous concequences, and not just for newbie untrained gun owners.

A wise man once said, "No matter the situation, act as if your five year old son was watching you." I have a five year old son. The thought of burning the image into his head of me having to defend us via shooting at another person, or him seeing me on the recieving end of that scenerio?

Let's pray not.

[Andreuccio]

At any rate, with the societal/economy gauges continuing to pop their glass cases, I can see this gun thing resulting in disasterous concequences, and not just for newbie untrained gun owners.

A wise man once said, "No matter the situation, act as if your five year old son was watching you." I have a five year old son. The thought of burning the image into his head of me having to defend us via shooting at another person, or him seeing me on the recieving end of that scenerio?

Let's pray not.

Let's pray not, indeed.

Still, better to have the image of you defending your family burned into his head than the image of something unspeakable happening to your defenseless family. Let's hope neither one comes to pass.

[Andreuccio]

At any rate, with the societal/economy gauges continuing to pop their glass cases, I can see this gun thing resulting in disasterous concequences, and not just for newbie untrained gun owners.



The newbie untrained gun owner thing is why I highly recommend some training before making a firearms purchase. It will help you choose the right firearm, and it will help you avoid the disaster/tragedy of shooting yourself or some other non-bad guy by mistake. Plus, if actual bad guys really do show up, you'll be much more likely to be able to effectively deal with the situation.

[Andreuccio]

Well don't know if I lost my mind, that is up for debate, but tomorrow I am buying my first handgun, 2PM. Suggestions?

Jay, you're back east, aren't you? It's after 2pm there. What did you decide to do?

[Andreuccio]

Andreuccio, I second your choice. I used to own the same gun and it was easy to use as well as accurate. Man I miss that gun....

I really like the HK, too. Glad to see I'm not the only one here who chose a 9mm. I was starting to worry they might revoke my membership in the iTulip Skeet Shooting Club if I showed up with anything less than a .357 :(

[a warren]

You people deserve a war

[a warren]

On your home soil

[don]

I ran this thread past an acquaintance of mine who makes his own ammo. Here are his comments (he says business is brisk)

40 S&W is a good choice except that ammo is expensive and hard to find. With a 357 magnum you can always find cheap 38 special ammo. The concept of try before your buy has a lot of merit. Before you buy a Glock be aware that it can't use reloads.

In fact if you plan on reloading or using reloads it's hard to beat a revolver. Revolvers don't eject the spent brass out onto the ground and they're much easier on brass so it's easier to reload it. There's also a possibility that someday automatics may become illegal due to legislation. I highly recommend a S&W 686 with a 4" barrel, the balance and feel are perfect. Once again, try it first. Should you get a 40 cal. get lots of ammo for it, ammo availability will be a serious problem. Commonly available cartridges are 22 LR, 38 special, 9mm luger, 45ACP. 22LR can be used in either a rifle or a pistol so it's a twofer, it's also cheaper and more compact.

Many experts recommend a 12 ga. shotgun. 12 ga. ammo is omnipresent and very versatile. A shotgun requires less skill and training than either a rifle or pistol. The bad part is 12 ga. ammo is heavy and bulky. Shotguns have a limited range but that can be a good thing if you're shooting indoors.

In any event it's almost impossible to find any firearms for sale due to heavy demand. The selection is rather limited. If you want something special it's 100% down and there's a wait.

Guns I don't recommend! 41 magnum, 44 magnum, 454 Casul, and 500 S&W. To powerful, to expensive, and two hard to find ammo.

Ammo is available online at Natchezss, Midwayusa, Sportsmansguide, Cheaperthandirt, etc. You may find that there's a wait due to back-ordering. Order a lot of ammo and be prepared to wait. You may be asked for a copy of your drivers license and a written statement that you can legally have ammo. How much ammo? How much can your afford. Consider it an investment, the price of ammo probably won't go down. Ammo has a long shelf life if stored in a cool dry place. So buy at least 500 rounds. More is better, you don't want to run out and you could always trade it for something else that you need. You never want to run out of ammo, matches, or toilet paper.

Storage, should you decide to bury it I suggest military surplus ammo cans, and medical chests for larger items. Ammo cans are also available at the other websites I mentioned. What single gun would I recommend? That's a tough one but you might want to look at a Mossberg JIC. It's a 12ga pump with an 18.5" barrel and a pistol grip, it comes in a watertight storage container. It looks like an over sized pistol and can be used indoors if necessary. It's stainless steel with marincote corrosion resistant finish. It's designed for survival kits, compact yet efficient and versatile.

