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don
04-15-13, 05:10 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/16/us/16BOSTON3/16BOSTON3-popup.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/16/us/16boston/16boston-articleLarge.jpg


By KEN BELSON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ken_belson/index.html) and MARY PILON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/mary_pilon/index.html)

A series of explosions erupted near the finish line at the Boston Marathon on Monday. The Boston Police Department confirmed that they were looking into an explosion, but had no further comment.

The Associated Press reported that the authorities were helping injured runners leave the scene and bloody spectators were being carried to a medical tent that was being used for runners.

The A.P. said that a loud explosion was heard on the north side of Boylston Street, near a photo bridge that marks the finish line. Another explosion was heard several seconds later.

Local television showed ambulances at the scene. Pictures posted online showed several injured runners being attended to and smoke around the finish line.

The headquarters for the organizers of the marathon, one of the world’s oldest, was reportedly locked down while authorities investigate. Reporters inside the Copley Plaza Hotel, where the media center is and where many elite athletes are staying, were unable to leave.

The explosions went off more than four hours after the start of the men’s race, which meant that there were still several thousand runners yet to finish the race.

Big city authorities are typically on the highest levels of alert for events like a marathon, said Anthony Roman, a security expert.

“It is quite the counterterrorism effort,” said Mr. Roman, who runs Roman & Associates, a New York firm.

For major events in New York and other large cities, Mr. Roman said the police would typically weld manhole covers shut, while also examining the entire route just before the race. They will also place snipers on rooftops, with helicopters overhead.

Analytic cameras in the city will be focusing on the race, he said.

“They have all the analytic cameras in the city focusing on the race with their advanced software network, reading license plates,” Roman said.

The Boston Marathon is one of track’s most storied events, established in 1897 and one of the six World Marathon Majors. The event typically attracts an estimated 500,000 spectators and requires certain qualifying times for runners to compete. The course winds throughout downtown Boston as well as several outlying cities, including Ashland, Framingham, Natick, Wellesley and Newton.

Unlike many sporting events that take place in closed arenas, marathons are known and heralded for their sprawl, allowing throngs of spectators to line the 26.2-mile course.

Within minutes of the explosions on Monday, social media and cable networks projected the images of gray smoke on Boylston Street in Boston, emergency crews on the scene and an unknown number of persons injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/explosions-reported-at-site-of-boston-marathon.html?hp&pagewanted=print

metalman
04-15-13, 05:11 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/16/us/16BOSTON3/16BOSTON3-popup.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/16/us/16boston/16boston-articleLarge.jpg


By KEN BELSON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ken_belson/index.html) and MARY PILON (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/mary_pilon/index.html)

A series of explosions erupted near the finish line at the Boston Marathon on Monday. The Boston Police Department confirmed that they were looking into an explosion, but had no further comment.

The Associated Press reported that the authorities were helping injured runners leave the scene and bloody spectators were being carried to a medical tent that was being used for runners.

The A.P. said that a loud explosion was heard on the north side of Boylston Street, near a photo bridge that marks the finish line. Another explosion was heard several seconds later.

Local television showed ambulances at the scene. Pictures posted online showed several injured runners being attended to and smoke around the finish line.

The headquarters for the organizers of the marathon, one of the world’s oldest, was reportedly locked down while authorities investigate. Reporters inside the Copley Plaza Hotel, where the media center is and where many elite athletes are staying, were unable to leave.

The explosions went off more than four hours after the start of the men’s race, which meant that there were still several thousand runners yet to finish the race.

Big city authorities are typically on the highest levels of alert for events like a marathon, said Anthony Roman, a security expert.

“It is quite the counterterrorism effort,” said Mr. Roman, who runs Roman & Associates, a New York firm.

For major events in New York and other large cities, Mr. Roman said the police would typically weld manhole covers shut, while also examining the entire route just before the race. They will also place snipers on rooftops, with helicopters overhead.

Analytic cameras in the city will be focusing on the race, he said.

“They have all the analytic cameras in the city focusing on the race with their advanced software network, reading license plates,” Roman said.

The Boston Marathon is one of track’s most storied events, established in 1897 and one of the six World Marathon Majors. The event typically attracts an estimated 500,000 spectators and requires certain qualifying times for runners to compete. The course winds throughout downtown Boston as well as several outlying cities, including Ashland, Framingham, Natick, Wellesley and Newton.

Unlike many sporting events that take place in closed arenas, marathons are known and heralded for their sprawl, allowing throngs of spectators to line the 26.2-mile course.

Within minutes of the explosions on Monday, social media and cable networks projected the images of gray smoke on Boylston Street in Boston, emergency crews on the scene and an unknown number of persons injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/explosions-reported-at-site-of-boston-marathon.html?hp&pagewanted=print

planned to go with the missus like we do every year... but had a doctor's appt. we usually park out right before the finish line... right about... here...

actual explosion...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZjtzyqtelP4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

aftermath...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ew4oxkggNEw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

3 confirmed dead... there's a lot of blood on that sidewalk. holy crap...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4LjZTeWxBSo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

don
04-15-13, 05:15 PM
• Two dead, 23 injured in at least two finish-line explosions
• Runners were still finishing the race when blasts hit
• Participant: 'There are a lot of people down'
• Surrounding buildings were being evacuated

shiny!
04-15-13, 05:34 PM
Your post gave me chills, metalman. I'm very glad you and your wife are OK.

What the h3ll is going on today?

flintlock
04-15-13, 05:39 PM
Tax day protest or foreign terrorist?

verdo
04-15-13, 05:40 PM
Your post gave me chills, metalman. I'm very glad you and your wife are OK.

What the h3ll is going on today?

I know right? I'm almost afraid to ask if things could get any worse

thriftyandboringinohio
04-15-13, 05:41 PM
Your post gave me chills, metalman. I'm very glad you and your wife are OK.

What the h3ll is going on today?

That's a great question, shiny. Gold plunging, explosion in Boston, threats from North Korea.
If there is a global fear-generating machine hidden in some cavern, it is running in top gear today.

metalman
04-15-13, 05:54 PM
Your post gave me chills, metalman. I'm very glad you and your wife are OK.

What the h3ll is going on today?

sorry to scare you but... yeh. we stay overnight & walk from alston in the wee hours... arrive in the dark & wait.

i feel so sad for those poor people... can you imagine? not just the families of the dead but the injured... a lifetime of suffering... for what? attending a marathon?

no one's claimed responsibility yet. suicide bomb?

verdo
04-15-13, 06:01 PM
Good to see that you dodged that bullet metalman


That's a great question, shiny. Gold plunging, explosion in Boston, threats from North Korea.
If there is a global fear-generating machine hidden in some cavern, it is running in top gear today.

I was thinking the very thing same. Fear is just being ratcheted up to a boiling point all over the place, and all within a very short time span

Penguin
04-15-13, 06:04 PM
I agree Metalman. Glad to see you weren't in the area and are faring well.

Will

BadJuju
04-15-13, 06:14 PM
I was thinking the very thing same. Fear is just being ratcheted up to a boiling point all over the place, and all within a very short time span

Sounds like business as usual here.

shiny!
04-15-13, 06:22 PM
Fear is just being ratcheted up to a boiling point all over the place, and all within a very short time span

Oddly enough, I feel strangly serene today. I go through life with chronic anxiety, always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Today feels like it has, and I can finally relax. Weird.

GRG55
04-15-13, 07:01 PM
sorry to scare you but... yeh. we stay overnight & walk from alston in the wee hours... arrive in the dark & wait.

i feel so sad for those poor people... can you imagine? not just the families of the dead but the injured... a lifetime of suffering... for what? attending a marathon?

no one's claimed responsibility yet. suicide bomb?

Mass shootings, public bombings, mental health disorders, religious zealots, ideologues ...the world seems a very unstable place these days.

Relieved to hear that you did not get caught up in any of this today mm!

don
04-15-13, 07:11 PM
Oddly enough, I feel strangly serene today. I go through life with chronic anxiety, always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Today feels like it has, and I can finally relax. Weird.

A feeling often shared by natural disaster residence, who have lots and lots of real, honest-to-god, work to do. The letdown, post-catastrophe, comes later.

Mega
04-15-13, 07:18 PM
Saudi.

LorenS
04-15-13, 07:22 PM
News reports that they have a suspect in custody. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/authorities_under_suspect_guard_y2m8cJO29uC2PDGIjY BalO

Also today the wacky new New York gun laws go into effect. It will be interesting to see what freedoms we are supposed to give up now.

I feel bad for the victims, but our "leaders" seem bound and determined to make sure we all suffer whenever something bad happens.

shiny!
04-15-13, 08:02 PM
Also today the wacky new New York gun laws go into effect. It will be interesting to see what freedoms we are supposed to give up now.


It should be against the law to set off bombs. Oh, wait.

verdo
04-15-13, 08:40 PM
I hear the apparent suspect captured that is being reported is actually not true. Seems to be so much news coming out from this, its hard to discern what the hard facts are

EJ
04-15-13, 09:10 PM
We have many friends who live in the Back Bay or regularly attend the Marathon from the area. We have been occupied checking in with them and accounting for everyone we know.

So far it looks like none of our friends or their children are among the 100+ injured or two dead.

Lucky us.

One friend describes his condo on Marlboro Street shaking from the blast while he worked from home and cared for his ill son. Another describes being shaken while riding the T below ground.

It's hard to describe how it feels to see a venerable celebration of global amateur runners, a uniquely American celebration of democratic global athletic competition, and also an occasion to get together with local friends and family, attacked in this way.

To see the sidewalks where I have spent many hours with friends and family enjoying dinner outside on warm summer evenings and fall afternoons, over decades, stained with the blood of innocent men, women, and children.

But I suppose that's the depraved message of this attack.

Not usually at a loss for words I am today except to offer my deepest sympathy to the victims.

dcarrigg
04-16-13, 12:11 AM
We have many friends who live in the Back Bay or regularly attend the Marathon from the area. We have been occupied checking in with them and accounting for everyone we know.

So far it looks like none of our friends or their children are among the 100+ injured or two dead.

Lucky us.

One friend describes his condo on Marlboro Street shaking from the blast while he worked from home and cared for his ill son. Another describes being shaken while riding the T below ground.

