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don
02-02-09, 02:28 PM
Will it be the Carter...the Monroe...or a brand new and shiny Obama "Save the Earth" Doctrine?

<nyt_headline version="1.0" type=" "> In Bolivia, Untapped Bounty Meets Nationalism </nyt_headline>

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/02/02/world/lithium_600.12.jpg
Underneath the salt flats in Uyuni, Bolivia, lies the world's largest lithium reserves.

UYUNI, Bolivia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/bolivia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) — In the rush to build the next generation of hybrid or electric cars, a sobering fact confronts both automakers and governments seeking to lower their reliance on foreign oil: almost half of the world’s lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found here in Bolivia — a country that may not be willing to surrender it so easily.

Japanese and European companies are busily trying to strike deals to tap the resource, but a nationalist sentiment about the lithium is building quickly in the government of President Evo Morales (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/evo_morales/index.html?inline=nyt-per), an ardent critic of the United States who has already nationalized Bolivia’s oil and natural gas industries.

For now, the government talks of closely controlling the lithium itself and keeping foreigners at bay. Adding to the pressure, indigenous groups here in the remote salt desert where the mineral lies are pushing for a share in the eventual bounty.

“We know that Bolivia can become the Saudi Arabia of lithium,” said Francisco Quisbert, 64, the leader of Frutcas, a group of salt gatherers and quinoa farmers on the edge of Salar de Uyuni, the world’s largest salt flat. “We are poor, but we are not stupid peasants,” he said. “The lithium may be Bolivia’s, but it is also our property.”

The new constitution Mr. Morales managed to pass handily last month bolsters such claims. One of its provisions could give Indians control over the natural resources in their territory, strengthening their ability to win concessions from authorities and private companies, or even block mining projects.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/world/americas/03lithium.html?hp

The New York Times, preparing tomorrow's battlefield ;)

metalman
02-02-09, 02:46 PM
Will it be the Carter...the Monroe...or a brand new and shiny Obama "Save the Earth" Doctrine?

<nyt_headline version="1.0" type=" "> In Bolivia, Untapped Bounty Meets Nationalism </nyt_headline>

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/02/02/world/lithium_600.12.jpg
Underneath the salt flats in Uyuni, Bolivia, lies the world's largest lithium reserves.

UYUNI, Bolivia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/bolivia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) — In the rush to build the next generation of hybrid or electric cars, a sobering fact confronts both automakers and governments seeking to lower their reliance on foreign oil: almost half of the world’s lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found here in Bolivia — a country that may not be willing to surrender it so easily.

Japanese and European companies are busily trying to strike deals to tap the resource, but a nationalist sentiment about the lithium is building quickly in the government of President Evo Morales (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/evo_morales/index.html?inline=nyt-per), an ardent critic of the United States who has already nationalized Bolivia’s oil and natural gas industries.

For now, the government talks of closely controlling the lithium itself and keeping foreigners at bay. Adding to the pressure, indigenous groups here in the remote salt desert where the mineral lies are pushing for a share in the eventual bounty.

“We know that Bolivia can become the Saudi Arabia of lithium,” said Francisco Quisbert, 64, the leader of Frutcas, a group of salt gatherers and quinoa farmers on the edge of Salar de Uyuni, the world’s largest salt flat. “We are poor, but we are not stupid peasants,” he said. “The lithium may be Bolivia’s, but it is also our property.”

The new constitution Mr. Morales managed to pass handily last month bolsters such claims. One of its provisions could give Indians control over the natural resources in their territory, strengthening their ability to win concessions from authorities and private companies, or even block mining projects.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/world/americas/03lithium.html?hp

The New York Times, preparing tomorrow's battlefield ;)

guess that means only one thing: the usa is not going to count on lithium batteries to solve its fuel efficient car problem. look for designs based on platinum acidic fuel cells and nickel for alkaline versions.

Master Shake
02-02-09, 02:56 PM
One of its provisions could give Indians control over the natural resources in their territory, strengthening their ability to win concessions from authorities and private companies, or even block mining projects.


One word: firewater.

antiserf
02-02-09, 03:33 PM
guess that means only one thing: the usa is not going to count on lithium batteries to solve its fuel efficient car problem. look for designs based on platinum acidic fuel cells and nickel for alkaline versions.Not so fast. The Obama Doctrine might very well be Bolivia, a foreign intervention you can believe in.

I'm sure multi-national corporations, including big oil, are chomping at the bit to gain control over these reserves. Look for Bolivia to be declared a enemy in the US wars on drugs and terrorism.

tsetsefly
02-02-09, 03:44 PM
Not so fast. The Obama Doctrine might very well be Bolivia, a foreign intervention you can believe in.

