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BiscayneSunrise
04-12-08, 04:25 AM
Speculation from the Boyd Group of Denver about what the US airline industry will look like with oil making new highs. There has been much speculation about mergers in the US airline industry, all intended to reduce capacity, which would allow the surviving airline to raise prices. If industry consolidation can't happen for whatever reason, then the airlines will begin reducing capacity unilaterally.

If this pace continues, then airline flying will be what it was in the 30's and 50's; the preserve of the wealthy. No more weekend getaways to Vegas, etc.

Perhaps the beneficiaries of airline cutbacks will be the rent-a-car companies and those companies providing virtual conferencing.

Interesting Boyd Group Article
-----
At $110 Oil - There's No Easy Way Out. Airline Market Planning Hits The Rewind Button Tumble to it: from every financial and strategic perspective, the airline industry's just gotten nuked. The reality is that $100+ oil is not going away. A lot of airplanes and a lot of markets are now well below the financial waterline. That by itself means that much of the air transportation system - as currently structured - is essentially non-economic. Going forward, a lot of things are going to be different. Schedules, market flows, and fleets need to be re-structured... and fast. There's no time for airlines to form vapid task teams and engage in backroom political posturing. The bomb's been dropped, and the financial neighborhood they've known for the last 20 years has been vaporized. This is not a cyclical change. It's one that dictates a whole new approach to the US air transportation system. Add to this the possibility of a consumer downturn (albeit at least partially created by sensational media reporting with no basis in fact) and one thing is clear. It's DEFCON 1 time for the US airline industry.

One key competitive factor: leadership and vision in the airline front office. Just as doing nothing can be lethal, so can doing the wrong things. Airlines with the strongest, most decisive and most focused CEOs are those which have the best chances of crafting solutions for the future. Those few carriers with CEOs who wait to get cribsheets from outside advisors before making a decision are essentially deer in the financial headlights. And they'll probably make the wrong decisions, anyway. Air Transportation System: Shrinking Fast. The point is that constriction, not consolidation, may be at immediate hand. That's because at $3+ a gallon jet-A, the number of communities that can be economically served - regardless of the number of airlines in existence - is going to drop like a baby grand off the 43rd floor. As our Global Fleet Forecast has noted, not one airliner in the US skies was designed with $100 oil in mind. Consolidation of airlines may or may not occur. Eventually. What is certain, however, is the near-term reduction in air service levels. What's also certain is that several cost components of the airline business will need to change very quickly, or we're going to see not just less flying, but less airlines - mergers or not. One of these, as we pointed out last week, is the imperative to shed large numbers of RJs that are being leased on a fuel-cost-plus basis. Delta has already announced the end of RJ service to SLC from BLI and FAR, as well as ATL RJ service to ISP and ACY. And these are likely just the warm-up act to one whale of a chainsaw application to the air service network as we know it today.

Another outcome may be the acceleration in retirement of older, paid-for mainline aircraft that were previously expected to remain in-fleet for the next several years. Running Full Airplanes And Bleeding Cash. The fact is that fuel costs have come over the transom in many markets that may have until recently been system-revenue contributors. An Airports:USA® flow analysis of ISP-ATL directional traffic and revenue indicates clearly why Delta has no choice but to dump the route as quickly as possible. These data are from analyses of 3Q 2007, factoring in estimates of current fuel costs. Thin is the only way of putting it. Considering that almost two-thirds of the ISP-ATL passengers are connecting to other flights, the system contribution is microscopic, if at all, particularly when spill is factored in. When the ASM costs may be pushing 17 cents or higher, even with an 83%-plus load factor, the combination of escalating fuel prices and the fact that much of the flow traffic is connecting on to other high-cost flights, we have a conclusion: the ISP-ATL market's become a threat to Delta, not an asset.

