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EJ
11-04-08, 02:58 PM
Vote for Obama. Here's why.

My role at iTulip is primarily to provide leadership to our community. John Kenneth Galbraith once said that the essence of leadership is “the willingness to confront unequivocally the major anxiety of their people in their time.” I cannot on this election day shy from that obligation.

As a group we are socially liberal but fiscally conservative, and so have misgivings about both candidates. As contrarians we are not joiners but skeptics, so we do not readily join popular campaigns.

We are keenly aware that without the profit motive and strong enforcement of property rights the world would not now be enjoying many of the great inventions that US inventors and entrepreneurs have bestowed upon the world over the past century. Millions come to America to engage our culture of risk taking, tolerance for failure in the attempt to create a better life and to achieve wealth, with few guarantees but the promise of simple justice and minimal interference from government.

We are also aware that we stand at the precipice of economic catastrophe, if indeed we have not already fallen off it. Decades of politically convenient yet fallacious utopian economic theory executed by institutions corrupted by money, conferred on them by unfettered credit creation, laid the foundation this ongoing debacle. Both political parties engaged in it, to our great sorrow. There is no avoiding a period of expanded government spending to get America through its transition to an economy based on saving and investment versus borrowing and consumption, but we must choose our programs wisely; in this new world we have little money to waste on ad hoc fiscal stimulus.

Not only America’s but economies across Asia and Europe are in or are entering recession as I write, from China to Greece to Brazil, as fallout from a financial crisis that started in the USA in 2007 circles the globe.

Every nation will soon be coping with the political strife that arises from economic hardship. Demands for solutions at home cause nations to withdraw from the international sphere in times of economic crisis, complicating and frustrating diplomacy and thwarting cooperation among nations to address the global crisis, potentially accelerating the downturn.

We are in debt to ourselves and to other nations, and from this unfortunate starting position we face the necessity of expanded government spending to prevent the US and world economy from devolving into a global depression in a series of self-reinforcing feedback loops of declining demand, output, income, savings, investment, and trade as occurred in the 1930s.

We have not faced a more dangerous economic and political period since the 1930s. Wars have started with far less pretext.

The imperfections in the positions of Barack Obama and John McCain are vastly amplified by these grave circumstances. However, there is little doubt which of the two candidates is the best prepared with the education, emotional intelligence, judgment, and leadership skills to bring us through this period.

All this most of you know; I have not yet faced the major anxiety of our people in our time but few express: race. I will do so by quoting a posting we received today by a new member who has not participated on our forums before. It is intelligently argued and I suspect shared by more people than care to express it. I believe the sentiment he expresses is 100% wrong, but I appreciate his willingness to share it and give me this opportunity to address it. He said:
In 1994, 70% of [white South African voters] drank the white liberal kool aid and voted themselves into the political minority on the promise that if they would just stop being racists, the future would be all about merit and equality and reconciliation. Instead they now find themselves under siege, legally discriminated against in jobs, prohibited from owning more than 49% of their own family businesses (they have to find a black person to give 51% to), the victims of rampant crime, rape, and murder (with a 2-3% rate of solving the murders). The famous white South Africa liberal writers whose writings contributed to ending apartheid are moving away to Australia and Europe. They have seen firsthand what they did to their own people and now they are running away. Nice for them, not so nice for the people who can't afford to leave.

But you never hear about South Africa anymore. White western liberals prefer not to think about what has happened there in the wake of the adoption of their reform program. Or in Zimbabwe. There is a slow-motion anti-white genocide unfolding there, but it doesn't fit the liberal script so it's not discussed.

So we are in an era where young white people have been indoctrinated for the last several decades in their schools and in the mass media that the history of whites is shameful and that they must never think in terms of race - while blacks, Latinos, and others openly identify with their own ethnic groups and interests, openly speak of themselves as a people based solely on race, openly push for special considerations based solely on race rather than merit. So we are going to have to go through the fire here, until young white people reach an age where they are trying to raise a family in safety with decent schools and without racial discrimination against whites.

They say a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. There's a whole generation of young whites who have a lot of muggings coming their way. Right now they are in the full flush of youthful passion and idealism, scornful of older people (i.e. people with significant life experience) and sure that they have discovered new amazing truths that old fools can't see.

The easy conclusion is that there will probably never be a more disillusioned generation of people in American history than the generation of young whites who are voting for Obama. By the time they are in their middle age they will shake their heads sadly that they could have been so wrong.
My response:

America is not South Africa.

South Africa cannot divorce itself from the infection of corruption that dominates the institutions of so many African nations that lack American's heritage and history, and our legal system and culture. American ideals, not always fulfilled, blotted with ugly exceptions and imperfections, are always there as a measure of the nation's goals. With no abiding legal or institutional framework to achieve them, and a history of domination by foreign powers, in Africa hopes for freedom and prosperity are confined to the people's hearts.

In the USA our corruption problem is not race based, although race is a feature of some of our institutional failures. Our overriding corruption problem centers on flaws in our money, banking, and financial systems, and the way these influence and are influenced by our political system. Our polity is systemically corrupt, whereas Africa's is venally corrupt. While Obama is not 100% independent from the influence of financial groups, he is the most independent of the two candidates.

Barack Obama represents the American ideal, an expression of the best of American culture and simultaneously a rejection of the dying culture of dependency and self-defeatism that kept many blacks in America behind other races that came to America and flourished over the centuries. That self-destructive culture was an echo of slavery, rebounding off America like a cry of pain and anger that reinforced division, prejudice, and failure with despondency and fear. Little noticed to many, that culture has been fading out for 20 years as the latest generation of Americans, more race-blind than their parents, focus on more important matters in a globally competitive world: education, skills, cooperation, teamwork.

Rather than ushering in an era of race-based corruption as the writer fears, the very opposite will occur if Obama is elected. The last vestiges of the culture of self-defeatism can at last own failures and deal with prejudice as other races, creeds and nationalities have in America, by adopting the American culture of hard work and sacrifice and joining the ranks of the achieved where no one cares what color you are.

A final note to address the other great anxiety among our readers, that Barack Obama intends to “redistribute wealth.” I admit that as an entrepreneur I find some of Obama's rhetoric disturbing. But I do not believe that he intends to kill the goose that laid the golden egg: the motivation of American entrepreneurs to take enormous risks, work absurd hours, and sacrifice all other aspects of life to build innovative businesses and wealth. I have faith that he can distinguish between taxation of financial versus productive risk. The former takes from society by extracting rents, the latter gives to society by increasing productivity. Even if he does not, raising taxes on productive risk is an error that can be corrected, either in real-time or after the fact.

Here is the heart of the matter. The election of Obama can finish off the last remains of a cursed period in American's past. Obama may be more likely to tax wealth, but he is less likely than McCain–with his limited grasp of economics and tendency to surround himself with less than highly qualified counsel–to engage in war to relieve our economic suffering. With the world’s greatest military behind him that temptation will be powerful for our next president.

Misguided taxation is a recoverable error, a new war at this stage in America’s history will be fatal.

One piece of advice for Obama should he win the election and read this: begin to set very low expectations well before you get into office. You will not be able to turn the economy around in your first year no matter what you do, so buy yourself another by leveling with the American people straight away:

We’re in for a long, tough transition to a new economy. Good luck.

p.s. My preference was for Andrew Jackson, but he wasn't on the ballot.
"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves." - Andrew Jackson

c1ue
11-04-08, 03:23 PM
I hope Obama lives up to his potential, as opposed to living down to his donors.

But I fear from a risk management standpoint, both upside and downside of Obama being President will be magnified due to the Congressional majority his party will hold.

Any room for substantive debate is likely to be lost - and thus we will be left with no alternative but hoping for the best.

we_are_toast
11-04-08, 03:46 PM
Congratulations EJ,
Very nicely expressed.

I am sure that Senator Obama appreciates your endorsement. If you should choose to endorse a candidate in the future, you might want to consider endorsing a little earlier than half way through the day of the election.:)

FRED
11-04-08, 03:57 PM
Congratulations EJ,
Very nicely expressed.

I am sure that Senator Obama appreciates your endorsement. If you should choose to endorse a candidate in the future, you might want to consider endorsing a little earlier than half way through the day of the election.:)

Fair criticism but we've been a tad busy: Janszen on NPR Marketplace Nov. 4 at 6:30PM ET (http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6275)

phirang
11-04-08, 04:13 PM
Obama isn't a good choice. He's the less crappy of many other bad choices.

It's like a condemned man exulting in his fortune when he learns he'll be shot instead of drawn and quartered.

I'm more interested to learn about a forthcoming VAT, tax increases, more SS taxes, and of course massive keynsian efforts planned by people who've never had a real job.

As for reindustrialization, who's going to pay for that? Maybe get some of Stanely O'neal and Paulson's plunder... oh, wait, they gave Obama money.

whoops.

nathanhulick
11-04-08, 04:22 PM
Obama and McCain are two wings of the same party. Until more people are willing to "throw away their vote" by voting for a third party candidate who represents them, the majority of voters will "throw away their vote" by voting the lessor of two evils.

WDCRob
11-04-08, 04:37 PM
But I fear from a risk management standpoint, both upside and downside of Obama being President will be magnified due to the Congressional majority his party will hold.

Too true. He better be good, because he's going to get most or all of what he wants.

phirang
11-04-08, 04:42 PM
Well, taxes are going up, and more useless solar farms will get built.

We can finally start trading pig farts for coal CO2, too!

yay!

grapejelly
11-04-08, 04:44 PM
well, I completely disagree. Cast your vote by not voting. There is no real choice. As Justin Raimondo says, it's two candidates each from the War Party.

There are no limits to what Washington can do with either party. No constitution. Screw that.

Stay home and cast your vote against the Machine.

WDCRob
11-04-08, 04:50 PM
As long as the Dems and Republicans receive preferential treatment under election law there will never be a viable third party candidate.

And you will always see one or both parties co-opt any electorally meaningful position adopted by a third party candidate.

The reason both parties are relatively similar is they're both fighting over the same 10-15% of the electorate that's truly independent. Stray too from the middle and you end up like the Democrats after the 1970s, or like the Republicans after... ummmm... today.

chris49
11-04-08, 04:51 PM
I'm surprised no one (that I've heard) has pointed out the distinction between wealth and income.

Senators have wealth (homes, munis, portfolios, gold etc.) Buffet has wealth...Soros wealth...Bush's...Clintons...you get the picture.

The "wealth" that Obama wants to redistribute away from those wealthy 250k/yr "rich people" is called income. I suspect no ituliper will confuse 250k/yr (maybe going lower everyday) with being "wealthy".

With that said, why not confiscate some of the true "wealth" (take a few ski homes and beach houses) of those evil capitalists and redistribute that? If you truly believe in redistribution, why not start at the top? I know why...you know why...just venting.

Also, why don't we insist that all our redistributionist pols start making voluntary "Patriotic Contributions". If they believe it's so beneficial, lead by example!

We have been set up...I can't see how this ends well.

ASH
11-04-08, 04:58 PM
Obama may be more likely to tax wealth, but he is less likely than McCain–with his limited grasp of economics and tendency to surround himself with less than highly qualified counsel–to engage in war to relieve our economic suffering.

In my opinion, the present financial crisis is not the crisis, but the opener prior to the main event -- which is the demographic entitlement crisis. Senator McCain has at least spoken of the present system being unfair to the younger generations, has specifically spoken about the problem presented by the Trust Funds (which is to say that they are IOUs backed by future taxation rather than saved resources), and has said that "everything" needs to be on the table to address the problem. I don't believe that Senator Obama has addressed this issue with anything approaching that level of candor -- he has talked about raising taxes on high-earners to address Social Security funding shortfalls, but has not presented any sort of plan for how to pay for Medicare (the bigger problem) and, as far as I can tell, hasn't once mentioned the problem with the Trust Funds. Senator Obama has been resolute in promising seniors that their benefits will not be cut and the retirement age will not be increased, while suggesting that the only sacrifice which will be required is a tax increase on the top 3% of earners, and ignoring the pressure Trust Fund redemptions will put on discretionary spending. What kind of economic leadership is that?

I'm not saying that Senator McCain is good on economic issues, but I think it strains credulity to believe that Senator Obama has a realistic or constructive grasp of our economic problems, either (or the political courage required to address them, at any rate). I don't at all agree with EJ's assessment that a McCain Presidency would increase the likelihood of wider war (I see the US as constrained by manpower, money, and domestic public opinion at this point -- we're overextended, and Mr. "we need more troops" is therefore both unlikely and unable to spread us thinner). Frankly, I think if one is making the Republican vs. Democrat choice this year, it's all about differences in emphasis (which favored industries get fiscal stimulus) and cultural issues like EJ's point about race. Neither of these guys is terrible (relative to major party candidates in past elections), and neither of these guys is great (relative to the problems we face).

That's my $0.02 -- but, you know, I only get one vote.

ASH
11-04-08, 05:02 PM
Obama isn't a good choice. He's the less crappy of many other bad choices.

It's like a condemned man exulting in his fortune when he learns he'll be shot instead of drawn and quartered.

Very well put.

phirang
11-04-08, 05:03 PM
I'm surprised no one (that I've heard) has pointed out the distinction between wealth and income.

Senators have wealth (homes, munis, portfolios, gold etc.) Buffet has wealth...Soros wealth...Bush's...Clintons...you get the picture.

