PDA

View Full Version : Ask iTulip: The Bernanke Goat Rodeo and the Next Boom


FRED
02-26-08, 03:43 PM
http://www.itulip.com/images/bensgoatrodeo.jpgAsk iTulip: The Bernanke Goat Rodeo and Doubting the Next Boom

Never have so many been promised so much by leaders with so little intention to pay up.

by Eric Janszen

Interest created by the “Next Bubble” Harper’s article that's now available online (http://harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908) has put me way behind on mail from subscribers. Unfortunately, I can’t answer all the great questions. I’ll focus on two that are representative.

The first question comes from a subscriber who asks:

Q: “What would EJ do it he were Ben Bernanke?”

A: The easy answer is: I wouldn’t be Ben Bernanke. I said when he started: “With a storm of credit collapse hitting US shores, Ben Bernanke has stepped into the biggest goat job in central banking history.” (see Ka-Poom is a Rhyme not a Repeat of History (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2905#post2905)). But that’s too easy. Or right after I got the job I could go to Congress and say, “This central banking institution is so broken we’re better off getting rid of it and coming up with something else.” While that approach certainly lets me off the hook, it's not realistic. Where would Congress get the money to fulfill every election promise made if not the Fed's digital printing press? Besides, if the Fed were abolished tomorrow a private institution will step in to fill the role. Which one? I’d put my money on Goldman Sachs. That might be an improvement – at least GS had the good sense to avoid the worst of the housing bubble whereas the Fed made it happen. For all I know if GS were acting as the central bank in 2001 it might have tried to protect itself from losses later and seen to it that lending laws were not broken and crazy securitized debt products not sold.

If I was unable to avoid the Fed Chairman’s job or get out of it by convincing Congress to abolish the Fed, what can I do when faced as Bernanke is with the choice between a deflation spiral and an inflation spiral as the debt deflation progresses? Anything I do to cure one just makes the other worse.

The first thing I’d get my head around is the fact that no matter what I do if I do the right thing I’m going to be unpopular. Never have so many been promised so much by leaders with so little intention to pay up. The Fed has promised both “no recessions” and “price stability.” As it turns out, policies employed to fulfill this misguided political mandate are resulting in both recession and inflation.

I’d hold rates where they are and allow the recession to take its course. I’d take only the best credits at the discount window. Insolvent banks will fail and solvent banks will pick up the good assets. I’d write off the FIRE Economy. The real estate industry will revert to being the ancillary industry it is in other countries. The insurance and finance industries will revert to their pre-1980s role of supporting industrial development versus replacing it. I’d focus all of our monetary policy firepower on those sectors of the economy that can allow the US to develop into sustainable economic growth at a 1:1 ratio of debt to GDP growth versus a multiple; industries like biotech, health care, agriculture, energy, technology, and public infrastructure will lead the way.

Now you’re probably wondering, what about all of the unemployed? I expect unemployment to rise well into the double digits. The fact is they are going to be a lot of unemployed sooner or later anyway. For every job created since 2001 combined public and private sector debt has increased by $1.8 million. Did anyone seriously think that could go on forever without the dollar falling and inflation rising? The ill-conceived finance-based economy is destined to wind down in any case.

This is no great mystery. We all know what needs to happen. The US economy needs to restructure to look more like the Germany’s, with a focus on modern industry, production, and saving and less on finance and debt. It is from these new industries that the new jobs will come.

Entrenched interests in the finance, insurance, and real estate industries will be trying mightily to peg me and I won’t get to finish my run but maybe my successor will. It’s a goat rodeo either way and I’d rather be a head hunter* than a dragger or a trotter.**

* Head Hunter (BR) (http://rodeoroyalty.com/Articles/Miscellaneous/rodeo_lingo.htm) - A bull that is constantly looking for someone to charge.
** Dragger or Trotter (TR) (http://rodeoroyalty.com/Articles/Miscellaneous/rodeo_lingo.htm) - A steer that hangs his head and doesn't run after being roped, many times trotting or stopping.

http://www.itulip.com/images/globaleconomy.gifWhence Funding the Next Boom?

The second question is a actually a series of questions asked by a subscriber who is a CPA. He is also a practicing lawyer, but don’t hold that against him. Some of our best friends are lawyers. He questions the idea of a coming boom in transportation, energy, and communications infrastructure.

Q: Isn't America's credibility in jeopardy? Given the losses foreign investors have sustained and will sustain in the ongoing mortgage meltdown won't foreign investors be chary of anything that smacks of another American bubble? As in "once burned, twice shy"?

