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GRG55
03-10-08, 04:08 AM
Here's something that is just begging for a good anti-spin treatment.

For months we have been subjected to analysts, and even some producer groups like OPEC, patiently explaining that commodity price rises are entirely due to those dreaded, and faceless, "speculators". The advent of commodity ETFs, desire to "flee bonars", announcements of new commodity index funds, and news stories of pension & endowment funds entering commodity investments lend credence to the speculation theory. Given the rather spectacular price moves in recent weeks, I will be the first to admit that current action appears to have "financial event" fingerprints all over it.

But then along comes an item or two that makes me wonder just how much speculation is really going on. Items like these (highlights mine):

Iron-Ore Prices to Rise 30% in 2009, Citigroup Says

By Mark Herlihy
March 3 (Bloomberg) -- Iron-ore prices, which have advanced to a record this year, will rise 30 percent next year because of ``continued robust demand growth,'' Citigroup Inc. said.

``Persisting tight market conditions through 2008 and 2009 will provide the driver for further price increases next year, and sustained high prices for the following two years,'' Citigroup analysts including Sydney-based Alan Heap (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Alan+Heap&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said in a report today.

Asia's three largest steelmakers agreed Feb. 18 to pay Brazil's Vale do Rio Doce, the world's largest iron-ore producer, at least 65 percent more than last year for the steel-making raw material. The deal means prices will rise for a sixth year as demand increases from emerging markets...
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a75c2kkHBO8Q


BHP, Rio May Get Double for Coking Coal Contracts

By Jesse Riseborough
Feb. 28 (Bloomberg) -- BHP Billiton Ltd. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BHP%3AAU) and Mitsubishi Corp. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=8058%3AJP), owners of the world's largest coking coal exporter, may get twice as much for contract shipments of the steelmaking raw material because of shrinking global supply.

Prices for hard-coking coal for the year starting April 1 may surge to a record $200 a metric ton from $98 this contract year, according to the median forecast of eight analysts surveyed by Bloomberg. Talks between producers and Japanese customers may start ``in earnest'' next month, the Tex report said yesterday...
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=azVf9DUhRawQ


Baoshan to Raise Steel Prices for the Second Quarter

By Helen Yuan
Feb. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Baoshan Iron & Steel Co. will boost second-quarter prices more than some analysts had expected as the publicly traded unit of China's biggest steelmaker passes on higher raw-material and fuel costs to customers. The stock rose.

The price of benchmark, hot-rolled products will rise by as much as 800 yuan ($112) a metric ton, or 20 percent, compared with the first quarter, according to a statement today from the Shanghai-based company. Cold-rolled product prices will also rise by 800 yuan, or 17 percent.

``The price gain beat our expectations,'' said Luo Wei (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Luo+Wei&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a Shanghai-based analyst with China International Capital Corp. ``Steelmakers' profit in the second quarter will gain as prices more than offset the rise in raw-material costs.''

Baoshan joins rivals including Japan's Nippon Steel Corp. the world's second-biggest steelmaker by output, in increasing prices to bolster profits (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=600019%3ACH). Baosteel Group Corp., Baoshan's parent, agreed on Feb. 22 to pay Brazil's Cia. Vale do Rio Doce 65 to 71 percent more for iron ore from April.
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=afiB6Rrk8YSI


Wheat Shreds Goldman, USDA Forecasts Belied by Gains

By Tony Dreibus and Jeff Wilson
Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- The biggest rally in the history of wheat trading defied even some of the best conventional wisdom, humbling forecasters Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and the U.S. government.
Wheat has more than doubled since May, reaching a record $11.53 a bushel on Feb. 11 and driving up costs for everything from Eggo waffles and Italian pasta to Pakistani flatbreads and Japanese pastry. This month the world's biggest securities firm scrapped projections for a price drop within 90 days, and the U.S., the biggest exporter (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=US46EXUS%3AIND), said it would ship 23 percent more than originally estimated before summer.