The "wealth" that Obama wants to redistribute away from those wealthy 250k/yr "rich people" is called income. I suspect no ituliper will confuse 250k/yr (maybe going lower everyday) with being "wealthy".

With that said, why not confiscate some of the true "wealth" (take a few ski homes and beach houses) of those evil capitalists and redistribute that? If you truly believe in redistribution, why not start at the top? I know why...you know why...just venting.

Also, why don't we insist that all our redistributionist pols start making voluntary "Patriotic Contributions". If they believe it's so beneficial, lead by example!

We have been set up...I can't see how this ends well.

Dunno... maybe EJ is trying to suck up to the new Dear Leader to get bonus points or something.

What I DO know is that the Kennedy family is very pro-Obama, and considering that JFK had the cohones to take on the Fed, we do have some hope there. People rag on Ted Kennedy, but the Kennedy family is generally a patriotic, good family. Perhaps Obama will show his spine and make hard decisions. It's very difficult to know.

There's also hope before a firing squad, too....

phirang
11-04-08, 05:05 PM
Frankly, a victorious war where we have the conquered finance our spending would not only solve short/medium terms stimulus issues but also allow the US to refinance and start anew.

I hate saying it, but the reason people support war is that is passes the credit risk from one group of worthless proles to another.:D

ASH
11-04-08, 05:25 PM
Frankly, a victorious war where we have the conquered finance our spending would not only solve short/medium terms stimulus issues but also allow the US to refinance and start anew.

I hate saying it, but the reason people support war is that is passes the credit risk from one group of worthless proles to another.:D

Who do you suppose we could conquer who would be able to finance our spending?

For that matter, I think it would make much more sense to "tax" the other nations of the world to use "our" oceans for freight and commerce. If you conquer a hostile country, you have to maintain a large land force, and it is too easy for the "conquered" to wear you down and deny you the economic fruits of conquest through guerrilla warfare. A naval piracy/protection racket has many advantages over territorial conquest. It is much harder to wage asymmetric warfare at sea (at least outside of ports), and the US has a major blue water naval advantage right now. You aren't occupying a country, so you don't have to expend time and resources trying to run it. Neither do you have to worry much about bases or supply lines, or raising a lot of manpower.

Seriously, though -- as I've posted before, I don't think wars of conquest are in our future. I'm not advocating the naval scheme, either. It's just that I'm warped enough to enjoy thinking about such schemes.

Slimprofits
11-04-08, 05:31 PM
and considering that JFK had the cohones to take on the Fed

I don't want to drag the thread off course, but is this a reference to E.O. 11110?

Check your private messages.

D-Mack
11-04-08, 05:44 PM
Dunno... maybe EJ is trying to suck up to the new Dear Leader to get bonus points or something.

What I DO know is that the Kennedy family is very pro-Obama, and considering that JFK had the cohones to take on the Fed, we do have some hope there. People rag on Ted Kennedy, but the Kennedy family is generally a patriotic, good family. Perhaps Obama will show his spine and make hard decisions. It's very difficult to know.

There's also hope before a firing squad, too....

I think they (finance oligarchy) have too much dirt on Obama, he can't make a 180° turn like JFK did. Obama is a creation just like Jimmy Carter.

metalman
11-04-08, 05:45 PM
Very well put.

it's not about that. it's a choice between a lefty and a nutjob and his nuttier sidekick.

i voted for kerry, if you can believe that.

I HATE KERRY

but years later after bush did as bush does i'd be able to say, don't blame me. i didn't vote for the idiot. kerry could not have been worse. no one could be worse.

same deal with mccain. no one thinks he can win this election but that's bs. of course he can win. stop watching tv. that's for california and ny. most of america thinks obama's cabinet will look like thabo mbeki's and obama will be driving around in a long, black limo with red, yellow and green flags on it with huge body guards in fatigues pointing guns out the back... and those the only guns allowed in the usa.

if mccain gets elected and years from now we're looking at pictures of russia invading poland because mccain threatened putin after a fight with his wife, while palin drives around in a long, black limo with red, white and blue flags on it with guns pointing out the back, i'll be able to say... don't look at me.

that said, i don't hate obama. he's competent. that'll be nice for a change.

metalman
11-04-08, 05:53 PM
Dunno... maybe EJ is trying to suck up to the new Dear Leader to get bonus points or something.

What I DO know is that the Kennedy family is very pro-Obama, and considering that JFK had the cohones to take on the Fed, we do have some hope there. People rag on Ted Kennedy, but the Kennedy family is generally a patriotic, good family. Perhaps Obama will show his spine and make hard decisions. It's very difficult to know.

There's also hope before a firing squad, too....

comrad phirang,

ej trying to get a libertarian voice in edgewise, or keep a foot in the door as it closes... or whatever metaphor you want to use?

last capitalist standing?

don't hear him changing his opinions for our new leader.

ASH
11-04-08, 06:11 PM
it's not about that. it's a choice between a lefty and a nutjob and his nuttier sidekick.

I disagree about McCain or Obama being nutjobs. That said, I couldn't get past McCain's nutty sidekick (I actually felt rather betrayed by her selection), and I perceive Obama as being articulate and bright and clean (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/) -- albeit not responsive to my political interests -- so I voted for him despite my misgivings.

hayekvindicated
11-04-08, 06:14 PM
America is a nation in serious decline. The choice between Obama and McCain represents the severity of that decline. An Obama presidency will be a disaster (and a two term Presidency would be a catastrophe). McCain's would be no different.

That choice of candidates demonstrates the shallowness of American leadership. I am now completely convinced of the ascendancy of Chinese power to supremacy in this century. American power and its Empire are in its death throes. It will be finished.

I'm not anti-American. The decline of America will have severe consequences for many nations. But it is something that real statesmen will recognise and learn to adapt to.

don
11-04-08, 06:22 PM
A President Obama brings several things to the US table, besides the obvious one of not being Bush.

For African Americans it could not be a bigger event. Think Irish-Catholic Kennedy times a million. Good for them, they have it coming, and I sincerely hope that an Obama administration isn't a setup for retrograde racism. The freed slaves and freemen that participated in Reconstruction politics were made to look like buffoons, baboons being the caricature of choice. Obama may have enough intelligence and charisma to avoid being ridiculed for the financial depression he'll probably be blamed for.

I do think Eric may be right in the qualitative milestone the US may be reaching in finally swallowing a chunk of our domestic racism. I remember when we had our first African American mayor of a big city, Detroit I believe, and it took a while to have another. Fits and starts is more like it. Now, who cares?

With this in mind, I asked my wife last night where she thought America is going? To a better national mental health or closer to a roaring national schizophrenia. Racism has been a key to empire forever, brought to a fine point by Kipling's White Man's Burden, a paean to America joining the imperialist poker game, and I don't see that being given up. Gooks, Hadjis...we all know the drill of the Other. Maybe acceptance of African Americans at last, during the downsizing of Pax Americana, a most dangerous time, will prove to be another American Exceptionalism.

If America is going to re-adjust its global reach with less military adventurism and more economic and diplomatic arm twisting, you couldn't ask for a better presidential face to put on it than Obama's. He would be a novelty and a relief to Europe, and in the Third World, forget about it. Of course he might also invade Pakistan or Syria.

An Obama presidency is inherently watchable. Who could help it, at least initially. As watchable as a McCain victory would be forgettable.

metalman
11-04-08, 06:24 PM
I disagree about McCain or Obama being nutjobs. That said, I couldn't get past McCain's nutty sidekick (I actually felt rather betrayed by her selection), and I perceive Obama as being articulate and bright and clean (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/) -- albeit not responsive to my political interests -- so I voted for him despite my misgivings.

and competent.

his choice of palin proves how incompetent he is.

how much irreparable damage can mccain do in 4 years? a lot more than obama can.

i'll take a competent socialist over a half-committed libertarian bumbler heading into a depression, putin, the saudis, et al.

did you see the opec's opening salvo? oil up 10% ... today! :eek:

so who controls the money supply?

rros
11-04-08, 07:04 PM
Thank you, Eric! You put into eloquent words most of my thinking. I am one who came to this country just for the reasons you have described in relation to America. Trying to emulate my grandfather and his epic life after he was forced to move from Europe to South America at the turn of last century, I too left a good life behind and came to the US from South America seeking the risk taking/reward you have focused on.

In spite of my disgust for 'politicos' I dragged myself to the voting booth today and added my contribution to Mr. Obama. As a white hispanic and part of a minority, this is just too important and I was thrilled to be able to honor the spirit of this country: that anyone -even those with all odds against them and those who suffered the worst of ordeals- can make it, if they believe enough. I also wish him good luck.

metalman
11-04-08, 07:24 PM
America is a nation in serious decline. The choice between Obama and McCain represents the severity of that decline. An Obama presidency will be a disaster (and a two term Presidency would be a catastrophe). McCain's would be no different.

That choice of candidates demonstrates the shallowness of American leadership. I am now completely convinced of the ascendancy of Chinese power to supremacy in this century. American power and its Empire are in its death throes. It will be finished.

I'm not anti-American. The decline of America will have severe consequences for many nations. But it is something that real statesmen will recognise and learn to adapt to.

i'd have voted for churchill but he wasn't running. he was a mediocre leader until he got thrown into the fire.

leaders are forged. we'll see what obama's got.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 07:29 PM
If Obama wins (I hope he doesn't) then I predict you, ej, will rue the day you made this choice.

While most of us accept that politicians must have a more casual relation with truth than say accountants, still we tend to grant our fellow humans some modicum of trust until proven otherwise.

If Obama wins, I predict that you will discover that Obama and his entire campaign was profoundly and deliberately more deceiptful than you thought possible. My impressions are that Obama's inner sense of himself is pathologically disconnected from how he presents himself (I suspect he's a victim of serious child abuse) and that since his adolescence he has been manipulated by some of the most dangerous, scheming, radical anti-American Marxists of our time.

I fear for my country.

My real fear is that most of the younger people in this nation will never realize the mistake they made in allowing Obama anywhere near the White House. At least you're beyond doubt a smart chap, so I trust that if I'm right in all this, you will some day be capable of seeing as much.

Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.

qwerty
11-04-08, 07:48 PM
I am not yet a citizen although I have the right to apply for citizenship, but please allow me this one piece of representation to go along with my taxation.



Barack Obama represents the American ideal, an expression of the best of American culture and simultaneously .......


The poetic justice of it is what everyone's so excited about surely.

Here is this man who is the epitome of the American Ethic. And, by having everyone recognize that, he may bring about the annihilation of the great American Hypocrisy.



A final note to address the other great anxiety among our readers, that Barack Obama intends to “redistribute wealth.”

I have to laugh at all the "Socialism!" shreeks.

I grew up with Margaret Thatcher, and she'd be to the left of Dennis Kucinich. Do not worry, America is still a one-party state. I think that the smart element amongst the people who own this country see a confluence of ideals and self-interest with Obama.

There maybe needs to be a swing back from monetary wealth being of prime concern, to social cohesion being more important. You may have to give up some more of your personal wealth but perhaps the upside is you won't have to spend money to have an M-15 trained on your neighbors at all times.

United we stand, though dividends may fall.

I have worried that I would not be "patriotic" enough to become a citizen. There seemed to be a lot of mindless flag-waving required. Not much honor to the flag, all about the wavers. But I think I may have to buy a flag tomorrow, out of respect.

Mn_Mark
11-04-08, 07:52 PM
I'm flattered that Mr. Janszen chose to single out my posting about Obama to build a reply around. He makes his points eloquently and with an appealing optimism. However I remain confident that future events will bear out my skepticism.

We are not South Africa, true. The white population here is 65% rather than the 5% in S.A. A black president here could not move nearly as quickly to seize white property as the black government in South Africa has done. Especially the first black President will have to move somewhat cautiously, appointing many prominent white men to leadership posts, so as not to confirm too easily the fears of whites like myself. But Obama is from the Alinsky school of social activism and he understands the need for incrementalism. I doubt he will push too hard at first. (Though every so often his true feelings slip out, as when he said a few days ago that he plans to fundamentally change the United States of America.)

But in some ways we are worse than South Africa. South African blacks may have been denied the vote but they were never the slaves of South African whites. They are, to a large extent, the descendents of blacks from around that region of Africa who moved to S.A. to get work that was not available anywhere else. The whites, disdaining manual labor themselves, hired the blacks to do that. (Sound familiar?) The blacks who came for work stayed, made families, and increased their percentage of the population from around 50% to 95%, at which point they took over after the 1994 referendum. The noble-sounding rhetoric of Nelson Mandela and others about reconciliation, rainbows, and so on, were empty words. People want power and people think ethnically. That is not changed by pretty words.

The idea that now that a black man is going to be President, the festering resentment of blacks will dissipate and racial harmony will become ever more evident is too idealistic, I think. I think more likely what you will hear from blacks is this: only now has America BEGUN to fulfill its promise to blacks. This will not be considered the capstone of the 150 year process of eliminating discrimination; it will be considered just a starting place. Now the restitution can begin in earnest.

Further I don't know where you are looking when you see evidence that the poisonous black underculture is disappearing. The illegitimacy rate among blacks, which was 25% in the era of open discrimination, is nearly 70% now. The coarsening of our popular culture is rampant. The hatred expressed towards whites is as virulent as ever. (Google 'Kamau Kambon' and check out what this black intellectual suggested as a solution to our national racial problems at a conference at Howard University last year. His speech is on YouTube.)