A: CDOs and securitized debt products that funded the housing bubble where "common" shares sold to private institutional investors and governments but with no rights or protections attached so that when the housing bubble collapsed, they were left holding “shares” that lost most of their value. A similar fate befell the same investors after the technology bubble of the 1990s, except that the funding mechanism that time was venture capital (See How Venture Capital is Ruining the Internet, July 2000 (http://www.bankrate.com/cnn/news/investing/20000718d.asp)). The question this is not once burned, twice shy but twice burned, more than twice shy?

Keep in mind, however, that most foreign investment in US in the past several years in terms of capital flows has not been by private individuals and institutions into US corporate stocks and bonds but by sovereign states in US treasury and agency debt via central banks. With the recent development of Sovereign Wealth Funds (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-foreignSWF08.html) (SWF)since 2006 that trend is likely to expand to include other assets classes, including stocks and corporate bonds that have become increasingly difficult to market to “more than twice shy” overseas institutional and individual investors. So how will these mega-projects be funded?

Over the next five years many Public Private Partnerships (P3) will be formed to develop major, capital-intensive for-profit transportation, energy, and communications infrastructure (TECI) projects in the US to bring the US out of an economic depression. Think of it as a New, New Deal™ versus the 1930s old New Deal. The stocks and bonds issued to finance these firms will be guaranteed by the US government much as Fannie Mae mortgage bonds carry an implicit government guarantee, or perhaps more explicitly in the P3 corporate charter. Think of these as "Class A Preferred" shares in these for-profit projects versus the securitized debt, dot com stocks, and other garbage dumped on 30 year old managers of foreign pension funds. You are correct: that won’t work again.

Q: Given the losses foreigners (and Americans) the Fed's rate-dropping, will there be the wherewithal to fund another bubble? For example, if the dollar continues to drop, and with low interest rates, surely buying dollar-dominated assets is a losing proposition.

A: After the last major debt deflation in the US in the 1930s, FDR went to primary wealth holders in the US with an offer better than their counterparts were getting in Europe at the time. In the current instance, the US is a debtor not a creditor as it was in the 1930s, and so the onus is on US creditors to help the US not default on its debt. They are motivated to assist the US in managing its debt deflation and rolling recessions without further externalizing these, as the US has already by allowing the dollar to depreciate over 35%. The US will offer its creditors a workout deal composed of: one, inflating away of debt; two, the sale of capital and assets via sovereign wealth funds, treasury purchases via appropriations, and central bank funds; and three participation in the re-industrialization of the US via investment in for-profit P3s and start-ups developing next generation national transportation, energy, and communications projects and technologies. In this way, China, Japan, and oil producers can invest their dollar denominated reserve assets, such as treasury bonds, that they cannot spend at home. This will also have the effect of reducing dollar depreciation, thus reducing losses to inflation.

The alternative is possibly another period of de-globalization and global economic depression, and possibly worse as in the 1931 to 1945 period, the worst outcome for debtor nations and creditors alike.

Q: If money keeps getting pumped into the US economy both from the fiscal side (the "stimulus" package) and the monetary side, don't we run the risk of hyperinflation?

A: The risk is that things don't get bad enough fast enough. If politicians can muddle through to the November 2008 presidential elections with tax rebates and Fed liquidity injections without rapidly rising unemployment and major market dislocations then the new administration will likely be a new version of the old, irrespective of party. After elections the new administration, whose campaign will have been funded by current interests, will make Japan 1990 on style valiant attempts to perpetuate current arrangements and interests – that is, the FIRE Economy – and indeed a further 50% or more depreciation of dollar may occur. Dollar depreciation, undertaken as a key reflation policy tool in 2004, is already starting to not work; the short term boost to exports and profits has, a few production cycles later, turned into an inflation spiral, as input costs and wages rise. Consumers who saw wages rise 6.1% year over year in Nov. 2007 still think they're getting richer, but oil, food, and gold prices say otherwise; eventually they will figure out how much purchasing power they are losing and businesses will discover that the purchasing power of revenue and profits is also declining. That happens when demand declines hit oil prices, and petrodollar recycling volume falls and US interest rates rise.

If the economy and markets deteriorate at a more natural rate without government bailouts then a new administration will have greater license to make policy changes that are politically inexpedient except in crisis. So, paradoxically, if one is hoping for a radical shift of the US economy from its current FIRE orientation toward re-industrialization, a rapid descent into a serious economic and market crisis is preferable.

Q: And aren't there some other bubbles about to burst, such as bond insurance, commercial paper, consumer debt, and student loans?