Ammo Man

[BadJuju]

In any event it's almost impossible to find any firearms for sale due to heavy demand. The selection is rather limited. If you want something special it's 100% down and there's a wait.



Ammo is available online at Natchezss, Midwayusa, Sportsmansguide, Cheaperthandirt, etc.


Ammo Man

I recommend Gunbroker.com for purchasing firearms, and Cabela's for purchasing ammunition. Great experiences with both! :cool:

[Andreuccio]

You never want to run out of ammo, matches, or toilet paper.



Words of wisdom. I had my wife stock up on "feminine hygiene products", too. Don't much want to run out of those, either.

[sn1p3r]

and they aren't bad for bandages either :)

[Andreuccio]

On your home soil

That's why I love iTulip: the friendly repartee and accepting nature of all participants, no matter their viewpoint. Pleasure to have you here, a warren. :)

[cjppjc]

ak47... the gun of choice for revolutionaries the world over. my gun's made in maine. so there.

I'm with you Metalman. Mine is also made in Maine, And makes a very load bang. Which is important as a deterent.

[Jay]

Sorry to leave you guys hanging, I've been at the gun store. :D I appreciate the advice very much. I went with my neighbor and decided after reading this thread and taking his advice which was the same as the advice here, to wait a week or two. He has a large selection of guns and we are going to the range this week and next to sort out what I like best. Lucky for me he lives next door and "gets it."
I do have a shotgun and already know how to use it. I can fire a rifle fairly well too. This will be my first handgun and first time firing one. My wife also has been extremely cold to the idea until recently. For three years she thought I was crazy with itulip brainwashing, but with all the recent news she has come around. Someone siphoned the gas right out of our car in the street two nights ago. That was the last straw.

[metalman]

You people deserve a war

that will cure us of gun lust, that's for certain. as i said, i don't like them. but it's a tragedy of the commons. if only criminals and guns nuts have guns, what are the rest of us supposed to do?

[BadJuju]

that will cure us of gun lust, that's for certain. as i said, i don't like them. but it's a tragedy of the commons. if only criminals and guns nuts have guns, what are the rest of us supposed to do?

Do a barrel roll!

[strittmatter]

You people deserve a war

and that conclusion being arrived at by the tone of this thread? all the criteria has been met?

No, I don't believe I do.

Good day.

[Andreuccio]

that will cure us of gun lust, that's for certain. as i said, i don't like them. but it's a tragedy of the commons. if only criminals and guns nuts have guns, what are the rest of us supposed to do?

I personally never thought I would own one. I'd heard repeatedly that it's more likely someone will get hurt accidentally with a gun in the home than that you'll actually end up using it successfully in self-defense. I felt very uncomfortable, both physically and mentally, the first time I used one.

Still, the changing economic situation and the reality of where I live, (where I think many people are both criminals and gun nuts), forced me to reevaluate my position, buy a handgun, and learn how to use it. Becoming more comfortable with it through training has made me more, well, comfortable with it.

My enthusiasm in this thread is partly just a function of finally having a thread here I feel I can comment on with some intelligence. Just lurking is getting old. I went so long without a post, I actually had an automated message at the top of the page when I logged in a week or so ago inviting me to post a comment and suggesting I would find members of the iTulip community don't bite. :D (Maybe not, but a warren barked at me a bit. :()

[Sharky]

I'm no expert, but my instructor is. His take: while the larger caliber do have more stopping power, 90% of stopping power is shot placement, not round size. A well placed shot with a 9mm is plenty effective.

Your so-called "expert" sounds like they might be more of an accuracy-oriented expert than an expert in self defense.

The problem with that way of thinking is that 99% of the people who have a handgun for self defense are not going to be well-trained enough to shoot accurately under the stress of a real-life gunfight.

There's a reason why the military chose the .45: it's easier to learn to shoot well enough to stop someone.

I think a lot of 9mm gun owners have a TV/movie-driven fantasy that they will actually be able to use all of those rounds in their pistol in a real firefight. If you look at historical police records for firefights, you'll see that's just not the case. You'll be lucky to get off more than 2 or 3 rounds before the whole thing is over.