I'm sure multi-national corporations, including big oil, are chomping at the bit to gain control over these reserves. Look for Bolivia to be declared a enemy in the US wars on drugs and terrorism.

Exactly, but just remove the terrorism part, being an enemy in the war on drugs is suffice.

And we know Obama is 100% behind it as has every other president been :(

ProdigyofZen
02-02-09, 04:06 PM
I have been to Santa Cruz, Bolivia which is north of this region. My girlfriends family owns a lot of land and companies in Bolivia. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Maybe i will try and get a company started to grab some of that land! But of course I would pay the natives a handsome sum for rights to the land. Evo will soon be out as president he will not be another Chavez. The rumblings are already in place and the people will not allow him to nationalize everything and take the land from the landowners.

oddlots
02-02-09, 07:06 PM
I wouldn't buy in too fast unless you're looking to purvey Snake Oil (from what I've read):

Snake Oil Alert (and yes, Don, I realise this may only strengthen your "Doctrine Alert" argument):

http://www.incakolanews.blogspot.com/2008/10/we-now-have-price-on-that-lithium-snake.html

http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2008/09/bi-polar-lithium-investments.html

"No, the brave new world of Hybrid transport and electric movement forces is likely to be supplied by good old Zinc/Nickel batteries, as the smart people in white coats (http://www.powergenix.com/hev.php) have finally worked out how to get these safe metals combining more efficiently. Which just gives you another good reason to bet on the future of Zn the metal, I reckon (though this news is unlikely to move the spot market much in the next 24 hours, it has to be admitted)."

Prodigy of Zen 8 (how should we appropriately address Thee?): Without casting aspersions on your family contacts in Santa Cruz, what the "opposition" to Morales in Santa Cruz and the other Media Luna departments have been doing (with USAID support it has been alleged) is disgusting. Here's a taste:

http://www.incakolanews.blogspot.com/2009/01/bolivia-santa-cruz-racist-violence.html

I'm sure there's a well reasoned, honourable opposition to Morales that doesn't involve beating on indians in the street. Do you have any links? And what makes you so sure that Morales will be defeated and that this will be a good thing for the country as a whole?

GRG55
02-02-09, 10:07 PM
Not so fast. The Obama Doctrine might very well be Bolivia, a foreign intervention you can believe in.

I'm sure multi-national corporations, including big oil, are chomping at the bit to gain control over these reserves. Look for Bolivia to be declared a enemy in the US wars on drugs and terrorism.

Care to cite a reference?

oddlots
02-02-09, 10:29 PM
Care to cite a reference?

Here's a reference, though it has nothing to do with lithium but everything to do with opposing the Bolivarian movement (or "revolution" if you're tuning in from Venezuela):

http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2008/11/government-of-evo-morales-and-fight.html

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 12:30 AM
Seriously oddlots? I bet you are one of those people who think "only" whites can be racist? Is that how you think? Trust me those people in bolivia are not getting aid from the US and I have personal contacts in the government that validate that claim. I have seen many "mobs" as that video calls them of Indians attacking whites in Santa Cruz. They were close to war on both sides a few months back. What you dont get is that Santa Cruz is predominately indian and 90% of that city voted agaisnt Morales, so most of the indians and mixed indian/whites in Beni, Santa Cruz, Cochabamba do not like Evo and did not vote for him. Its the large indian population in La Paz and Sucre who voted for him who are like 70% of the population in Bolivia. But even there his own indian people protest agaisnt him for destroying mining jobs. Why is it when 80% of the indians vote for an indian its ethnic voting and OKAY! but when 50% of the whites vote for a white candidate its racist? Its all BS and everything is agaisnt white people now days. You dont think that inca kola news is putting out info so that people will not come to invest in the salt lake and mind the lithium there?? P.S. Inka Cola is pretty good! the soda....

oddlots
02-03-09, 08:07 AM
Re: not getting aid from the US.

"Declassified documents and interviews on the ground in Bolivia prove that the Bush Administration is using U.S. taxpayers’ money to undermine the Morales government and coopt the country’s dynamic social movements—just as it has tried to do recently in Venezuela and traditionally throughout Latin America. Much of that money is going through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). In July 2002, a declassified message from the U.S. embassy in Bolivia to Washington included the following message: “A planned USAID political party reform project aims at implementing an existing Bolivian law that would . . . over the long run, help build moderate, pro-democracy political parties that can serve as a counterweight to the radical MAS or its successors.” MAS refers to Morales’s party, which, in English, stands for Movement Toward Socialism."