Another commenter wrote: "I do think Eric may be right in the qualitative milestone the US may be reaching in finally swallowing a chunk of our domestic racism. I remember when we had our first African American mayor of a big city, Detroit I believe, and it took a while to have another. Fits and starts is more like it. Now, who cares?"

What an unfortunate example he selects for his point. Detroit is an example of what happens to a once-great American city under black management. New Orleans would be another. Did you know that satellite photos show that parts of central Detroit are actually returning to nature? People are setting up small farms there. The city has been hollowed out. A center of American industry was made too unsafe for white people to be able to live there, and the blacks who remained essentially destroyed it.

Can you point to a single example of a former white-majority city or country where the quality of life of the remaining white residents has not been seriously compromised when they became a minority? I can't.

So I can't share your sense of optimism. But that's OK - it's important that white liberals, who mean well and have the noblest sort of intentions - see for themselves the truth of these things. They won't believe it until they see it in their own neighborhoods and their own nation. This is the price we are going to have to pay for our undiscriminating altruism. We are idealistic people - when we think something is the moral and right thing, we will tenaciously hold on to it even if it harms us. That's why about the only places in the world with a track record of free and fair elections are majority-white nations. We voluntarily abstain from rigging elections; we voluntarily pay our taxes, obey laws, don't litter, and so on. It's why the 90% of the world that isn't white so strongly wants to emigrate to our nations.

So let's set a stake right here on the eve of the election of the first black President and check back in five or ten years to see if this election really soothed blacks and led to a new era of racial harmony, or whether it only emboldened them to demand even more and flaunt their power. After 14 years of black rule, it's not hard to guess what white South Africans would predict is in our future.

Wild Style
11-04-08, 07:58 PM
Barack Obama represents the American ideal, an expression of the best of American culture and simultaneously a rejection of the dying culture of dependency and self-defeatism that kept many blacks in America behind other races that came to America and flourished over the centuries. That self-destructive culture was an echo of slavery, rebounding off America like a cry of pain and anger that reinforced division, prejudice, and failure with despondency and fear. Little noticed to many, that culture has been fading out for 20 years as the latest generation of Americans, more race-blind than their parents, focus on more important matters in a globally competitive world: education, skills, cooperation, teamwork. great article except for this bit which seems to paint some fairy tale picture of America, where all things were equal for everyone. New imigrants coming to America didn't face being lynched from trees, inferior educations, sub par socio economic conditions, jim crow and institutionalized racism.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 08:06 PM
Did you know that satellite photos show that parts of central Detroit are actually returning to nature?
See Zillow Blog at http://www.zillowblog.com/the-remains-of-the-1-detroit-house/2008/08/?ref=patrick.net for pictures of a $1 house for sale in Detroit to get a graphic image of what has become of this city.

It's sad.

ricket
11-04-08, 08:09 PM
I'm flattered that Mr. Janszen chose to single out my posting about Obama to build a reply around. He makes his points eloquently and with an appealing optimism. However I remain confident that future events will bear out my skepticism.

We are not South Africa, true. The white population here is 65% rather than the 5% in S.A. A black president here could not move nearly as quickly to seize white property as the black government in South Africa has done. Especially the first black President will have to move somewhat cautiously, appointing many prominent white men to leadership posts, so as not to confirm too easily the fears of whites like myself. But Obama is from the Alinsky school of social activism and he understands the need for incrementalism. I doubt he will push too hard at first. (Though every so often his true feelings slip out, as when he said a few days ago that he plans to fundamentally change the United States of America.)

But in some ways we are worse than South Africa. South African blacks may have been denied the vote but they were never the slaves of South African whites. They are, to a large extent, the descendents of blacks from around that region of Africa who moved to S.A. to get work that was not available anywhere else. The whites, disdaining manual labor themselves, hired the blacks to do that. (Sound familiar?) The blacks who came for work stayed, made families, and increased their percentage of the population from around 50% to 95%, at which point they took over after the 1994 referendum. The noble-sounding rhetoric of Nelson Mandela and others about reconciliation, rainbows, and so on, were empty words. People want power and people think ethnically. That is not changed by pretty words.

The idea that now that a black man is going to be President, the festering resentment of blacks will dissipate and racial harmony will become ever more evident is too idealistic, I think. I think more likely what you will hear from blacks is this: only now has America BEGUN to fulfill its promise to blacks. This will not be considered the capstone of the 150 year process of eliminating discrimination; it will be considered just a starting place. Now the restitution can begin in earnest.

Further I don't know where you are looking when you see evidence that the poisonous black underculture is disappearing. The illegitimacy rate among blacks, which was 25% in the era of open discrimination, is nearly 70% now. The coarsening of our popular culture is rampant. The hatred expressed towards whites is as virulent as ever. (Google 'Kamau Kambon' and check out what this black intellectual suggested as a solution to our national racial problems at a conference at Howard University last year. His speech is on YouTube.)

Another commenter wrote: "I do think Eric may be right in the qualitative milestone the US may be reaching in finally swallowing a chunk of our domestic racism. I remember when we had our first African American mayor of a big city, Detroit I believe, and it took a while to have another. Fits and starts is more like it. Now, who cares?"

What an unfortunate example he selects for his point. Detroit is an example of what happens to a once-great American city under black management. New Orleans would be another. Did you know that satellite photos show that parts of central Detroit are actually returning to nature? People are setting up small farms there. The city has been hollowed out. A center of American industry was made too unsafe for white people to be able to live there, and the blacks who remained essentially destroyed it.

Can you point to a single example of a former white-majority city or country where the quality of life of the remaining white residents has not been seriously compromised when they became a minority? I can't.

So I can't share your sense of optimism. But that's OK - it's important that white liberals, who mean well and have the noblest sort of intentions - see for themselves the truth of these things. They won't believe it until they see it in their own neighborhoods and their own nation. This is the price we are going to have to pay for our undiscriminating altruism. We are idealistic people - when we think something is the moral and right thing, we will tenaciously hold on to it even if it harms us. That's why about the only places in the world with a track record of free and fair elections are majority-white nations. We voluntarily abstain from rigging elections; we voluntarily pay our taxes, obey laws, don't litter, and so on. It's why the 90% of the world that isn't white so strongly wants to emigrate to our nations.

So let's set a stake right here on the eve of the election of the first black President and check back in five or ten years to see if this election really soothed blacks and led to a new era of racial harmony, or whether it only emboldened them to demand even more and flaunt their power. After 14 years of black rule, it's not hard to guess what white South Africans would predict is in our future.

You really should try and get past your xenophobia. This kind of thinking is what keeps civilization from progressing. I'd rather worry about repercussions when someone *DOES* do something wrong, than to constantly fear and persecute those that we fear *MAY* do something wrong. It's this very tenet of "innocent until proven guilty" that upholds our entire judicial system.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 08:16 PM
You really should try and get past your xenophobia. This kind of thinking is what keeps civilizations from progressing.

Being a bit to quick on the draw with claims of racism or other politically incorrect thinking can also be an impediment.

I find the posts of Mn_Mark to worth reading.

EJ
11-04-08, 08:17 PM
If Obama wins (I hope he doesn't) then I predict you, ej, will rue the day you made this choice.

While most of us accept that politicians must have a more casual relation with truth than say accountants, still we tend to grant our fellow humans some modicum of trust until proven otherwise.

If Obama wins, I predict that you will discover that Obama and his entire campaign was profoundly and deliberately more deceiptful than you thought possible. My impressions are that Obama's inner sense of himself is pathologically disconnected from how he presents himself (I suspect he's a victim of serious child abuse) and that since his adolescence he has been manipulated by some of the most dangerous, scheming, radical anti-American Marxists of our time.

I fear for my country.

My real fear is that most of the younger people in this nation will never realize the mistake they made in allowing Obama anywhere near the White House. At least you're beyond doubt a smart chap, so I trust that if I'm right in all this, you will some day be capable of seeing as much.

Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.

I thought long and hard about that before writing this endorsement.

My conclusion was that we, and I am being presumptuous here, over the age of 30 do not understand the generation that Obama represents.

What they are against is: racism, cronyism, favoritism, ignorance, being sent off to die in wars started by old men on false pretenses, and being ripped off by their parents who have mortgaged their future and left them with a reverse mortgage on the deflating family home.

Did the the boomers think their kids would never grow up and become sentient beings? Maybe not a class war but a justified uprising of a generation that knows it is stuck with the tab from the previous one. What did we expect?

The most popular piece I ever wrote for iTulip was How Much of Your Car Should You Finance? Zero percent (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634) with over 50,000 views. Guess who read it? Not 40 year olds.

This generation is not stupid. They are catching on. It's hard to sell bullshit to them. They are expert at bulllshit detection. They'd never think McCain is a "maverick" and "straight talking." Now that is some serious wishful thinking.

The generation that voted for Obama is so fiercely individualistic and capitalistic that you'd have a better chance of developing their interest in Buddy Holly than a collectivist movement among them. That is another generational issue it's hard for us old folks to get past. Marxism is dead. The dispute that remains is over the relations between the state and free enterprise. My worry about Obama is too much state and not enough enterprise, but the generation that voted for him isn't interested in going on the dole or paying taxes, either. They are eager to create the next big thing, and do it for money but also for fun and for everyone's use. The Internet is their idea of a great invention.

Obama anti-American? What security do we have without economic strength? What can be more anti-American than to not make every effort to protect the US economy? By that measure we have not had a president since Johnson that was not anti-American.

I don't take the absence of patriotic rhetoric from Obama as a sign that he does not love our country. The generation that supports him is not nationalistic, and I don't just mean here in the US. The generation in Estonia, China, Japan, Italy, all think the same way. Think about it. If you grew up with the Internet and were exposed to as much of the world as they have been, you'd think: what's all the fuss about national borders? Everyone speaks and writes English. Everyone is a capitalist, whether they admit it or not. Now if we can just get these old farts and their governments out of our way.

Obama an abused child? Probably. I prefer my leaders employ their over-achievement neurosis in my interest -- manic-depression and alcoholism are common symptoms of the best of them. I don't care if they are also great statesmen.

We shall see what Obama does if he wins, then what the job turns him into. But that is by no means assured.

Thanks for your note.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 08:26 PM
I grew up with Margaret Thatcher, and she'd be to the left of Dennis Kucinich.

That's not the Thatcher we've heard of on this side of the pond. Can you elaborate what you mean by that, or provide some evidence?

The Thatcher I've heard of is the Iron Lady who stood with Reagan opposing the Soviets, and who privatized important portions of the British economy.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 08:42 PM
My conclusion was that we, and I am being presumptuous here, over the age of 30 do not understand the generation that Obama represents.


You describe well some of the entirely legitimate appeal that Obama has for the younger voters. My son is 20, and voted for Obama only because Ron Paul wasn't in the running.

I do not dispute that the youth of this nation have good reason to distrust and abhor the major mess we're handing them. My Social Security will soon equal my sons pay check; I've thanked him, sardonically, for sending me what he earns, and he's replied, with appropropriate bitter sarcasm, "you're welcome."

I entirely doubt that Obama is who he claims to be, or has an agenda that even remotely addresses these legitimate issues.

Thank-you for your considered reply.

tombat1913
11-04-08, 08:45 PM
Great, leadership the day of the election, maybe three years from now we could get some commentary during the primaries when we still have some reasonable choice? Chiming in now for a candidate who is "not 100% independent from the influence of financial groups" is not leadership. You people want "change"? How about voting for someone who can't be bought, period! Quit voting for the least of evils and vote your conscience.

itulip has fantastic economic commentary, so stick to the economics.

Mn_Mark
11-04-08, 08:48 PM
You really should try and get past your xenophobia. This kind of thinking is what keeps civilization from progressing.

It is entirely sensible to look at one's environment and the changes occuring in it, compare those changes to similar changes that have occurred in other places, and sound the alarm if one finds something threatening.

Civilization is not prevented from progressing by people pointing out how history shows that the direction it is moving has been tried before and resulted in disaster. (Just ask Native Americans how it worked out for them when they got a big dose of 'diversity' beginning in 1492. Would you have told them that they were 'xenophobes' who were resisting 'progress'? Were their lives just meaningless, empty exercises in xenophobia because they didn't have large populations of Europeans, Somalis, Japanese, Arabs, etc, etc, etc living in their nations?)

I accept the necessity of an Obama presidency and strong leftist control of Congress as a means of waking well-meaning white liberals up to what is happening. But I will not shut up. If your "progress" is so tenuous that it can't stand up to reasonable, dispassionate analysis, then that says something about your notion of progress, not something about me.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 08:51 PM
But I will not shut up.

Good. Thanks.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 09:25 PM
Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.

It's starting to look like I'm hoping to be a whack job. Ohio and Pennsylvania and Virginia seem to be leaning toward Obama. Fox just called Ohio for McCain.

I am less optimistic of a McCain victory than I was before.

a warren
11-04-08, 10:04 PM
You watch Fox. Ahahahahahahahaha ha How can you watch that shit? Or is it for the entertainment of seeing the losers lose it?

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 10:16 PM
I don't watch any TV; though if I did, I'd prefer Fox.