A: And on and on, including fallout from the LBO bubble that ended August 2007, and don’t forget the coming crash in commercial real estate. Friends in the banking industry tell us that a Japan style debt deflation has begun for the US, the UK and Australia. The key difference is that the US is a debtor not a creditor, so as you say monetary injections to prevent the banking system from falling into a liquidity trap will feed into the inflationary spiral and that can get out of hand quickly. We’ve warned of this for years but now it’s front page Wall Street Journal news. For this and the reasons cited above, a boom in Transportation, Energy, and Communications Infrastructure (TECI) by late 2009 is critical.

iTulip Select (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1032): The Investment Thesis for the Next Cycle™
__________________________________________________
For the safest, lowest cost way to buy and trade gold, see The Bullionvault (http://www.bullionvault.com/from/itulip)

To receive the iTulip Newsletter or iTulip Alerts, Join our FREE Email Mailing List (http://ui.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?m=1101238839116&p=oi)

Copyright © iTulip, Inc. 1998 - 2007 All Rights Reserved

All information provided "as is" for informational purposes only, not intended for trading purposes or advice. Nothing appearing on this website should be considered a recommendation to buy or to sell any security or related financial instrument. iTulip, Inc. is not liable for any informational errors, incompleteness, or delays, or for any actions taken in reliance on information contained herein. Full Disclaimer (http://www.itulip.com/GeneralDisclaimer.htm)

Chief Tomahawk
02-26-08, 08:26 PM
Well, I know gold is favored.... but how about the junior minors?

Meanwhile, platinum company SWC is partying hard while yesterday's girlfriend, uranium company USU, has hit the skids. Any opinions o fellow portfolio managers???

donalds
02-26-08, 09:13 PM
Eric,

You summarize four means to re-start the US following it's economic deterioration, including foreign government participation, in cooperation with the US (both public and private), to prevent the US from becoming bankrupt and defaulting on its debt to those participating foreign governments. Assuming I understand the case you've made, I've listed your main points followed by considerations you may wish to explore for purposes of supporting and developing your case (perhaps in a future commentary, and perhaps very briefly here):

1. inflating away debt
consider explaining in some detail how will this debt be inflated away.

2. foreign ownership of US assets and capital
consider describing the conditions and extent to which US citizens and it's political leadership would accept foreign ownership of US assets and capital. Consider describing political and social deliberation processes and policy formation that would unfold resulting in success. Regarding your statement: "The risk is that things don't get bad enough fast enough." Consider and flesh out the challenges that would be presented to the US to proceed with domestic processes of public/political deliberation that lead to the outcome as you describe - in the face of presumably growing social conflict and antagonistic competing interests that one would expect to develop as an outcome of significant US economic deterioration.

3. Treasury purchases by US taxpayers
consider developing a set of criteria for determining when Treasury purchases by US taxpayers will take precedent over other competing uses of US citizen's (taxpayers) money. What criteria would apply to determine that the use of taxpayer's funds as you propose will exceed in importance the use of those funds for other purposes, such as health care, defense, 'homeland security', which together constitute the bulk of the US budget. Also, consider how these criteria address challenges resulting from a very likely and significantly expanding US deficit.

4. Foreign government, etc., investment in US P-3's.
consider describing the process of cooperation between public (US government and foreign government) and private (capital), in pursuit of P-3 goals and objectives, including providing insights especially as it regards the incentives that drive capital flows as needed to provide adequate investments and profits. Consider whether the products that derive from US re-industrialization will compliment other wants and needs orientated to non-consumption. In other words, consider whether the need for improved and upgraded transportation and utility transmissions, alternative forms of energy production, etc., will supplement existing levels of consumption or will they be designed to accommodate reduced consumption, as a compliment to lifestyles geared more to aesthetic and non-commercial pursuits. If the later, then consider whether profit incentives will then be adequate for development of P-3s since less consumption of things means less commercial exchange, and thus less profits.

Lastly, consider other factors, such as whether the existing labor force in the US is up to the task, including an adequate (both quantitatively and qualitatively) mix of skills, and if not whether the US labor force would need to be supplemented by immigrant labor, whether US workers will require extensive training, etc. Consider the potential for conflicting national interests that would need to be overcome to generate the international cooperation as you suggest. This may be especially important in that governments with SWFs proceed from national self interest which may be in conflict with that of the US, especially for those governments whose mercantilist policies make resource competition a more overriding factor exceeding what interest they may have in supporting US re-industrialization. Provide an argument as to why it would be in their national interest to pursue US re-industrialization. In sum, consider the global complexities that would present challenges and opportunities.

metalman
02-27-08, 09:05 AM
i'll take a crack at the first one...