[Andreuccio]

Your so-called "expert" sounds like they might be more of an accuracy-oriented expert than an expert in self defense.

Maybe. He does do competitive shooting. He's ex-special forces, though, too, so I know he has experience in real life situations, although perhaps not what one of us would be likely to face. His discussions with me have been focused on real life situations, and not so much competitions.

Also, just to be clear, he didn't recommend the 9mm. He went through advantages and disadvantages of each caliber. I focused on the advantages of the 9mm in my post only to contrast it with the disadvantages you and Clue pointed out.

He said his own personal carry weapons are 45's and 40's, and that right now he'd lean towards the 40 if he were to buy one. I chose the 9 on my own, due to a variety of reasons, perhaps good ones, perhaps not.

The problem with that way of thinking is that 99% of the people who have a handgun for self defense are not going to be well-trained enough to shoot accurately under the stress of a real-life gunfight.

Probably not. He did tell me, though, that of all his current and past clients, only two have had to use their guns, and both of them did pretty well. Maybe his advice is aimed specifically at clients, knowing they are committed to training to the point of proficiency. I think it would be crazy to get a gun and then not learn how to use it well. You're just asking for trouble. Maybe I won't make that 1% of people that you say are well enough trained to shoot accurately, but I'm sure going to try. :)


I think a lot of 9mm gun owners have a TV/movie-driven fantasy that they will actually be able to use all of those rounds in their pistol in a real firefight. If you look at historical police records for firefights, you'll see that's just not the case. You'll be lucky to get off more than 2 or 3 rounds before the whole thing is over.

That's probably fair. I'm sure there's some fantasy that went into my decision. Still, it'd be a drag to get into a situation where you need 8 or more rounds and find you only have 7, or 6. I did like the feel of the 45 caliber Glock. It's a really nice weapon.

An issue for me that maybe isn't so important for others is cost. 9mm rounds are just a lot cheaper than .40s, .45s, or .357s, at least where I've been buying them. I want to train a fair amount to increase my proficiency, but if I'm going to train a lot, I want to keep the cost to a minimum. If that weren't an issue I might have chosen a .40 or .45 instead. Also, if I bought a second handgun, I'd look seriously at one of those two.

[Jay]

Jay, you're back east, aren't you? It's after 2pm there. What did you decide to do?
I went to the range after starting this thread, absorbed the advice, and am now in the process of joining a private gun club. After firing a bunch of guns I ended up choosing a Kimber Carry .45 Semi. I really loved the Colt Python, but went with the semi as it is slightly safer with kids around than a revolver. I also bought a case of ammo which is locked in my safe right now. Thanks everyone for the great input.

[bart]

http://www.nowandfutures.com/g2/glam_gun_mylittleponycarbine.jpg


My other gun is a .600 Nitro Express... ;)

[Jay]

http://www.nowandfutures.com/g2/glam_gun_mylittleponycarbine.jpg


My other gun is a .600 Nitro Express... ;)
Why not the .700?

[Verrocchio]

Easy on the pistoleros, muchachos! Even if you train with a pistol before you go to the mall, you'd be surprised how long it takes to react, pull, aim, and fire, especially if it's a concealed carry (which it would be unless you're a police officer in uniform). An aggressive punk within 15 feet of you who decides to rush you will assault you before you can shoot him. This is not to mention the time it takes to process the severity of the threat (life threatening or just mouthy). Moral: Support your local police (and judicial system) and avoid trouble spots.

[Andreuccio]

http://www.nowandfutures.com/g2/glam_gun_mylittleponycarbine.jpg


My other gun is a .600 Nitro Express... ;)


The Glambo Signature Series "My Little Pony" M4A1 carbine with forward handgrip and AN-PVS4 night vision sight. This fully functional weapon fires standard 5.56mm ammunition -- great for those AR-15 fans with extra ammo lying around the house or even extra parts! (Note: the full-auto selection has been disabled in this model in favor of three-round-burst. This product cannot be shipped to California.) The perfect way to introduce your little princess to the wonders of nocturnal wet-work!
A bargain at only $1,147.95! (Compare to stock M4's at $1,300.00!)