Source:http://casa-del-duderino.blogspot.com/2008/02/undermining-bolivia.html


There's also this meeting between the US ambassador and the Media Luna "opposition" at the height of the "war on both sides":


"Very strange USA-y things have been going on in Santa Cruz, Bolivia this week. First up, the US ambassador to Bolivia, Philip Goldberg........ went on a visit to the region ostensibly to do some USAID business and stuff. In the words of Goldberg (http://abi.bo/index.php?i=noticias_texto_paleta&j=20080826230021&l=200808260030), "......I went to Santa Cruz for various reasons; to deliver aid packages, I was at the inauguration of the special Olympics with the Prefect (Ruben Costas), and I also showed via tele-info the aid in this sector and the aid given in computing. I also took advantage of this visit to meet, in public, with the prefect Costas, only because this is part of my diplomatic duties." Which would be nice if it were true, of course, but Goldberg has been caught in a big fat lie. Here's an image of the "public meeting" Goldberg had with Costas.........and it's only because a cameraman at a local TV station was smart enough to get a shot of them together as they entered and left the Prefecture building....


Regarding the question of racism, can I see some documentation of Indian mobs attacking whites? MAS (Evo's party) doesn't need mobs. It's trounced the opposition in two recent elections. In fact check out these images of local police in Santa Cruz running away from opposition thugs in order to avoid a confrontation:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6hlca_violencia-en-el-paro-en-bolivia_news



On the other hand, the opposition needs violence in order to claim that Evo's rule will bring Chaos. If you want more sickening images of this I can keep them coming.... How about this from last May:


"Specifically, a crowd lead by university youth assaulted campesino delegates from rural municipalities of Chuquisaca (Sucre is the provincial capital), in Sucre to publicly receive central government funds from Morales, for their opposition to moving the capital back to Sucre and support of the MAS government. The campesinos were then forced under threat of further violence to disrobe (pictured above) in Sucre's central public plaza, hold the Chuquisaca flag (bearing the Spanish Imperial Cross), and apologize for not supporting Sucre's demands- kiss the steps of the Casa de la Libertad, where Bolivia's indigenous were originally made legal nonpersons in the drafting of the country's first constitution; all the while their ponchos (symbol of indigenous identity) were burned."


http://casa-del-duderino.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-fit-to-print.html


Or this video of the Pando massacre:


http://www.incakolanews.blogspot.com/2008/09/bolivia-video-showing-pando-masacre.html


If I am somehow being one sided perhaps you'd care to document some of the anti-white violence for me...



Or perhaps you'd just like to distance yourself from the kind of opposition to Morales documented here by showing a well reasoned opposition argument by someone who has not disqualified themselves by being associated with these disgusting a-holes.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 09:34 AM
Lol this is funny stuff Oddlots, you can go ahead with your crusade to destroy "whites" because that is exactly what it is. If you do not believe that the Indians riot and kill people you are completely well I won't say it. Yes, I could go through your motions and actions and find videos of indians attacking whites, but you must know these are outliers and not what "most" bolivians do to other bolivians. Everything you have shown so far is conjecture and propaganda and I know that is the world you traffic in because of the sources that you get your news. It is pretty sad to me. I have been there and I know from first hand knowledge of what it is like. What you don't see is the constant robberies, muggins etc done agaisnt the so called "whites" that you talk about.

oddlots
02-03-09, 10:31 AM
Massacres are "funny stuff"? Videos of them are "conjecture and propaganda"? You don't feel the need to distance yourself from these people?

Says it all.

O hey, I've got a preview of the sort of mine this joker would set up in Bolivia (as if it'd ever get to production):

http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2009/01/monterrico-metals-how-perus-police-and.html

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 12:41 PM
what massacres are you talking about? dude you are completely awol.... 1 person dying on either side is not a massacre and 3 people beating up 1 person is not a "mob" like you like to say. How can you claim what kind of mine I would have in Bolivia? Sure there are outliers where miners are treated bad but there are TONS where they are paid good wages relative to the wages in the country and treated fairly. You are one of those nutjobs man, I will know now not to pay attention to your posts. You are one crazy person, yes "all the time' multinational corporations those evil brits and americans put indigenous people in "torture chambers" hah this crap is laughable man. Nice source though, "inka cola" news.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 12:48 PM
people fight and kill each other on both sides, why is it about racism? You are wayyyyy too quick to throw that word around. You do not think the Indians are racist or what? All i see in that video is a bunch of people in the water and then some boxes that supposedly have dead people. Who knows where they are from?

oddlots
02-03-09, 02:13 PM
Way to quick to throw that word around? I don't think I've mentioned the word. In the present context, I believe this was the first mention of racism, yours: "I bet you are one of those people who think "only" whites can be racist?" Or that I'm on "a crusade to destroy whites."

But here's you on another thread:

"Raz, once you open your eyes and see what is going on its like wtf? I try to be as objectivist as possible. Want to hear a funny story?