It's hard to describe how it feels to see a venerable celebration of global amateur runners, a uniquely American celebration of democratic global athletic competition, and also an occasion to get together with local friends and family, attacked in this way.

To see the sidewalks where I have spent many hours with friends and family enjoying dinner outside on warm summer evenings and fall afternoons, over decades, stained with the blood of innocent men, women, and children.

But I suppose that's the depraved message of this attack.

Not usually at a loss for words I am today except to offer my deepest sympathy to the victims.

-deleted- decided better than to post online

BadJuju
04-16-13, 12:46 AM
edit: removed my post.

lakedaemonian
04-16-13, 03:49 AM
Simply terrible.

But I think it's worth mentioning that we've been through this type of stuff before:

Weather Underground(US)
Kent State(US)
SLA(US)
Baader Meinhoff(EU EU Germany)
Red Army Faction(EU Germany)
CCC(EU Belgium)
Action Directe(EU France)
Red Brigades(EU Italy)
17N(EU Greece)

The late 1960's thru the late 1980's was a 20 year period where these things happened(not even including all the state sponsored incidents) and we survived.

Heck, there was even a coup on the periphery of the EU in Portugal with left-wing versus right wing stuff going on.

Whenever I think if stuff like this I think of the book/movie Serpico......back when New York was a seedy/corrupt/bankrupt mess.

A bit like today really.....but with a shiny cheap credit vaneer to hide it all under the surface....until it starts peeling away like cheap linoleum.

Maybe we're heading back that way with the odd nasty incident occurring?

I'm not going to speculate on the offenders/rationale for what happened in Boston, but I can't help but think about the kinds of things that happened on occasion in the US/Europe in the late 60's thru late 80's as a gauge for what could possibly happen down the track occasionally to grab the headlines.

lakedaemonian
04-16-13, 04:20 AM
EDIT: Double Post

Chris Coles
04-16-13, 07:11 AM
Simply terrible.

But I think it's worth mentioning that we've been through this type of stuff before:

Weather Underground(US)
Kent State(US)
SLA(US)
Baader Meinhoff(EU EU Germany)
Red Army Faction(EU Germany)
CCC(EU Belgium)
Action Directe(EU France)
Red Brigades(EU Italy)
17N(EU Greece)

The late 1960's thru the late 1980's was a 20 year period where these things happened(not even including all the state sponsored incidents) and we survived.

Heck, there was even a coup on the periphery of the EU in Portugal with left-wing versus right wing stuff going on.

Whenever I think if stuff like this I think of the book/movie Serpico......back when New York was a seedy/corrupt/bankrupt mess.

A bit like today really.....but with a shiny cheap credit vaneer to hide it all under the surface....until it starts peeling away like cheap linoleum.

Maybe we're heading back that way with the odd nasty incident occurring?

I'm not going to speculate on the offenders/rationale for what happened in Boston, but I can't help but think about the kinds of things that happened on occasion in the US/Europe in the late 60's thru late 80's as a gauge for what could possibly happen down the track occasionally to grab the headlines.

And what did they gain? Nothing really changes. Every nation has a few "nutters" that have no regard for their victims.

My heart goes out to the families of the dead and injured.

Mega
04-16-13, 11:38 AM
No metion of the IRA in your list i see............

c1ue
04-16-13, 01:08 PM
We'll see if this is a McVeigh-like attack or a drone bombing payback.

I don't see any connection between the Boston Marathon and the federal government, though.

It has the hallmarks of straight fearmongering.

c1ue
04-16-13, 01:58 PM
Latest news is saying the bombs were:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Boston-bombs-said-to-be-made-from-pressure-cookers-4438209.php#ixzz2Qe88C4oQ


A person who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation was still going on said that the explosives were put in 6-liter pressure cookers, placed in black duffel bags and left on the ground. They were packed with shrapnel, the person said.

Sure looks like a market bomb setup.

The injuries resulting also seem like a very high power explosion - possibly because of the pressure cooker container but equally possibly because of the explosive (still not revealed).

lakedaemonian
04-16-13, 02:49 PM
I left out the IRA because I think most people would see the clear distinction between the IRA and the rest.

The very long standing Irish political/violence seems to differ substantially from the rest.

The rest all seemed to be slow burning but strictly temporary pre flash mob symptoms related to political/economic flux.

Have a look at Baader Meinhoff.

Before they went full retard violent they pursued aggressive/assertive student protests, mutated towards violence(while still receiving a surprising amount of public support) and mutated into a nasty malignancy.

Same with the Weather Underground.

And while the media made them stars, life carried on.

lakedaemonian
04-16-13, 02:56 PM
I have some formal experience and training with explosives.

From the video I saw, I would hazard a guess of HME(home made explosives).

If high explosives such as C4 or PETN were used I would have expected to see different things in the video so I'm guessing lower velocity explosive.

But I'm not an SME, just my guess.

lakedaemonian
04-16-13, 03:17 PM
Hi Chris.

I'm not claiming they gained or changed anything.

Just pointing out that many western countries have been here before.

I actually see such groups(bar the IRA) as symptoms of a broader set of problems.

In no way do I condone such actions, nor do I wish to debate their success or failure, but trying to look at it from a clinical and detached perspective I wonder if in some ways we are simply seeing history repeat itself.

I agree with you on the fact every country has nutters.

What brought these and other nutters out?

We have to wait and see on this one, but isn't it possible or even maybe likely that many of the issues we debate here that are causing such massive financial and social havoc MAY directly result in such actions by a malignant few?

A million protest
Ten thousand commit acts of civil disobediance
One hundred commits acts of violence
One builds and detonates a bomb

Surely somewhere hidden in all the numbers such as student debt, youth unemployment, uni grad unemployment, underemployment, pension losses, foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc lies some equation to roughly indicate risk/probability of such things happening.

I see it here in the 3rd world(we just received a valid suicide bomber threat at the local girls school), are we really that different?

Beyond the likelihood/frequency of course.

don
04-16-13, 04:13 PM
Early reports mention several were found intact - that's a lot of information.

LorenS
04-16-13, 05:49 PM
I have some formal experience and training with explosives.

From the video I saw, I would hazard a guess of HME(home made explosives).

If high explosives such as C4 or PETN were used I would have expected to see different things in the video so I'm guessing lower velocity explosive.

But I'm not an SME, just my guess.

The amount of smoke in those videos sure makes it seem like some kind of combustible powder instead a real explosive.

Watching the news is like hearing about my grandmother's health problems third hand from my mom. You seldom get facts, they've been lost in translation.

Chris Coles
04-16-13, 06:11 PM
Hi Chris.

I'm not claiming they gained or changed anything.

Just pointing out that many western countries have been here before.

I actually see such groups(bar the IRA) as symptoms of a broader set of problems.

In no way do I condone such actions, nor do I wish to debate their success or failure, but trying to look at it from a clinical and detached perspective I wonder if in some ways we are simply seeing history repeat itself.

I agree with you on the fact every country has nutters.

What brought these and other nutters out?

We have to wait and see on this one, but isn't it possible or even maybe likely that many of the issues we debate here that are causing such massive financial and social havoc MAY directly result in such actions by a malignant few?

A million protest
Ten thousand commit acts of civil disobediance
One hundred commits acts of violence
One builds and detonates a bomb

Surely somewhere hidden in all the numbers such as student debt, youth unemployment, uni grad unemployment, underemployment, pension losses, foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc lies some equation to roughly indicate risk/probability of such things happening.

I see it here in the 3rd world(we just received a valid suicide bomber threat at the local girls school), are we really that different?

Beyond the likelihood/frequency of course.

Just this morning a local who to look at you would not think anything of cited the French revolution; so the points you make are valid. I particularly agree with your vision of the difference regarding the IRA; that is a dispute that has deep historical origins.

The anger of the many is a perfectly valid expression; particularly when placed up on the likes of an iTulip as a point of debate; the problem is with the very few that probably do not have any real capacity to publicly express their resentment; which bottled up becomes the driving force for what are incredibly stupid ideas such as killing and maiming ordinary people.

Here, I do hope the next week is peaceful here in the UK with the Thatcher funeral tomorrow and our own marathon Sunday.

c1ue
04-16-13, 06:16 PM
I have some formal experience and training with explosives.

From the video I saw, I would hazard a guess of HME(home made explosives).

If high explosives such as C4 or PETN were used I would have expected to see different things in the video so I'm guessing lower velocity explosive.

But I'm not an SME, just my guess.

If the explosives were tearing off limbs, isn't that the hallmark of higher propagation speed? That's the kind of thing that seemed to happen with US military bombing during the Vietnam war, for example.

The billow of smoke also would seem to rule out plastic explosives, but then again you don't need C4. Maybe artillery shells as in Afghanistan, maybe fertilizer based stuff, there are all sorts of options I'd think.

Mega
04-16-13, 07:21 PM
Carlos the Jackel ?

shiny!
04-16-13, 07:54 PM
In times of tragedy many people show their character:



Boston Marathon heroes: Kindness and humanity amid the carnage (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9997305/Boston-Marathon-heroes-Kindness-and-humanity-amid-the-carnage.html)

By Harriet Alexander (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/harriet-alexander/)

11:29AM BST 16 Apr 2013


One of the most shared messages on Twitter was a quote from American television host and Presbyterian minister Fred Rogers: "Look for the helpers. You'll always find people who are helping."

And it proved to be true.

So many of the runners continued to run across the finishing line and onwards to the Massachusetts General Hospital, in a rush to give blood, that they had to be turned away.

"Due to the generosity of our donors we don't need blood at this time," wrote the Red Cross for Eastern Massachusetts on Twitter.
Related Articles

But the volunteers kept on coming, leading the organisation to tweet an hour later: "We do *NOT* need blood at this time. Please schedule a future donation."

So great was the wish to help that the Red Cross was forced to set up a diary to arrange appointments for all those queuing up to give blood.

Others provided more immediate assistance. One man was caught on camera rushing straight to site where the bomb had detonated, where bloodied people were lying dazed on the pavement. He ripped off his belt to make a tourniquet and stem the bleeding, before turning to assist other seriously-injured victims.

Luke Russert reported on Twitter that he watched as a white-shirted volunteer in his red official baseball cap wheeled a woman out of the danger zone before rushing immediately back to the scene.