Eric,

You summarize four means to re-start the US following it's economic deterioration, including foreign government participation, in cooperation with the US (both public and private), to prevent the US from becoming bankrupt and defaulting on its debt to those participating foreign governments. Assuming I understand the case you've made, I've listed your main points followed by considerations you may wish to explore for purposes of supporting and developing your case (perhaps in a future commentary, and perhaps very briefly here):

1. inflating away debt
consider explaining in some detail how will this debt be inflated away.

this question has troubled me since the first time i read kapoom theory. without wage inflation how does inflation help debtors? where is the wage inflation going to come from in a recession?

scanning a peak oil doomerbat site life after the oil crash (http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,12792.0.html) i found this in a thread titled "getting out of debt". this post was written i guess by a young dude with piles of debt.

"Eh I got some minor debt from a long ago reposssesed car. Being on the bottom of the income chain at the time a payment plan was set up. I could pay it off but its more fun to write nasty notes to the shitbag zombie debt collector. Like guess what ? you could settled this debt in full for 40 cents on the dollar like I offered and bought yourself 1200 gallons of gas. Today if I settled in full you could buy yourself 900 gallons . Next year it will be 450 and the year after that 225 if you can find any. Inflation is my friend and your the one who is squealing now bitch. Offer is still open 40 cents on the dollar better take it while its still worth something. He hates me and can't do shit about it as long as its postmarked on time"

here you see the thinking of at least some debtors in this inflation.... the creditor is on the losing side because the purchasing power of the money owed is going down. so even if j6p's debtor's income is not going up the debtor still has leverage with the creditor. this is just as true for foreign creditors like china. it wants to spend its tbonds and other us debt before the bonds won't buy much.

donalds
02-27-08, 10:16 AM
Thanks metalman.

So, in an inflationary setting, though prices are going up for just about all things needed and wanted, the debtor, while paying more for these things, can kick back in the comfort of knowing that his/her debt is static, that is, it ain't going up. Or perhaps he'd rather think of it differently, saying to himself, as does the guy in your example, that he can save money by paying off his debt ever so slowly, which is then money he can use to pay for the things that are going up in price.

So this is debt deflation. From this, he would be wise to rush out and increase his debt so that he is saving more so he can afford to buy things inflating.

metalman
02-27-08, 12:31 PM
Thanks metalman.

So, in an inflationary setting, though prices are going up for just about all things needed and wanted, the debtor, while paying more for these things, can kick back in the comfort of knowing that his/her debt is static, that is, it ain't going up. Or perhaps he'd rather think of it differently, saying to himself, as does the guy in your example, that he can save money by paying off his debt ever so slowly, which is then money he can use to pay for the things that are going up in price.

So this is debt deflation. From this, he would be wise to rush out and increase his debt so that he is saving more so he can afford to buy things inflating.

we're talking about the monthly payment consumer here, right? he thinks in terms of how much a thing costs this month and how much he owes this month vs how much he's making this month. it's all about cash flow. what's variable and what's fixed? he buys less gasoline, that's variable. he can drag out his debt payments, that's variable. his income is fixed. so as you say he pays back the creditor slower as inflation takes a bigger chunk of income. new debt is less affordable so he doesn't take on more debt, unless interest payments are falling. remember he used to be able to roll that credit card debt into a cheap home equity loan or get cash via a cheapo refi. i doubt this guy is going to take on more debt except if it raises cash. plus his credit is shrinking as the banks and credit card co. tighten lending standards.

j6p is screwed. so are the banks and credit card co. so is the us economy. big surprise... debt deflation.

Jim Nickerson
02-27-08, 12:43 PM
we're talking about the monthly payment consumer here, right? he thinks in terms of how much a thing costs this month and how much he owes this month vs how much he's making this month. it's all about cash flow. what's variable and what's fixed? he buys less gasoline, that's variable. he can drag out his debt payments, that's variable. his income is fixed. so as you say he pays back the creditor slower as inflation takes a bigger chunk of income. new debt is less affordable so he doesn't take on more debt, unless interest payments are falling. remember he used to be able to roll that credit card debt into a cheap home equity loan or get cash via a cheapo refi. i doubt this guy is going to take on more debt except if it raises cash. plus his credit is shrinking as the banks and credit card co. tighten lending standards.

j6p is screwed. so are the banks and credit card co. so is the us economy. big surprise... debt deflation.


metalman, I appreciate your perspective on these things, it really adds a lot to the discussion and to my understanding.

EDIT: could it be that you got back on your meds?