I am sitting at this "event" at my university a few years back and this black commentator was discussing his book (about racism etc) or something like that. After he was finished a white student raises his hand and he is called on. He then says "I am sorry for racism and I apologize to you for that, I am sorry for what my ancestors did and I strive to make up for my racist past."

i was literally floored.... I couldnt stand it. This is the brainwashing of "white youths" in this country and if you want to read more about the white stigma of racism you need only read Shelby Steele. A black author by the way."

After your claim that "I have seen many "mobs" as that video calls them of Indians attacking whites in Santa Cruz" I suggested that you should cite a source. They've now become muggings? No source. (And BTW my point is not that there is or is not instances of racially motivated violence against whites, that indigenous people are somehow incapable of racism. My point is that the violence is not equally on "both sides" because Evo's party has no need to resort to violence, they have trounced the opposition in two elections, as suggested by the fact that the police were trying to avoid confrontations. If you were at all aware of what's been going on there over the past few years you would know that the violence is overwhelmingly from the opposition in the Media Luna.)

I have never accused you of racism. What I've accused you of is a lack of any outrage at racist motivated violence which is really what your "funny story" above illustrates. It's also illustrated by your flippant response to some of the most disturbing images of racial hatred I've ever seen. (Did you actually watch the video where a woman at an opposition rally refers to Indians as dogs.)

I've characterised the opposition movements in the Media Luna departments as instigators of racist hatred in its campaign against a democratically elected goverment.

I've asked for some reference to opposition parties in the Media Luna or leaders that are not tainted with associations to the actions described above. Some honourable, democratic opposition? I'm sure there are some and I'm sure they unequivocally condemned these shameful actions as did all of Latin America. Do you know of any?

So what does your first hand knowledge amount to? Not much, it would appear, since you don't seem to have heard of the Pando Massacre. The body count was 30 I believe, not one as you bizarrely claim:

"UNASUR's commission on the violent events of last September 11th in Pando, Bolivia presented their finding to Evo yesterday. The report is unequivical in its characterization of the campesino massacre and those responsible, the rightwing Prefectura of Leopoldo Fernandez. Eduardo Garcia of Reuters (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03320879.htm) gives you the straight story, or if you feel like sifting through the ugly details go read the report yourself (http://www.abi.bo/abi/banner_240_240/informe_unasur.pdf) (Spanish only)."

How can I know what kind of mine you would have? Because you think the suffering and humiliation of these people is a "joke."

As to the source, the writer of Inca Kola is an equity analyst who also writes on Latin American economics for Roubini's RGE Monitor. (You have failed to cite any references for any of your claims, respond to any requests for more detail on your position and you are questioning my sources?) As such, he covers Latin American mining stocks and owns and dicusses many. So do I. As someone who fully understands the importance of the sector to the region he decries the undeniable criminal actions documented in pictures in the link. There's nothing funny about it.

metalman
02-03-09, 02:26 PM
strong post, oddlots. thanks.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 02:49 PM
Here you go, Indian gangs lynching and killing people in la paz and this from 2 seconds of searching google....

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/34249


http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/mob-lynches-three-in-bolivia_10021755.html


what were you saying again? When I have more time I will bring you more. Who cares that a white bolivian calls an indian a dog? the insults go both ways, calling names is not "earth shattering"

No i was making an example that one person killing another is not considerd a massacre. That video just shows people in the water? it does not show people being massacred, I told you i would research it.

What is wrong with my post on another thread?? There is nothing wrong with that post kid. You dont have to call me a racist, I know exactly what you are suggesting. You are a very pathetic person who cannot be objective in this situation because you are not "on the ground" in bolivia to see the daily problems, marches, stabbings, robberies, killings etc. You are an ignorant american who firmly believes what a bunch of non accredited websites post.

Here is the christiansciencemonitor, hardly a far right organization or even right organization it is left of center with a pretty objective article on Bolivia.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1007/p09s01-coop.html

What would you do if the govnt was trying to take your land and destroy your way of life? Fight like the indians did when the spanish tried to do the same thing 450 years ago?

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 02:58 PM
another article on unsubstantiated claims from Pando

http://www.ww4report.com/node/6463

metalman
02-03-09, 03:04 PM
another article on unsubstantiated claims from Pando

http://www.ww4report.com/node/6463

what does it mean that russia isn't playing along? sending ships to venezuela? brazil arming? is the monroe doctrine over anyway?

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 03:15 PM
I have been reading several articles were 18 people were killed, 16 on the Government side and 2 on the opposition. STOP spreading lies about 30 people massacred on the govnt side and no killings on the other side.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 03:18 PM
Russia is supporting Venezuela and Bolivia in south america etc. I dont want this guy on here spreading propoganda. yes people were killed on BOTH sides in Pando and those were mestizos fighting the indians, mestizos are mixed european and indian. Only 15% of the bolivian population is White and 95% of that population is in Santa Cruz not the far far away area of Pando on the brasilian border.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 03:19 PM
I have been reading several articles were 18 people were killed, 16 on the Government side and 2 on the opposition. STOP spreading lies about 30 people massacred on the govnt side and no killings on the other side.