Outstanding! My 3 year old daughter LOVES My Little Pony. I know what I'm getting her for Christmas! :D

[Andreuccio]

Easy on the pistoleros, muchachos! Even if you train with a pistol before you go to the mall, you'd be surprised how long it takes to react, pull, aim, and fire, especially if it's a concealed carry (which it would be unless you're a police officer in uniform). An aggressive punk within 15 feet of you who decides to rush you will assault you before you can shoot him. This is not to mention the time it takes to process the severity of the threat (life threatening or just mouthy). Moral: Support your local police (and judicial system) and avoid trouble spots.

That's why I like to invoke the Bush Doctrine when I go to the shopping mall.
;)

[dpandorf]

I went to the range after starting this thread, absorbed the advice, and am now in the process of joining a private gun club. After firing a bunch of guns I ended up choosing a Kimber Carry .45 Semi. I really loved the Colt Python, but went with the semi as it is slightly safer with kids around than a revolver. I also bought a case of ammo which is locked in my safe right now. Thanks everyone for the great input.

Glad to hear you've made a decision on protecting yourself and loved ones. I myself am a Glock fan and have bought 3 in the last few months. Plus stocked up on plenty of ammo too.

One of the reasons I like the Glock product is reliability, parts availability and the ability to repair them yourself without the need to send them back to the manufacturer or gunsmith.

Another great reason I like them is the simplicity and many options available. Like the Glock 18 9mm 33 round magazine works just fine in my G-19 and G-26.

[Lukester]

Oh cool. More gun porn.

[jtabeb]

Outstanding! My 3 year old daughter LOVES My Little Pony. I know what I'm getting her for Christmas! :D

I just hope you can afford the price of ammo for this thing, It has TRIPLED in 12 months. (And I know of what I speak)

[Sharky]

He said his own personal carry weapons are 45's and 40's, and that right now he'd lean towards the 40 if he were to buy one.

Ah, well that makes more sense.

Maybe I won't make that 1% of people that you say are well enough trained to shoot accurately, but I'm sure going to try. :)

It's not shooting accurately by itself that's the challenge. The problem is shooting accurately under pressure. It's not something you can learn at a range, unless you have a really, really good teacher.

Still, it'd be a drag to get into a situation where you need 8 or more rounds and find you only have 7, or 6.

An even bigger drag would be to know you hit someone and they were still able to harm you afterwards because the caliber you used didn't have enough stopping power.

9mm rounds are just a lot cheaper than .40s, .45s, or .357s, at least where I've been buying them.

Yep, very true. Can't argue with that one.

[Sharky]

I really loved the Colt Python, but went with the semi as it is slightly safer with kids around than a revolver.

The Python is an awesome pistol. One of my favorites. Very smooth action and extremely accurate. With a trigger lock, it's just as safe as a semi.

[dbarberic]

My wife and I have signed up for a NRA basic pistol certification course. I figure if I am serious about buying a pistol that I want to make sure that we both trained on the proper use and safety of it. It also includes range time that will allow us to try serval types of hand guns so we can make a better purchase decision.

[touchring]

all this firepower will make stage 4 and 5 really bloody. :eek:


http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html

Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that "your people will take care of you" is lost, as local social institutions, be they charities or other groups that rush in to fill the power vacuum run out of resources or fail through internal conflict.

Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their capacity for "kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity" (Turnbull, The Mountain People). Families disband and compete as individuals for scarce resources. The new motto becomes "May you die today so that I die tomorrow" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago). There may even be some cannibalism.


have you prepared the body armor and bullet proof car? :D

[Andreuccio]

I just hope you can afford the price of ammo for this thing, It has TRIPLED in 12 months. (And I know of what I speak)

For my little one, money is no object. As long as I can get the My Little Pony logo on the ammo, too, though. I don't think she'll be interested if it's just plain lead and copper.

Maybe I can set up a birthday party for her at the range. We can have a My Little Pony theme, with my little pony guns, ammo, and targets. What do you think?

[raja]

Easy on the pistoleros, muchachos! Even if you train with a pistol before you go to the mall, you'd be surprised how long it takes to react, pull, aim, and fire, especially if it's a concealed carry (which it would be unless you're a police officer in uniform). An aggressive punk within 15 feet of you who decides to rush you will assault you before you can shoot him. This is not to mention the time it takes to process the severity of the threat (life threatening or just mouthy). Moral: Support your local police (and judicial system) and avoid trouble spots.
There are other scenarios in which it would be good to be armed . . . .