EDIT2: You know, metalman, thinking about this a bit more, it is your explanation that I think leads me to finally understanding "debt deflation." That term has been rather hot around here, and only now am I grasping its meaning and significance, assuming of course what you have written is correct and that I am actually grasping its meaning. You hit the nail on the head when you said that I was dense. I am admittedly about a lot of stuff. I don't know how I ever made it as far in life as I have, but for sure, I didn't cheat, except on US history in the 11th grade.

jk
02-27-08, 01:35 PM
i, too, have been concerned that "inflating away" is a solution for [fixed] debt only if the inflation feeds into incomes. i had an exchange with e.j. on this, to which he posted an academic study showing that inflation seemed to drive wages more than vice versa. the paper was out of the federal reserve bank of cleveland, titled "does wage inflation cause price inflation?" last line of the abstract: " On the contrary, the authors find more evidence that higher prices lead to wage growth."

donalds
02-27-08, 01:44 PM
did you hear about the new debt credit market, which operates like the carbon credit market? here's how it works.

lets say i've got lots and lots of debt. my neighbor next door hardly has any. as debt deflation is running rampant, my neighbor next door is growing increasingly envious of my debt. So, i sell him some of my debt, charging him just a little more than the debt is worth, then using that profit to pay off just a little of my debt so that my debt remains in good standing. now he can use some of the debt credits he has bought to offset some of his growing overhead expenses due to inflation. we both benefit.

like carbon credits, this is a zero sum game. but it does make for greater debt equity so that others may benefit from a more fairly and widely distributed debt.

just one more example of the beauty of market solutions.

Jim Nickerson
02-27-08, 01:56 PM
metalman, I appreciate your perspective on these things, it really adds a lot to the discussion and to my understanding.

EDIT: could it be that you got back on your meds?

EDIT2: You know, metalman, thinking about this a bit more, it is your explanation that I think leads me to finally understanding "debt deflation." That term has been rather hot around here, and only now am I grasping its meaning and significance, assuming of course what you have written is correct and that I am actually grasping its meaning. You hit the nail on the head when you said that I was dense. I am admittedly about a lot of stuff. I don't know how I ever made it as far in life as I have, but for sure, I didn't cheat, except on US history in the 11th grade.

EDIT3: actually another post, but is there a difference in saying and meaning of "credit contraction" vs. "debt deflation"? Because if one described what metalman did three posts up and had asked me what he was describing I might have eventually come up with "credit contraction" but probably never would have come up with "debt deflation."

metalman
02-27-08, 02:11 PM
did you hear about the new debt credit market, which operates like the carbon credit market? here's how it works.

lets say i've got lots and lots of debt. my neighbor next door hardly has any. as debt deflation is running rampant, my neighbor next door is growing increasingly envious of my debt. So, i sell him some of my debt, charging him just a little more than the debt is worth, then using that profit to pay off just a little of my debt so that my debt remains in good standing. now he can use some of the debt credits he has bought to offset some of his growing overhead expenses due to inflation. we both benefit.

like carbon credits, this is a zero sum game. but it does make for greater debt equity so that others may benefit from a more fairly and widely distributed debt.

just one more example of the beauty of market solutions.

as debt deflation is running rampant, my neighbor next door is growing increasingly envious of my debt.

you're going to have to explain that one to me. your debt payments while flat are still competing with other costs that are rising. your neighbor is in better shape. the last thing he wants is your debt. if he tries to take more on, he'll have to pay ever higher interest rates charge by lenders to compensate for rising inflation. that's why gold, silver, and platinumn (woo hoo!) are going through the roof. some are still willing to lose money for the "safety" of gov't bonds but more will go to safety from loss of purchasing power... commodities. not until long rates start to rise will gold start to fall. if long bonds leap as some expect... watch out! gold will fall like a rock. but you, in your example, don't have any gold. too bad!

as to the person-to-person lending... sounds like prosper.com. only one hitch... you still need a debt collector because some neighbors aren't going to pay. unless you send over your cousin vinny.

jimmygu3
02-27-08, 03:43 PM
i, too, have been concerned that "inflating away" is a solution for [fixed] debt only if the inflation feeds into incomes. i had an exchange with e.j. on this, to which he posted an academic study showing that inflation seemed to drive wages more than vice versa. the paper was out of the federal reserve bank of cleveland, titled "does wage inflation cause price inflation?" last line of the abstract: " On the contrary, the authors find more evidence that higher prices lead to wage growth."

I think Americans are going to 'feel' inflation as China continues to move its dollar peg, or removes it altogether. When J6P has to pay twice as much for a TV at Big Box Mart, he'll realize the dollar just ain't what it used to be.