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 03:20 PM
Just because a government is democratically elected DOES NOT mean the country has democracy, Hitler was also democratically elected my dear son. Communism and socialism has killed FAR more than fascism has over the last 100 years, by millions of people!

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 03:35 PM
OHHH look at this ODD LOTS the video you posted of the PANDO massacre is guess what A FAKE!!!! check it out

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/bolivia/TE61R4BA16EUCH817

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/bolivia/TCPBK42QJ1AGHUMNT

Next time check you freakin sources and stop spreading propoganda!

Contemptuous
02-03-09, 03:43 PM
strong post, oddlots. thanks.

I'm curious Metalman. Why aren't you clamoring for the Bouncer to come over here and mete out some of his discipline? People getting accused to their face of racism, or people propounding overt racism, according to Oddlots assertion? Sounds all quite inflammatory and personal, eh? Oh, it must have slipped your mind that we have a new and essential "robocop" function here you've so warmly endorsed for such events.

But in my regard you've indulged in posting multiple comments about how essential that "moderation" was and how oppressive such posters are. Meanwhile I see a couple of fairly direct personal affronts in this thread, on both sides. Incidentally I also object to ProdigyOfZen being summarily labeled a "racist" here. He might be, but he might easily and quite plausibly also not be.

How the hell could anyone determine that credibly from this string of posts, eh? That's a fairly inflamed term, "racist" and his reaction is understandably inflamed in response. Being called a racist is somewhat more "inflaming" than being called a mere asshole. Meanwhile Metalman is sitting in the galleries contentedly munching peanuts and issuing kudos, entirely oblivious of his numerous injunctions yesterday and this morning that the new guidelines of mutual respect be observed at all times. :rolleyes:

In case I am misunderstood - I firmly ENDORSE the right of both Oddlots and ProdigyOfZen to give and take on even third rail subjects such as racism and to discuss these questions in detail, and with impunity, notably to not be under any "threat" from iTulip's new "cop". I don't like the "cop" idea, don't like the overbearing avatar notion to begin with, and I like it that both Oddlots and ProdigyOfZen can hash this out to their own satisfaction. Metalman, as you seem oblivious to the point unless it's placed under your nose - you employ double standards - likely in the service of your personal peeves, as your obliviousness to the "hot" polemics on this thread and sudden amnesia that this is a job for the robocop to "put the fires out" evidences.

"Putting the fires out" in a thread like this is censorship. Plain and simple. They can do it if they like, but I for one will strongly disapprove. I wish to register full support for these two posters having a no-holds-barred discussion to the best of their ability or interest on this, or any other topic. All the "muzzling in the interests of a more productive community" IMO is BS.

metalman
02-03-09, 03:47 PM
it's rant and rave. maybe it's the back alley behind the itulip bar and grill where they smoke and slap each other around. maybe the bouncer doesn't come out here.

Contemptuous
02-03-09, 03:51 PM
Fine, as it's rant and rave and you are sanctioning all of their direct repartee, allow me to suggest you get off the preacher's "good behavior and good manners" soap box for a while, just to give my headache some mild relief? Thanks.

metalman
02-03-09, 03:58 PM
Fine, as it's rant and rave and you are sanctioning all of their direct repartee, allow me to suggest you get off the preacher's "good behavior and good manners" soap box for a while, just to give my headache some mild relief? Thanks.

not sanctioning anything. who am i to sanction anything? it's an observation. for all i know the bouncer is still trying to figure it out, or the bouncer is fred, or a fred, and they haven't figured out if rant and rave is covered by the usual rules of conduct. if you want my opinion :) i'd say they should. if anyone wants to beat someone up in a forum, they can do it elsewhere, down the street, say, at the marketticker forum where they shit on each other all day long.

Contemptuous
02-03-09, 04:03 PM
they haven't figured out if rant and rave is covered by the usual rules of conduct. if you want my opinion :) i'd say they should. if anyone wants to beat someone up in a forum, they can do it elsewhere, down the street, say, at the marketticker forum where they shit on each other all day long.

Then clear out from this forum thread Metalman. This is the "breath of fresh air" area where people can discuss third rail topics without requriring your sanction of their endeavor. To me that is distinctly a breath of fresh air compared to your approach. You like to invoke the "don't like it then go elsewhere" mantra frequently. I've seen you offer that up to dissenters on several occasions and you do it without a second thought. "Smug and complacent" comes to my mind observing those displays. This thread is inappropriate for your standards of conduct. Leave it to some others of us who believe in unfettered free posting to endorse their complete freedom here. This thread's inflammatory topic is presumably "slumming it" for your high standards. What are you doing in here?