A retired American Football star, Joe Andruzzi, who won the Superbowl three times with the New England Patriots, carried victims away from the carnage (above). All three of his brothers were firemen in New York who responded to the September 11 attacks on the Twin Towers.

His charity cancer foundation was hosting an event on Boylston Street – the same street where the explosions were detonated – and the 37-year-old immediately dashed to help.

Other people opened their homes to those who were stranded, or offered lifts to people without transport. A Google document was set up with offers of help, such as: "Located across the street from Mass General Hospital. I have a couch and an inflatable twin mattress for anyone who needs to stay."

Kristin Corona who lives in central Boston wrote: "I have a couch to offer and two beautiful chihuahuas to love you. My apartment is open to anyone in need."

Restaurants in the area offered free meals and shelter to those caught up in the tragedy, allowing people to pay only if they were able to.

"Open wifi, place to charge your phone, cold drinks, or just don't want to be alone," tweeted the owner of El Pelon, a Mexican restaurant in the area.

"My coworkers and staff deserve a lot of credit: not one blinked when asked, not one when home when they could, those not working came in."

Ellen Z
04-16-13, 10:11 PM
If anyone is interested in learning more about explosive devices and injuries, here's a resource.
___ Explosions and Blast Injuries: A Primer for Clinicians
___ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/explosions.asp

Here's a page with many resources, for clinicians and the general public, on how to prepare for and cope with this sort of event. (The news stories I’m hearing say marathon organizers did a good job of thinking ahead of time about what they’d need to do if something like this happened.)
___ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/index.asp

lakedaemonian
04-17-13, 12:12 AM
Carlos the Jackel ?

He's been in jail for nearly 20 years.

lakedaemonian
04-17-13, 12:16 AM
If anyone is interested in learning more about explosive devices and injuries, here's a resource.
___ Explosions and Blast Injuries: A Primer for Clinicians
___ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/explosions.asp

Here's a page with many resources, for clinicians and the general public, on how to prepare for and cope with this sort of event. (The news stories I’m hearing say marathon organizers did a good job of thinking ahead of time about what they’d need to do if something like this happened.)
___ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/index.asp

The good news/bad news of the last 10+ years has seen considerable improvement in treatment of blast injuries largely through the efforts of publications such as Journal of Special Operations Medicine, albeit as a result of so much unfortunate experience.

20 years ago military medicine spent a lot of time learning from inner city hospital staff with large numbers of gun shot wounds, etc.

Now it's kind of going the other way with some trauma.

lakedaemonian
04-17-13, 01:12 AM
If the explosives were tearing off limbs, isn't that the hallmark of higher propagation speed?

Not necessarily.......low order/velocity explosives are still easily capable of tearing limbs off of people. IIRC overpressure of about 8-12PSI is sufficient to do so, death can occur at less than that.

Low order/velocity of course being a relative thing compared with far more powerful explosives such as C4 or PETN...low order/velocity explosive effect is still generating a blast wave velocity well above that of a rifle round.

That's the kind of thing that seemed to happen with US military bombing during the Vietnam war, for example.

The billow of smoke also would seem to rule out plastic explosives, but then again you don't need C4. Maybe artillery shells as in Afghanistan, maybe fertilizer based stuff, there are all sorts of options I'd think.

Heaps of possibilities, and I'm not schooled up enough to differentiate beyond the basics.

Based on the video, my amateur guess is something like ANFO with a booster.

If it were a reasonable amount of military explosives I believe the explosive effect could have been greatly magnified due to the far higher velocity and blast wave it can generate.

Just my best amateur guess.

--------

What is worth mentioning is the use of pressure cookers.

Pressure cookers being used to make IEDs has been common in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as been used in India and Nepal.

Pressure cookers are probably the most common kitchen appliance here in Afghanistan and coincidentally make a capable improvised explosive container that performs several functions.

A pressure cooker explosive container was found in Times Square back in 2010 I believe.

I think this indicates either a possible link to an overseas based individual/group OR it could indicate someone inside the US with a fair bit of open source knowledge of IEDs used overseas.

Another consideration is waiting to see how the IEDs were aligned with one or more unexploded IEDs recovered. Unfortunately, naughty people have often set complex IED ambushes where they are arrayed in such a way to not only cause initial damage, but to result in a secondary detonation designed to inflict harm on first responders as well.

It shows a greater than "amateur hour" level of knowledge, planning, and execution.

All bits and pieces that much more experienced folks will piece together during the investigation to hopefully lead to an arrest and prosecution.

shiny!
04-17-13, 02:52 AM
It's been over 24 hours and to my knowledge nobody has claimed responsibility. That seems unusual, doesn't it?

don
04-17-13, 08:51 AM
It's been over 24 hours and to my knowledge nobody has claimed responsibility. That seems unusual, doesn't it?

Have no data but that seems to be the case more often than not.

A good thought to keep:



“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Ben Franklin

don
04-17-13, 03:40 PM
Clues emerge . . .

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/17/us/20130417_DEVICE-slide-CSTD/20130417_DEVICE-slide-CSTD-hpMedium.jpg http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/17/us/20130417_DEVICE-slide-RH1A/20130417_DEVICE-slide-RH1A-hpMedium.jpg http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/17/us/20130417_DEVICE-slide-DKO2/20130417_DEVICE-slide-DKO2-hpMedium.jpg http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/17/us/20130417_DEVICE-slide-5XDM/20130417_DEVICE-slide-5XDM-hpMedium.jpg
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Video Points Investigators Toward Suspect in Boston Bombings

By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/katharine_q_seelye/index.html) and MICHAEL COOPER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/michael_cooper/index.html)

BOSTON — Investigators have found video footage of a man who they believe may have planted the deadly bombs at the Boston Marathon, a person briefed on the matter said Wednesday, saying that they had pinpointed the image on video that was captured shortly before the blast.

The possible break in the case came as investigators have pored over scores of videos and photographs that they solicited from surveillance cameras from nearby businesses, smartphone-wielding marathon spectators and television crews who were filming the Boston Marathon when the deadly blasts went off on Monday near the finish line. The revelation of the video footage was the first sign that the authorities might be moving closer to discovering who was behind the attacks, which killed three people and injured more than 170.

As the Boston investigation went into a third day, there were signs that the nation was jittery, and on high alert. New York City officials said there had been an increase of reports of suspicious packages. In Oklahoma City, City Hall was briefly evacuated Wednesday morning as the authorities examined a stolen rental truck that was parked outside, just a few days shy of the anniversary of the 1995 bombing of the nearby Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. (There was no bomb, officials there said.) And in Washington, parts of two Senate office buildings were shut down as officials investigated reports of suspicious letters or packages, and the Secret Service said that a letter addressed to President Obama, containing a suspicious substance, had been intercepted at a screening facility outside the White House.

In Boston, meanwhile, the third fatality of the blast was described as a young woman whose ambitions and hard work took her from her rust-belt hometown in northeast China to graduate studies at Boston University.

The woman was identified as Lu Lingzi by a classmate, a Chinese university official and a state-run newspaper in her home city. Ms. Lu, 23, had moved to Boston to study statistics at Boston University after studying international trade at the Beijing Institute of Technology, according to a résumé that was posted online. In her hometown, Shenyang, the Shenyang Evening News, the state-run newspaper that announced her death, darkened its Web site in honor of a “Shenyanger who passed away in a far away place.”

The three people killed in the blast were a cross-section of Boston, brought together seemingly at random to watch one the city’s proud traditions, the marathon. There was Ms. Lu, one of the thousands of international students drawn to the area’s universities. There was Martin Richard, a vivacious 8-year-old third grader from a well-loved family in Dorchester, a tight-knit community. And there was Krystle Campbell, 29, of Arlington, Mass., a hard-working woman known for her sense of humor who had started working at restaurants as a waitress in high school and now worked as a restaurant manager. Boston prepared to mourn them at a service with President Obama on Thursday.

More surgeries were scheduled for Wednesday for the victims of the bomb blasts, including eight at Boston Medical Center, officials said.

A 5-year-old boy remained in critical condition Wednesday at Boston Medical Center, Dr. Peter Burke, the chief of trauma services at the hospital said at a morning briefing. He was one of 19 patients who remain there, he said, and one of two who were in critical condition — down from 10 who were in critical condition on Tuesday.

“I’m very optimistic,” Dr. Burke said, adding that it was possible that another patient or two could be discharged Wednesday. “I will not be happy until they’re all home,” he said.

Three children who were injured in the blast remained at Boston Children’s Hospital on Wednesday, the hospital announced: a 2-year-old boy with a head injury was listed in good condition, while a 10-year-old boy and a 9-year-old girl, both with leg injuries, were in critical condition.

A piece of the lid of one of the pressure cookers that investigators believe were used as explosive devices in the bombings was found on a rooftop near the blast, a law enforcement official said on Wednesday — giving a sense of the tremendous force of the explosion. Law enforcement officials said that the bombs were most likely rudimentary devices made from ordinary kitchen pressure cookers, except they were rigged to shoot sharp bits of shrapnel into anyone within reach of their blast and maim them severely, law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

The pressure cookers were filled with nails, ball bearings and black powder, and the devices were triggered by “kitchen-type” egg timers, one official said.

The resulting explosions sent metal tearing through skin and muscle, destroying the lower limbs of some victims who had only shreds of tissue holding parts of their legs together when they arrived at the emergency room of Massachusetts General Hospital, doctors there said.

Law enforcement officials said the devices were probably hidden inside dark nylon duffel bags or backpacks and left on the street or sidewalk near the finish line. Forensic experts said that the design and components of the homemade devices were generic but that the marking “6L,” indicating a six-liter container, could help identify a brand and manufacturer and possibly lead to information on the buyer.

Details about the explosives emerged as President Obama announced that the F.B.I. was investigating the attack as “an act of terrorism,” and made plans to travel to Boston on Thursday for an interfaith service at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross.

But officials said they still had no suspects in custody and did not give the impression that they were close to making an arrest as they repeatedly noted that the investigation was in its infancy.

“The range of suspects and motives remains wide open,” Richard DesLauriers, the special agent in charge of the F.B.I.'s Boston office, said at a televised briefing on Tuesday afternoon. And, he added, no one has claimed responsibility.