It's not just Delta. American, for example, is saddled with a fleet of 37-seat and 44-seat ERJs, which enjoy most of the sector costs of their larger 50-seat siblings. High fuel costs can be lethal to markets in all sectors of a comprehensive network carrier (CNC) system. That in turn is threatening to undermine one of the key advantages the comprehensive network carriers have had compared to LCCs: the flexibility to access stronger and more diverse revenue streams. Much of the new business-travel revenues are being generated from emerging secondary cities in the Midwest and the Deep South. They have small populations that are not supportive of larger units of capacity, but have new industrial plants that generate strong incremental domestic - and strong international - traffic. As smaller jets become increasingly non-economic, the ability of CNCs to access these revenues starts to go south, and fast. Then there's the "servo effect" of cutting hub spokes. There's less feed, and that means some diminution in revenue to other, currently-viable hub spokes. It weakens the entire system to one degree or another. After 50-Seaters, The Next Plane Up Is 130+ Seats. Maybe. There's no question that RJ
economics have been going in the wrong direction for years. The Boyd Group accurately forecast a glut of these machines well before OPEC and hedge funds started to get frisky with oil price games.

But the real danger now is that most US carriers are stuck with the "100-seat capacity gap." Take American. As 50-seat (and smaller) jets gravitate toward the operational dog pound, the smallest pieces of iron AA has are 140-seat MD-80s. (Give or take the miniscule Eagle fleet of 25 CRJ-700s.) That describes a decision conundrum that's pretty ugly. AA can operate markets with RJs that provide negative system margins, or operate them with airliners way too large and too sector-cost expensive, or drop such markets entirely. This also points to the possibility of AA retiring a number of MD-80s (nee "Super-80s") from its fleet to cut costs. Or NW suddenly slashing out the last of its DC-9s from its fleet. (Note that these are the mainstay of the NW focus operation at IND, along with CRJs. Conclusions can be drawn.)

Air Traffic Control Hit: Time Just Ran Out. The airline industry is not entirely the victim in this mess. The industry has known for decades that the deteriorating ATC system was costing it billions annually - excess costs that today are contributing to the need to slash flying. In 1994, The Boyd Group testified to Congress regarding the enormous excess cost burden being inflicted on airlines due to the obsolete and deteriorating ATC system. The bottom line then was $5 billion in excess costs, all up. Internal studies by United and American indicated around $1 billion being drained just from those two carriers. Along with the ATH Group, we noted that airline CEOs should "form a conga line" into the FAA Administrator's office, demanding action. Their companies and their passengers were being materially harmed by the lack of ATC progress at the FAA. That was 14 years ago. Nothing - yes, nothing - has been done to substantively address the ATC issue. It's gotten worse and worse year after year. And far from a conga line, the airline industry took the role of cheerleader on the cocktail-party circuit for a succession of Administrators whose main claim to fame is that they consistently accomplished nothing. At the FAA, "nothing" is the operative word when it comes to ATC. Political correctness has a price - we estimate that the $5 billion is now around $9 billion. The FAA's NextGen scam is fully supported by the industry, which means they're several zip codes away from supporting anything but continued failure. But it's too late now. There's no fix on the horizon. The $9 billion that the airlines could be saving is still going down the financial garbage disposal.

Red Pencil Days In The Planning Department. Airlines have very little leeway. And very little time until the situation starts to punch serious holes in their cash piggy-banks. They can't do anything now about the 12% - 15% extra flying necessary to be scheduled due to ATC inefficiencies. Labor is in no mood for more concessions - quite the contrary. A lot of costs have already been cut in the wake of 9/11. The concept of dynamic management of the entire airline production line (such as the Attila(R) system from the ATH Group) is still foreign to most carriers. All this points to only one immediate option: cutting back on flying to cull a growing number of loss leaders such as FAR-SLC and ISP-ATL. Airline planners will be drawing red lines through a lot of markets in the weeks ahead. Partially or entirely shutting down wholly-owned small jet providers, such as Comair or American Eagle, is not out of the question. (And the potential for selling them off is zero. Let's get real. If they can't make money with these entities, an outside buyer can't, either.) It's possible that some current connecting hubs may be cut way back - maybe to the point of reducing a couple to being, at best, focus city operations. Some big announcements are likely. For mid-size and small airports, the next few weeks may not be much fun. Exciting. But not fun.

metalman
04-12-08, 06:50 AM
good one. i meant to short airlines back when ej made the debt deflation bear market call... very vulnerable to inflation + recession with rising costs and falling demand. may be too late to pick up the big bucks... in any case, anyone who's asking "how come the stock market isn't pricing in recession" need only look at these stocks. only stocks holding up are those of companies that can take advantage of a weak dollar via exports and are immune to falling demand in the usa... for airlines it's the worst of all worlds.