I heard that Fox called it from listening to the radio - Mark Davis, a fine Dallas conservative.

yernamehear
11-04-08, 10:20 PM
(Reply to EJ's original piece where he says "America is not South Africa.")

You're right, it's not America. And, you fell for it. It's NOT at all about race.

The only place the small government policy lives is in an ever smaller libertarian wing of the Republican party. The Dems have nothing to offer in this area, so they are out of the question.

As the government grows, you get the socialist cronyism from both parties, which has played a large part in the current crisis: 70+ years of dem entitlement building, piled on by the crony capitalism of the past couple of decades by the repubs.

Obama is one of those ivory tower, socialist children I used to have to listen to as a student at UC Berkeley. I got a belly full of those wanna be revolutionaries (aka thugs).

We'll get some kind of cross between Carter and FDR, for a long slow stagnation, probably punctuated by a serious inflation, as you predict.

With McCain, we may have had a shot at less government meddling, but it was only a long shot anyway.

That's really all there is to it.

ThePythonicCow
11-04-08, 10:27 PM
You're right, it's not America. And, you fell for it. It's NOT at all about race.

To which post are you responding?

Wild Style
11-04-08, 11:16 PM
If Obama wins (I hope he doesn't) then I predict you, ej, will rue the day you made this choice.

While most of us accept that politicians must have a more casual relation with truth than say accountants, still we tend to grant our fellow humans some modicum of trust until proven otherwise.

If Obama wins, I predict that you will discover that Obama and his entire campaign was profoundly and deliberately more deceiptful than you thought possible. My impressions are that Obama's inner sense of himself is pathologically disconnected from how he presents himself (I suspect he's a victim of serious child abuse) and that since his adolescence he has been manipulated by some of the most dangerous, scheming, radical anti-American Marxists of our time.

I fear for my country.

My real fear is that most of the younger people in this nation will never realize the mistake they made in allowing Obama anywhere near the White House. At least you're beyond doubt a smart chap, so I trust that if I'm right in all this, you will some day be capable of seeing as much.

Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.How did you come to that conclusion? I am sincerely asking.

Slimprofits
11-04-08, 11:40 PM
same deal with mccain. no one thinks he can win this election but that's bs. of course he can win. stop watching tv.

I disagree. This election was tailor made for opposition to the mainstream Republicans. McCain's only real chance all along was an Obama mega-gaffe that never materialized.

Republicans don't like McCain, never have. For years the the hardcore party zealots have referred to him as one of the Republicans In Name Only along with Collins from Maine and a couple of others. A majority of party-independents no longer like McCain - that has been borne out in poll after poll over the last month and in the new election results. And he used to be "their guy". During every election the candidates are chasing after the 10-15% of the potential electorate that either didn't vote in the prior election or tend to be party-independent. McCain finally blew it when he said, "the fundamentals of the economy are strong". Add in that only the most diehard of GOP party zealots can stand to be in the same room as Palin.

ricket
11-05-08, 12:05 AM
It is entirely sensible to look at one's environment and the changes occuring in it, compare those changes to similar changes that have occurred in other places, and sound the alarm if one finds something threatening.

Civilization is not prevented from progressing by people pointing out how history shows that the direction it is moving has been tried before and resulted in disaster. (Just ask Native Americans how it worked out for them when they got a big dose of 'diversity' beginning in 1492. Would you have told them that they were 'xenophobes' who were resisting 'progress'? Were their lives just meaningless, empty exercises in xenophobia because they didn't have large populations of Europeans, Somalis, Japanese, Arabs, etc, etc, etc living in their nations?)

I accept the necessity of an Obama presidency and strong leftist control of Congress as a means of waking well-meaning white liberals up to what is happening. But I will not shut up. If your "progress" is so tenuous that it can't stand up to reasonable, dispassionate analysis, then that says something about your notion of progress, not something about me.

See, I still see a sense of fear of the unknown by your statements. The reality is that we are not the Native Americans of 1492 who were conquered by the imperialism of the world. We are a globally centralized community (as made possible by the internet) who, whether you want to admit it or not, is radically different in many ways from the same group of localized individuals (ie the North Americans of 1492) who never even had any kind of exposure of others outside of their own race/culture/beliefs. Today's society is vastly different in that we are VERY AWARE that there are different cultures that exist outside our sphere of influence and that may not have ultimately negative consequences for our own survival. Since we do not have that fear of the unknown, we do not perceive others that are not quite like us as malevolent creatures who's only pursuit is the destruction of others. That is the arena in which your arguments seem to lie and I call you a "tinfoil-hat wearing paranoid psycho" for always fearing that if people arent like you then they must obviously be out to destroy you.

Short version: Youre a wuss and are scared of the unknown. Grow up, it's a brave world out there. Don't be scared. It ain't so bad...

Nervous Drake
11-05-08, 12:23 AM
How did you come to that conclusion? I am sincerely asking.

I was actually wondering that too. It's an interesting read that I'm not sure many people could just pick out.

Pretend I'm just a young dumb kid asking you about your wisdom. Do you see Obama's charisma as not inherently good but demonstrates a lacking? I've always wondered how people who are incredibly charismatic can hide some serious inner demons.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 12:27 AM
How did you come to that conclusion? I am sincerely asking.
Space, time and my patience do not permit me to present anything resembling a complete or particularly persuasive list of reasons and sources.

My favorite radio source is Mark Levin. My favorite web sites for such matters include Jack Wheeler's "To The Point News" and FreeRepublic.com. I observe an unrelenting bias in the main stream media for Obama, and against (since he became the nominee) McCain and against Palin. The background associations of Obama with hard leftists (Davis, Ayers), starting from his adolescence in Hawaii are continuous in his life, and consistently covered up or downplayed. Watching him speak, he's far closer to saying what he figures his audience wants to hear, and less concerned with anything resembling consistency with the facts or his previous statements than even most dishonest politicians. That is, he's a pathological crowd pleaser to a significantly greater degree than most politicians or that I would trust. YouTube video tapes and other recordings and records show him speaking to pretty much shut down the military, shut down (bankrupt) the coal industry, lie outrageously about his tax plans, diss rural Americans (clinging to their bibles and guns), abandon Israel, invoke repeated class warfare against those who have succeeded, promise to redistribute our money, take our guns, create a domestic security force as strong as our military, kill babies even after birth, show a complete absence of understanding for the proper limited basis of our government, intend to "find" in the Constitution a -mandate- for various social welfare, redistributions and reparations, take from the rich and give to the poor, ... His paper thin resume has been hidden from view, including his college records, his state legislative records, his birth records, his ACORN activism, his strong Senate liberal voting record ("Most Liberal") and Fannie/Freddie support (second highest recipient of lobby money from them) and his community organizing work. His Chicago thug style politics (Rezko) have suppressed dissent and exposure of his past, and attacked relentlessly and dishonestly his opponents. He was active in a racist, hate Whitie, hate America (Wright) church for twenty years.

See further such sites as http://obamaunveiled.com/ or http://www.politicallyincorrectfacts.com/Barack%20Obama/Barack_Obama_Main.htm or http://www.theobamafile.com/ or http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=79411 .

See also books:


The Case Against Barack Obama: The Unlikely Rise and Unexamined Agenda of the Media's Favorite Candidate by David Freddoso
Fleeced: How Barack Obama, Media Mockery of Terrorist Threats, Liberals Who Want to Kill Talk Radio, the Do-Nothing Congress, Companies That Help Iran, and Washington Lobbyists for Foreign Governments Are Scamming Us ... and What to Do About It by Dick Morris, Eileen Mcgann
The Audacity of Deceit: Barack Obama's War on American Values by Brad O'Leary
The Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality by Jerome R. Corsi

He has no more business being President than I do starring as a leading lady in a James Bond movie (I'm a big old man, btw.)

That he was elected scares me far worse than the worst case scenarios for the Great Depression II, for it means that a majority of the American voters have lost the ability to preserve our liberty.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 12:32 AM
By the way, in case you haven't guessed, I did not vote for Obama :).

erw698
11-05-08, 12:39 AM
Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.

looks like door number 1 :eek:

you should include psychiatric therapy in your investment portfolio

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 12:51 AM
looks like door number 1 :eek:


Yup - that it be.

jimmygu3
11-05-08, 12:56 AM
Can you point to a single example of a former white-majority city or country where the quality of life of the remaining white residents has not been seriously compromised when they became a minority? I can't.



Atlanta, GA.

Wild Style
11-05-08, 12:57 AM
Space, time and my patience do not permit me to present anything resembling a complete or particularly persuasive list of reasons and sources.

My favorite radio source is Mark Levin. My favorite web sites for such matters include Jack Wheeler's "To The Point News" and FreeRepublic.com. I observe an unrelenting bias in the main stream media for Obama, and against (since he became the nominee) McCain and against Palin. The background associations of Obama with hard leftists (Davis, Ayers), starting from his adolescence in Hawaii are continuous in his life, and consistently covered up or downplayed. Watching him speak, he's far closer to saying what he figures his audience wants to hear, and less concerned with anything resembling consistency with the facts or his previous statements than even most dishonest politicians. That is, he's a pathological crowd pleaser to a significantly greater degree than most politicians or that I would trust. YouTube video tapes and other recordings and records show him speaking to pretty much shut down the military, shut down (bankrupt) the coal industry, lie outrageously about his tax plans, diss rural Americans (clinging to their bibles and guns), abandon Israel, invoke repeated class warfare against those who have succeeded, promise to redistribute our money, take our guns, create a domestic security force as strong as our military, kill babies even after birth, show a complete absence of understanding for the proper limited basis of our government, intend to "find" in the Constitution a -mandate- for various social welfare, redistributions and reparations, take from the rich and give to the poor, ... His paper thin resume has been hidden from view, including his college records, his state legislative records, his birth records, his ACORN activism, his strong Senate liberal voting record ("Most Liberal") and Fannie/Freddie support (second highest recipient of lobby money from them) and his community organizing work. His Chicago thug style politics (Rezko) have suppressed dissent and exposure of his past, and attacked relentlessly and dishonestly his opponents. He was active in a racist, hate Whitie, hate America (Wright) church for twenty years.

See further such sites as http://obamaunveiled.com/ or http://www.politicallyincorrectfacts.com/Barack%20Obama/Barack_Obama_Main.htm or http://www.theobamafile.com/ or http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=79411 .

See also books:


The Case Against Barack Obama: The Unlikely Rise and Unexamined Agenda of the Media's Favorite Candidate by David Freddoso
Fleeced: How Barack Obama, Media Mockery of Terrorist Threats, Liberals Who Want to Kill Talk Radio, the Do-Nothing Congress, Companies That Help Iran, and Washington Lobbyists for Foreign Governments Are Scamming Us ... and What to Do About It by Dick Morris, Eileen Mcgann
The Audacity of Deceit: Barack Obama's War on American Values by Brad O'Leary
The Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality by Jerome R. Corsi

He has no more business being President than I do starring as a leading lady in a James Bond movie (I'm a big old man, btw.)

That he was elected scares me far worse than the worst case scenarios for the Great Depression II, for it means that a majority of the American voters have lost the ability to preserve our liberty.Thank you sir

jimmygu3
11-05-08, 12:58 AM
Hopefully, either I'm a whacked out nut job, or Obama loses tonight.

Well he won, so hopefully you're a whacked out nut job.

ricket
11-05-08, 01:00 AM
See further such sites as http://obamaunveiled.com/ or http://www.politicallyincorrectfacts...Obama_Main.htm (http://www.politicallyincorrectfacts.com/Barack%20Obama/Barack_Obama_Main.htm) or http://www.theobamafile.com/ or http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=79411 .I know that all I can smell out of you is fear. Nothing but absolute fear of the unknown. "OH MY GOD HE'S NOT LIKE ME SO HE'S GOING TO DESTROY ME!".

I have a rather accurate reputation for picking up the "vibes" that other people give off, and have usually been correct in my initial interpretations of individuals after having only met them and spoken with them for just a few brief moments. You strike me as one who is fearful of the unknown whether you want to admit it or not. I can just *feel* the fear coming out of your pores in every word you type.

jimmygu3
11-05-08, 01:07 AM
I know that all I can smell out of you is fear. Nothing but absolute fear of the unknown. "OH MY GOD HE'S NOT LIKE ME SO HE'S GOING TO DESTROY ME!".

I have a rather accurate reputation for picking up the "vibes" that other people give off, and have usually been correct in my initial interpretations of individuals after having only met them and spoken with them for just a few brief moments. You strike me as one who is fearful of the unknown whether you want to admit it or not. I can just *feel* the fear coming out of your pores in every word you type.

Do you think ThePythonicCow could be a "victim of serious child abuse"? ;)

ASH
11-05-08, 01:09 AM
My conclusion was that we, and I am being presumptuous here, over the age of 30 do not understand the generation that Obama represents.

What they are against is: ... and being ripped off by their parents who have mortgaged their future and left them with a reverse mortgage on the deflating family home.

Did the the boomers think their kids would never grow up and become sentient beings? Maybe not a class war but a justified uprising of a generation that knows it is stuck with the tab from the previous one. What did we expect?