At this stage of an inquiry, officials said it was not unusual for there to be no suspects. But with the paucity of leads, Mr. DesLauriers and others pleaded with members of the public to submit any photographs or video they may have taken at the blast site to help in the investigation. At the briefing, Mr. DesLauriers said that someone somewhere almost certainly heard a mention of the marathon or the date of April 15.

“Someone knows who did this,” he said. “Cooperation from the community will play a crucial role.”

Officials said they had received more than 2,000 tips from around the world. As marathoners left through Logan Airport on Tuesday, security personnel reminded them of the importance of sharing their pictures with the F.B.I.

Counterterrorism specialists said the authorities would aim to match the faces of any possible suspects, using facial recognition software, against an array of databases for visas, passports and drivers’ licenses. “It’s our intention to go through every frame of every video that we have to determine exactly who was in the area,” Edward Davis, the Boston police commissioner, said at the news briefing. “This was probably one of the most well-photographed areas in the country yesterday.”

Given the force of the blasts, doctors at area hospitals said that the death toll could have been much higher but that the triage teams at the blast site had done a good job of sending the victims to the hospitals capable of handling them.

“The distribution worked wonderfully,” said Dr. Stephen K. Epstein, attending emergency physician at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. “It was very easy to match the number of patients to the resources available at each of the hospitals.”

The scale of the attack and the crude nature of the explosives, coupled with the lack of anyone claiming to have been the perpetrator, suggested to experts that the attacker could be an individual or a small group rather than an established terrorist organization.

“This could have been a one-person job,” said Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism specialist at Georgetown University. “That makes it much harder to track. When we catch terrorists, it’s usually because they’re part of a conspiracy and they’re communicating with one another.”

“It will have to go through a many tests to see what they can glean further and identify where it was produced and sold, and then look at it forensically,” a law enforcement official said. Officials said on Tuesday that evidence from the scene was being shipped to labs in Quantico, Va. Fox News showed pictures that it said were from the crime scene that showed a chunk of a somewhat pulverized stainless steel pressure cooker, with its UL number visible.

Steven Bartholomew, a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said that the blast was powerful enough to toss debris on top of buildings. “Some of that debris got projected on top of buildings, and embedded in buildings in that finish line area, so that tells us we have a lot of work to do,” Mr. Bartholomew said.

Katharine Q. Seelye reported from Boston, and Michael Cooper from New York. Reporting was contributed by John Eligon, Mary Pilon, Richard A. Oppel Jr. and Jess Bidgood from Boston; Scott Shane, Eric Schmitt, Mark Landler and Michael S. Schmidt from Washington; William K. Rashbaum from New York; and Chris Buckley in Hong Kong.

ProdigyofZen
04-17-13, 04:23 PM
mental health disorders,!

The state does nothing to help in regards to mental health disorders. So many suffer from mental health disorders and their family members ask for help from authorities but they do nothing unless they threaten to harm themselvs or someone else. It is deplorable because so many don't exhibit either of those.

I know because an immediate family member of mine has a mental health disorder.

I describe people who have multiple personality disorders or are bipolar as being trapped within their own mind, not knowing what is real and what is fake.

shiny!
04-18-13, 02:19 PM
Lots of pictures of the scene before the blasts (http://imgur.com/a/sUrnA/noscript), with possible "persons of interest" highlighted.

jk
04-18-13, 11:49 PM
The state does nothing to help in regards to mental health disorders. So many suffer from mental health disorders and their family members ask for help from authorities but they do nothing unless they threaten to harm themselvs or someone else. It is deplorable because so many don't exhibit either of those.

what criteria do you propose instead for involuntary commitment? who is to decide whether to put you in a hospital against your will, and on what grounds?

the current system is set up to protect the rights of individuals to be free. it is comparable to the presumption of innocence - allowing possible criminals to remain free in order to reduce the possibility of convicting someone who is innocent. [which we still do often enough].

LorenS
04-19-13, 03:09 PM
It sure looks like they have good suspects now, but if they don't take either one alive it will be hard to know motive or mental state.

So far it seems to meet the "profile" of terrorism.

ProdigyofZen
04-19-13, 03:32 PM
what criteria do you propose instead for involuntary commitment? who is to decide whether to put you in a hospital against your will, and on what grounds?

the current system is set up to protect the rights of individuals to be free. it is comparable to the presumption of innocence - allowing possible criminals to remain free in order to reduce the possibility of convicting someone who is innocent. [which we still do often enough].

I think those rules are in the state rulebook so they do not have to deal with mental health disorders. The authorities and doctors etc can see and tell for sure that someone has a mental health disorder and needs help but refuse to help based on some arbitrary rule that "they have not tried to harm themselves or someone else" it is ridiculous.

I was told point blank by the doctor and social worker that my mother needed help and exhibited all the signs of either bipolar or some multiple personality disorder but the doctor said he could do nothing about it because she had not harmed anyone.

The doctor refused to admit her for 3 days because he couldn't legally as he told me. My mother refused to admit herself because she believed there was nothing wrong with her. (this was at a time when she was having what ended up being a year long episode)

I had to take drastic action and try to have her forcefully committed by the state (which took the form of me signing papers, delivering documents to the courthouse and then the state police coming to take her to be evaluated).

Now do you think I wished to do any of those things?

3 hours later she walked out of the police station (they never brought me in to speak with the psychiatrist/ state social workers etc) and had the police officer drive her home.

They did nothing and said she was okay, could not committ her because she never tried to kill herself or anyone else.

She barely survived that year of her life and still to this day has no help. She weighs 86 pounds and everyone in the town I grew up knows for a fact she has mental issues.

My own sisters have refused to speak to her ever since. They live 1 mile and 4 miles away from her.

Now I understand perhaps there are some cases where peoples "rights" need to be protected but when everyone from doctors to social workers etc are saying she needs mental help and the state refuses to help that tells you something.

She can't even get social security disablity as she refuses to see a psychiatrist and her own medical doctor refuses to send anything to SSDI that states she has a mental health disorder because he can't get her officially evaluated for him to sign off on. Even though he knows something is wrong with her.

But then again I see these young people (perfectly able to work) around here that are 20 years old and have social security benefits etc just for having children yet my mother cannot get any help?

All the burden falls on me as I am the only one with enough understanding and patience to deal with the situation in perpetuity.

LorenS
04-19-13, 05:18 PM
Now I understand perhaps there are some cases where peoples "rights" need to be protected but when everyone from doctors to social workers etc are saying she needs mental help and the state refuses to help that tells you something.




I'm sorry about your mom. On the other hand during my parents' divorce feelings were running high and both of them were convinced the other one was having "issues". This kind of thing needs to be handled very carefully.

I think the biggest lie of them all is that if we just give "someone" the right rules and the right power "everything will be alright".

Boston is a poster child for the "correct" gun laws - it's supposed to be a gun free nirvana. Yet, turn on the news. There are cops all over the place with high capacity magazines, assault weapons, tanks, machine guns - and most telling of all - they still have not caught him.

One more question:
If Obama has one of the Boston families on Air Force One what will he be campaigning for this time?

flintlock
04-19-13, 06:38 PM
what criteria do you propose instead for involuntary commitment? who is to decide whether to put you in a hospital against your will, and on what grounds?

the current system is set up to protect the rights of individuals to be free. it is comparable to the presumption of innocence - allowing possible criminals to remain free in order to reduce the possibility of convicting someone who is innocent. [which we still do often enough].


I agree with you but the criteria today for committing someone probably has as much to do with the cost and who is going to pay as it does with personal freedom. The population has boomed but I can't say the same about the number of mental institutions. At some point the safety of the public has to be given some weight as well. It's not that hard to identify threats like the Batman killer. Locking up People like him is a far cry from committing some eccentric aunt who hoards cats. The situation today is a Hot Potato. Nobody wants to deal with it, especially the cost. If we can fund some of the stupid crap we fund these days we should be able to cough up the dough for keeping violently insane people away from our kids. Forget banning guns, or cops in schools. Treat mental health like you would any other threat to public safety.

flintlock
04-19-13, 06:50 PM
If Obama has one of the Boston families on Air Force One what will he be campaigning for this time?

Watch for new restrictions on black powder, smokeless, and anything else that can be turned into a bomb. Calling for bans on almost anything has become the new way for politicians to get their faces on TV and show their constituents they are "doing something by God!" All you have to do is watch the headlines to predict the next ban. Shame, they used to use things like adding new jobs or building new roads to get attention.

don
04-19-13, 07:22 PM
they used to use things like adding new jobs or building new roads to get attention

There are, broadly speaking, two ways to rule.

Things are (always) getting better, or

Fear.

We experienced the first for a couple of decades of Pax Americana.

Not it's Fears turn.

(might I add Fear is cheaper, in our Age of FIRE . . .)

jk
04-19-13, 08:24 PM
I think those rules are in the state rulebook so they do not have to deal with mental health disorders. The authorities and doctors etc can see and tell for sure that someone has a mental health disorder and needs help but refuse to help based on some arbitrary rule that "they have not tried to harm themselves or someone else" it is ridiculous.

I was told point blank by the doctor and social worker that my mother needed help and exhibited all the signs of either bipolar or some multiple personality disorder but the doctor said he could do nothing about it because she had not harmed anyone.

The doctor refused to admit her for 3 days because he couldn't legally as he told me. My mother refused to admit herself because she believed there was nothing wrong with her. (this was at a time when she was having what ended up being a year long episode)

I had to take drastic action and try to have her forcefully committed by the state (which took the form of me signing papers, delivering documents to the courthouse and then the state police coming to take her to be evaluated).

Now do you think I wished to do any of those things?

3 hours later she walked out of the police station (they never brought me in to speak with the psychiatrist/ state social workers etc) and had the police officer drive her home.

They did nothing and said she was okay, could not committ her because she never tried to kill herself or anyone else.

She barely survived that year of her life and still to this day has no help. She weighs 86 pounds and everyone in the town I grew up knows for a fact she has mental issues.

My own sisters have refused to speak to her ever since. They live 1 mile and 4 miles away from her.

Now I understand perhaps there are some cases where peoples "rights" need to be protected but when everyone from doctors to social workers etc are saying she needs mental help and the state refuses to help that tells you something.