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/a/amr

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/u/uaua

Mega
04-12-08, 08:44 AM
I notice:-

Lots of smaller Airlines going bust
Lots of Airlines..."Doing safety checks".

Mega

metalman
04-12-08, 09:56 AM
I notice:-

Lots of smaller Airlines going bust
Lots of Airlines..."Doing safety checks".

Mega

anyone care to bet how long until usa airlines are nationalized? i'll throw out... 2010.

dbarberic
04-12-08, 09:58 AM
I had the chance to fly last night on Continental's brand new propeller airplane (Dash-8 Q400). Yes... that is right... back to the future with a propeller airplane.

Continental is dumping their Embraer regional jets for these propeller Dash-8s. The next generation Q400 series propeller planes are more fuel efficent than the jets.

metalman
04-12-08, 10:07 AM
I had the chance to fly last night on Continental's brand new propeller airplane (Dash-8 Q400). Yes... that is right... back to the future with a propeller airplane.

Continental is dumping their Embraer regional jets for these propeller Dash-8s. The next generation Q400 series propeller planes are more fuel efficent than the jets.

great :mad: soon enough they'll be flying blimps. :eek:

Verrocchio
04-12-08, 01:38 PM
Thanks for posting this, BS. Your report gives us an insider perspective on the pockets of turbulence the airlines have entered. However, Big Air's problems may accelerate the expansion plans of DayJet (http://www.dayjet.com/), a new passenger airline that is expanding rapidly throughout the southeast. DayJet flies Eclipse (http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclipse_500/)VLJs, Very Light Jets, and will fly into areas where it's too costly, both in time and money, for the consumer to take a regional jet or too drive. They offer a price and time competitive alternative because of the design of their VLJs and passenger decision-making models undergirded by highly complex mathematical simulations.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/images/eclipse_500/hdr_img_gallery.jpg

Iacobucci set up DayJet. He came out of the tech industry (IBM and Citrix); maybe EJ is acquainted.

Rajiv
04-12-08, 02:31 PM
More info on the Q-400 (http://www.q400.com/q400/en/turbo.jsp)

Significantly lower fuel burns, the result of the turboprop powerplant being more efficient, especially at shorter distances, help to give the Q400 the lowest operating costs per seat in the regional aircraft market.

rj1
04-12-08, 03:12 PM
Significantly lower fuel burns, the result of the turboprop powerplant being more efficient, especially at shorter distances, help to give the Q400 the lowest operating costs per seat in the regional aircraft market.

Consumers hate DeHavilland Dash-8's though cause they're a lot noisier. Which I laugh at cause I fly in two-seaters with the door open.

And really, this DayJet, is what Biscayne was saying in his post, that flying will become a luxury of the wealthy like it was in the '40s and '50s.

Personally, I think railroad travel could get a second wind as a mini-boom. Anyone else?

rj1
04-12-08, 03:14 PM
anyone care to bet how long until usa airlines are nationalized? i'll throw out... 2010.

They won't be nationalized cause that would require the Republicans to publicly admit they're doing socialism. They'll instead give tax breaks and subsidies.

Mega
04-12-08, 04:35 PM
i Expect vast numbers of Jets to be bought up (Cheap) after the crash by China/India.......we are seeing a shift of power from the West to Asia!
Mega

Rajiv
04-12-08, 10:11 PM
Delta, Northwest could announce merger next week (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2008-04-08-nwa-delta-talks_N.htm)

Pressured by extraordinary jet fuel prices, Delta (DAL) and Northwest (NWA) airlines want to announce a merger deal as soon as next week, according to two sources briefed on the airlines' plans.

The companies, which were ready to announce a merger in February, have held off for two months in hopes the unions representing their pilots would agree quickly on how to merge their memberships. Merging the pilots into one union with one labor contract would allow the airlines to use each others' planes, airport gates and pilots most efficiently as soon as the merger closed.