I can't square this perception at all with President-elect Obama's actual campaign positions on Social Security and Medicare. At 33, I don't quite fit into the "under 30" demographic, but getting stuck with the tab for the previous generation is my major political issue. Obama's campaign position on the entitlement programs was less responsive to the interests of the younger generation than McCain's campaign. I share Robert Samuelson's impression that the economic interests of younger voters were not adequately addressed by either candidate, but were entirely ignored by Obama, who seemed to be AARP's poster child (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/21/AR2008102102252.html). I think Obama got the young vote for every reason you cited OTHER than the economic issue -- and that the young are selling their votes cheaply for ideological issues at the expense of their practical self-interest.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:13 AM
Do you see Obama's charisma as not inherently good but demonstrates a lacking?

I see it as inherently evil :eek:.

Most of us, to lie affectively, have to momentarilly convince ourselves of the possible truth of what we say. Granted, if your brain is as scattered as mine, such dilusions and confusions are not that uncommon. But still, most of us, most of the time, can and do present some consistent views of the truth, as best we see it, with minor modifications for politeness or such.

A few who survived serious abuse sometime in childhood learn the hard way that their very lives depend on suppressing beneath the level of their day to day consciousness some critical truths. It's lie or die. Their entire adult lives, all communication with others, public or private, is a facade, upon which their very existence depends. This facade becomes well practiced; its facile flexibility and quick responsiveness to the perceptions of others can be a useful skill in a few jobs -- prostitution, politics, spying and used car sales come to mind, though most practioners of those jobs are not so wounded. They can easily become a blank canvas, on whom others can paint their hopes and dreams. They are easily manipulated, by those who would manipulate others to gain some power or advantage. They usually have a more or less hidden inner rage, seething, like a not quite dormant volcano.

BrianL
11-05-08, 01:14 AM
Statements like this, on both sides of the isle, cause people to dig in and defend their positions. Change and faith come through action. Until the new administration begins to earn the trust through action, the best any Obama supporter can for the cause is lend listen, understand others and help out.

Everyone has reasons for holding their beliefs. Attacking belief through anything other than patient and caring action rarely does any good. Instead of debating ThePythonicCow, calling him (her?) out in public, I would suggest quietly listening to rationale, acknowledge points of view, and wait for opportunities to humbly point out good works (and acknowledge future failures on the new administrations part).

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:21 AM
I know that all I can smell out of you is fear.

My suspect you are implying a racial fear.

I am confident that you are not correct in your assessment.

I watch people. I know him. America just made a serious mistake.

BrianL
11-05-08, 01:27 AM
A large portion of the young are still poor; they don't have much to squeeze. Along with the lack of wealth is comes lack of study into preserving our wealth.

This goes along with an Microsoft published training manual I read a while back discussing generational differences in managing employees. The book repeatedly pointed out that those in the millenium generation are, stereotypically, more focused on work life balance than on success. A raise may not be adequate compensation to encourage younger people to work longer hours to the extent it was with previous generations. They also pointed out the millenium generation was more willing to move from job to job than they were interested in building long term relationships with a company.

A recent NPR piece recently discussed generation defining music. One element they pointed at as a defining chracteristic of the post-generation-x music was how music shifted music expressed angst and frustration derived from the realization that our generation wouldn't have it better than our parents. The itulip forums even echo some of this, with the boomer backlash.

It is an interesting set of data points. Some of this may simply be typical 'youth of today' observations. If it isn't, if there really is a shift in values under way, the next decade may be very interesting.

Mn_Mark
11-05-08, 01:28 AM
I call you a "tinfoil-hat wearing paranoid psycho" for always fearing that if people arent like you then they must obviously be out to destroy you.

I value a world full of people who aren't like me. I want a world full of different peoples of different races and cultures and traditions. I love diversity on a world-wide scale. And I certainly don't think that if people aren't like me they are automatically out to destroy me.

However neither am I so naive that I think there is no such thing as ethnic affiliation and that people think of themselves as part of an ethnic group and want to see that group gain power and control of the country it resides in. That is simply a fact of human nature. Ask the Tutsis how well it worked to share a nation with the Hutus. Ask the Yugoslavs how well their national exercise in diversity worked out. Ask the Native Americans. Ask the indigenous peoples of Latin America. Look anywhere in the world where more than one people shares a single nation and you will see the places where wars and strife are occuring.

But for people like you, there can be no reasonable concern about such things. You caricature my concerns as nothing but unreasonable, cowardly fear. But your position is racist - only whites like me are to be scorned and ridiculed and demonized if we feel an affiliation for our own people, and identify with them, and want to see their future secure and prosperous. Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Asians, Africans, every other ethnic group on earth you naturally grant the right to think of themselves as a distinct people who have a natural interest in self-preservation as they are. But not whites. If we have the same feelings, we are nothing but cowards in your eyes who should relax and stop struggling as we, outnumbered 9 to 1 in the world, are gradually marginalized in the nations we founded and built. You will applaud the Native American or the Palestinian or the Aborigine who has a fierce identification with his ancestors and wants to protect his peoples' identity and historical character, but for a white man to do the same makes him evil and the source of the problems in the world.

You can get away with this for a while yet. Most whites want to believe that a world where ethnic identity has no meaning is possible. Many are willing to see their own people disappear if that sacrifice is necessary to preserve their well-intentioned, but misguided idealism. But many of us are not. We will not go quietly into the night. We will wait now and let you have your time and hope that our well-meaning, idealistic brothers and sisters wake up in time. We understand you have to have time to see for yourself what happens when you give away control of your people's nation to a competing people or peoples.

If you really want world peace, give every distinct people on earth their own separate nation with inviolate borders. Then we can truly welcome one another as friends and we can truly cherish the diversity of colors and languages and cultures of the brotherhood of mankind. But force us to try to compete for control of a single nation and you will unleash violence and endless strife.

And if you really want to further the conversation and build bridges and end division, stop ridiculing my concerns as those of a paranoid. You would not say that to the Aborigines or the Israelis or any other people on earth seeing control of their nation slipping away. Have the courtesy to deal with my arguments directly instead of with insults which stoke anger instead of creating understanding.

Chris
11-05-08, 01:30 AM
Vote for Obama. Here's why.

...

All this most of you know; I have not yet faced the major anxiety of our people in our time but few express: race. I will do so by quoting a posting we received today by a new member who has not participated on our forums before. It is intelligently argued and I suspect shared by more people than care to express it. I believe the sentiment he expresses is 100% wrong, but I appreciate his willingness to share it and give me this opportunity to address it. He said:
In 1994, 70% of [white South African voters] drank the white liberal kool aid and voted themselves into the political minority on the promise that if they would just stop being racists, the future would be all about merit and equality and reconciliation. Instead they now find themselves under siege, legally discriminated against in jobs, prohibited from owning more than 49% of their own family businesses (they have to find a black person to give 51% to), the victims of rampant crime, rape, and murder (with a 2-3% rate of solving the murders). The famous white South Africa liberal writers whose writings contributed to ending apartheid are moving away to Australia and Europe. They have seen firsthand what they did to their own people and now they are running away. Nice for them, not so nice for the people who can't afford to leave.

But you never hear about South Africa anymore. White western liberals prefer not to think about what has happened there in the wake of the adoption of their reform program. Or in Zimbabwe. There is a slow-motion anti-white genocide unfolding there, but it doesn't fit the liberal script so it's not discussed.

So we are in an era where young white people have been indoctrinated for the last several decades in their schools and in the mass media that the history of whites is shameful and that they must never think in terms of race - while blacks, Latinos, and others openly identify with their own ethnic groups and interests, openly speak of themselves as a people based solely on race, openly push for special considerations based solely on race rather than merit. So we are going to have to go through the fire here, until young white people reach an age where they are trying to raise a family in safety with decent schools and without racial discrimination against whites.

They say a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. There's a whole generation of young whites who have a lot of muggings coming their way. Right now they are in the full flush of youthful passion and idealism, scornful of older people (i.e. people with significant life experience) and sure that they have discovered new amazing truths that old fools can't see.

The easy conclusion is that there will probably never be a more disillusioned generation of people in American history than the generation of young whites who are voting for Obama. By the time they are in their middle age they will shake their heads sadly that they could have been so wrong.
My response:

America is not South Africa.




The correct quote, from Irwin Stelzer, was that "a neo-conservative was a liberal who had been mugged by reality". Please don't let that incoherent comment be the reason for endorsing Obama.

While I am amazed at the disregard the Republicans had for conservative values, I think the truth of Steltzers' comment will become evident during the course of the Obama presidency. He was the best choice of two very poor ones (although i wish i could say the same about his party - in truth neither are fit to lead).

Good luck everyone. The world needs sound American leadership. Let's hope that that is what we get.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:35 AM
Do you think ThePythonicCow could be a "victim of serious child abuse"? ;)

Good question. No - I was not the abused child. I am the loner, who stands in the corner, watching others, even as I am being social. I live and die by my ability to see the reality of what is before me and to act on that insight. I remain vigilant, like a good sheep dog, for the unexpected, the dangerous, the threat.

BrianL
11-05-08, 01:39 AM
I want to be sure I understand your position. In your mind, are high charisma and strong morals at opposite ends of the same axis?

If so, I have a different point of view. I believe that a person is defined by their values. Values are uniquely individual, established by a lifetime of experience. I don't believe it is possible to completely know a persons values - we can only see what people choose to share.

People with high charisma, with elequent words and controlled manners, can hide their values better than the rest of us. This doesn't make them more malleable; values and strength of character dictate this. Charisma is simply a tool.

[Or programmer to programmer, I view charisma as a void*. It has uses and can be very powerful, but it requires additional inspection to be sure it is used correctly. In the wrong hands, we get corruption and crashes. :)]

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:47 AM
I want to be sure I understand your position. In your mind, are high charisma and strong morals at opposite ends of the same axis?

No - not necessarily at all. I see no general rule correlating charisma and morality.

High charisma is an uncommon, but quite useful, talent. When rooted in a personality that has integrity, it can be a beautiful talent. When rooted in a personality that is deeply split by some unspeakable terror of childhood, it can be a dangerous talent.


[Or programmer to programmer, I view charisma as a void*. It has uses and can be very powerful, but it requires additional inspection to be sure it is used correctly. In the wrong hands, we get corruption and crashes. :)]

Yup.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:50 AM
Instead of debating ThePythonicCow, calling him (her?)

Him, quite definitely, despite the odd screen name.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 01:51 AM
Well he won, so hopefully you're a whacked out nut job.

I sure hope so.

Chris
11-05-08, 03:14 AM
John McCain - what a dignified man. His concession speech was utterly beautiful. It's a shame those Neanderthals in the audience kept boo-ing at the mention of the name Obama.

medved
11-05-08, 03:20 AM
My response:
America is not South Africa.



When I share with Americans my personal experience of living for 30+ years in the former USSR, I hear the same response: "America is not Russia". They could not be more wrong. America is getting more like Russia by the day. People don't believe in their personal effort anymore, they all discuss, how to make the gov't solve all their problems. And everybody (both liberal and 'conservative') believes, gov't is omnipotent. Its "policy on economy" is oh so important!

This is precisely what Russians were and are trying to do. Their only way to solve any problem is to bring a "good czar", whether by revolution or by election.

Yes, America is not Russia. By the same token Lithuania is not Greece. So Lithuania accepted Christianity about 1000 years later with some modifications. But it was still the same religion! Faith in the omnipotent "good government" is the socialist religion, that is haunting Europe for the last 200 years. America is not immune to it.

http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20not%20 found,ID=081103_2510,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml

The only thing Obama will do, is bring more and more regulation in every facet of life. That will create more problems, than solutions. I agree, that current regulation is bad, but it does not mean, there is not enough of it.

xela
11-05-08, 04:02 AM
My suspect you are implying a racial fear.

I am confident that you are not correct in your assessment.

I watch people. I know him. America just made a serious mistake.
That would be 3 in a row by your count then? :)

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 04:07 AM
I hear the same response: "America is not Russia". They could not be more wrong.
Russia has a flat tax, if I recall correctly, which is less intrusive and more efficient than our income tax. Other nations have a VAT -- do they have an income tax too? If not, that's a point in their favor.

Russia and England and other European countries can still drill for new oil. France can add new nuclear power plants. Many superior natural medicines (work better, cost less) are available in Europe, but not America (where the FDA has become a pawn of a few big drug companies.)

What was different about America was that we had one of the healthiest, well formed constitutional governments and over the last 100+ years, the strongest industrial, agricultural and economic foundation in the world. We also had the advantage that it has been since 1865 that a major war was fought on our land.

Piece by piece the termites of socialism and the encrustation of bureaucracy and the misallocation of wealth from production to "services" and financial asset bubbles has weakened us. The damage is taking a heavy toll.

Fewer and fewer Americans understand the difference between (1) a limited government, formed by responsible citizens to accomplish certain tasks for the common good, within specific enumerated powers, and (2) a government that provides for and is responsible for the general well being of its subjects, providing them with various benefits misnamed as "rights".

The founding notion of America, that we all have unalienable rights, preordained by our Creator, not doled out by some government, and that governments have only limited authority, voluntarilly consented to and perhaps later withdrawn by those forming it, all seem like a quaint anachronism to what is now, clearly by this election, a majority of voting Americans.

[Insert sound of Taps playing on a lone, sad bugle :(]

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 04:09 AM
That would be 3 in a row by your count then? :)
Three what? I'm not understanding your point - sorry.

hellstan
11-05-08, 04:59 AM
I'm more interested to learn about a forthcoming VAT, tax increases, more SS taxes, and of course massive keynsian efforts planned by people who've never had a real job.


phirang,
A french theologian wrote this some time ago : "They worship the effect whom they lament the causes."