She can't even get social security disablity as she refuses to see a psychiatrist and her own medical doctor refuses to send anything to SSDI that states she has a mental health disorder because he can't get her officially evaluated for him to sign off on. Even though he knows something is wrong with her.

But then again I see these young people (perfectly able to work) around here that are 20 years old and have social security benefits etc just for having children yet my mother cannot get any help?

All the burden falls on me as I am the only one with enough understanding and patience to deal with the situation in perpetuity.
in the state in which i live, it is possible for family members to seek civil commitment via a probate court with easier standards than those for involuntary commitment by an examining physician. if a doctor signs papers to commit someone who does not meet the proper criteria, that doctor may be sued for improper imprisonment.

flintlock
04-19-13, 08:39 PM
I have a female friend who has a family history of schizophrenia that seems to run in the males. Both brothers have it. One in particular is considered dangerous and had been confined to an institution for decades. Imagine my surprise when I heard her recently mention to my wife they were having a hard time getting him committed again. I had no idea he was out. But nobody wants him. Seems he was deemed okay to unleash on society recently. I doubt that decision had anything to do with a miraculous cure but rather with budget constraints. I know its expensive, but then so is dealing with the aftermath of some of these incidents.

Perhaps some sort of mental health board, similar to a parole board, with immunity from lawsuits would be appropriate. At least with violent patients.

ProdigyofZen
04-22-13, 11:55 AM
I have a female friend who has a family history of schizophrenia that seems to run in the males. Both brothers have it. One in particular is considered dangerous and had been confined to an institution for decades. Imagine my surprise when I heard her recently mention to my wife they were having a hard time getting him committed again. I had no idea he was out. But nobody wants him. Seems he was deemed okay to unleash on society recently. I doubt that decision had anything to do with a miraculous cure but rather with budget constraints. I know its expensive, but then so is dealing with the aftermath of some of these incidents.

Perhaps some sort of mental health board, similar to a parole board, with immunity from lawsuits would be appropriate. At least with violent patients.

Well, she is much better now and calm. She went through a very bad episode as I said for a year. The only reason I wanted to have her committed was to get her on medication to level out her moods then bring her home. My intention was never to hand her over to that state.

It is a sad state of affairs in the American mental health field.

LorenS
04-23-13, 01:21 PM
Bloomberg is already exploiting this.

http://politicker.com/2013/04/bloomberg-says-post-boston-interpretation-of-the-constitution-will-have-to-change/

shiny!
04-24-13, 07:44 PM
When I first heard about pressure cookers being used to make the bombs, I wrote a post saying that soon we will have to show ID and submit to background checks and registration in order to buy pressure cookers. But I thought such a remark was too callous and cynical in the wake of such a tragedy, so I didn't post it.

Now: Williams-Sonoma pulls pressure cookers from their shelves
(http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/williams-sonoma-pulls-pressure-cookers-shelves-out-respect)

astonas
04-24-13, 08:30 PM
When I first heard about pressure cookers being used to make the bombs, I wrote a post saying that soon we will have to show ID and submit to background checks and registration in order to buy pressure cookers. But I thought such a remark was too callous and cynical in the wake of such a tragedy, so I didn't post it.

Now: Williams-Sonoma pulls pressure cookers from their shelves
(http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/williams-sonoma-pulls-pressure-cookers-shelves-out-respect)

Sad indeed.

But what saddened me more is what I saw when I scrolled down to the comments section. I know that this site is the exception when it comes to civility, but if you stay here too much, you forget just how bad the dialogue gets in other settings!

People are just going nuts, to the point of violence, as they are gradually being forced to confront the reality that they are not immune to the negative opinion of people all over the world simply because they live in America.

The age when information, including fomenting of hatred, can be stopped at our border is gone for good. You would think that people posting on the Internet, of all places, would be capable of understanding that. (And more aware that their own comments can be read the world over.)

Can't say it enough: I'm very glad to have this little island of sanity.

EJ
04-24-13, 09:31 PM
Sad indeed.

But what saddened me more is what I saw when I scrolled down to the comments section. I know that this site is the exception when it comes to civility, but if you stay here too much, you forget just how bad the dialogue gets in other settings!

People are just going nuts, to the point of violence, as they are gradually being forced to confront the reality that they are not immune to the negative opinion of people all over the world simply because they live in America.

The age when information, including fomenting of hatred, can be stopped at our border is gone for good. You would think that people posting on the Internet, of all places, would be capable of understanding that. (And more aware that their own comments can be read the world over.)

Can't say it enough: I'm very glad to have this little island of sanity.

Just returned from my first visit to downtown Boston since the attack. A block from there I sat at a cafe on Newbury street for a drink with a good friend in town from London.

On this first warm, sunny spring afternoon in late April as the bushes bud and apple trees flower, and mothers bump drooling over-educated babies in high tech strollers along uneven sidewalks, and runners pant and bikers weave defiantly through traffic, and grey haired Beacon Hill ladies drag tiny dogs on glass speckled leashes, and bums beg hopefully for beer money, and bad Boston drivers jockey for position at intersections to cut each other off, and fat folded arm cops earn time-and-a-half to guard orange helmeted men standing by half-finished road repairs, and Mass College of Art students waste their parents' hard-earned money as street performance artists, I am glad to report that Boston has already returned to normal.

You can say we are resilient. You can say we have recovered quickly from a piece of very bad of bad luck after recognizing it as such. You can say we collectively have the memory of a fruit fly. Or a combination of all three.

Depends on what you mean by "we."

No matter what anyone says, there is no denying that we are all in some way responsible for the 286 injured and 3 killed in the attack.

We who were not injured or whose family members were not killed or injured can forget, but the injured or killed and their families never can.

The questions are: What can we do for them (not much) and what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future (quite a lot).

shiny!
04-24-13, 10:09 PM
The questions are: What can we do for them (not much) and what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future (quite a lot).

Your post does my heart good, EJ. Thank you.

What do you suggest we do to reduce the possibility of more of these events in the future?

Ellen Z
04-24-13, 10:18 PM
The questions are: What can we do for them (not much) and what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future (quite a lot).

I'd like to hear ideas, from you and from everyone, on "what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future." "We" as in me personally, and also the larger "we," we as a country (and every "we" in between.)

My local paper ran a story today saying the bombers were able to build devices with easily available ingredients, following directions on the Internet. I find myself picturing the other young frustrated people out there who are thinking to themselves, "Hey, it's not so hard... I could do that too." I don't want to have this thought, but it recurs.

radon
04-24-13, 10:53 PM
I'd like to hear ideas, from you and from everyone, on "what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future." "We" as in me personally, and also the larger "we," we as a country (and every "we" in between.)

My local paper ran a story today saying the bombers were able to build devices with easily available ingredients, following directions on the Internet. I find myself picturing the other young frustrated people out there who are thinking to themselves, "Hey, it's not so hard... I could do that too." I don't want to have this thought, but it recurs.

Banning everything that can be turned into a weapon doesn't work, not even in prison, and I'm sure few people are willing to tolerate such draconian measures. Or maybe they will, a 19 year old boy frightened them enough to shut down an entire city.

thriftyandboringinohio
04-24-13, 11:52 PM
... a 19 year old boy frightened them enough to shut down an entire city.

Not really. A ruthless, premeditated, deadly attack on a crowd shut down the city. That it was a 19 year old boy was secondary, and discovered after the fact.

radon
04-24-13, 11:57 PM
Not really. A ruthless, premeditated, deadly attack on a crowd shut down the city. That it was a 19 year old boy was secondary, and discovered after the fact.

Indeed, more disturbing than the attack was the reaction to it.

Master Shake
04-25-13, 08:06 AM
I'd like to hear ideas, from you and from everyone, on "what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future." "We" as in me personally, and also the larger "we," we as a country (and every "we" in between.)

My local paper ran a story today saying the bombers were able to build devices with easily available ingredients, following directions on the Internet. I find myself picturing the other young frustrated people out there who are thinking to themselves, "Hey, it's not so hard... I could do that too." I don't want to have this thought, but it recurs.

For starters, we can have a more restrictive immigration policy and acknowledge that a large percentage of Muslims don't assimilate well and get along with others.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bd-R1kilMpc/T8AOQz0_UTI/AAAAAAAABXE/8SOGDlmjOoU/s1600/coexist.png

ST
04-25-13, 10:54 AM
Crowd funding for victims, bypassing charities:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-24/bombing-victims-get-millions-as-internet-redefines-giving.html

mikedev10
04-25-13, 02:08 PM
I'd like to hear ideas, from you and from everyone, on "what can we do to reduce the probability that there might be more of them in the future." "We" as in me personally, and also the larger "we," we as a country (and every "we" in between.)

My local paper ran a story today saying the bombers were able to build devices with easily available ingredients, following directions on the Internet. I find myself picturing the other young frustrated people out there who are thinking to themselves, "Hey, it's not so hard... I could do that too." I don't want to have this thought, but it recurs.

i'd highly recommend a couple of books by some ex-CIA:

http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Edition-Consequences-American/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366909628&sr=8-2&keywords=blowback

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Hubris/dp/B001JYRNYW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366909637&sr=8-2&keywords=imperial+hubris

and urging for some politicians to make some (actual) change in foreign policy.

c1ue
04-25-13, 04:20 PM
For starters, we can have a more restrictive immigration policy and acknowledge that a large percentage of Muslims don't assimilate well and get along with others.


Given that the younger brother arrived as a 2nd grader - I'm not sure where exactly the fault for 'failure to assimilate' comes from. It also seems quite clear that both brothers were hardly isolated Idaho secessionists; they had girlfriends, went to parties, etc etc.

On the other hand, the Islamophobia in the US is very real. Equally so are the ongoing deaths of innocent Muslims in other parts of the world.

I'm be very interested to see just what prompted their actions. Maybe what we can do to stop this type of behavior lies outside the US.

shiny!
04-25-13, 05:35 PM
The news video in this article is quite troubling:

Has Watertown Made Warrantless Searches the New Normal? (http://cnsnews.com/blog/bob-parks/has-watertown-made-warrantless-searches-new-normal)

Note that I don't care about the author's argument that this would never have happened in a wealthy, upscale neighborhood. I don't know if it would or it wouldn't.