A wacko is walking through the mall firing at people. You see him coming, jump behind a counter, pull out your gun, and take him down . . . saving lot's of lives.

Or, you're in the back of a convenience store. You hear somebody come in and say, "Everybody up against the wall or I'll shoot you." You pull out your gun from behind the shelving and shoot him.

Or, some armed idiot tries to car-jack you and take you for a hostage. He's not aware you are armed. He gets in the car, starts driving, and you pull out your gun and shoot him.

I could go on . . . .

Not that I ever go out of the house with a gun . . . but that day may come :eek:

[strittmatter]

have you prepared the body armor and bullet proof car? :D

almost there.........


http://www.geocities.com/cmpvehicles/images/c15ta_indonesia.jpg (http://sus3041.web.infoseek.co.jp/outside/jmm/jmm.htm)

[Lukester]

Two years ago there was zero talk about guns and self defense on iTulip. This preoccupation and enthusiasm has come in with a whole new crop of members. I preferred the general tenor of the previous crop, when it came to their view of the intrinsic fascination of this topic. Why don't you guys keep your gun enthusiasms elsewhere? Don;t know if you are aware of it, but you are imparting a certain "tone and color" to these pages with this ongoing celebration. "I love my gun", because of it's "smooth action". Sounds slightly dumbed down to this reader as an integral part of a "finance/econ" webiste. Why don't you guys take this conversation to a gun club? Is it really a profound part of iTulip's economic analysis? When was the last time you read EJ, or Finster, or JK or the other original contributors discussing their gun collections? Bart mentioned it a day or two ago, but he was only joking around. The point being, this community was nowhere near these kinds of enthusiasms two years ago - and the tone of this website has changed because you've all brought this celebration in here as a "vital part of the discussion". It sure isn't, to this reader.

[FRED]

Two years ago there was zero talk about guns and self defense on iTulip. This preoccupation and enthusiasm has come in with a whole new crop of members. I preferred the general tenor of the previous crop, when it came to their view of the intrinsic fascination of this topic. Why don't you guys keep your gun enthusiasms elsewhere? Don;t know if you are aware of it, but you are imparting a certain "tone and color" to these pages with this ongoing celebration. "I love my gun", because of it's "smooth action". Sounds slightly obscene to this reader. Why don't you guys take this conversation to a gun club? Is it really a profound part of iTulip's economic analysis? When was the last time you read EJ, or Finster, or JK or the other original contributors discussing their gun collections? Bart mentioned it a day or two ago, but he was only joking around. The point being, this community was nowhere near these kinds of enthusiasms two years ago - and the tone of this website has changed because you've all brought this celebration in here as a "vital part of the discussion". It sure isn't, to this reader.

That's why this is in Rant and Rave, specifically in the Lost My Mind sub-forum. :)

Now where's my Glock.

[strittmatter]

there...........

http://www.dreamstime.com/gun-tied-in-a-knot-thumb5180456.jpg

happy?

[Lukester]

Here's a follow on comment from another iTuliper in response to Fred (fittingly, from the "America will collapse" thread).

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=83567#poststop

[Lukester]

Aldous Huxley did not wear a Glock. :rolleyes:

That's why this is in Rant and Rave, specifically in the Lost My Mind sub-forum. :)

Now where's my Glock.

[Sharky]

Why don't you guys keep your gun enthusiasms elsewhere? Don;t know if you are aware of it, but you are imparting a certain "tone and color" to these pages with this ongoing celebration.

Just as you are imparting a certain "tone and color" by suggesting what's appropriate to discuss here and what isn't.

Besides, who's celebrating?