All that crap about having cash without paying tax is the form of free lunch
the US had since 8 years - to their expense and the expense of the world.

Plus waging a war with borrowed money from Japs and Chinese.

So please… :mad:

A bit more discipline, here.

hellstan
11-05-08, 05:14 AM
If Obama wins, I predict that you will discover that Obama and his entire campaign was profoundly and deliberately more deceiptful than you thought possible. My impressions are that Obama's inner sense of himself is pathologically disconnected from how he presents himself (I suspect he's a victim of serious child abuse) and that since his adolescence he has been manipulated by some of the most dangerous, scheming, radical anti-American Marxists of our time.

I fear for my country.


And what about a falsely repentant falsely ex-alcoholic president being manipulated by an overpowering vice-president, and being elected against
the will of the people, and after a massive electoral fraud in a main southern state ?
Ever saw the footage of this president born drunk again at the Beijing olympics ? The world did, if you did not, and was moderately amused.
The Chinese did, and despise America for that.
If you did not fear for your country seeing this "president" plunging it into an abysmal debt your 20 year old son will have to live 120 years to erase,
what can we do for you ?
So please, a bit of decency here.

President elect Obama mad a resounding and sobering first speech which already won him the appreciation of the entire world.
If you don't see the difference with the shameful America the world had to bear with for 8 years, what can we do for you ?
Anything you'll ask. :D

PS : Knowing Europe as I know it, I can tell you I'd rather rebound out of this depression, in a few years, in the US, than in European countries which will :
- bend under public debt
- be crippled by high taxation
- be confronted to an aging and decreasing population
- have to deal with more and more agressive minorities, namely young Arabs seduced by fundamentalism (they already set France in fire for 2 months 2 years ago, care to remember ?)
- never dream to attract, as America does, half of the migrating populations of the world, brilliant indian computing engineers,
extraordinarily inventive chinese inventors or merchants, and so on…

Because, as usual, US, which has entered first in this crisis, will suffer
the most, and also get out of it in first position. Europe won't.

Finally, I think you don't know your own luck having elected such a respectable (young) man.

And lastly, a warning here, if you allow me.
The huge state romanlike plots that killed JFK, MLK and RFK derailed the American democracy, towards the Nixonian
corrupted decay. Remember Nixon himself stating, in the Oval Office, registered on tape, and consigned by Haldeman
and Ehrlichman in their respective memoirs, that the Warren commission report was "the greatest hoax of judicial american
history", a "Bay of Pigs situation" ?
In a country where so many people carry a gun and shoot students like sitting ducks, I don't think some heated
arguments would do any good to this country. That would be too much of an ex post present to give to the
Great Divider that this president has been - for the US and the world.

PS : Can't wait to see W's memoirs. I may even buy some crayons to colour in some of the pictures.
Will he get it published by Blurb ? Or by Berlusconi Press ?
With nice typos like : My White Blouse Gears. Memoirs of ex-resident Push

About Palin, I hope she'll keep her teeth biting in the GOP, so that party which has returned
to its meager historic base - Confederative states of the pre-Civil War Deep South plus
some hicks in the mountain up there, will stay put for some decades, having the decency
of just agitating themselves in a shallow pool with brainy Sarah as instructress, while the
true American people and its government do the homework and clean up that bushy mess
of debt and war the world never could afford.

Tulpen
11-05-08, 05:30 AM
Vote for Obama. Here's why.

Just giving my opinion here but the combination of a democrat president and the democrats having a majority congres will prove the worse thing economically for this country.

hellstan
11-05-08, 05:35 AM
Just giving my opinion here but the combination of a democrat president and the democrats having a majority congres will prove the worse thing economically for this country.

Care to develop ?
Last time I checked, after 1992, the US did not precisely do that bad…:rolleyes:

xela
11-05-08, 05:42 AM
Three what? I'm not understanding your point - sorry.
Serious mistakes..

nathanhulick
11-05-08, 07:59 AM
My conclusion was that we, and I am being presumptuous here, over the age of 30 do not understand the generation that Obama represents.

What they are against is: racism, cronyism, favoritism, ignorance, being sent off to die in wars started by old men on false pretenses, and being ripped off by their parents who have mortgaged their future and left them with a reverse mortgage on the deflating family home.


Absolutely true. Unfortunately, Obama doesnt bring any real change whatsoever, as Ron Paul has pointed out many times. A large number of people want things to change, unfortunately, Obama is just bringing talk of change, but the status quo will remain.

Obama collected tons of money from wives and friends of lobbyists (although not the lobbyists themselves, because that would make him beholden to them), he collected millions from Wall St., does anyone here really believe that they gave him money because they thought that he was going to "change" they cronyism and favoritism that benefits them?

A lot of American people are angry and want a change from their politicians in Washington. They elected Obama because they thought that's what they were getting when they voted for him. If people are smart enough to realize they were duped (probably not), they are going to be very unhappy with what Obama gives them.

nathanhulick
11-05-08, 08:16 AM
And what about a falsely repentant falsely ex-alcoholic president being manipulated by an overpowering vice-president, and being elected against
the will of the people, and after a massive electoral fraud in a main southern state ?
Ever saw the footage of this president born drunk again at the Beijing olympics ? The world did, if you did not, and was moderately amused.
The Chinese did, and despise America for that.
If you did not fear for your country seeing this "president" plunging it into an abysmal debt your 20 year old son will have to live 120 years to erase,
what can we do for you ?
So please, a bit of decency here.

President elect Obama mad a resounding and sobering first speech which already won him the appreciation of the entire world.
If you don't see the difference with the shameful America the world had to bear with for 8 years, what can we do for you ?
Anything you'll ask. :D

PS : Knowing Europe as I know it, I can tell you I'd rather rebound out of this depression, in a few years, in the US, than in European countries which will :
- bend under public debt
- be crippled by high taxation
- be confronted to an aging and decreasing population
- have to deal with more and more agressive minorities, namely young Arabs seduced by fundamentalism (they already set France in fire for 2 months 2 years ago, care to remember ?)
- never dream to attract, as America does, half of the migrating populations of the world, brilliant indian computing engineers,
extraordinarily inventive chinese inventors or merchants, and so on…

Because, as usual, US, which has entered first in this crisis, will suffer
the most, and also get out of it in first position. Europe won't.

Finally, I think you don't know your own luck having elected such a respectable (young) man.

And lastly, a warning here, if you allow me.
The huge state romanlike plots that killed JFK, MLK and RFK derailed the American democracy, towards the Nixonian
corrupted decay. Remember Nixon himself stating, in the Oval Office, registered on tape, and consigned by Haldeman
and Ehrlichman in their respective memoirs, that the Warren commission report was "the greatest hoax of judicial american
history", a "Bay of Pigs situation" ?
In a country where so many people carry a gun and shoot students like sitting ducks, I don't think some heated
arguments would do any good to this country. That would be too much of an ex post present to give to the
Great Divider that this president has been - for the US and the world.

PS : Can't wait to see W's memoirs. I may even buy some crayons to colour in some of the pictures.
Will he get it published by Blurb ? Or by Berlusconi Press ?
With nice typos like : My White Blouse Gears. Memoirs of ex-resident Push

About Palin, I hope she'll keep her teeth biting in the GOP, so that party which has returned
to its meager historic base - Confederative states of the pre-Civil War Deep South plus
some hicks in the mountain up there, will stay put for some decades, having the decency
of just agitating themselves in a shallow pool with brainy Sarah as instructress, while the
true American people and its government do the homework and clean up that bushy mess
of debt and war the world never could afford.


Spoken like a true kool-aid drinking European Liberal. In 4 years we will trade you Obama for a six pack of beer, and it doesnt even have to be cold.

D-Mack
11-05-08, 08:30 AM
Spoken like a true kool-aid drinking European Liberal. In 4 years we will trade you Obama for a six pack of beer, and it doesnt even have to be cold.

I heard this guy, Eckart von Klaeden (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckart_von_Klaeden) on the radio today, he really didn't want to answer if a Obama victory means more troops from Europe and Germany for his adventures in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

labasta
11-05-08, 08:40 AM
I think Obama got the young vote for every reason you cited OTHER than the economic issue -- and that the young are selling their votes cheaply for ideological issues at the expense of their practical self-interest.

I agree with that.

I have done that myself when I was much younger.

Now I'm a disillusioned old fart at 35.

D-Mack
11-05-08, 08:42 AM
And what about a falsely repentant falsely ex-alcoholic president being manipulated by an overpowering vice-president, and being elected against
the will of the people, and after a massive electoral fraud in a main southern state ?
Ever saw the footage of this president born drunk again at the Beijing olympics ? The world did, if you did not, and was moderately amused.
The Chinese did, and despise America for that.
If you did not fear for your country seeing this "president" plunging it into an abysmal debt your 20 year old son will have to live 120 years to erase,
what can we do for you ?
So please, a bit of decency here.

President elect Obama mad a resounding and sobering first speech which already won him the appreciation of the entire world.
If you don't see the difference with the shameful America the world had to bear with for 8 years, what can we do for you ?
Anything you'll ask. :D
....




I think it was the cocaine that destroyed his brain and speech skills or it really was a mix of different things

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4Bhmm22xo

I hope Obama won't start to take it again, it would be awful to have another one of those bad speakers

labasta
11-05-08, 08:50 AM
True,

But words are just words. Obama comes across as the perfect president.

otice the emphasis on "comes across". We won't know what he's like yet.

labasta
11-05-08, 08:57 AM
great article except for this bit which seems to paint some fairy tale picture of America, where all things were equal for everyone. New imigrants coming to America didn't face being lynched from trees, inferior educations, sub par socio economic conditions, jim crow and institutionalized racism.

Yes, but come on, they've had 200 years to overcome it. Do they want another 200 years?

Weren't Chinese labourers brought over to build the railroad? How did they fare 200 years later as immigrants?

labasta
11-05-08, 09:03 AM
When I share with Americans my personal experience of living for 30+ years in the former USSR, I hear the same response: "America is not Russia". They could not be more wrong. America is getting more like Russia by the day. People don't believe in their personal effort anymore, they all discuss, how to make the gov't solve all their problems. And everybody (both liberal and 'conservative') believes, gov't is omnipotent. Its "policy on economy" is oh so important!

This is precisely what Russians were and are trying to do. Their only way to solve any problem is to bring a "good czar", whether by revolution or by election.

Yes, America is not Russia. By the same token Lithuania is not Greece. So Lithuania accepted Christianity about 1000 years later with some modifications. But it was still the same religion! Faith in the omnipotent "good government" is the socialist religion, that is haunting Europe for the last 200 years. America is not immune to it.

http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20not%20 found,ID=081103_2510,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml

The only thing Obama will do, is bring more and more regulation in every facet of life. That will create more problems, than solutions. I agree, that current regulation is bad, but it does not mean, there is not enough of it.

Hey Medved, are you "Spock" from the now defunct Libertyforum?

I agreed with most of your posts there. Intelligently written.

labasta
11-05-08, 09:17 AM
Mn's comments are valid on race in the sense that people are INCESTUOUS. They really are. Indians, jews, old boy network whites, you name the group and they employ each other and help each other. It's just human nature. Like is attracted to like. We affiliate more with those like us than not and that does not stop at race. It can even overcome race if the definitive social group is strong enough to override it. You will find this everywhere. Look at yourselves. Look at Eddie Murphy movies which he produced. Spot the non-black man. You won't find one. Same with the Cosby show or the Prince of Bel-Air. Gosh, they really believe in equal opportunity! lol. They think "now it's my turn" yeah! That's how they think. "You've had your shot, by stopping me having mine, now it[s our turn." That sums it up.

I believe this is bad. I believe incestuous relationships are bad, but that is me and not them. If I ran a company I would also be guilty to some degree as to who I would employ.

It's the same in Ireland. You don't get a good job in Ireland unless they know you. Oh, your Mic Murphy's son. etc. That's how they operate. I got my last job because the manager had gone on the same college course as I had, as well as others at the company. You see. I am "one of them" lol!

Even worse in Ireland is the fact that I'm English. I always have to mention who I am in relation to my fiancee. Do you know her? She's Ned Cooney's daughter. He ran the electrical shop and is now retired. I'm constantly trying to show that I am one of them.

Backward, medieval, third-world-like? Of course. Good, no it isn't. But what can you do?

whatnow
11-05-08, 09:25 AM
Just a new member doing a quick reply. Eric you are clueless in terms of Obama's foreign policy. He said he will have no problem sending troops into Pakistan, and taking on Russia head on. Do you really think that these wars will end under Obama?

I hope not to see any of you at Freedom Work Camp 13!

nathanhulick
11-05-08, 09:35 AM
I hope not to see any of you at Freedom Work Camp 13!

I'm sure we will have plenty of time to talk in the bread lines before we ever get to re-education camp!

:)

mikedev10
11-05-08, 10:30 AM
there was a man along the lines of andrew jackson running today, unfortunately the republicans chose to ridicule and ostracize him.

we_are_toast
11-05-08, 11:06 AM
From the Onion:
Nation Finally Shitty Enough To Make Social Progress November 5, 2008 WASHINGTON—

After emerging victorious from one of the most pivotal elections in history, president-elect Barack Obama will assume the role of commander in chief on Jan. 20, shattering a racial barrier the United States is, at long last, shitty enough to overcome.