I've been through something similar to this when I lived in Albuquerque. We were caretakers at a 6-acre storage facility, half devoted to storage lockers, half was a storage lot filled with campers, RVs and boats. We lived on site in a 16x70 manufactured home. A murder suspect was on the run; witnesses saw him jump the fence and enter our storage lot.

I first noticed SWAT police on the roofs of the storage locker buildings. Then I saw one walking in my little back yard. Then they knocked on our front door. The two officers explained that they were hunting for a man they believed had killed his girlfriend, and that witnesses had seen him enter our facility. They asked if we were OK and told us to stay inside. Then they returned an hour later and asked if they could search our home to reassure themselves that we weren't being held hostage. They didn't have a warrant.

My husband mentioned that we had weapons in the house, and was that going to be a problem. He said he didn't want them confiscated. The cops said they had no interest in the weapons. So we let them inside. They were extremely polite, looked in the closets and under the bed, and left, again telling us to stay inside.

A few hours later they knocked on our door to tell us they were leaving and it was OK to come outside. My husband went out with them. He noticed that a panel of skirting under our home had been moved, and pointed it out to the cop. They brought over a German Shepherd dog, opened up the skirting and let the dog sniff around under the house while on a leash.

The dog went ballistic! His handler swept a flashlight around but wouldn't go under the house himself. He didn't see anyone under there so they left. A short while later, my husband went on an errand. When he returned he saw that our backyard fence was bent down as if someone had climbed over it. A panel of skirting in the back yard, at the opposite end of the house from the first disturbed panel, was down. We called the police.

Turned out the guy had been hiding under our house for hours, right under our feet. The K-9 dog knew he was there, but its handler hadn't trusted his dog enough to do a thorough search. By the time the police came back the suspect was long gone. I don't know if they ever found him. All that police manpower let him slip right through their fingers.

* * * * *

I've thought about that day many times since Watertown. Would I allow police on a manhunt to go through my home again without a warrant? It would depend on where I live. In Texas, Arizona, or NM, probably "Yes". In Boston or Connecticut or some state where they could very well confiscate my weapons? "No".

If they show up at my door with guns pointed at me I will be very frightened and very angry. Will I leave if they order me to? I don't know. What guarantee would I have that I would be allowed to return to my home in a timely fashion? Or that my pets and possessions would be there when I returned? What would happen to my sick, elderly cats and to my dog if I wasn't allowed to return home quickly?

I just don't like giving away my personal power at gunpoint, regardless of who is holding the gun. My Jewish grandparents almost got swept up in the Holocaust. I have an innate fear and distrust of authorities who would point a gun at me and order me out of my home.

It's a very short, slippery slope from allowing police to search my home without a warrant while I'm present... to leaving at gunpoint and then returning... to leaving at gunpoint, being loaded on a truck or a train, and never returning home again...

Where do we draw the line?

radon
04-25-13, 10:38 PM
Would I allow police on a manhunt to go through my home again without a warrant?

Most of my neighbors wouldn't, and neither would I for that matter. Without the rule of law they are just a bunch of gun toting thugs, no better than the gangs, criminals, or terrorist they purport to protect against.

LorenS
04-26-13, 01:09 PM
Given that the younger brother arrived as a 2nd grader - I'm not sure where exactly the fault for 'failure to assimilate' comes from. It also seems quite clear that both brothers were hardly isolated Idaho secessionists; they had girlfriends, went to parties, etc etc.

Look at the family. Mom fled the country due to felony theft charges. Mom seems to be a fanatic. I'm not saying this stuff is conclusive by the way.

One key problem we have is that at every major negative event we get a plethora of snake oil salesmen trying to push their faulty solutions on us.

You are not being hard-hearted, or mean by telling a snake oil salesman to pound sand. Most politicians are snake oil salesmen. The good ideas have been turned into laws centuries ago. There really is not a whole lot of merit to 99.99% of all new laws.

Master Shake
04-26-13, 03:07 PM
Given that the younger brother arrived as a 2nd grader - I'm not sure where exactly the fault for 'failure to assimilate' comes from. It also seems quite clear that both brothers were hardly isolated Idaho secessionists; they had girlfriends, went to parties, etc etc.

On the other hand, the Islamophobia in the US is very real. Equally so are the ongoing deaths of innocent Muslims in other parts of the world.

I'm be very interested to see just what prompted their actions. Maybe what we can do to stop this type of behavior lies outside the US.

"Islamophopbia" is a term coined by the multi-culti left to slander those who tell the truth about the teachings of the prophet Muhammad.

Agree on your blowback comments. However, even if one considers it chickens coming home to roost, that doesn't mean we open up all the windows and doors and invite them in.

Wish the Islamo fanatics were like "Idaho secessionists" (whatver they are or the Amish): people who want to be left alone.

don
05-02-13, 09:16 AM
Paul Craig Roberts . . .

Until the George W. Bush Regime, I never thought that it could happen here. I could not imagine law professors and Department of Justice (sic) officials writing legal memos justifying, in the name of a hyped “war on terror,” the termination of civil rights for United States Citizens. We were the land of the free. The Constitution was our bedrock. Yet, the Constitution and Bill of Rights were easily taken away from the inattentive American people.

The Constitution did not protect native inhabitants and slaves who were not considered part of the American population, but the universal suppression in the US of non-whites’ rights produced in the end the civil rights movement that brought moral awareness of the wrongs and successfully hitched its cause to the founding documents of the country.

Where today is moral awareness as Washington bombs civilian populations around the globe? Where is the moral conscience of the the civil rights movement as the First Black President, the first member of the oppressed class to sit in the Oval Office, validates the Bush Regime’s assertion of the right of the unaccountable executive to ignore habeas corpus and due process? Not satisfied with this crime, Obama asserted the right of the executive branch to murder any citizen suspected, without proof being offered to a court, of undefined “support of terrorism.” Today all Americans have fewer rights than blacks had prior to the Civil Rights Act.

Anything, including a column critical of war and the police state, can be declared to be “in support of terrorism.” As the tyrant Bush put it: “You are with us, or you are against us.”

The print and TV media and many Internet sites got the message: Serve Washington’s agenda, and will you will prosper. Advertisers and the CIA will pump money into your coffers. Challenge us and you will be demonized and could face a military tribunal, indefinite detention, or assassination. Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are being persecuted for telling the truth.

So far, Washington has convinced the public that Washington’s terror is mainly limited to Muslims, who are obligingly demonized by print, TV, and much of the Internet media. However, if Muslim American citizens lack civil liberty, so do all other American citizens. Those who are safe are those who ally with the tyrant and remain subservient.

To ally with the tyrant, a United States citizen must have no moral conscience, no sense of justice, no compassion for the innocent and dispossessed. These are the worst kind of Americans; yet, they are the only ones who can succeed in the present environment.

Every time I write a column that is the truth or the truth as I am able to discover it, instead of hawking the propaganda line, I move up on the list of those who are persona non grata in the Empire.

A writer can find himself demonized and declared a kook simply by reporting findings from distinguished scientists, high-rise architects, structural engineers, first responders, and an international collection of high government officials. Not too long ago a writer or reporter for the Huffington Post discovered to his surprise that Pat Buchanan and I disagreed with all the wars that had been launched to protect us from terrorism. He asked me for an interview, and I agreed.

An hour or so after the interview was posted on the Huffington Post, I received an emergency call or email. He had been criticized for interviewing me, “for giving you a forum when you are a 9/11 sceptic.” He was unsure that it was possible for a Reagan presidential appointee to be a 9/11 sceptic and asked if I was.

I replied that I had reported the findings of scientists, architects, engineers, and the public testimony of first responders, because I thought these were qualified people whose opinions at least ranked equally with the politicians on the 9/11 Commission and the talking heads on Fox “News” and CNN, none of whom could pass a high school test in the laws of physics, much less high-rise architecture and structural engineering.

The Huffington Post writer panicked. Instead of taking down the interview, he felt impelled to assure readers and his boss that he had been deceived. He wrote at the beginning and ending of the interview that he did not know he was interviewing someone about the Iraq War who had given ink to those conspiracy theorists who raised questions about the truthfulness of the US government. He wrote that my views on the wars should be disregarded, because I wrote that scientists, architects, engineers, and first responders provided evidence contrary to the government’s claims.

And there you have it.

The Huffington Post has far more readers than I do, and far more money. There is no limit on the ability of the Huffington Post to tell and sell the lies of the Agenda.

I can remember when I was a Wall Street Journal editor and columnist, a Business Week columnist, a Scripps Howard News Service columnist and appeared regularly in the major mainstream print media and even from time to time on TV talking head programs. Today, the editor or producer who gave me a forum would be fired instantly, and they all know it.

It is discouraging that after so many transparent lies and orchestrations--weapons of mass destruction, al-Qaeda connections, Iranian nukes--the majority of Americans still believe the government. Americans are even buying into the line that Syria is ruled by a brutal dictator whose overthrow justifies Washington’s alliance with its 9/11 enemy, al-Qaeda, in order to overthrow a secular ruler who constrains al-Qaeda.

Washington has come full circle. Its enemy is now its ally. Washington wasted trillions of dollars and countless lives in eleven years of war and constructed a domestic police state all in order to combat al Qaeda with whom Washington is now allied against the Syrian government.

The public’s response to the Boston Marathon Bombing is even more discouraging. Not even King George and his Redcoats could achieve what Homeland Security just pulled off--locking down 100 square miles of Boston and its suburbs with heavily armed troops tramping through citizens’ homes barking harsh orders, all justified by a hunt for one 19-year old suspect. It was the Third Reich’s Gestapo in operation right here in “freedom and democracy” America. Ron Paul is correct that the suspension of civil liberty is a greater threat than the bombing. Note the government’s euphemism for martial law--”shelter-in-place.”

Two brothers have been convicted in the media and by the Obama Regime, including the president’s own words, of a bombing without the public ever being presented with any evidence except anonymous unattributed reports and a film of the alleged brothers walking with backpacks, which were ubiquitous.

I am old enough to remember when it was impermissible for government and media to convict a person prior to the jury’s verdict. Americans once lived in a free country governed by the rule of law in which a person was innocent until proven guilty.