Although the pilots have not come to agreement, the companies feel pressured to move forward now with a merger — with or without an agreement between the pilot groups — because of the crisis in jet fuel prices, the sources say.

Verrocchio
04-12-08, 10:23 PM
And really, this DayJet, is what Biscayne was saying in his post, that flying will become a luxury of the wealthy like it was in the '40s and '50s.


Not really at all, the business model of DayJet is to offer air travel for less time and money than it would take to drive.

BiscayneSunrise
04-13-08, 07:11 AM
Day Jet is a great concept. The idea is to make private jets affordable to the middle class. I am very familiar with them since they are right here in my back yard. Arguably, they are green technology, infrastructure play because the founder, being a software guy, says that his competitive advantage stems from his proprietary software program that efficiently matches passengers and airplanes in a ride share concept with fellow passenger, offering much greater productivity.

Up to now, a large expense of the operation of a charter jet is in the ferrying of the airplane empty to pick up the next set of passengers. Day Jet seeks to minimize that ferrying inefficiency to zero bringing the cost down close to first class airline prices.

Their model is highly effective on the short haul (200-600 miles) between secondary and tertiary cities. For instance, a flight between Boca Raton and Tallahassee (about 300 miles) would cost about $250 on Day Jet vs. $150 on the local regional jet. The premium is well worth it to many people given that with Day Jet you get to drive right up to the airplane, fly out of a small airport closer to your home or office, no hassle with security and preclude the need to stop in a hub and connect or worse, waste a day driving.

As for my point about only the wealthy being able to fly given current trends, I think Day Jet prices will go up, and possibly lose some customers, but they will still capture a proportionate share of market from the airlines.

PS: I see Verrochio used the acronym of my screen name, BS. Unfortunate that my screen name is shortened to that. I guess I should have done better due diligence when I dreamed up Biscayne Sunrise. No worries, hopefully the group here doesn't think that postings from BS are BS! :D

rabot10
04-14-08, 03:34 PM
i Expect vast numbers of Jets to be bought up (Cheap) after the crash by China/India.......we are seeing a shift of power from the West to Asia!
Mega

And your point is???? Love ya but that makes no sense big guy.

c1ue
04-14-08, 03:49 PM
My recent flights to Europe: under $500 for Zurich; under $600 for St. Petersburg, under $500 for London.

Admittedly these were winter fares, but still low by the standards of the past 7 years.

Flights were all full, but I'd bet average revenue was WAY down.

Flights to Asia, on the other hand, have been trending up for some time.

5 years ago I could regularly get $500 tix to Japan, now I'm dancing if I get something for $800.

My compatriots still in the semiconductor side are universally saying travel is restricted for the foreseeable future...not a good sign.

BiscayneSunrise
04-14-08, 06:05 PM
Interesting to note that today United Airlines said it was postponing its' new service from San Francisco to Guangzhou. They said it was due to high fuel prices. You'd figure that in one of the hottest markets in the world United could charge a high enough ticket price to cover the cost of the fuel.

The Boyd opinion says that the first routes to feel the heat of high fuel prices would be the tertiary cities. This united announcement is somewhat unexpected which leaves me with one of two conclusions:

Either United is afraid of drawing traffic away from some of its other trans-Pacific routes or maybe the traffic to China is beginning to wane.

Verrocchio
04-14-08, 09:59 PM
PS: I see Verrochio used the acronym of my screen name, BS. Unfortunate that my screen name is shortened to that. I guess I should have done better due diligence when I dreamed up Biscayne Sunrise. No worries, hopefully the group here doesn't think that postings from BS are BS! :D

No, BiscayneSunrise, I merely experienced a moment of laziness in keyboarding. Really, no BS!:D

BiscayneSunrise
04-15-08, 05:03 AM
Mega is just stating the obvious as he is want to do. I recently read that something like 40% of corporate jet deliveries over the next few years are slated for Asia.