Although polls going into the final weeks of October showed Sen. Obama in the lead, it remained unclear whether the failing economy, dilapidated housing market, crumbling national infrastructure, health care crisis, energy crisis, and five-year-long disastrous war in Iraq had made the nation crappy enough to rise above 300 years of racial prejudice and make lasting change.

"Today the American people have made their voices heard, and they have said, 'Things are finally as terrible as we're willing to tolerate," said Obama, addressing a crowd of unemployed, uninsured, and debt-ridden supporters. "To elect a black man, in this country, and at this time—these last eight years must have really broken you."

Added Obama, "It's a great day for our nation."

Carrying a majority of the popular vote, Obama did especially well among women and young voters, who polls showed were particularly sensitive to the current climate of everything being fucked. Another contributing factor to Obama's victory, political experts said, may have been the growing number of Americans who, faced with the complete collapse of their country, were at last able to abandon their preconceptions and cast their vote for a progressive African-American.

Citizens with eyes, ears, and the ability to wake up and realize what truly matters in the end are also believed to have played a crucial role in Tuesday's election.

According to a CNN exit poll, 42 percent of voters said that the nation's financial woes had finally become frightening enough to eclipse such concerns as gay marriage, while 30 percent said that the relentless body count in Iraq was at last harrowing enough to outweigh long ideological debates over abortion. In addition, 28 percent of voters were reportedly too busy paying off medical bills, desperately trying not to lose their homes, or watching their futures disappear to dismiss Obama any longer.

"The election of our first African-American president truly shows how far we've come as a nation," said NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams. "Just eight years ago, this moment would have been unthinkable. But finally we, as a country, have joined together, realized we've reached rock bottom, and for the first time voted for a candidate based on his policies rather than the color of his skin."

"Today Americans have grudgingly taken a giant leap forward," Williams continued. "And all it took was severe economic downturn, a bloody and unjust war in Iraq, terrorist attacks on lower Manhattan, nearly 2,000 deaths in New Orleans, and more than three centuries of frequently violent racial turmoil."

Said Williams, "The American people should be commended for their long-overdue courage."

Obama's victory is being called the most significant change in politics since the 1992 election, when a full-scale economic recession led voters to momentarily ignore the fact that candidate Bill Clinton had once smoked marijuana. While many believed things had once again reached an all-time low in 2004, the successful reelection of President George W. Bush—despite historically low approval ratings nationwide—proved that things were not quite shitty enough to challenge the already pretty shitty status quo.

"If Obama learned one thing from his predecessors, it's that timing means everything," said Dr. James Pung, a professor of political science at Princeton University. "Less than a decade ago, Al Gore made the crucial mistake of suggesting we should care about preserving the environment before it became unavoidably clear that global warming would kill us all, and in 2004, John Kerry cost himself the presidency by criticizing Bush's disastrous Iraq policy before everyone realized our invasion had become a complete and total quagmire."

"Obama had the foresight to run for president at a time when being an African-American was not as important to Americans as, say, the ability to clothe and feed their children," Pung continued. "An election like this only comes once, maybe twice, in a lifetime."

As we enter a new era of equality for all people, the election of Barack Obama will decidedly be a milestone in U.S. history, undeniable proof that Americans, when pushed to the very brink, are willing to look past outward appearances and judge a person by the quality of his character and strength of his record. So as long as that person is not a woman.

metalman
11-05-08, 11:15 AM
Carrying a majority of the popular vote, Obama did especially well among women and young voters, who polls showed were particularly sensitive to the current climate of everything being fucked.

i love the f*cking onion!

BrianL
11-05-08, 11:20 AM
Agreed, his speach was excellent.

The booing is forgiveable - for now - as people expressing disappointment and frustration moments after a loss is perfectly rational. If these people continue to boo Obama (without new justification) for the next four years, the democrats have failed.

And I say this will full awareness of the public disappointment and frustration expressed at Bush the last eight years. Any discussion of the validity of these feelings however can only only serve to encourage divide at this point.

Wild Style
11-05-08, 11:33 AM
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{mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> 200 years? I think you are speaking of slavery which “ended” in 1865 and that is 143 yrs ago.

Jim Crow "ended" around 1965 that is 43 years ago. That isn’t even a generation ago on that count. Don't forget about segregation, white only establishments, white citizens terrorizing black citizens because of race etc. This was not 200 yrs ago. Wasn't it in the 90s that a black man was tied to a back of a pickup truck in Texas and drug until his head came off? All because he was black. So no, this institutionalized racism and social inequality is not 200 yrs in the past.

Last year a black journalist Leonardo Blair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qp5WEHua4) was pulled over and arrested in the Bronx NYC for NOTHING. He was only released when he stated he worked for the Post.

I should add, I am black by the way (fathers family from w. Africa and mothers family is Afro American). Growing up in Brooklyn I had a friend who was shot in the face over some argument. They were about 9 blocks away from Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. A mutual friend of ours picks the guy up, and runs with him to the hospital. Cops stop the guy who is carrying our friend, asks them what is going on etc. I swear to God, the cops picked my friends up, took them further away from the hospital and said "get out". My friend was not able to make it to the hospital in time and as a result, he died. PLENTY of stories like this in NYC, heck in Florida too where I now live as well.

Again, I am sure many here who didn't grow up in these kinds of conditions may think these stories may seem a bit farfetched or whatever and that’s ok. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe or understand things that they don't have firsthand experience with. My point is, things are not, nor have they ever been 100% equal in America. Not socially, not economically, not racially. I do believe 100% that there is nothing stopping you regardless of race, creed or color from realizing whatever dream you want to accomplish NOW days though.

The problem among Blacks and Latinos is, they have become "institutionalized" for a lack of a better word. When we have a society with a distant and recent history as disproportionate in equality among races as ours, it becomes a part the society’s fabric. The conditions and behavior of those on the bottom rung then becomes self perpetuating. It will take GENERATIONS to get away from this stuff on BOTH sides of the fence (racism on one side and extreme apathy on the other).

But this is not unique to African Americans. You go to UK and the Pakistanis and Jamaicans are running the gangs and selling drugs and being under achievers. You go to Australia it’s the Lebanese. You go to France and it’s the W. Africans and A'rabs and on and on it goes. Whenever you have segments of ANY population that are marginalized there will be social consequences that come with that.

Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now. It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step. We didn't get to this point over night; where in a black man could become president. It took lynchings, it took beatings, and it took water hoses. It took Abner Louima, it took Ahmado Diallo and took marches, it took vigils and countless other events to take place, but we are finally here.

I would also like to add one other thing. Let’s not paint all African Americans with one brush. One thing I have noticed from immigrants (especially seeing as I have many in my family). They seem to dismiss African American achievements. If it was not for Africans Americans and their struggles for equality in this country Indians, Arabs, Africans and Latinos would not have the rights they have today. Given all the crap African Americans have had to endure for such a prolonged period of time, you have to admit they have come a LONG way.

I am from the junction in Flatbush Brooklyn (ask someone from Brooklyn about that area). I grew up with gang members, drug dealers and the like. I have myself dabbled in street life in my younger years. But something snapped in me one day (won’t get into that) and I went to college, I now have three degrees. I worked for some of America's top companies and accomplished a lot. I have a cousin who was shot in his back when he was 15 (he is 34 now). He is now a quadriplegic. He took the tragedy of that and now owns his own business lecturing at risk kids and counseling kids on how to properly deal with disputes. He also came out of the inner city (Bushwick Brooklyn) and also came from a time period where he dabbled in street life. However we overcame and persevered. But we also saw firsthand what inner city life can do to a person. I grew up with one friend who was dyslexic but because of poor school systems he didn't get any help. As a teacher I met a Puerto Rican kid. The interesting thing about this boy was, he couldn't read much at all. He was 15 years old and was on the reading level of a 4 year old. How the hell was he advanced through the school system?

So no, things are not equal, NO it was not 200 years ago and no, it is not easy to overcome a situation where you have multiple obstacles against you. It can be done, I am living proof of that but it takes a lot of will power, belief and determination. Heck, it took me cutting off almost EVERY childhood friendship I had and going my own way to make it to where I am now. How many people have the will power to do that though? As I said, Obama's presidency is a HUGE step in breaking down the mental and social conditions that helped to foster some of these mentalities we are discussing, but we still have a LONG way to go.
<o:p> </o:p>
P.S. I also should add, that I HOPE it shows people that if you want better schools, you want better conditions then get out there, organize, get grass roots movements going, band together. Students did this in NYC a few years back. They marched on Manhattan to protest the horrible conditions of the schools they are in. One girl showed some of the text books they are given. The books have dozens of pages missing and she said it’s impossible to learn from them. I can attest first hand that this was a wide spread problem in NYC (not sure if it still is). But those youngsters stood together to make a change. Much the same way Obama’s movement taped into the grass roots. I just hope he can deliver on his promise of ending all this corruption and what not. I also think Obama’s win is one step closer to EJ’s economic predictions coming true (hat tip to Mr. Jenszen.)

hellstan
11-05-08, 11:45 AM
Spoken like a true kool-aid drinking European Liberal. In 4 years we will trade you Obama for a six pack of beer, and it doesnt even have to be cold.

You certainly know Europe better than I. :rolleyes:
If you had proposed to send us Bush,
I would have been offended.
I'll gladly accept Obama.
As long as"they" don't shoot him like JFK,
with a bullet shot from a 7-th floor but
entering horizontally, plus another one,
always shot from behind, but striking
full front. :cool:
Only in America.
Or as long as "they" don't do him like RFK,
with a bullet shot by Shirhan from 16 feets,
but creating a wound in the nape, with traces
of powder from another caliber. :confused:
Only in America.
As De Gaulle said to the US ambassador "explaining"
to him : "A lone nut, Mr. President", the french great
man, knowing a bit about assassination plots for
having narrowly escaped two of them, replied :
"Mister Ambassador, please, I beg you, your stories
of cow-boys and Indians, not to me. This was a
plot from high up !"
So, let's hope, no more magic stories of magic bullets…

BrianL
11-05-08, 11:54 AM
I don't think you can be elected president of the US in this climate without statements like that. America is still in a protectionist mindset. A leader who internally expresses any weakness will get eaten alive.

At least right now, the foreign response to Obama seems positive. That suggests a greater amount of faith that the US just decreased the chances it will do something really dumb internationally.

Again, what will matter are his actions. This is just like a buisness hiring a new employee. The interview went well and we made an offer. Unfortunately there is no way to know 100% how well the new hire can execute until you've had a chance to watch them at work for a while.

hellstan
11-05-08, 11:58 AM
At least right now, the foreign response to Obama seems positive. That suggests a greater amount of faith that the US just decreased the chances it will do something really dumb internationally.


"seems positive" : that's an understatement. People here are absolutely thrilled to get rid of a fake US
and hopefully to be confronted again with an America they could (partially, at least) listen, approve or follow.
And that is already a sea change.

BTW, a noble Republican, among many :
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/11/05/colin.powell.reaction.cnn

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 12:46 PM
And what about a falsely repentant falsely ex-alcoholic president being manipulated by an overpowering vice-president, and being elected against
the will of the people, and after a massive electoral fraud in a main southern state ?

The "Bush Derangement Syndrome" (BDS) is strong in you.

I see black and white; you see white and black.

I see up and down; you see down and up.

I see left and right; you see right and left.

I see truth and lies; you see lies and truth.

I doubt that there is any hope for a useful discussion between us, for it is a logical certainty that at least one of the two of us is confused beyond all recall.

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 12:49 PM
Serious mistakes..
But but what three mistakes? I can get as far as guessing that you are numbering Obama as mistake Number 3, but what are you numbering (or think I am numbering) as mistakes Numbers 1 and 2 ?

hellstan
11-05-08, 12:51 PM
Hopefully, a strong Obama potion against BDS should cure part of the diseased… But the cure should be painful. We should save most of the cows too. :D

whatnow
11-05-08, 01:05 PM
I agree with your sentiments. Honestly the only thing I fear from an Obama presidency is the possiblitly of using his charisma to make war palatable to the entire country. I don't believe him one bit on his Iraq plans. Responsible phased withdrawal? I guess Saigon '75 could have been considered the last phase of a withdrawal! :)

nathanhulick
11-05-08, 01:08 PM
You certainly know Europe better than I. :rolleyes:
If you had proposed to send us Bush,
I would have been offended.
I'll gladly accept Obama.
As long as"they" don't shoot him like JFK,
with a bullet shot from a 7-th floor but
entering horizontally, plus another one,
always shot from behind, but striking
full front. :cool:
Only in America.
Or as long as "they" don't do him like RFK,
with a bullet shot by Shirhan from 16 feets,
but creating a wound in the nape, with traces
of powder from another caliber. :confused:
Only in America.
As De Gaulle said to the US ambassador "explaining"
to him : "A lone nut, Mr. President", the french great
man, knowing a bit about assassination plots for
having narrowly escaped two of them, replied :
"Mister Ambassador, please, I beg you, your stories
of cow-boys and Indians, not to me. This was a
plot from high up !"
So, let's hope, no more magic stories of magic bullets…

Fox Mulder? I didnt know you posted here!