What was the reason or evidence for naming the brothers suspects? Was any reason given, or was the film of the two walking with backpacks simply shown over and over, hour after hour, day after day, with the media reporting that these are the suspects. In other words, was it beat into your brain that they were suspects because there they are in the film? If not, why was the same film shown repeatedly? Fox “News” was still showing the film on April 26, eleven days after the bombing and might still be showing it. Did you experience: “Here are the suspects. See them. They have backpacks. See. We know that they are suspects, because, see, there they are.”

When is the last time the media investigated anything? A good candidate for investigation is the post-bombing rampage the brothers allegedly went on, robbing a 7/11 store (later contradicted by local police), killing a campus policeman, shooting a transit cop, high-jacking a SUV and releasing the owner.

Why would terrorists seeking to escape in order to strike again call attention to themselves in such outlandish ways and release a car-jacked owner to alert the police of the tag number? If the brothers were willing to kill police with gunfire and innocents with bombs, why release the guy whose vehicle they stole so he could inform the police of the license plate and make the brothers’ capture easier? What is the evidence, other than “reports from authorities,” that these events occurred or had any more connection to the brothers than the falsely reported 7/11 robbery that local police disavowed? Why does the US media simply accept whatever government authorities say?

Where is the evidence of a first shoot-out and a second shoot-out? The second shoot- out consisted of the authorities bombarding a motionless youth bleeding from wounds in a boat with multiple volleys of stun grenades and then multiple gunshots. The unconscious 19 year old was unarmed and unable to respond to the boat owner who discovered him. As he lies there, he is shot many times, including through the throat, and is on life support. But the very next day, according to the presstitute media, he is providing hand-written confessions.

Was the purpose of the reports of a murderous rampage to create fear among the population so that they would accept martial law and home invasions by armed troops ordering American citizens out of their homes with hands over their heads on the pretext that they might be harboring the Boston Marathon Bomber?

The videos of the street celebration in which Bostonians thank the police and of the two Boston families, if not scripted by actors, shows Americans who far from opposing the police state welcome it. A father says that he with his daughter in his arms was forced out of his home by troops pointing automatic rifles at their heads, but that he was thankful for the safety the police provided him by violating every civil right that the Constitution gave him. A woman says it was scary but that “the police are just doing their jobs.” Are Americans now so brainwashed that they attribute their safety to the presence of a Gestapo Police State?

Why have detention facilities been built? Why did Homeland Security purchase a billion or more rounds of ammunition? Why does Homeland Security have 2,700 tanks and a para-military force? Why aren’t these questions being investigated?

The US Constitution is the product of 900 years of human efforts to restrain brutal government and to make government subject to law. It only took Bush and Obama eleven years to get rid of it.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

shiny!
05-02-13, 11:51 AM
Paul Craig Roberts . . .

Until the George W. Bush Regime, I never thought that it could happen here. I could not imagine law professors and Department of Justice (sic) officials writing legal memos justifying, in the name of a hyped “war on terror,” the termination of civil rights for United States Citizens. We were the land of the free. The Constitution was our bedrock. Yet, the Constitution and Bill of Rights were easily taken away from the inattentive American people.

The Constitution did not protect native inhabitants and slaves who were not considered part of the American population, but the universal suppression in the US of non-whites’ rights produced in the end the civil rights movement that brought moral awareness of the wrongs and successfully hitched its cause to the founding documents of the country.

Where today is moral awareness as Washington bombs civilian populations around the globe? Where is the moral conscience of the the civil rights movement as the First Black President, the first member of the oppressed class to sit in the Oval Office, validates the Bush Regime’s assertion of the right of the unaccountable executive to ignore habeas corpus and due process? Not satisfied with this crime, Obama asserted the right of the executive branch to murder any citizen suspected, without proof being offered to a court, of undefined “support of terrorism.” Today all Americans have fewer rights than blacks had prior to the Civil Rights Act.

Anything, including a column critical of war and the police state, can be declared to be “in support of terrorism.” As the tyrant Bush put it: “You are with us, or you are against us.”

The print and TV media and many Internet sites got the message: Serve Washington’s agenda, and will you will prosper. Advertisers and the CIA will pump money into your coffers. Challenge us and you will be demonized and could face a military tribunal, indefinite detention, or assassination. Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are being persecuted for telling the truth.

So far, Washington has convinced the public that Washington’s terror is mainly limited to Muslims, who are obligingly demonized by print, TV, and much of the Internet media. However, if Muslim American citizens lack civil liberty, so do all other American citizens. Those who are safe are those who ally with the tyrant and remain subservient.

To ally with the tyrant, a United States citizen must have no moral conscience, no sense of justice, no compassion for the innocent and dispossessed. These are the worst kind of Americans; yet, they are the only ones who can succeed in the present environment.

Every time I write a column that is the truth or the truth as I am able to discover it, instead of hawking the propaganda line, I move up on the list of those who are persona non grata in the Empire.

A writer can find himself demonized and declared a kook simply by reporting findings from distinguished scientists, high-rise architects, structural engineers, first responders, and an international collection of high government officials. Not too long ago a writer or reporter for the Huffington Post discovered to his surprise that Pat Buchanan and I disagreed with all the wars that had been launched to protect us from terrorism. He asked me for an interview, and I agreed.

An hour or so after the interview was posted on the Huffington Post, I received an emergency call or email. He had been criticized for interviewing me, “for giving you a forum when you are a 9/11 sceptic.” He was unsure that it was possible for a Reagan presidential appointee to be a 9/11 sceptic and asked if I was.

I replied that I had reported the findings of scientists, architects, engineers, and the public testimony of first responders, because I thought these were qualified people whose opinions at least ranked equally with the politicians on the 9/11 Commission and the talking heads on Fox “News” and CNN, none of whom could pass a high school test in the laws of physics, much less high-rise architecture and structural engineering.

The Huffington Post writer panicked. Instead of taking down the interview, he felt impelled to assure readers and his boss that he had been deceived. He wrote at the beginning and ending of the interview that he did not know he was interviewing someone about the Iraq War who had given ink to those conspiracy theorists who raised questions about the truthfulness of the US government. He wrote that my views on the wars should be disregarded, because I wrote that scientists, architects, engineers, and first responders provided evidence contrary to the government’s claims.

And there you have it.

The Huffington Post has far more readers than I do, and far more money. There is no limit on the ability of the Huffington Post to tell and sell the lies of the Agenda.

I can remember when I was a Wall Street Journal editor and columnist, a Business Week columnist, a Scripps Howard News Service columnist and appeared regularly in the major mainstream print media and even from time to time on TV talking head programs. Today, the editor or producer who gave me a forum would be fired instantly, and they all know it.

It is discouraging that after so many transparent lies and orchestrations--weapons of mass destruction, al-Qaeda connections, Iranian nukes--the majority of Americans still believe the government. Americans are even buying into the line that Syria is ruled by a brutal dictator whose overthrow justifies Washington’s alliance with its 9/11 enemy, al-Qaeda, in order to overthrow a secular ruler who constrains al-Qaeda.

Washington has come full circle. Its enemy is now its ally. Washington wasted trillions of dollars and countless lives in eleven years of war and constructed a domestic police state all in order to combat al Qaeda with whom Washington is now allied against the Syrian government.

The public’s response to the Boston Marathon Bombing is even more discouraging. Not even King George and his Redcoats could achieve what Homeland Security just pulled off--locking down 100 square miles of Boston and its suburbs with heavily armed troops tramping through citizens’ homes barking harsh orders, all justified by a hunt for one 19-year old suspect. It was the Third Reich’s Gestapo in operation right here in “freedom and democracy” America. Ron Paul is correct that the suspension of civil liberty is a greater threat than the bombing. Note the government’s euphemism for martial law--”shelter-in-place.”

Two brothers have been convicted in the media and by the Obama Regime, including the president’s own words, of a bombing without the public ever being presented with any evidence except anonymous unattributed reports and a film of the alleged brothers walking with backpacks, which were ubiquitous.

I am old enough to remember when it was impermissible for government and media to convict a person prior to the jury’s verdict. Americans once lived in a free country governed by the rule of law in which a person was innocent until proven guilty.

What was the reason or evidence for naming the brothers suspects? Was any reason given, or was the film of the two walking with backpacks simply shown over and over, hour after hour, day after day, with the media reporting that these are the suspects. In other words, was it beat into your brain that they were suspects because there they are in the film? If not, why was the same film shown repeatedly? Fox “News” was still showing the film on April 26, eleven days after the bombing and might still be showing it. Did you experience: “Here are the suspects. See them. They have backpacks. See. We know that they are suspects, because, see, there they are.”

When is the last time the media investigated anything? A good candidate for investigation is the post-bombing rampage the brothers allegedly went on, robbing a 7/11 store (later contradicted by local police), killing a campus policeman, shooting a transit cop, high-jacking a SUV and releasing the owner.

Why would terrorists seeking to escape in order to strike again call attention to themselves in such outlandish ways and release a car-jacked owner to alert the police of the tag number? If the brothers were willing to kill police with gunfire and innocents with bombs, why release the guy whose vehicle they stole so he could inform the police of the license plate and make the brothers’ capture easier? What is the evidence, other than “reports from authorities,” that these events occurred or had any more connection to the brothers than the falsely reported 7/11 robbery that local police disavowed? Why does the US media simply accept whatever government authorities say?

Where is the evidence of a first shoot-out and a second shoot-out? The second shoot- out consisted of the authorities bombarding a motionless youth bleeding from wounds in a boat with multiple volleys of stun grenades and then multiple gunshots. The unconscious 19 year old was unarmed and unable to respond to the boat owner who discovered him. As he lies there, he is shot many times, including through the throat, and is on life support. But the very next day, according to the presstitute media, he is providing hand-written confessions.

Was the purpose of the reports of a murderous rampage to create fear among the population so that they would accept martial law and home invasions by armed troops ordering American citizens out of their homes with hands over their heads on the pretext that they might be harboring the Boston Marathon Bomber?