``The supply shortage has been much more acute than what we had expected,'' said Ruifang Zhang, a commodities analyst at Goldman in London. The firm, which was right about the trajectory of crude oil last year, raised its three-month price target to $13.50 from $9.20 on Feb. 8.
Wheat set a record 16 times since September, resonating around a world that relies on the grain more than any food crop except rice. Exporters Argentina (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=US46EXAR%3AIND) and Russia halted sales or raised taxes to protect dwindling reserves. Pakistan boosted imports as inflation in January rose 12 percent, the most in 33 months...

...Even farm animals, which eat 16 percent of the world's wheat, are driving consumption as alternatives such as corn feed get more expensive. The appeal of corn-based ethanol (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=CUSEETHA%3AIND) is increasing as the U.S. government sets mandates for alternative energy sources.

``There is a tremendous competition for food,'' said William Doyle (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=William+Doyle&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), chief executive officer of Potash Corp. of Saskatchewan Inc., the largest maker of crop nutrients. Corn may jump another 15 percent this year to $6 a bushel, he said....

...In Japan (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=US46IMJP%3AIND), Asia's biggest wheat importer, companies such as Yamazaki Baking Co., the No. 1 bread and pastry maker, are passing costs to consumers as the government charges more for the grain. The Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries said Feb. 15 prices will rise an average 30 percent in April, the biggest increase since 1973...

...The American Bakers Association, a trade group that represents about 85 percent of wholesale bakeries in the U.S., said increased global demand is raising ``serious food-security issues'' and urged the government to curb wheat exports.
Stockpile Reserves

``We alerted USDA a year ago that wheat was going to be in short supply, and now three of the five wheat categories are extremely short,'' the association said in a statement on its Web site. ``Other countries are stockpiling their strategic grain reserves. The United States should do the same until USDA can ensure adequate supply.''

A shortage of higher-protein varieties has been extra expensive for bakers such as Pechters Baking LLC in Harrison, New Jersey. On the Minneapolis Grain Exchange, which trades protein-rich spring wheat used for making bread, prices tripled in the past year and touched a record $16 a bushel on Feb. 15.

``Our customers just don't believe how much our costs have gone up,'' said Pechters Vice President Anthony Battaglia (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Anthony+Battaglia&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), who plans to raise a two-pound loaf to almost $3 from $2.47 by the end of March. ``This industry has never had to move this quickly before and it is not structured to change pricing daily, like fruits and veggies do.''
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aOkjUbOT_JdE


Rice Rises to Record, May Extend Gains as U.S. Planting Falls

By Tony C. Dreibus
Jan. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Rice, the world's most abundant food, rose to a record in Chicago and may keep rallying this year as U.S. production falls and global demand increases, said farmer and trader Dennis DeLaughter (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Dennis+DeLaughter&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1).
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aODJP.BiR11k


Financial Times: Rice prices surge to 20-year high

“Rice prices have surged to a 20-year high in the latest sign of global food inflation, creating policy headaches in Asia where more than 2.5 billion people depend on cheap and abundant supplies of the grain.

“Robert Zeigler, director at the International Rice Research Institute in Manila, said policymakers should be concerned. ‘If history is any indicator, we should be worried because rice shortages have in the past led to civil unrest,’ he said.

“Experts have attributed the surge in rice prices to bad weather that has hit supply; urbanization that has cut the acreage given over to the grain; and strong demand on the back of rapid income growth in China, India and other Asian countries.

“Vichai Sriprasert, honorary chairman of Riceland International, a leading Thai rice trading company, said he expected the price of rice to rise ‘much, much more’.
“Asia, where most of the world’s rice is consumed, has not known famines since the 1970s, and recent price rises for rice and other basic foodstuffs have sparked unrest.”
Source: Javier Blas and Raphael Minder, Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87de5e8c-e98c-11dc-8365-0000779fd2ac.html), March 4, 2008.