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 04:19 PM
Lukester thanks for the defense! I am just trying to be objective to this guys claims, I did not start the thread and I will not allow this "oddlots" to post propoganda about a certain people of Bolivia. As you can see my rebuttal of his claims destroyed his accusations. The video was a fake and he said it was true, he didnt do the research!

Now metalman goes and closes the thread because he realizes that I won the argument and his buddy oddlots lost.

I would like an apology but I won't get one. Again I reinterate I did not start this thread, I only uprooted and destroyed his inflammatory post and BS video and website "news" of Bolivia.

STOP THE PROPOGANDA!

oddlots
02-03-09, 04:27 PM
Re. your first link, the mob lynching was of a group alleged to be thieves. Race had nothing to do with it as far as I can tell.

Let me spell it out: I was asking for something to back up your claim that the violence was on "both sides" and specifically instances of Indian or indigenous-led racially charged violence against whites, as you suggested existed. My claim throughout has been that the opposition is the source of this violence with the explanation being that the elected government party - MAS - doesn't need violence, it's winning repeatedly at the polls. I was also suggesting that the preponderance of racially-motivated actions against Indians or Campesinos discredited the opposition and asked for a reference to a more respectable, reasoned expression of the opposition cause which you've failed to provide.

Instead, what do you provide is an example of vigilante justice in a village. Are you saying that "thieves" are a race? No? Are you perhaps jumping to the assumption that the thieves are white? :D I suspect not. Then why post it? Well... perhaps you should explain.

I am really interested in hearing a well-reasoned argument in justification of the opposition movement within the Media Luna. Have you got one?

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 04:32 PM
I just posted tons of stuff, read all my posts. YOUR VIDEO WAS A HOAX, stop spreading lies.....

oddlots
02-03-09, 04:40 PM
So Reuters is no good nor is UNASUR? But some web site called topix is?

Bolivia violence was massacre, says regional report
03 Dec 2008 18:21:30 GMT
<!-- 03 Dec 2008 18:21:30 GMT ## for search indexer, do not remove --> Source: Reuters

<!-- AN5.0 article title end --> <script language="JavaScript" src="http://www.alertnet.org/bin/js/article.js"></script> <input value="13" name="CurrentSize" id="CurrentSize" type="hidden"> <!-- Bolivia violence was massacre, says regional report --> <!-- Reuters --> By Eduardo Garcia LA PAZ, Dec 3 (Reuters) - A regional commission investigating the killings of at least 20 Bolivians during anti-government protests in September described the incident as a massacre on Wednesday. The Unasur group of South American nations vowed to probe the killings, which took place in an Amazon province as anti-government protesters attacked natural gas pipelines and stormed public buildings. The unrest flared during a bitter power struggle between leftist President Evo Morales and conservative rivals opposed to his drive to implement a new constitution. Unveiling his findings on behalf of the 12-member panel, commission head Rodolfo Mattarollo said some of the 20 mostly Morales supporters killed in Pando province were murdered. Mattarollo, an Argentine lawyer and Human Rights expert, said that some of the killers worked for Pando's opposition-controlled provincial government. "On Sept. 11 2008, in the village of Porvenir and other places in the Pando province, a massacre occurred," he said, presenting the commission's report in the presidential palace. As the turmoil raged in the sparsely-populated region near the Brazilian border, several South American leaders issued a statement of support for Morales and warned his opponents not to stir unrest in the natural-gas rich Andean nation. Morales, who called the protests an attempt to destabilize his government, welcomed the commission's findings. "It wasn't a clash, it was a massacre ... Conspiring against democracy, against people's lives, using terrorism ... it's not the best way," Morales said. His government declared martial law in Pando and arrested provincial Gov. Leopoldo Fernandez, accusing him of inspiring the violence. It lifted the state of siege late last month. (Editing by Alan Elsner)

ProdigyofZen
02-03-09, 04:43 PM
The video was made, it is fake, then the ENTIRE world jumped on it and quickly condemned fernandez. NOW all that is shown to be FALSE and there is no proof whatsoever that he had any part of it. This reminds me of the Duke lacross rape case.

You are so quick to jump on the racism bandwagon, stop being so guillible. Well do whatever you want, just believe in the propoganda. I dont care anymore you obviously dont see it.

Yes there were killings on both sides, in Pando BOTH SIDES Got killed!

Contemptuous
02-03-09, 05:01 PM
ProdigyOfZen8 - I am not taking any side. I know nothing about the details on the ground and don't have an opinion. I am defending your right to post on this topic and make your assertions, and I am defending the rights of the person who wishes to call you a racist if they can back it up with a proof, and your own right to call them anything you like, or pin their ears back and demonstrate them to be wrong, in any way you see fit.