In another generation, the airports around the ski resorts of Nepal will look like those in Aspen and Vail. ;)

BiscayneSunrise
04-15-08, 05:09 AM
Flying will become more of a luxury, so I expect not as much discretionary travel, at least at the low end. But for the harried business person traveling 200-600 miles, Day Jet will still offer an attractive alternative.

dbarberic
04-15-08, 12:24 PM
From Times OnlineApril 14, 2008
Oil price surge propels planes back to basics

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3745007.ece

With oil prices hovering at close to $110 a barrel, many are betting that new technologies — biofuels, hydrogen cells and solar power among them — will solve the world's energy crisis. A large part of the airline industry, however, is looking back to basics: planes with propellers.

In the market for passenger planes with fewer than 70 seats, turboprop aircraft, once condemned for the relatively noisy and bumpy ride passengers endure, are now outselling the equivalent regional jets by two-to-one, according to industry estimates.

"Propeller-driven craft enjoy massive fuel benefits on shorter journeys," Kapil Kaul, the chief executive of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation, said.
For a journey of less than about 600 nautical miles, or about 90 minutes' flying time, a turboprob may use as much as 70 per cent less fuel than a similar-sized jet, he added.


Wow... I've heard of the fuel efficiency, but I didn't realize that it offers up to a 70% cut.

GRG55
04-16-08, 08:00 AM
Speculation from the Boyd Group of Denver about what the US airline industry will look like with oil making new highs. There has been much speculation about mergers in the US airline industry, all intended to reduce capacity, which would allow the surviving airline to raise prices. If industry consolidation can't happen for whatever reason, then the airlines will begin reducing capacity unilaterally.

If this pace continues, then airline flying will be what it was in the 30's and 50's; the preserve of the wealthy. No more weekend getaways to Vegas, etc.

Perhaps the beneficiaries of airline cutbacks will be the rent-a-car companies and those companies providing virtual conferencing...


It's not just in the USA or Europe where "irrational" capacity expansions leading to losses, leading to consolidation plays out in the aviation world. There was an article in yesterday's FT titled "Indian airlines face mergers as losses hit $ 1bn". Here's the reason...

Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Air passenger growth fails to keep pace with capacity addition


New Delhi: Domestic passenger traffic in the first quarter (January-March) of this calendar year grew by 11 per cent, but the much-talked-about consolidation of capacity was not evident as carriers added more flights and enhanced capacity, which grew by 26 per cent in the same period...
http://avindia.blogspot.com/2008/04/air-passenger-growth-fails-to-keep-pace.html

BiscayneSunrise
04-16-08, 09:11 AM
Interesting. That looks like a replay of the US airline industry after de-regulation in 1978 where there were too many airlines fighting over market share with suicidal fare wars. The result ended badly.

rj1
06-10-08, 07:17 PM
So how about an update to this thread where oil is no longer $100, is now circa $135, airlines have cut flights and raised prices?

GRG55
06-11-08, 05:50 AM
So how about an update to this thread where oil is no longer $100, is now circa $135, airlines have cut flights and raised prices?

I am just trying to book a "cheap" cross-Atlantic flight to London, UK later this summer. Base fares for economy return still look pretty reasonable.

Here's the catch. Fuel surcharges are now running more than 40% on top of the base fare :eek:. The various airport fees and taxes on both ends add almost 20%. So the cheap fare isn't so cheap any more... :(

c1ue
06-11-08, 12:44 PM
Unless you have to be in the UK, I wouldn't use any of those airports for cross-Atlantic jaunts.

LHR in particular has jacked up taxes something like $100 per ticket, more for biz class. Toss in the single carry on policy and the general crappiness of the airport...

AMS, FRA, or even ZRH

I had a $497 ticket to ZRH earlier this year - admittedly off-peak - but including all taxes/fees.