ThePythonicCow
11-05-08, 02:06 PM
Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now.
Good post - you describe the above hope, and the reasons for it, well.


It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step.
I predict that your hopes will not be realized.

The socialism, drifting progressively toward Marxism, that Obama's puppet masters stand for is what destroys people's own initiative. The rot, racial and other, that we have in some of our failed cities, such as Detroit and New Orleans, and in failed neighborhoods of many other cities, will extend over greater swaths of America.

Obama is relatively safe from assassination risk, for the reason that he will do the bidding of the Money Masters (JPMorgan/Fed/Treasury/Goldman/CFR/...), as guided by his financial advisors such as Rubin and Volker, and socialist advisors such as Ayers.

You will be glad to learn (or perhaps not) that I restocked my aluminum foil supply ths morning, and my conspiracy theory generating machine is back in full working order again. :rolleyes:.

I now suspect that the "October Surprise" that got Obama elected was the financial collapse of this year, engineered in part by the afore mentioned Money Masters. Directly (such as via JPMorgan, the largest holder of swaps and derivatives) or indirectly (such as via AIG, the largest "insurer", meaning largest counter-party, in swaps, who is now controlled by Treasury), and further with their direct control over LIBOR (which is simply a reporting to London of unverifiable statistics by the Money Masters) and the Baltic Dry Index (BDI, which failed when letters of credit were not honored by these same Money Masters), JPMorgan and friends had all the means necessary at their disposal to engineer this panic. They built this house of financial swaps and securitized bad debt paper provided by their good friends over at Fannie and Freddie, mostly over the last eight years. Now it was time to pull a couple cards out from the foundation and collect the bets of the other players foolish enough to be in this rigged game.

The timing of events under the control of JPMorgan and associates, the Money Masters, over the last nine months which led to the victory of Obama seems too well done to be just an accident. Follow the money; follow the timing. The Financial Panic of 2008 got Obama elected, it got a bigger debt burden (the means of our enslavement) placed on the backs of the American taxpayer, and it consolidated more financial power into the hands of the few.

Ayers "married" Morgan, delivering the illegitimate child Obama up as a useful pawn, dressed up in a Presidents Halloween costume. The interests of the Marxists and Money Masters are joined, both seeking a bigger, more intrusive, Federal government.

There will be depressing economic times in the next two years, as there was in 1933-34, with similar affect, that being another New Deal, with its alphabet soup of socalist programs. Somewhat more behind the scenes, the Bankers Reconsolidation Act of 2008 will continue, as JPMorgan and associates destroy or consume more of America's banking system, perhaps partially disguised as Treasury taking more control of JPMorgan (which will enable dumping the overflowing JPMorgan 'Garbage Can' of toxic waste financial paper on the backs of the American taxpayer) and CitiGroup (destroying whatever independent power Citi still had.)

... hmmm ... that was an especially good batch of tin foil ... I should go back to that same store now and buy whatever remains of it on the shelf.

tombat1913
11-05-08, 02:27 PM
Labasta

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Jim Crow "ended" around 1965 that is 43 years ago. That isn’t even a generation ago on that count. Don't forget about segregation, white only establishments, white citizens terrorizing black citizens because of race etc. This was not 200 yrs ago. Wasn't it in the 90s that a black man was tied to a back of a pickup truck in Texas and drug until his head came off? All because he was black. So no, this institutionalized racism and social inequality is not 200 yrs in the past.

Last year a black journalist Leonardo Blair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qp5WEHua4) was pulled over and arrested in the Bronx NYC for NOTHING. He was only released when he stated he worked for the Post.

I should add, I am black by the way (fathers family from w. Africa and mothers family is Afro American). Growing up in Brooklyn I had a friend who was shot in the face over some argument. They were about 9 blocks away from Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. A mutual friend of ours picks the guy up, and runs with him to the hospital. Cops stop the guy who is carrying our friend, asks them what is going on etc. I swear to God, the cops picked my friends up, took them further away from the hospital and said "get out". My friend was not able to make it to the hospital in time and as a result, he died. PLENTY of stories like this in NYC, heck in Florida too where I now live as well.

Again, I am sure many here who didn't grow up in these kinds of conditions may think these stories may seem a bit farfetched or whatever and that’s ok. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe or understand things that they don't have firsthand experience with. My point is, things are not, nor have they ever been 100% equal in America. Not socially, not economically, not racially. I do believe 100% that there is nothing stopping you regardless of race, creed or color from realizing whatever dream you want to accomplish NOW days though.

The problem among Blacks and Latinos is, they have become "institutionalized" for a lack of a better word. When we have a society with a distant and recent history as disproportionate in equality among races as ours, it becomes a part the society’s fabric. The conditions and behavior of those on the bottom rung then becomes self perpetuating. It will take GENERATIONS to get away from this stuff on BOTH sides of the fence (racism on one side and extreme apathy on the other).

But this is not unique to African Americans. You go to UK and the Pakistanis and Jamaicans are running the gangs and selling drugs and being under achievers. You go to Australia it’s the Lebanese. You go to France and it’s the W. Africans and A'rabs and on and on it goes. Whenever you have segments of ANY population that are marginalized there will be social consequences that come with that.

Weather you like Obama or not or if you fear he is the devil in disguise, there is one big thing that comes with his presidency. That is, it breaks down the mental walls that have been put in place here in the states for so long. It shows we are not as bigoted as we once thought we were. It shows that anything is possible in America regardless of race. As a result it now gives minorities (not just African Americans) the clear picture that if you are willing to go out there and "get it", goals can be obtained and there is NOTHING that can stop you now. It will still take a generation or two in order to totally get away from the self perpetuating institutionalized mindset in some inner cities but still this is the first step. We didn't get to this point over night; where in a black man could become president. It took lynchings, it took beatings, and it took water hoses. It took Abner Louima, it took Ahmado Diallo and took marches, it took vigils and countless other events to take place, but we are finally here.

I would also like to add one other thing. Let’s not paint all African Americans with one brush. One thing I have noticed from immigrants (especially seeing as I have many in my family). They seem to dismiss African American achievements. If it was not for Africans Americans and their struggles for equality in this country Indians, Arabs, Africans and Latinos would not have the rights they have today. Given all the crap African Americans have had to endure for such a prolonged period of time, you have to admit they have come a LONG way.

I am from the junction in Flatbush Brooklyn (ask someone from Brooklyn about that area). I grew up with gang members, drug dealers and the like. I have myself dabbled in street life in my younger years. But something snapped in me one day (won’t get into that) and I went to college, I now have three degrees. I worked for some of America's top companies and accomplished a lot. I have a cousin who was shot in his back when he was 15 (he is 34 now). He is now a quadriplegic. He took the tragedy of that and now owns his own business lecturing at risk kids and counseling kids on how to properly deal with disputes. He also came out of the inner city (Bushwick Brooklyn) and also came from a time period where he dabbled in street life. However we overcame and persevered. But we also saw firsthand what inner city life can do to a person. I grew up with one friend who was dyslexic but because of poor school systems he didn't get any help. As a teacher I met a Puerto Rican kid. The interesting thing about this boy was, he couldn't read much at all. He was 15 years old and was on the reading level of a 4 year old. How the hell was he advanced through the school system?

So no, things are not equal, NO it was not 200 years ago and no, it is not easy to overcome a situation where you have multiple obstacles against you. It can be done, I am living proof of that but it takes a lot of will power, belief and determination. Heck, it took me cutting off almost EVERY childhood friendship I had and going my own way to make it to where I am now. How many people have the will power to do that though? As I said, Obama's presidency is a HUGE step in breaking down the mental and social conditions that helped to foster some of these mentalities we are discussing, but we still have a LONG way to go.
<O:p> </O:p>
P.S. I also should add, that I HOPE it shows people that if you want better schools, you want better conditions then get out there, organize, get grass roots movements going, band together. Students did this in NYC a few years back. They marched on Manhattan to protest the horrible conditions of the schools they are in. One girl showed some of the text books they are given. The books have dozens of pages missing and she said it’s impossible to learn from them. I can attest first hand that this was a wide spread problem in NYC (not sure if it still is). But those youngsters stood together to make a change. Much the same way Obama’s movement taped into the grass roots. I just hope he can deliver on his promise of ending all this corruption and what not. I also think Obama’s win is one step closer to EJ’s economic predictions coming true (hat tip to Mr. Jenszen.)

I liked your post, and I absolutely agree that the racism isn't gone and the playing field isn't level. However, about the grassroots philosophy I don't think Obama applies. The biggest grassroots campaign in history was for Ron Paul bar none. The Obama campaign has been well funded by powerful people and has been nicely packaged at an opportune time when anti-Republican sentiment is maxed out.

xela
11-05-08, 02:33 PM
But but what three mistakes? I can get as far as guessing that you are numbering Obama as mistake Number 3, but what are you numbering (or think I am numbering) as mistakes Numbers 1 and 2 ?
Thought that was obvious: the past 2 elections of course...since you said "I watch people. I know him. America just made a serious mistake."
What you guys ever saw in Bush jr. I'll never understand, especially vs Gore in 2000 :)

jdv
11-05-08, 02:48 PM
Fewer and fewer Americans understand the difference between (1) a limited government, formed by responsible citizens to accomplish certain tasks for the common good, within specific enumerated powers, and (2) a government that provides for and is responsible for the general well being of its subjects, providing them with various benefits misnamed as "rights".

The founding notion of America, that we all have unalienable rights, preordained by our Creator, not doled out by some government, and that governments have only limited authority, voluntarilly consented to and perhaps later withdrawn by those forming it, all seem like a quaint anachronism to what is now, clearly by this election, a majority of voting Americans.

[Insert sound of Taps playing on a lone, sad bugle :(]

PythonicCow - I get the sense you are a strong Republican, and that you took offense on a George Bush rant I made in another thread.

You and I are not so far apart on our wish for a small unobtrusive goverment. But how did you reconcile your believe in a small, limited authority goverment with the big goverment, big spending goverment of the last 8 years.

I guess I'm asking you to speak as a representative of the people further right than I am. Unfair perhaps, but I am still curious.

The patriot act, unconstitutional wiretapping that violated the law, Dept of Homeland Security (doesn't that sound straight out of the USSR!), aggressive unilateral foreign policy, cronyism, and massive massive goverment spending. Massive socialization of our financial system. As they say ... privatize the gains and socialize the losses. A complete lack of interest in investigating the fraud and corruption that went on in Iraq. And nobody was accountable, when something went wrong, no one ever got fired. (Well, except for Brownie once the din got loud enough). The abandonment of the rule of law when it was inconvenient...

Didn't that drive you crazy? Or was it ok because it was done by "your" party?

See I believe, perhaps unfairly, that those who support George Bush's policies and directions would have gone absolutely crazy if Bill Clinton had instituted them. Or if Obama had been the one, then the cries of marxist would be extremely loud from the far right.

How is it you reconcile that? Or am I being unfair?
(and this isn't limited to PythonicCow, anyone else conservative that would like to take this on, please - I am truly very curious and have been for a long time)

My father is one of the 27% that still favorably views George Bush. And that's fine. But it seems to me that he at least has double standards.

nathanhulick
11-05-08, 03:18 PM
PythonicCow - I get the sense you are a strong Republican, and that you took offense on a George Bush rant I made in another thread.

You and I are not so far apart on our wish for a small unobtrusive goverment. But how did you reconcile your believe in a small, limited authority goverment with the big goverment, big spending goverment of the last 8 years.

I guess I'm asking you to speak as a representative of the people further right than I am. Unfair perhaps, but I am still curious.

The patriot act, unconstitutional wiretapping that violated the law, Dept of Homeland Security (doesn't that sound straight out of the USSR!), aggressive unilateral foreign policy, cronyism, and massive massive goverment spending. Massive socialization of our financial system. As they say ... privatize the gains and socialize the losses. A complete lack of interest in investigating the fraud and corruption that went on in Iraq. And nobody was accountable, when something went wrong, no one ever got fired. (Well, except for Brownie once the din got loud enough). The abandonment of the rule of law when it was inconvenient...

Didn't that drive you crazy? Or was it ok because it was done by "your" party?

See I believe, perhaps unfairly, that those who support George Bush's policies and directions would have gone absolutely crazy if Bill Clinton had instituted them. Or if Obama had been the one, then the cries of marxist would be extremely loud from the far right.

How is it you reconcile that? Or am I being unfair?
(and this isn't limited to PythonicCow, anyone else conservative that would like to take this on, please - I am truly very curious and have been for a long time)

My father is one of the 27% that still favorably views George Bush. And that's fine. But it seems to me that he at least has double standards.

You are exactly right. A large number of people, perhaps even a majority, in both parties seem to be unable to think for themselves. These people simply point across the aisle and shout, "Foul!" when someone on the other team does something they disapprove of. When it is pointed out to them that someone in their own party did the same thing, they blame a biased media, or rationalize it away somehow.

I can only imagine the response from the left had Bush been caught having sex with an intern in the White House, had numerous sex scandals, blew up a foreign embassy, traded pardons for political favors, or any of the myriad of scandals that Clinton had.

FRED
11-05-08, 03:27 PM
This thread, along with the Election 2008 Forum, are a departure from our usual no-politics policy. Now that the election is over, we'd like our members to return to the primary focus of iTulip, the markets and economy.

Thank you everyone for your very thoughtful responses. Now let's figure out what this all means for our investments.