I would like to defend the rights of any and all posters here to post whatever the f**ck they want without a nanny around who arrogates the right to make everyone wear a muzzle at someone elses' potentially arbitrary discretion. Don't like muzzles.

THERE! Now we have all mangled Don's original thread topic good and proper! Yessir! That's the beauty of unregulated arenas. They can grow and flower naturally. And thanks to Don for putting up patiently with all our various agendas. :D


Lukester thanks for the defense! I am just trying to be objective to this guys claims, I did not start the thread and I will not allow this "oddlots" to post propoganda about a certain people of Bolivia. As you can see my rebuttal of his claims destroyed his accusations. The video was a fake and he said it was true, he didnt do the research!

Now metalman goes and closes the thread because he realizes that I won the argument and his buddy oddlots lost.

I would like an apology but I won't get one. Again I reinterate I did not start this thread, I only uprooted and destroyed his inflammatory post and BS video and website "news" of Bolivia.

STOP THE PROPOGANDA!

The Bouncer
02-03-09, 05:10 PM
ProdigyOfZen8 - I am not taking any side. I know nothing about the details on the ground and don't have an opinion. I am defending your right to post on this topic and make your assertions, and I am defending the rights of the person who wishes to call you a racist if they can back it up with a proof, and your own right to call them anything you like, or pin their ears back and demonstrate them to be wrong, in any way you see fit.

I would like to defend the rights of any and all posters here to post whatever the f**ck they want without a nanny around who arrogates the right to make everyone wear a muzzle at someone elses' potentially arbitrary discretion. Don't like muzzles.

THERE! Now we have all mangled Don's original thread topic good and proper! Yessir! That's the beauty of unregulated arenas. They can grow and flower naturally. And thanks to Don for putting up patiently with all our various agendas. :D

The iTulip.com mutual respect rule holds here in Rant and Rave. This is a private club. You are a guest here. Behave yourself.

Contemptuous
02-03-09, 05:13 PM
The iTulip.com mutual respect rule holds here in Rant and Rave. This is a private club. You are a guest here. Behave yourself.

Yes. Please point out the misbehavior in this thread insofar as I have contributed to any?

metalman
02-03-09, 05:31 PM
Yes. Please point out the misbehavior in this thread insofar as I have contributed to any?

that's the way... test his authority. see how far you have to push him before he bounces you.

cracking open a beer now... kicking back to watch the show.

oddlots
02-03-09, 10:51 PM
Ok, so what's my contribution to this debacle? And how do we as rational people agree to disagree?

My contribution:

- baiting Prodigy after he suggested that he could go down and "Maybe... try and get a company started to grab some of that land! But of course I would pay the natives a handsome sum for rights to the land."
- baiting Prodigy again after his first attack on me as some sort of anti-white racist with the suggestion that he would run his mine along the lines of Montericco minerals

In My Defense:

- I have consistently asked for a reasoned argument against Morales' policies from the very beginning
- I never made the charge of racism against Prodigy though he assumed I had. (I certainly made the charge - "racist a-holes" - against the people depicted in the news segments documenting racist violence and stick by that characterisation. What other interpretation is possible?)
- I have consistently cited sources.
- I have consistently said that I assume that there is a good argument to be made against Morales' policies that is distinct from and only diminished by the racist violence I cited and asked for this to be expanded upon.

An attempt at reconcilaition:

What set me off was Prodigy's suggestion that he could "grab" some land down there and profit from this. If I've learned anything from investing in this sphere it's that foreign investors are guests in these countries. The only argument, for example, for Canadian listed companies operating in this sphere having any legitimacy is that they have a) better access to capital markets and 2) years of experience in extractive industries. The deposit itself is surely a national resource that must be managed sensibly and pay out to the citizens of that country as well as to the investors. These companies must wait with forebearance on a decision from a democratically elected government on policy just as they would have to in Norway or Canada or anywhere else with a well developed civil society. The idea that someone with no apparent expertise in the industry can somehow assume he has a right to buy up mineral rights just because he has the capital without presenting any credentials to show he can effectively develop them seems crazy to me. I really think that you should look up the term "economic rent" Prodigy.

This is what I should have said to Prodigy off the batt.

But I didn't. The rest is less than history. For my part in it, I apologise to both Prodigy and the rest of the community.

oddlots
02-03-09, 11:22 PM
Re-post of what I put in an earlier thread:

Ok, so what's my contribution to this debacle? And how do we as rational people agree to disagree?