Consider a 50% move in the US$/Yuan exchange rate over time. Many domestic goods would replace Chinese imports. By pricing at or just below the inflated Chinese prices, domestic businesses would have greater revenues from which to pay increased salaries. Workers would demand it.

donalds
02-27-08, 06:05 PM
metalman:

Perhaps I was being a little too cute or clever, but I was attempting to make a point, opposite of what I wrote, by way of sarcasm (guess it wasn't obvious enough), a point that is entirely in agreement with your own.

metalman
02-27-08, 07:08 PM
metalman:

Perhaps I was being a little too cute or clever, but I was attempting to make a point, opposite of what I wrote, by way of sarcasm (guess it wasn't obvious enough), a point that is entirely in agreement with your own.

your posts are quite on point and analytical, so no i did not pick up on the sarcasm. but you raise a point of confusion for many... rising inflation is "good" for debtors. you demonstrate that it is not good, but how it is less bad than deflation. that has always been the point of kapoom theory... inflation as a politically lesser evil but not good for debtors.

jk
02-27-08, 07:36 PM
inflation is good for debtors provided that their incomes or assets rise with the inflation rate. the debt is a fixed amount, and its relative value diminishes as prices and incomes rise. say you'd borrowed $300k in 2002 at a fixed rate of 5% and bought 1000 oz of gold @300/oz. i think you'd conclude that inflation had been very good for you, indeed. this is the kind of reasoning that used to be applicable to housing, but of course circumstances have changed in that arena.

Jim Nickerson
02-27-08, 07:54 PM
.. is there a difference in saying and meaning of "credit contraction" vs. "debt deflation"? Because if one described what metalman did a few posts up and had asked me what he was describing I might have eventually come up with "credit contraction" but probably never would have come up with "debt deflation."

What is the difference in "credit contraction," and "debt deflation"?

Anybody.

metalman
02-27-08, 08:09 PM
What is the difference in "credit contraction," and "debt deflation"?

Anybody.

deflate: to reduce (currency, prices, etc.) from an inflated condition; to affect with deflation.

contract: to become drawn together or reduced in compass; become smaller; shrink.

credit: the alternative to cash in transactions.

debt: the result of a credit transaction.

credit contraction: a reduction in available credit available for transactions that will result in an increase in debt.

debt deflation: a reduction in the level of debt, the result of previous and future credit transactions related to a reduction in credit and cash.

Jim Nickerson
02-27-08, 09:01 PM
deflate: to reduce (currency, prices, etc.) from an inflated condition; to affect with deflation.

contract: to become drawn together or reduced in compass; become smaller; shrink.

credit: the alternative to cash in transactions.

debt: the result of a credit transaction.

credit contraction: a reduction in available credit available for transactions that will result in an increase in debt.

debt deflation: a reduction in the level of debt, the result of previous and future credit transactions related to a reduction in credit and cash.

I imagine that bit of pedantry was painful for you, metalman, but thank you for the definitions.

Well, to my brain they are the same thing, and I think your original post:
new debt is less affordable so he doesn't take on more debt, unless interest payments are falling. remember he used to be able to roll that credit card debt into a cheap home equity loan or get cash via a cheapo refi. i doubt this guy is going to take on more debt except if it raises cash. plus his credit is shrinking as the banks and credit card co. tighten lending standards.

j6p is screwed. so are the banks and credit card co. so is the us economy. big surprise... debt deflation. typifies "credit contraction."

If there is a different economic outcome between the two, what is the difference?

Thanks again, metalman.<!-- / message -->

touchring
02-27-08, 09:21 PM
I think Americans are going to 'feel' inflation as China continues to move its dollar peg, or removes it altogether. When J6P has to pay twice as much for a TV at Big Box Mart, he'll realize the dollar just ain't what it used to be.

Consider a 50% move in the US$/Yuan exchange rate over time. Many domestic goods would replace Chinese imports. By pricing at or just below the inflated Chinese prices, domestic businesses would have greater revenues from which to pay increased salaries. Workers would demand it.


A 50% move will not make American goods more competitive.

What kind of impact on competitiveness would paying $230 month for a China factory worker after revaluation, versus $150 pre-revaluation?

GRG55
02-27-08, 10:30 PM
A 50% move will not make American goods more competitive.

What kind of impact on competitiveness would paying $230 month for a China factory worker after revaluation, versus $150 pre-revaluation?

As others have pointed out before, if wages paid were the only factor that determines competitiveness then Haiti would be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.

A 50% currency move will improve competitiveness in the USA for a time, provided the inputs are exclusively or predominantly USA sourced. For example, producers using US made steel from US mined iron ore will gain an advantage [for a while] over the guy across the street who buys his steel from Brazil and is seeing costs rise as the Brazilian real rises. Since the Gulf currrencies are US$ proxies, I have been dealing with this exact issue on my firms international petroleum projects. Projects in jurisdictions where operating costs are not in the "dollar zone" are at increasing competitive disadvantage as the US$ has fallen, and our allocations of new project capital have been modified accordingly over recent years. A comparison of the current situation at Airbus and Boeing, is another example; as is European carmakers continued appetite to install capacity in the USA.