My wife is headed for Russia in 2 weeks, and her ticket to FRA was only $940 all in.

rj1
06-17-08, 07:12 PM
Paul Krugman blog post titled "The World Gets Bigger":

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/the-world-gets-bigger/


Many people have noticed that higher fuel prices are putting the brakes on globalization: if it costs more to ship stuff, there will be less shipping.
How big is this effect? We know that the volume of trade between any two countries falls a lot with distance; this indicates that trade is quite sensitive to transport costs. This study (http://www.econ.ox.ac.uk/members/tony.venables/nltv.pdf) gives a number:
[D]oubling transport costs from their median value … reduces trade volumes by 45%. Moving from the median value of transport costs to the 75th percentile … cuts trade volumes by two-thirds.
Now, the fuel price increase doesn’t have that large an effect — at least not yet. But a very back-of-the envelope calculation using CIBC estimates (http://www.ictsd.org/weekly/08-06-04/story4.htm) of the fuel cost effect gives me a 17 percent contraction in trade if oil prices stay at current levels for a long time.
Business travel will also be affected. Via Felix Salmon, airlines are starting to cut long-distance nonstops (http://www.portfolio.com/business-travel/seat-2B/2008/06/17/Airline-Contraction-Survival-Tips?rss=true). Why? Because a nonstop from, say, NY to Singapore is kind of like a rocket ship: a lot of the fuel it carries is being burned to carry additional fuel, which makes overall fuel efficiency lower than a journey with refueling stops along the way. Of course, those non-nonstop trips take longer, so the world in effect gets bigger.
Interesting stuff. Fortunately, I no longer have to do a lot of flying to SE Asia and South America to keep tabs on the world financial crisis; I can get there on New Jersey Transit.

Wild Style
07-07-08, 05:56 AM
From Times OnlineApril 14, 2008
Oil price surge propels planes back to basics

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3745007.ece


Wow... I've heard of the fuel efficiency, but I didn't realize that it offers up to a 70% cut.I flew from Philly to NYC the other day on one of these Prop planes. Seems companies are starting to use these on short flights. Man that ride was bumpy as hell.

GRG55
07-07-08, 08:06 AM
I flew from Philly to NYC the other day on one of these Prop planes. Seems companies are starting to use these on short flights. Man that ride was bumpy as hell.

It's bumpy because these aircraft fly at much lower altitudes than jets, and therefore are more subject to mechanical and convective turbulence because they can't get "above the weather". This is especially so in summer months, and particularly this summer in parts of the USA because the jet stream is well south of normal and that's creating huge swaths of unstable air across much of the center of the continent.

The other reason is that these aircraft are often STOL (short take-off and landing) with comparatively low wing loading to allow them to land and take-off from much shorter runways than a jet requires. The lower wing loading means they get bounced around more in the turbulence. Hopefully the coffee was good...:rolleyes:

EJ
07-07-08, 10:28 AM
It's bumpy because these aircraft fly at much lower altitudes than jets, and therefore are more subject to mechanical and convective turbulence because they can't get "above the weather". This is especially so in summer months, and particularly this summer in parts of the USA because the jet stream is well south of normal and that's creating huge swaths of unstable air across much of the center of the continent.

The other reason is that these aircraft are often STOL (short take-off and landing) with comparatively low wing loading to allow them to land and take-off from much shorter runways than a jet requires. The lower wing loading means they get bounced around more in the turbulence. Hopefully the coffee was good...:rolleyes:

"Propeller aircraft (http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Performance/Page7.html) can fly the same distance at a low or high altitude. It will fly faster at the higher altitude however."

I do not miss riding around in the small planes that appear to achieve optimal fuel efficiency at altitudes where the weather seems to happen worldwide. Had to grab my laptop out of the air more than once on those things.

The VP sales of my company three companies ago called them Buddy Holly planes. When confronted with a flight in one he'd rent a car and drive.

GRG55
07-07-08, 12:02 PM
"Propeller aircraft (http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Performance/Page7.html) can fly the same distance at a low or high altitude. It will fly faster at the higher altitude however."

I do not miss riding around in the small planes that appear to achieve optimal fuel efficiency at altitudes where the weather seems to happen worldwide. Had to grab my laptop out of the air more than once on those things.

The VP sales of my company three companies ago called them Buddy Holly planes. When confronted with a flight in one he'd rent a car and drive.

There is quite a difference between the privately chartered single-engine, piston-powered Beechcraft V-Tail Bonanza that crashed "the day the music died", and the turbine powered STOL commuter aircraft operated under your FAA's FAR Part 119 commercial air carrier regulations. The latter is what I think the author of this thread experienced.