So here are the questions:

Is it reasonable to conclude that at least some commodity producers have tremendous pricing power? The price for steel and it's main raw material inputs, hard coal and iron ore, appear to be set in contract negotiations, not on a traded futures exchange subject to those dastardly speculators.
Likewise for grains? Governments such as Argentina and Russia which are restricting exports, and organizations like the American Bakers Association, which is advocating the USA do the same, would appear to be responding to factors that have little or nothing to do with speculation.
Are speculators really playing a material role in the current commodity markets?
Does it vary greatly by commodity? Could what OPEC says about oil be correct, while steel, coal, and iron ore are running up on a different dynamic?
Or is all this really only due to one factor - the indiscriminate expansion of global fiat money supply over time?
Inquiring minds wanna know... :confused:

Sapiens
03-10-08, 07:11 AM
Damn good questions GRG.

I will not elaborate, but this is my prediction: All commodity prices will collapse once the credit contraction gets in full swing (pain on Main street), except for the PMs. You will see PMs prices decrease once the real rate of return on productive assets can be determined (and that won't happen until you see mass unemployment).

-Sapiens

jk
03-10-08, 07:32 AM
here's a point and figue of dba [traded agric commodities]:rja [rogers agric index including a lot of non traded commodities] you can see other comparison charts at:
http://stockcharts.com/charts/gallery.html?dba%3Arja

in 5 months the ratio has gone from 2.8 up to 3.2, after hitting a max of about 3.45. so, yes, traded commodities are outperforming, but the underlying trend is real.
Point & Figure View

http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SharpChartv05.ServletDriver?chart=DBA:RJA,PLTCDANR BO%5BPA%5D%5BD%5D%5BF1%213%21%21%214%2120%5D&pnf=y (http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.pnf?c=DBA:RJA,PLTCDANRBO%5BPA%5D%5BD%5D%5BF1%21 3%21%21%214%2120%5D&pnf=y)

raja
03-10-08, 10:17 AM
So here are the questions:
Is it reasonable to conclude that at least some commodity producers have tremendous pricing power? The price for steel and it's main raw material inputs, hard coal and iron ore, appear to be set in contract negotiations, not on a traded futures exchange subject to those dastardly speculators.
Likewise for grains? Governments such as Argentina and Russia which are restricting exports, and organizations like the American Bakers Association, which is advocating the USA do the same, would appear to be responding to factors that have little or nothing to do with speculation.
Are speculators really playing a material role in the current commodity markets?
Does it vary greatly by commodity? Could what OPEC says about oil be correct, while steel, coal, and iron ore are running up on a different dynamic?
Or is all this really only due to one factor - the indiscriminate expansion of global fiat money supply over time?Inquiring minds wanna know... :confused:
It seems to me that the rise in commodity prices is due to multiple factors acting at once . . . .

Factors that affect all commodities --
1. Rising energy prices due to increased demand and expected future resource depletion
2. Inflation
3. Speculation

Then, each commodity has its own additional cost-increase factors --
1. Building boom in Asia raising demand for coal, iron and steel.
2. Rice price up due to bad weather and loss of farmland.
3. Wheat prices up due to switch-over to corn for ethanol.

Due to my inexperience in things economic, I usually ask questions at iTulip rather than make predictions, but I'll take a stab at it . . .

When the coming global economic meltdown really gets going:
1. Demand for energy will go down, as people lose jobs, turn down their thermostats, drive less, buy less stuff . . . and in poorer countries eat less.
2. Inflation will reverse as printing money is found to no longer stimulate the economy, so why bother.
3. Speculation will drop as wealth evaporates in write-downs, falling asset values, bankruptcies, etc.
4. The boom in Asia collapses.

Thus ends the commodities bull.

For now, I expect inflation to continue, so it's tempting to jump into commodities. But I don't think that party is going to last long.
Instead, I'm investing in PM and short-term Treasuries, doing some stock-short trading . . . waiting for the wheel to turn and Treasury interest rates to start climbing.

FRED
03-10-08, 02:06 PM
It seems to me that the rise in commodity prices is due to multiple factors acting at once . . . .

Factors that affect all commodities --
1. Rising energy prices due to increased demand and expected future resource depletion
2. Inflation
3. Speculation

Then, each commodity has its own additional cost-increase factors --
1. Building boom in Asia raising demand for coal, iron and steel.
2. Rice price up due to bad weather and loss of farmland.
3. Wheat prices up due to switch-over to corn for ethanol.