People seem to forget that the US is still a huge producer of energy and raw materials like coal and copper (just two examples) and food. But in the end, EJ is correct in that US located producers of these sorts of inputs, while benefiting from the lower costs to produce, are not motivated to sell at a discount to their foreign competitors (imports ultimately set the price) - and that's ultimately inflationary.

Eventually the depreciating currency advantage is eroded away by spiralling wages and salaries - and we are finally seeing that happening in the Gulf now. Eventually Boeing et al will see this too.

babbittd
02-27-08, 11:13 PM
This is a good one....I'm sending this around to friends and family, along with the press release from Hudson's book (thanks Rajiv) as a primer on the global financial system and the U.S. economic system.

If Tet doesn't refer me to ITulip in the spring of '07, than I would have stupidly overpaid for a mortgage on my first house in the summer of '07 and would most assuredly be screwed at this moment. Thank you Tet! Thank you E.J.!

touchring
02-28-08, 05:30 AM
As others have pointed out before, if wages paid were the only factor that determines competitiveness then Haiti would be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.


Surely, gross wages in Germany are higher than in the US, and on top of that, they work lesser hours. If wages were the only factor, Germany wouldn't be doing that well today.

RebbePete
02-28-08, 10:00 AM
we're talking about the monthly payment consumer here, right? he thinks in terms of how much a thing costs this month and how much he owes this month vs how much he's making this month. it's all about cash flow. what's variable and what's fixed? he buys less gasoline, that's variable. he can drag out his debt payments, that's variable. his income is fixed. so as you say he pays back the creditor slower as inflation takes a bigger chunk of income. new debt is less affordable so he doesn't take on more debt, unless interest payments are falling. remember he used to be able to roll that credit card debt into a cheap home equity loan or get cash via a cheapo refi. i doubt this guy is going to take on more debt except if it raises cash. plus his credit is shrinking as the banks and credit card co. tighten lending standards.


I agree that, without wages rising, there's no way consumer debt can be inflated away.

One thing that would help wages a small amount to rise would be if energy costs rose to the point that importing goods from far away (e.g. China) would become cost prohibitive. This is not, however, a sure thing.

Automation crushes wages in the manufacturing arena, but the progress of automation in eliminating jobs was held at bay through the efforts of labor unions. I worked in a newspaper for a while, and the union contract demanded that about 80 people would work on a shift in a plant that only took three people to operate. Globalization has let the automation genii out of the bottle by crippling the ability of organized labor to get its way due to the threat of moving jobs overseas. So, even if jobs moved back to US soil, I doubt that they will move back in a large enough quantity to pump up wages.

The other elephant in the room is the demographic bulge of the baby boomers, who are retiring and pegging their incomes to the Social Security COLA and to the return on assets like stocks and bonds. In that sense, it turns conventional wisdom on its head - the lower the interest rates, the less they consume since they have less to spend.

PS I'm not sure gasoline is that variable for the typical wage earner. He has to get back and forth to work.

GRG55
03-15-08, 07:58 AM
Ask iTulip: The Bernanke Goat Rodeo and Doubting the Next Boom

Never have so many been promised so much by leaders with so little intention to pay up.

by Eric Janszen

Interest created by the “Next Bubble” Harper’s article that's now available online (http://harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908) has put me way behind on mail from subscribers. Unfortunately, I can’t answer all the great questions. I’ll focus on two that are representative...

http://www.itulip.com/images/globaleconomy.gifWhence Funding the Next Boom?...

...Q: Given the losses foreigners (and Americans) the Fed's rate-dropping, will there be the wherewithal to fund another bubble? For example, if the dollar continues to drop, and with low interest rates, surely buying dollar-dominated assets is a losing proposition.

A: After the last major debt deflation in the US in the 1930s, FDR went to primary wealth holders in the US with an offer better than their counterparts were getting in Europe at the time. In the current instance, the US is a debtor not a creditor as it was in the 1930s, and so the onus is on US creditors to help the US not default on its debt. They are motivated to assist the US in managing its debt deflation and rolling recessions without further externalizing these, as the US has already by allowing the dollar to depreciate over 35%. The US will offer its creditors a workout deal composed of: one, inflating away of debt; two, the sale of capital and assets via sovereign wealth funds, treasury purchases via appropriations, and central bank funds; and three participation in the re-industrialization of the US via investment in for-profit P3s and start-ups developing next generation national transportation, energy, and communications projects and technologies. In this way, China, Japan, and oil producers can invest their dollar denominated reserve assets, such as treasury bonds, that they cannot spend at home. This will also have the effect of reducing dollar depreciation, thus reducing losses to inflation...