My contribution:

- baiting Prodigy after he suggested that he could go down and "Maybe... try and get a company started to grab some of that land! But of course I would pay the natives a handsome sum for rights to the land."
- baiting Prodigy again after his first attack on me as some sort of anti-white racist with the suggestion that he would run his mine along the lines of Montericco minerals

In My Defense:

- I have consistently asked for a reasoned argument against Morales' policies from the very beginning
- I never made the charge of racism against Prodigy though he assumed I had. (I certainly made the charge - "racist a-holes" - against the people depicted in the news segments documenting racist violence and stick by that characterisation. What other interpretation is possible?)
- I have consistently cited sources.
- I have consistently said that I assume that there is a good argument to be made against Morales' policies that is distinct from and only diminished by the racist violence I cited and asked for this to be expanded upon.

An attempt at reconcilaition:

What set me off was Prodigy's suggestion that he could "grab" some land down there and profit from this. If I've learned anything from investing in this sphere it's that foreign investors are guests in these countries. The only argument, for example, for Canadian listed companies operating in this sphere having any legitimacy is that they have a) better access to capital markets and 2) years of experience in extractive industries. The deposit itself is surely a national resource that must be managed sensibly and pay out to the citizens of that country as well as to the investors. These companies must wait with forebearance on a decision from a democratically elected government on policy just as they would have to in Norway or Canada or anywhere else with a well developed civil society. The idea that someone with no apparent expertise in the industry can somehow assume he has a right to buy up mineral rights just because he has the capital without presenting any credentials to show he can effectively develop them seems crazy to me. I really think that you should look up the term "economic rent" Prodigy.

This is what I should have said to Prodigy off the batt.

But I didn't. The rest is less than history. For my part in it, I apologise to both Prodigy and the rest of the community.

Contemptuous
02-04-09, 02:05 AM
Thought you put up some good posts and ProdigyOfZen did also. Good solid discusion, wandering perilously towards the million volt "third rail". Gets everyone's pulse rate up and makes their synapses fire on critical issues about ethics. I find nothing to fault in the entire discussion. But the Fred character gets antsy when topics wander over towards the third rail because "this is a finance/econ site" and so it got bunted over to the very slummiest portion of rant & rave which is called "Political Abyss" (can't you just see that sleazy red neon light flashing over the disreputable looking basement door?).

If I were you guys, I would not feel that you "did something bad" to have the discussion moved "down" here. It's just a predilection of the editors that if topics wander into live wire issues they tend to shunt them down here for fear that they will get a brush fire on the main pages, which "really wouldn't do", would it? I thought you guys posted some good stuff - but the editorial line considers it crap. That's why it winds up here! :D God bless their pointy little heads. Oops I'm not supposed to say stuff like that. Now I'm gonna catch hell.

BTW - don't apologize. You guys are "sparring" and many times you can find the person you disagreed most bitterly with will find other views in common with you later. The apology ruins the eventual spontaneous discovery of points in common. ;)


Re-post of what I put in an earlier thread:

Ok, so what's my contribution to this debacle? And how do we as rational people agree to disagree?

My contribution:

- baiting Prodigy after he suggested that he could go down and "Maybe... try and get a company started to grab some of that land! But of course I would pay the natives a handsome sum for rights to the land."
- baiting Prodigy again after his first attack on me as some sort of anti-white racist with the suggestion that he would run his mine along the lines of Montericco minerals

In My Defense:

- I have consistently asked for a reasoned argument against Morales' policies from the very beginning
- I never made the charge of racism against Prodigy though he assumed I had. (I certainly made the charge - "racist a-holes" - against the people depicted in the news segments documenting racist violence and stick by that characterisation. What other interpretation is possible?)
- I have consistently cited sources.
- I have consistently said that I assume that there is a good argument to be made against Morales' policies that is distinct from and only diminished by the racist violence I cited and asked for this to be expanded upon.

An attempt at reconcilaition:

What set me off was Prodigy's suggestion that he could "grab" some land down there and profit from this. If I've learned anything from investing in this sphere it's that foreign investors are guests in these countries. The only argument, for example, for Canadian listed companies operating in this sphere having any legitimacy is that they have a) better access to capital markets and 2) years of experience in extractive industries. The deposit itself is surely a national resource that must be managed sensibly and pay out to the citizens of that country as well as to the investors. These companies must wait with forebearance on a decision from a democratically elected government on policy just as they would have to in Norway or Canada or anywhere else with a well developed civil society. The idea that someone with no apparent expertise in the industry can somehow assume he has a right to buy up mineral rights just because he has the capital without presenting any credentials to show he can effectively develop them seems crazy to me. I really think that you should look up the term "economic rent" Prodigy.

This is what I should have said to Prodigy off the batt.

But I didn't. The rest is less than history. For my part in it, I apologise to both Prodigy and the rest of the community.