is FBAR for offshore Gold storage accounts?

[serge_oc]

What is FBAR:

"
Report on Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts


If you have a financial interest in any foreign bank accounts, or if you had signature or other authority, but no financial interest in any foreign bank accounts, you may need to file an additional form with the government.

If the total of all your foreign bank and financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the year, you must complete a Report on Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts, Form TD F 90-22.1.

This form is due on June 30th of each succeeding year and there is no provision for extension regardless of whether or not you filed an extension."

The penalties for not reporting FBAR involve seizing 50% of assets in questions (amongst other things). So even if there is no tax involved (but you don't report what you should have), it seems IRS can ask foreign governments to declare you a criminal and send a check in the value of 50% of your holdings, even if you have paid all your taxes (just for not reporting)!!

In the US, does FBAR reporting apply to purely gold storage programs, such as Bullion Vault or Perth Mint Certificate Program?

I am asking this here, because IRS is vague on this, and after asking 4 CPAs I get different answers (don't know, maybe, no and yes)??

I can imagine GoldMoney being reportable, as it looks like a financial account. However, aforementioned (BV and PMCP) do not appear to be financial accounts, but rather storage programs. You can't use them to pay anything, you can just store gold and eventually liquidate.

Any Itulip user from the US having an opinion on this (or experience)?

This seems important to me, as it can be used to appropriate (steal) massive amount of wealth from US citizens who have foreign accounts, even from those who pay taxes religiously. Just on the account of 'not reporting'..... Good way to narrow the deficit...

[Lukester]

Serge - the answer is "yes" on all counts. I filed this past year for both conventional accts. and bullion accounts. Perth Mint, Goldmoney, Bullion Vault and reg. bank accts. This is most decidedly NOT something to get cute about. One or two people may hesitate for a year or two figuring they can "change their minds later" and they can get into a really bad bind merely from procrastination.

That's unless you are a Senator who's just been picked for US government office of course - in that case you have some "leeway" to file late. :rolleyes:

What is FBAR:
"
Report on Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts


If you have a financial interest in any foreign bank accounts, or if you had signature or other authority, but no financial interest in any foreign bank accounts, you may need to file an additional form with the government.

If the total of all your foreign bank and financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the year, you must complete a Report on Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts, Form TD F 90-22.1.

This form is due on June 30th of each succeeding year and there is no provision for extension regardless of whether or not you filed an extension."
The penalties for not reporting FBAR involve seizing 50% of assets in questions (amongst other things). So even if there is no tax involved (but you don't report what you should have), it seems IRS can ask foreign governments to declare you a criminal and send a check in the value of 50% of your holdings, even if you have paid all your taxes (just for not reporting)!!

In the US, does FBAR reporting apply to purely gold storage programs, such as Bullion Vault or Perth Mint Certificate Program?

I am asking this here, because IRS is vague on this, and after asking 4 CPAs I get different answers (don't know, maybe, no and yes)??

I can imagine GoldMoney being reportable, as it looks like a financial account. However, aforementioned (BV and PMCP) do not appear to be financial accounts, but rather storage programs. You can't use them to pay anything, you can just store gold and eventually liquidate.

Any Itulip user from the US having an opinion on this (or experience)?

This seems important to me, as it can be used to appropriate (steal) massive amount of wealth from US citizens who have foreign accounts, even from those who pay taxes religiously. Just on the account of 'not reporting'..... Good way to narrow the deficit...

[raja]

Serge - the answer is "yes" on all counts. I filed this past year for both conventional accts. and bullion accounts. Perth Mint, Goldmoney, Bullion Vault and reg. bank accts. This is most decidedly NOT something to get cute about. One or two people may hesitate for a year or two figuring they can "change their minds later" and they can get into a really bad bind merely from procrastination.

That's unless you are a Senator who's just been picked for US government office of course - in that case you have some "leeway" to file late. :rolleyes:
Would this apply to CEF and GTU????

[serge_oc]

Lukester, thanks for the reply, I just recently learned about this and got the 'deer in the headlight' feeling about myself, as this is something I totally didn't know about but seems to have consequences and then some.

The FAQ on irs site is here:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html

Raja, Look under 'What is financial account' for more info. If that doesn't help you, maybe someone else would know...

[Lukester]

I would do it for everything Raja. If I were in your situation, with a nice farm, some ducks and chickens and a cow, a solar equipped home and a wonderful retirement, I'd make my peace with this a lot more easily than I have while still mired in life as a working stiff. Just do it for everything and bite the bullet. Your farm and happy retirement is the most wonderful consolation.

[tastymannatees]

I bought my GTU and CEF off of the AMEX so would it be counted as US securities.

The gold storage vaults are well... simply storage vaults to my thinking. Gold is a commodity like steel or lead. If I had some lead in in storage in a warehouse in Mexico would not meet the reporting requirement. Some googling seems to support that view.

Of course I would report any loss or gain on a sale to the IRS. I'll do some more checking but seems a stretch

[Lukester]

The gold storage vaults are well... simply storage vaults to my thinking. Gold is a commodity like steel or lead. If I had some lead in in storage in a warehouse in Mexico would not meet the reporting requirement.

Nice try tastymannatees. But no cigar. :D The gold is overwhelmingly likely to be considered "munny" just like a foreign checking acct.

[tastymannatees]

And if I sell it to an electronics manufacturer for making components? or a jewelery company in India? It's taxed as a "collectible" which defines it by the government as a non financial instrument. Does not seem to meet the means test in the who must file section. IMO

GTU and CEF are financial Instruments and are taxed as so as per my accountant and I own that in the US.

Not to say that next week they might change the definition but for now I log onto Bloomberg and get my quotes in the commodities next to oil and pork bellies. Applying the "walks like a duck" template is a better fit.

The gold is overwhelmingly likely to be considered "munny" just like a foreign checking acct.


"likely" in the future in not what is required today. Some laws you can make retroactive. I do not think this is one of them.

It's kinda like the IRS audit to me where your accountant tells you not to give any info that's not asked for otherwise you give them permission to dig into other aspects of your finances.

Why give them a right they do not have? If they change the definition I will comply..I am not hiding anything besides my US broker where I have my Perth account probably has filed all relevant info on customers accounts with the government anyway.

[Lukester]

Tastymannatees -

Whose side do you think I'm on - yours, or theirs? :D

[tastymannatees]

LOL -one truly never knows...as they say only the paranoid survive