[Jay]

Two years ago there was zero talk about guns and self defense on iTulip. This preoccupation and enthusiasm has come in with a whole new crop of members. I preferred the general tenor of the previous crop, when it came to their view of the intrinsic fascination of this topic. Why don't you guys keep your gun enthusiasms elsewhere? Don;t know if you are aware of it, but you are imparting a certain "tone and color" to these pages with this ongoing celebration. "I love my gun", because of it's "smooth action". Sounds slightly dumbed down to this reader as an integral part of a "finance/econ" webiste. Why don't you guys take this conversation to a gun club? Is it really a profound part of iTulip's economic analysis? When was the last time you read EJ, or Finster, or JK or the other original contributors discussing their gun collections? Bart mentioned it a day or two ago, but he was only joking around. The point being, this community was nowhere near these kinds of enthusiasms two years ago - and the tone of this website has changed because you've all brought this celebration in here as a "vital part of the discussion". It sure isn't, to this reader.
Luke, as FRED pointed out, this is in Rant and Rave for a reason. I put it there to mitigate upset from the non-gun crowd; I didn't want to change the tenor of other conversations going on. That being said, I feel that it is a valid discussion, especially in light of the shift towards the belief that a possibility of hyperinflation now exists. That world is one which could be dangerous. I am not a gun fan, was raised in a non-gun, even anti-gun, home and yet think this purchase is a prudent decision on many levels. Right now the cost of insurance for a hyperinflationary event is still cheap. If we are unlucky enough to live through hyperinflation the availability of a gun and ammo will be difficult to non-existant. I respect deeply your feelings towards guns and also those of anyone else that may see things differently. And, again, I thank all the members, long timers and newbies, for your input. I'm now working on that .600 Nitro, and am hoping for a Care Bears version.
Cheers.

[marvenger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15FZlFMXs8

[goadam1]

My common sense wife recently suggested we take shooting lessons. She is hugely anti-gun and then she asks if we can take shooting lessons. Now, it wasn't hard to talk her into the gold coins, but is all the itulip talk seeping in and coming out guns? Or is it the tenor of the times?

[jtabeb]

For my little one, money is no object. As long as I can get the My Little Pony logo on the ammo, too, though. I don't think she'll be interested if it's just plain lead and copper.

Maybe I can set up a birthday party for her at the range. We can have a My Little Pony theme, with my little pony guns, ammo, and targets. What do you think?

My son is in, he has a STYER AUG in GI JOE GREEN. (I'll bring the SS-109 semi AP ammo)

[marvenger]

I think thats a good question. my two cents is that I know people in south africa who have had their whole family wiped out. For instance my uncles best mate lost his grandmother, mother and two sisters when robbers broke into their house abducted all of them, put them in the boot of the car, drove off somewhere and shot them all while they were all inside. That's the worst instance i've heard of but there's plenty more grotesque stories, so I can understand wanting to own a gun as it could come in handy. Having said that, I don't think the US is nearly as bad as SA so I think you guys might be inviting trouble. The other thing is that the guys in SA that I think have the most quality of life are the ones that don't own guns, take the view that if someone breaks in and kills them there's probably not much they could do about it anyway. They live life fairly simply with everything they need in the house but nothing over the top and have insurance just in case of a break in, don't bother with massive security systems etc. I think these guys attitude also helps them avoid trouble for the most part. But the important qualifier here is that most people who live like this are single or retired and don't have a family to protect, but not all. Point is I can understand wanting to protect your family.

[lakedaemonian]

A couple people have mentioned the need for appropriate training before a firearm is purchased.

I haven't seen anyone suggest purchasing a training pistol/rifle.

I strongly believe the first rifle and the first pistol purchased should be one chambered for .22LR.

The cost of the firearm, the cost of the ammunition, and the ease of training due to lower recoil and noise signature makes for a less stressful experience for beginners, as well as affordable ongoing training for even the most experienced.

Lots of discussion about which firearm and which calibre is best....beyond just training for safe handling is a constant need to develop and maintain what is ultimately a perishable skill.....which even amongst professionals and civilian competitive shooters......dulling the skillset quickly.

Consistant training is necessary to maintain even a basic competency.

I believe 99% of people can physically do so safely and easily....but few bother to actually gain or maintain their appropriate level of shooting skillset.

I've carried and used firearms on operations, and I shoot competitively.

The adversary to fear is not someone who will argue about the minutiae of firearm/calibre endlessly and has a bigger collection than Charleton Heston.

The adversary to fear is the one who's single firearm, combined with regular training, has become an extention of his/her hand....even if it's only a .22LR

Firearms are merely tools....the firefight is almost always won LONG before it's even started.

Just my 0.02c :)

[metalman]

A couple people have mentioned the need for appropriate training before a firearm is purchased.

I haven't seen anyone suggest purchasing a training pistol/rifle.

I strongly believe the first rifle and the first pistol purchased should be one chambered for .22LR.