Due to my inexperience in things economic, I usually ask questions at iTulip rather than make predictions, but I'll take a stab at it . . .

When the coming global economic meltdown really gets going:
1. Demand for energy will go down, as people lose jobs, turn down their thermostats, drive less, buy less stuff . . . and in poorer countries eat less.
2. Inflation will reverse as printing money is found to no longer stimulate the economy, so why bother.
3. Speculation will drop as wealth evaporates in write-downs, falling asset values, bankruptcies, etc.
4. The boom in Asia collapses.

Thus ends the commodities bull.

For now, I expect inflation to continue, so it's tempting to jump into commodities. But I don't think that party is going to last long.
Instead, I'm investing in PM and short-term Treasuries, doing some stock-short trading . . . waiting for the wheel to turn and Treasury interest rates to start climbing.

EJ has done a brief interview with Jim Rogers, along one with Hudson, and is scheduling one with Steve Keen:

Hudson: US recession progresses, dollar declines, nominal prices continue to rise.
Rogers: US recession progresses, Asian and oil exporting nations dependent on US demand follow, dollar declines, producers cut supply ahead of falling demand, nominal prices continue to rise
Keen: "Even though we’re having inflation forced now by Global Warming and Peak Oil, a serious downturn now could lead to a collapse in commodity prices and therefore a switch from them causing inflation to turn to deflation."

To be published finally tomorrow.

grapejelly
03-10-08, 02:10 PM
is this 1975 all over again?

Will there be a sharp recession/contraction, including a huge fall in PM prices, followed by renewed pickup in prices culminating in a parabolic secular blowoff?

It feels we are way, way early for the final secular blowoff. I could see a mini blowoff, followed by a mini crash...

...followed by another run up that makes the earlier one (this one) seem tame.

GRG55
03-14-08, 02:29 AM
Damn good questions GRG.

I will not elaborate, but this is my prediction: All commodity prices will collapse once the credit contraction gets in full swing (pain on Main street), except for the PMs. You will see PMs prices decrease once the real rate of return on productive assets can be determined (and that won't happen until you see mass unemployment).

-Sapiens


Excerpt from the Hard Rock Analyst. It is very clear that some sectors of the economy have greater pricing power than Wall St analysts wish to acknowledge. Note the comment about US-centric analysis...

Mar 12, 2008
David Coffin & Eric Coffin
Editors HRA (http://www.hardrockanalyst.com/) Journal
www.hraadvisory.com (http://www.hraadvisory.com/)

"...Every conference we have been at in the past couple of months has been dominated by speakers calling for a price collapse in most metals, and especially base metals. Metals don't seem to be reading the script. Precious metals continue to see new highs and all base metals have had significant upward moves in the past month. What gives?

We see a couple of reasons for the price moves. The first is simply that that US centric analysis is wrong. Warehouse inventories for most metals simply are not building at the speed the bears had expected.

Commodities that mainly trade through contract sales like iron ore and coal have had stronger prices than most of their open market brethren. The nature of the markets for these materials makes them next to impossible to "speculate" on directly. We therefore find bubble arguments for more liquid metal markets very hard to believe.

In the past month market traded metals have all seen good gains. The star of the show has been copper, the metal reputed to have a PhD in economics. Copper recently traded at an all time closing high, having just exceeded the "triple top" of 2007. Apparently copper earned its PhD in Shanghai or Mumbai.

Do current metal prices imply a bubble? We don't think so, though we won't be surprised if there is a commodity bubble before the super cycle ends. We do not however see it now. One thing prices do imply is the renewed interest of funds in the sector.

Investment groups of all types find themselves in a tough spot and those with the longest time horizons ­ insurance and pension funds - face the biggest challenges. Bonds have had a great few years, but no one expects increases in yields in the foreseeable future. Current yields just are not high enough. To add insult to injury, inflation is accelerating again.

One of the best ways to counter a stagflation environment is commodity exposure. It worked in the 1970's, and it looks like ready to do so again now. Last week brought news that CALPERS, the California teachers pension funds and the largest of its kind in the US, will allocate up to 3% of its holdings to commodities.