And here's the President, right on cue. bill, your worst nightmare just came true... :p

Peak Oil Passnotes: Owned (by China)

By Edward Tapamor

14 Mar 2008 at 01:50 PM GMT-04:00


PARIS (ResourceInvestor.com) -- President George W Bush was speaking to a group of senior economic figures at the Economic club of New York Friday, quipping merrily, as he usually does. He was trying to reassure his elite audience, saying the U.S. should allow access to its markets just as others should allow the U.S. to access theirs.

Of course this rings true for the collected great and the good as the sheer size and scale of the U.S. economy can wreak a profitable mayhem when allowed access to other country’s fiscal systems. It has worked brilliantly in the past, cotton farmers can attest to that, in the U.S. they are more of a protected species than the bald eagle.


One of the special items President Bush pointed out was that sovereign wealth funds – many of them from the middle east - should be allowed to buy up assets in the U.S. “because it is our money anyway,” he said to his only round of applause and much laughter. “We might as well get it back,” he added.

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=41220

FRED
03-15-08, 05:58 PM
And here's the President, right on cue. bill, your worst nightmare just came true... :p
Peak Oil Passnotes: Owned (by China) By Edward Tapamor14 Mar 2008 at 01:50 PM GMT-04:00


PARIS (ResourceInvestor.com) -- President George W Bush was speaking to a group of senior economic figures at the Economic club of New York Friday, quipping merrily, as he usually does. He was trying to reassure his elite audience, saying the U.S. should allow access to its markets just as others should allow the U.S. to access theirs.

Of course this rings true for the collected great and the good as the sheer size and scale of the U.S. economy can wreak a profitable mayhem when allowed access to other country’s fiscal systems. It has worked brilliantly in the past, cotton farmers can attest to that, in the U.S. they are more of a protected species than the bald eagle.
One of the special items President Bush pointed out was that sovereign wealth funds – many of them from the middle east - should be allowed to buy up assets in the U.S. “because it is our money anyway,” he said to his only round of applause and much laughter. “We might as well get it back,” he added.
http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=41220

That is just horrific: "We might as well get it back"? We've traded our fixed assets for consumables. See Finster's Capital Injections Unspun (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23001#post23001).

jk
03-15-08, 07:14 PM
That is just horrific: "We might as well get it back"? We've traded our fixed assets for consumables. See Finster's Capital Injections Unspun (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23001#post23001).
http://www.lrjjr.com/holding_hands_with_evil.jpeg

GRG55
03-16-08, 01:08 AM
http://www.lrjjr.com/holding_hands_with_evil.jpeg


Do you think they spent any time talking about faith and freedom, or just gabbing about the oil price and the bonar? :rolleyes:



Excerpt from an interview with Bob Schieffer of CBS News on October 13, 2004.

GEORGE W. BUSH: First, my faith plays a big part in my life. That’s when I was answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very—it’s very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for troops in harm’s way. I pray for my family. I pray for my little girls. But I’m mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You’re equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. If you’re a Christian or you’re Muslim, you’re equally an American. That’s the great thing about America is the right to worship the way you see fit. Prayer in religion sustains me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, well how do you know? I said, I just feel it. Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else, but when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from what I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself. That’s manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we’ve unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. I believe that God wants everybody to be free—that’s what I believe, and that’s one part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the almighty, and I cannot tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. So, my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me and religion is a part of me.

What I really want to know is how good is King Abdulla wielding a chain saw and clearing brush?

babbittd
03-16-08, 02:57 AM
That is just horrific: "We might as well get it back"? We've traded our fixed assets for consumables. See Finster's Capital Injections Unspun (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23001#post23001).

Fred, it gets worse, until you remember that one of the President's main tasks is to attempt to maintain confidence in the system.

President Bush Visits the Economic Club of New York (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/03/20080314-5.html):

...And after 52 consecutive months of job growth, which is a record, our economy obviously is going through a tough time...

[..]

...Wages have risen...

[..]

...I respect Ben Bernanke...

[..]

...I believe strongly that NAFTA has been positive for the United States of America, like it's been positive for our trading partners in Mexico and Canada...

[..]

...Let me talk about another aspect of keeping markets open. A confident nation accepts capital from overseas. We can protect our people against investments that jeopardize our national security, but it makes no sense to deny capital, including sovereign wealth funds, from access to the U.S. markets. It's our money to begin with. (Laughter.) It seems like we ought to let it back... (Applause.)

I listened to the audio and the people in the audience appeared to be laughing along with Dubya on that one.