The cost of the firearm, the cost of the ammunition, and the ease of training due to lower recoil and noise signature makes for a less stressful experience for beginners, as well as affordable ongoing training for even the most experienced.

Lots of discussion about which firearm and which calibre is best....beyond just training for safe handling is a constant need to develop and maintain what is ultimately a perishable skill.....which even amongst professionals and civilian competitive shooters......dulling the skillset quickly.

Consistant training is necessary to maintain even a basic competency.

I believe 99% of people can physically do so safely and easily....but few bother to actually gain or maintain their appropriate level of shooting skillset.

I've carried and used firearms on operations, and I shoot competitively.

The adversary to fear is not someone who will argue about the minutiae of firearm/calibre endlessly and has a bigger collection than Charleton Heston.

The adversary to fear is the one who's single firearm, combined with regular training, has become an extention of his/her hand....even if it's only a .22LR

Firearms are merely tools....the firefight is almost always won LONG before it's even started.

Just my 0.02c :)

wow. looks like we have the grg of self defense here. welcome :)

i own firearms to level the playing field. most armed attackers can safely assume that their target is not armed. most will give up asap when they see that they are wrong and you are armed. that takes care of 90%....show the weapon in a way that demonstrates you know how to use it and they will take off fast.

if you are shooting from a distance you are in trouble with the law, if you are shooting close up that is because your attacker is suicidal.

the most under-reported gun statistic is 'no shots fired, perp runs away'.

i think in terms of probabilities. that's why i carry.

[marvenger]

yeah fair enough, I know zilch about guns, I doubt that most gun owners are as sensible as you in understanding what its there for though

[Sharky]

I strongly believe the first rifle and the first pistol purchased should be one chambered for .22LR.

I agree, and preach this too. Very few listen, though. Way, way too many gun owners out there with high-caliber guns who are unsafe and outright dangerous to anyone around them. You can spot them a mile away at the range.

[shiny!]

Before you buy your first gun, take a gun safety course from a reputable instructor.

Learn "The Four Rules of Gun Safety". Memorize them, practice them, and make them automatic, "auto pilot" behavior. Everyone should know these rules, even if they don't like guns and don't handle guns. Because you never know when you might have to handle one.

Rule 1. Every gun is a loaded gun, every time you pick it up.

Rule 2. Never point the gun at anything you don't wish to destroy.

Rule 3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire.

Rule 4. Always be aware of your target background.

Every time you hear a news story of someone being hurt or killed by an accidental discharge, it's because the person with the gun was not observing at least one of these rules.

#1 means that every time you pick up a gun the first thing you do is check to see if it's loaded. Doesn't matter if you just put it down on the table, then pick it up a moment later. CHECK IT. Doesn't matter if your friend tells you it isn't loaded. CHECK IT. Always treat it as if it is loaded, even if it isn't.

#2 means that you don't wave a gun around and "sweep" your spouse, friend, dog or even your own foot. Especially because that gun is loaded. See #1.

#3 means that if your finger is not on the trigger, the gun can't go off accidentally. Practice your draw and safety release. Your finger doesn't go on the trigger until you are aimed at your target.

#4 means be aware of who and what is behind your target, because odds are that in a stressful situation you will probably miss. High-penetration calibers such as 9mm and .357 magnum can and do penetrate walls. Is a loved one on the other side of that wall? For home security it might be wise to load shot shells or .38 specials in that .357 magnum.

GUNPROOF YOUR CHILDREN: You never know when your child might come across a gun at a friend's house or while out playing. Just as you teach your child not to play with matches and not to go swimming without an adult present, you should teach your child about gun safety in an age-appropriate way.

Don't give your children toy guns. Teach them that guns are not toys. When my son was little he had a squirt gun that did not look like a gun. He was not allowed to yell, "bang! bang!" Instead he yelled, "squirt! squirt!"

The NRA's Eddie Eagle gun safety program teaches children that if they ever come across a gun they should:

1. STOP!
2. DON'T TOUCH!
3. Get away from the gun and tell an adult.

Teach this to your children.

Small children should not know you even have guns. When your child is old enough to know you have a gun, take him or her to the firing range. Explain again that a gun is a dangerous tool, and not a toy. Fire the weapon once WITHOUT your child wearing ear protectors, just to let it sink in how loud and dangerous a gun really is. Allow your children to learn about guns safely, so it takes the allure out of the "mysterious gun".