We expect to see many more announcements like CALPERS. Fund money in commodities of all types is increasing again. This will help support the base pricing of many commodity prices, and specifically those in metals we have recently seen. The argument could be made that this is just hot money. Some of it is, but we don't see investment from funds like CALPERS as the equivalent of hedge fund money. These are long term investors that are looking for portfolio insurance in a time of uncertainty and rising inflation.

What goes for base metals and soft commodities goes double for precious metals. The Dollar is plumbing new depths and could still go lower. It isn't wild eyed gold bugs who see metals and metal stocks as a refuge; it's anyone who can add. Its no longer opinion, it's a statistic. Going forward, more people are bound to notice this winning sector. We haven't seen the arrival of the real masses yet, but they are coming..."

GRG55
03-22-08, 07:55 AM
This is not your father's recession all right...

US in recession
Europe and Japan slowing fast
House prices falling practically everywhere (except Vancouver)
Full blown credit crisis underway
Brokers and banks being rescued right and left
Commodities clobbered
Precious metals whackedAnd then we have this...

March 20 (Bloomberg) -- Cia. Vale do Rio Doce (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=VALE5%3ABS): The world's largest iron- ore producer said it will raise the price of blast-furnace pellets sold to Italian steelmaker Ilva Spa by 87 percent this year. Ilva, Italy's biggest steelmaker, has agreed to pay $2.20 a metric ton, Rio de Janeiro-based Vale said yesterday in a regulatory filing. On Feb. 20, the companies announced an agreement in which Vale would raise the price of raw iron ore sold to Ilva this year by as much as 66 percent.And this...

Rio May Seek Ventures With China on Materials DemandBy Xiao YuMarch 22 (Bloomberg) -- ...Rio and rival BHP Billiton Ltd. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BHP%3AAU) are demanding an iron ore price gain for annual contracts starting April 1 that would exceed a 71 percent increase won by Cia. Vale do Rio Doce. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=VALE5%3ABZ)The company was prepared to wait for Chinese steelmakers to agree to the higher increase, Sam Walsh (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Sam+Walsh&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), chief executive officer of Rio Tinto Iron Ore, said in Beijing today. Rio and BHP, which account for half of iron ore sales in Asia, are increasing cash market sales to benefit from higher prices and want to move away from the benchmark contract system. Rio sold iron ore on the spot market for $190 a metric ton in December, more than twice contract prices. The London-based company plans to triple iron ore sales in the cash market to 15 million tons a year, up from 4.5 million tons in 2007...Now that's pricing power.

Somebody should tell them, and their customers, the world is going to hell before our eyes, and "deflation" [horrors :eek:] stalks the land... :rolleyes:

c1ue
03-22-08, 09:42 AM
This is interesting, but I wonder how much is due to the rise of the euro and fall of the dollar.

It is interesting that the prices are quoted in US$ but the country of sale is Brazil and the country of purchase is EU.

Throw in a 2 or 3 year contract up for renewal, and I can totally see the percentage jumps.

GRG55
03-22-08, 10:09 AM
This is interesting, but I wonder how much is due to the rise of the euro and fall of the dollar.

It is interesting that the prices are quoted in US$ but the country of sale is Brazil and the country of purchase is EU.

Throw in a 2 or 3 year contract up for renewal, and I can totally see the percentage jumps.

Iron ore contracts are renewed annually at this time of year.

The other link was related to China.

Australia iron ore prices to China (FOB) have the following recent pattern:
2005.........+71.5%
2006.........+19.0%
2007......... +9.5%
The current increases under negotiation are for 2008 contract year. As the article mentions Brazil's CVRD (Vale) has completed its negotiations with the Chinese and settled at +71%

Even the lowly bonar hasn't suffered quite that much...

bill
03-28-08, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by GRG55
Rice Rises to Record, May Extend Gains as U.S. Planting Falls

By Tony C. Dreibus
Jan. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Rice, the world's most abundant food, rose to a record in Chicago and may keep rallying this year as U.S. production falls and global demand increases, said farmer and trader Dennis DeLaughter (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Dennis+DeLaughter&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1).
Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aODJP.BiR11k (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aODJP.BiR11k)


Financial Times: Rice prices surge to 20-year high

“Rice prices have surged to a 20-year high in the latest sign of global food inflation, creating policy headaches in Asia where more than 2.5 billion people depend on cheap and abundant supplies of the grain.