The safety record of these turbo-props in commercial service in the USA and Canada is superb. Years ago while project managing a gas plant under construction in northern Canada I used to have to change planes at Edmonton City Centre airport. The city has grown up around the historic airport and there was no room to expand the runways. I had the option of flying in on a B737 jet or the competitors DeHavilland Dash 7 turboprop. I always checked the weather before departure and if it was any less than perfect I always chose the Dash 7. Coming across the threshold with the mass and momentum of a Boeing onto a runway with less than perfect braking coefficient wasn't something I would volunteer to do.

They may not be as comfortable as a jet, but under some circumstances they are, IMO, a hell of a lot safer. :)

Wild Style
07-09-08, 08:56 PM
"Propeller aircraft (http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Performance/Page7.html) can fly the same distance at a low or high altitude. It will fly faster at the higher altitude however."

I do not miss riding around in the small planes that appear to achieve optimal fuel efficiency at altitudes where the weather seems to happen worldwide. Had to grab my laptop out of the air more than once on those things.

The VP sales of my company three companies ago called them Buddy Holly planes. When confronted with a flight in one he'd rent a car and drive.I prayed for the first 10 minutes of this flight on the prop plane. I don't know that I have the stamina to take another one again. The landing was worse than the first ten minutes though.

phirang
07-10-08, 04:42 AM
My flights to dubai and through jeddah have all been packed, both ways.

thank god i shelled out for biz.

GRG55
07-16-08, 12:51 AM
My recent flights to Europe: under $500 for Zurich; under $600 for St. Petersburg, under $500 for London.

Admittedly these were winter fares, but still low by the standards of the past 7 years.

Flights were all full, but I'd bet average revenue was WAY down.

Flights to Asia, on the other hand, have been trending up for some time.

5 years ago I could regularly get $500 tix to Japan, now I'm dancing if I get something for $800.

My compatriots still in the semiconductor side are universally saying travel is restricted for the foreseeable future...not a good sign.

Just booked a round trip across the Atlantic to London, UK and return. The fuel surcharge alone is more than $500...:(

c1ue
07-16-08, 01:34 PM
This might be the time to start burning frequent flier miles.

Certainly it seems taxes and surcharges seem lower with mileage tickets.

GRG55
02-13-09, 11:12 AM
There is quite a difference between the privately chartered single-engine, piston-powered Beechcraft V-Tail Bonanza that crashed "the day the music died", and the turbine powered STOL commuter aircraft operated under your FAA's FAR Part 119 commercial air carrier regulations. The latter is what I think the author of this thread experienced.

The safety record of these turbo-props in commercial service in the USA and Canada is superb. Years ago while project managing a gas plant under construction in northern Canada I used to have to change planes at Edmonton City Centre airport. The city has grown up around the historic airport and there was no room to expand the runways. I had the option of flying in on a B737 jet or the competitors DeHavilland Dash 7 turboprop. I always checked the weather before departure and if it was any less than perfect I always chose the Dash 7. Coming across the threshold with the mass and momentum of a Boeing onto a runway with less than perfect braking coefficient wasn't something I would volunteer to do.

They may not be as comfortable as a jet, but under some circumstances they are, IMO, a hell of a lot safer. :)



A superb safety record goes down in flames [the Q400 is a derivative of the DeHavilland Dash 8 series]

A website that keeps extensive records on aviation incidents around the world (www.aviation-safety.net) since the 1950s had no recorded fatalities from crashes of Dash 8 regional-aircraft types.

The PIREPs of icing are interesting, but strictly conjecture at this point.
50 killed as plane slams into home near Buffalo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29173163/?GT1=43001)

Commuter flight goes down in snow and fog, sparking a fiery explosion

msnbc.com news services
updated 12:34 p.m. ET Feb. 13, 2009
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CLARENCE, New York - A commuter plane "basically dove" into a Buffalo-area house while coming in for a landing, sparking a fiery explosion that killed all 49 people on board and one person on the ground, an emergency official said Friday...

...The 74-seat Q400 Bombardier aircraft, operated by Colgan Air, was flying from Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey and preparing to land at Buffalo Niagara International Airport...