If your family watches TV, watch with your children and make it a contest to spot how many times the Four Rules are broken.

I hope this is helpful.

[flintlock]

Since this is your first pistol I assume its not for concealed carry? If I'm right then your choices become even greater. While SIG and HK make fine pistols, don't think you have to spend a fortune to get a good weapon. A few hundred dollars will buy you a very nice used pistol. And most used pistols were actually used very little. Personally I look for reliability and ease of use. What feels comfortable. Fancy finish work and crap like custom pearl handles comes way down the list for me. Save that stuff for the collectors.

There are so many good choices out there, you really need to better define your needs. Will it be carried in a vehicle? Stored in a Safe? Will it be subject to the elements. Will the size be important. Are your hands big or small? Auto or revolver? (There are pros and cons to both.) Don't get carried away with the "man stopper" argument. Contrary to what some say, you don't necessarily need a 45 or a .357. 9mm is a nice starting point, though I carry a 9mm Makarov, which is even weaker. Huge pistols tend to get left at home.

[flintlock]

Easy on the pistoleros, muchachos! Even if you train with a pistol before you go to the mall, you'd be surprised how long it takes to react, pull, aim, and fire, especially if it's a concealed carry (which it would be unless you're a police officer in uniform). An aggressive punk within 15 feet of you who decides to rush you will assault you before you can shoot him. This is not to mention the time it takes to process the severity of the threat (life threatening or just mouthy). Moral: Support your local police (and judicial system) and avoid trouble spots.

I never owned a pistol until about 15 years ago. That's when an intruder tried to break into my house while I was asleep. The police arrived 30-45 minutes later. This came at a time when we had just had a murder two doors down. Scared the heck out of me, but the murderer turned out to be the husband, not an intruder as first thought.

I agree, avoid trouble spots, and odds are, when out in public, the perp will get the drop on you most times. I only have a carry permit because I work in some bad areas.

[ThePythonicCow]

I really loved the Colt PythonSweet. I should check that one out. It's been many decades since I've fired a gun. I have big hands and a serious love of fine mechanicals and tight tolerances. I've been considering getting a gun or two, probably a revolver and a rifle. Besides, with a name like Colt Python, how could I resist?

Well, looks like its not all that cheap, and no longer manufactured, so that could cause the sensible cheapskate lobe of my brain to protest. We'll see.

[HDLee]

I think thats a good question. my two cents is that I know people in south africa who have had their whole family wiped out. For instance my uncles best mate lost his grandmother, mother and two sisters when robbers broke into their house abducted all of them, put them in the boot of the car, drove off somewhere and shot them all while they were all inside. That's the worst instance i've heard of but there's plenty more grotesque stories, so I can understand wanting to own a gun as it could come in handy. Having said that, I don't think the US is nearly as bad as SA so I think you guys might be inviting trouble. The other thing is that the guys in SA that I think have the most quality of life are the ones that don't own guns, take the view that if someone breaks in and kills them there's probably not much they could do about it anyway. They live life fairly simply with everything they need in the house but nothing over the top and have insurance just in case of a break in, don't bother with massive security systems etc. I think these guys attitude also helps them avoid trouble for the most part. But the important qualifier here is that most people who live like this are single or retired and don't have a family to protect, but not all. Point is I can understand wanting to protect your family.

I live in SA . . . everyone here knows someone who has been hijacked, robbed, assaulted . . . a close friend of mine in JHB was hijacked a year ago (thats a gun to your head). His 12 yr old son - went walking on a ridge (Westcliff) with a friend and they held up by some young gansters. They were stripped bear and everything was stolen !!! :eek: !!!

That same friend went to see the gorillas in Rwanda . . . there you can buy AK's @ the local market !!!

take a look at these statistics
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sf-south-africa/cri-crime

according to them we take 1st place for gun violence>Homicide>overall homicide rate . . . and 2nd place gun violence>homicides>% homicides with firearms . . .

I lived in a "high risk" area on the coast 9 years ago, very little security - access from beach and road. There were a number of break-in's and attacks along the road, although I got exposure to guns very young (born in a war and my father used to hunt) I hate them - I got a dog (German Shepard) and trained her, she went every where with me - I never had a problem.