“Robert Zeigler, director at the International Rice Research Institute in Manila, said policymakers should be concerned. ‘If history is any indicator, we should be worried because rice shortages have in the past led to civil unrest,’ he said.

“Experts have attributed the surge in rice prices to bad weather that has hit supply; urbanization that has cut the acreage given over to the grain; and strong demand on the back of rapid income growth in China, India and other Asian countries.

“Vichai Sriprasert, honorary chairman of Riceland International, a leading Thai rice trading company, said he expected the price of rice to rise ‘much, much more’.
“Asia, where most of the world’s rice is consumed, has not known famines since the 1970s, and recent price rises for rice and other basic foodstuffs have sparked unrest.”
Source: Javier Blas and Raphael Minder, Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87de5e8c-e98c-11dc-8365-0000779fd2ac.html), March 4, 2008.



Rice speculation increase pricing.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=126782

Friday March 28, 2008
Exporters unable to buy rice because of widespread hoarding and speculation have begun defaulting on orders from around the world worth up to $5 billion.
The president of the Thai Rice Exporters Association, Chookiat Ophaswongse said on Friday, "There will be a lot of defaults coming up, because we cannot find any rice in the market.
.
.
.
Chookiat criticised Thai Commerce Minister Mingkwan Sangsuwan for encouraging Thai farmers to hoard their rice in order to fetch better prices for it. Not only farmers, but millers and local businessmen have started hording and speculating on Thai rice, creating an artificial shortage for exports.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/28Mar2008_news01.php
Thailand braces for rice crisis

GRG55
03-29-08, 04:06 AM
Rice speculation increase pricing.


Thailand braces for rice crisis

This is (in part) a consequence of EU biofuels directives. The search is on for vegetable protein alternatives to replace the palm oil being used for fuel.

Does anyone else find the rush to biofuels ironic?

We spent most of the 20th century creating a food supply dependent on oil. A large amount of our fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides & planting/harvest/distribution fuels all trace back to petroleum.

Seems we are going to spend the 21st century doing the opposite...building an oil substitute fuel supply that is dependent on food.

GRG55
06-26-08, 09:19 AM
EJ has done a brief interview with Jim Rogers, along one with Hudson, and is scheduling one with Steve Keen:

Hudson: US recession progresses, dollar declines, nominal prices continue to rise.
Rogers: US recession progresses, Asian and oil exporting nations dependent on US demand follow, dollar declines, producers cut supply ahead of falling demand, nominal prices continue to rise
Keen: "Even though we’re having inflation forced now by Global Warming and Peak Oil, a serious downturn now could lead to a collapse in commodity prices and therefore a switch from them causing inflation to turn to deflation."

To be published finally tomorrow.

Recession? What recession?
Commodity collapse? What commodity collapse??

Will somebody please tell these folks that the beleaguered Dr. Bernanke is not amused :( with this sort of news...

China to Press BHP to Accept Rio Iron Ore Price, Official Says

By Helen Yuan
June 25 (Bloomberg) -- Chinese steelmakers, the world's largest consumers of iron ore, will resist any attempt by BHP Billiton Ltd (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BHP%3AAU). to win a larger price than agreed to with Rio Tinto Group (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=RIO%3AAU), an official familiar with the talks said...

...Baosteel Group Corp. , China's largest steelmaker, on June 23 agreed to pay Rio Tinto as much as 97 percent more for annual contract iron ore as demand outpaced global supply. BHP yesterday said the settlement means it's still cheaper for Asian steelmakers to buy Australian ore than Brazilian ore...

...London-based Rio's accord with Baosteel already exceeds the 71 percent gain steelmakers gave Brazil's Cia. Vale do Rio Doce, the world's largest supplier of iron ore...

...BHP will seek ``greater transparency'' in iron ore pricing and plans to sign more contracts linked to spot prices or a pricing index, Chief Executive Officer Marius Kloppers (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Marius+Kloppers&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said yesterday...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aGFTMxr5b2p8

Lukester
06-26-08, 11:39 AM
GRG55 -

Just posted about this in news last night (although as usual a little more contentiously than you). This looks like just another humdrum news headline a' la late 2000's, but in fact it's a huge marker for the next 3, 4, 5 years. On the one hand people can read this as just another inflation marker, but that's a superficial understanding of the event. This is one of the largest annual commodities contracts out there, between largest nations and largest commodities producers - and they just agreed to a near doubling in a single year?

Along with the massive inflationary implications is another resounding confirmation - PRICING POWER means that the underlying demand end of this commodity market is bursting with strength. Then you start reading around and there are all sorts of people, from iTulip contributors, to the Fabers, Hudson's et. al. of this world, all routinely referencing a global deflation that's "arrived", that's "about to arrive", that's "almost assured", etc.

Very smart people here are presenting "numbers which just don't add up" showing why clearly nations like China will have their oxygen cut off within twelve months and plunge global base metals demand, etc. But why isn't news like this being fully absorbed into these prognostications? How can we foresee let alone forecast a massive global industrial deceleration right directly on the heels of news like the above?

It's not plausible to suggest that the bursting consumption momentum embodied in this new steel contract will turn on a dime and contract - it's even a stretch to see any hint of it's future slowing in this new data. Which then leads to the question - possibly a lot of us proponents of continued boom or imminent bust appear to derive our convictions on what's approaching largely from the preferences derived from a personal mind-set.

The steel contract data here are brusquely intruding on a widespread, (entirely rational) expectation that global growth is vastly overheated, and suggesting that these many smart people have recently gotten these predictions all wrong, and may well do so yet again.

GRG55
06-26-08, 11:53 AM
GRG55 -

Just posted about this in news last night (although as usual a little more contentiously than you). This looks like just another humdrum news headline a' la late 2000's, but in fact it's a huge marker for the next 3, 4, 5 years. On the one hand people can read this as just another inflation marker, but that's a superficial understanding of the event. This is one of the largest annual commodities contracts out there, between largest nations and largest commodities producers - and they just agreed to a near doubling in a single year?

Along with the massive inflationary implications is another resounding confirmation - PRICING POWER means that the underlying demand end of this commodity market is bursting with strength. Then you start reading around and there are all sorts of people, from iTulip contributors, to the Fabers, Hudson's et. al. of this world, all routinely referencing a global deflation that's "arrived", that's "about to arrive", that's "almost assured", etc.

Very smart people here are presenting "numbers which just don't add up" showing why clearly nations like China will have their oxygen cut off within twelve months and plunge global base metals demand, etc. But why isn't news like this being fully absorbed into these prognostications? How can we foresee let alone forecast a massive global industrial deceleration right directly on the heels of news like the above?

It's not plausible to suggest that the bursting consumption momentum embodied in this new steel contract will turn on a dime and contract - it's even a stretch to see any hint of it's future slowing in this new data. Which then leads to the question - possibly a lot of us proponents of continued boom or imminent bust appear to derive our convictions on what's approaching largely from the preferences derived from a personal mind-set.

The steel contract data here are brusquely intruding on a widespread, (entirely rational) expectation that global growth is vastly overheated, and suggesting that these many smart people have recently gotten these predictions all wrong, and may well do so yet again.

Sorry about my redundant posting Lukester.

This is the line that got my attention:
...BHP will seek ``greater transparency'' in iron ore pricing and plans to sign more contracts linked to spot prices or a pricing index, Chief Executive Officer Marius Kloppers (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Marius+Kloppers&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said yesterday...
It's not often that raw materials producers will voluntarily increase their exposure to the spot market. The combination of steel producer agreement to such compounded y-o-y price increases for ore, and BHP's plans suggests BOTH sides of this see the same thing...for a few more years at least.

As for the prognosticators, we must keep in mind time frames. Anything, including severe commodity price setbacks, can occur in the short term. Just look at the charts for crude oil during 2006. Once it busted all it's technical levels on the way down, how many were prepared to go long ahead of a doubling in 2007?