The videos of the street celebration in which Bostonians thank the police and of the two Boston families, if not scripted by actors, shows Americans who far from opposing the police state welcome it. A father says that he with his daughter in his arms was forced out of his home by troops pointing automatic rifles at their heads, but that he was thankful for the safety the police provided him by violating every civil right that the Constitution gave him. A woman says it was scary but that “the police are just doing their jobs.” Are Americans now so brainwashed that they attribute their safety to the presence of a Gestapo Police State?

Why have detention facilities been built? Why did Homeland Security purchase a billion or more rounds of ammunition? Why does Homeland Security have 2,700 tanks and a para-military force? Why aren’t these questions being investigated?

The US Constitution is the product of 900 years of human efforts to restrain brutal government and to make government subject to law. It only took Bush and Obama eleven years to get rid of it.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

+1. Unfortunately he will be pilloried for even suggesting that we are witnessing propaganda theater designed to get us to willingly support the theft of our civil rights.

Each of us has a threshold of what we can accept of reality. Beyond that line we cling to illusions, hopes, faith, whatever it takes to get us through the day without facing truths too painful to contemplate. We cling to our denial, and woe to the kid who cries out that the Emperor has no clothes. He's ridiculed, belittled, called a conspiracy theorist, a truther, a nut job. Anybody who thinks he might have a point has to think it in the private confines of their own mind, lest he or she be also ridiculed. People are vicious when their comfort zone of denial is challenged, and nobody wants to be ostracized.

Question any of the accepted, politically correct, government-stamp-of-approval stories about Waco and the Branch Davidians, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Aurora CO, Sandy Hook, and suddenly you risk all the credibility and reputation you've spent a lifetime building. Bush said it: They're either with us or against us.

All my life I've read history and wondered why people let their governments commit such atrocities. Why did the Germans allow the Holocaust to happen? Why did the Russians and the Chinese allow the Communists to strip them of all their civil rights? And now I know. They weren't being forced agains their will. Most of them actually believed it was the right way to act, the right thing to do.

That's what good propaganda does.

don
05-02-13, 12:57 PM
That's what good propaganda does.

and fear, Shiny, and fear . . .

(just think how complacent Americans would be if a tiny sliver of the critical intelligencia were held in Homeland Security detention centers, as happened in Germany immediately after the Reichstag fire)

shiny!
05-02-13, 02:48 PM
and fear, Shiny, and fear . . .

(just think how complacent Americans would be if a tiny sliver of the critical intelligencia were held in Homeland Security detention centers, as happened in Germany immediately after the Reichstag fire)


Yep.

The bad guys won, most people are happy as long as they have their bread and circuses, and the rest of us can shout from the rooftops (or grouse in our forums) but it won't change anything. Voting won't help, and civil disobedience is no longer possible.

don
05-02-13, 04:35 PM
Yep.

The bad guys won, most people are happy as long as they have their bread and circuses, and the rest of us can shout from the rooftops (or grouse in our forums) but it won't change anything. Voting won't help, and civil disobedience is no longer possible.

Plenty of people are unhappy - check out the suicide article I just posted - but they're also afraid. The German factory workers were unhappy early, with the Nazi's national union supplanting the existing ones. (guess who they favored) The German middleclass bought the early victories. From Barbarrosa on it was all downhill for them. And, of course, the camps were a friendly reminder that it just wasn't worth bitching out loud about in public.

BadJuju
05-02-13, 05:32 PM
I just know that if such a thing occurred here, I'm fucked because of all the shit I post online that they probably already have stored in databases somewhere. That's alright. I have a policy of not allowing myself to be taken alive and won't hesitate to exercise that to full effect should worse come to worst.

c1ue
05-04-13, 12:02 PM
"Islamophopbia" is a term coined by the multi-culti left to slander those who tell the truth about the teachings of the prophet Muhammad.

Sorry, but the demonization of Islam is just as wrongheaded as similar demonizations of Catholics, of Mormons, of <insert religion here>.

The reality is that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are not violent in any way.

Ultimately the reason some Muslims engage in violence is due to what their societies back home are pushing them towards.

I'll note yet again that the numbers of foreign nationals involved in 'terrorism' on US soil remains skewed toward Saudis, as opposed to the various member of the 'Axis of Evil'. Equally so we see, all the time, terror attacks by 'true blue' Americans: mass shootings, McVeigh, etc etc.

Raz
05-04-13, 11:16 PM
...<insert here="" religion="">.The reality is that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are not violent in any way. ...

The majority of Muslims worldwide may not practice violence, but their prophet most certainly did.

Islam was spread by violent conquest - not by young men in white shirts knocking on doors and asking those who answered if they have ever considered the Koran.
The only nation that became Muslim due to conventional missionary activity is Indonesia. The rest were conquered and forced to submit.


...Utimately the reason some Muslims engage in violence is due to what their societies back home are pushing them towards.

It would seem that there's some truth to this as most come from failed states like Pakistan or Yemen, or Saudi Arabia where there's little or no economic opportunity.
But it is also impossible to overlook the Wahabist teachers who actually believe that those who martyr themselves in Jihad will be certain of heaven.

This will continue as long as the parents and Imams hate others more than they love their own children.
</insert>

Raz
05-05-13, 10:37 AM
...
On the other hand, the Islamophobia in the US is very real.

I certainly hope so.

It's evidence of (a) increasing knowledge of Islamic teachings and the treatment of other faith adherents in Islamic countries, and (b) common sense trumping political correctness.

c1ue
05-05-13, 02:40 PM
I certainly hope so.

It's evidence of (a) increasing knowledge of Islamic teachings and the treatment of other faith adherents in Islamic countries, and (b) common sense trumping political correctness.

We've gone around the bend several times; I disagree with both your and Master Shake's views on this subject.

Islam is no more a unified religion than Christianity is. There are moderate, liberal, conservative, and radical (both ends) Muslims.

To lump all of them into Salafism is precisely to encourage the spread of that radicalized version in a Gresham's dynamic. Or a concrete example: Mao's famous:


Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent</pre>which many have translated to: "the worse, the better"

reggie
05-05-13, 04:19 PM
I certainly hope so.

It's evidence of (a) increasing knowledge of Islamic teachings and the treatment of other faith adherents in Islamic countries, and (b) common sense trumping political correctness.s



Huh, what about Carter/Brzezinski's funding of the Mujahideen PRIOR to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Are we just going to conveniently ignore the covert creation of this supposed-islamic terror complex in order to fit the American propaganda model? When is the American public going to grow out of its utterly stupid worldview spoon fed to them on a super sophisticated media behemoth?

The entire frame for this discussion is based upon fabrication.

Raz
05-05-13, 07:01 PM
We've gone around the bend several times; I disagree with both your and Master Shake's views on this subject.

Yes we have. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.



Islam is no more a unified religion than Christianity is. There are moderate, liberal, conservative, and radical (both ends) Muslims.

"Moderate" Muslims are, I suppose, the tens and hundreds of thousands who have taken to the streets to protest the terror and murder of 9/11, the Boston Bombings, the Bali Bombings, as well as the slaughter of other Muslims, ... oh wait! ....

Liberal Muslims who ignore the plain, obvious meaning of the Koran and Haadith are not "liberal", they are apostate. Like pro-choice "christians"; there is no such thing.


To lump all of them into Salafism is precisely to encourage the spread of that radicalized version in a Gresham's dynamic. Or a concrete example: Mao's famous:

which many have translated to: "the worse, the better"

It is the arrogant, Neocon American Empire that breeds these terrorists, not the critiqing of Islam. Terror is the defense afforded the outraged weak. Some of this has clearly been brought upon us by the actions of our government.

Raz
05-05-13, 07:15 PM
Huh, what about Carter/Brzezinski's funding of the Mujahideen PRIOR to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Are we just going to conveniently ignore the covert creation of this supposed-islamic terror complex in order to fit the American propaganda model? When is the American public going to grow out of its utterly stupid worldview spoon fed to them on a super sophisticated media behemoth?

The entire frame for this discussion is based upon fabrication.

I have no intention of attempting debate with you since you see a world of total fabrication. I don't have time to learn another vocabulary and entirely new definitions of meaning.

While you will get no disagreement from me concerning the American Empire, which I hate, that subject does NOTHING to alter the fundamentaly violent nature of Islam. It was NOT spead by unarmed missionaries and the claims of Al-Quaida are little different than those of the Barbary Corsairs face by Jefferson and Adams.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and Joh Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:


It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

radon
05-05-13, 07:43 PM
Liberal Muslims who ignore the plain, obvious meaning of the Koran and Haadith are not "liberal", they are apostate.


You could go even farther and say that their tacit acquiescence makes them accomplices. Who else but their community put the idea in their head that killing kafirs is somehow gods work.



It is the arrogant, Neocon American Empire that breeds these terrorists, not the critiqing of Islam. Terror is the defense afforded the outraged weak. Some of this has clearly been brought upon us by the actions of our government.

You can't even draw a cartoon of Muhammad without getting death threats. I think a bit of critiquing would be a step in the right direction. Not getting your head cut off for making a joke about Islam would go a long way toward showing the world that Muslims have learned to play nice with others.

astonas
05-05-13, 09:06 PM
Liberal Muslims who ignore the plain, obvious meaning of the Koran and Haadith are not "liberal", they are apostate. Like pro-choice "christians"; there is no such thing.

Is it fair to assert one's own categorization of religions onto others, asserting that people who believe themselves to be Muslim are not, because they do not fit one's own (non-muslim) definition of the term? Surely one who practices a religion should have some say in how their faith is labelled?

The alternative seems fundamentally fraught. Even the rift between Eastern and Western Christianity would imply that there could never be a universally agreed upon definition of "Christian" for example. I'm not sure that denying people's ability to self-label results in anything but pointless and unnecessary conflict, at the expense of all the faiths that are being professed. Numerous wars in Christiandom and the Islamic world have been fought over such things, and I think it would be a hard argument to make that the world is a better place for having had such wars.

Given this, I'm curious what the justification could be for universal labels, applied by those not in the faith itself? That seems a further complication yet, even beyond the demand for universal labels within religions.


It is the arrogant, Neocon American Empire that breeds these terrorists, not the critiqing of Islam. Terror is the defense afforded the outraged weak. Some of this has clearly been brought upon us by the actions of our government.

I think you've hit on a key point here. Whenever people are placed in a circumstance in which they are systematically doomed to be weak or exploited, that creates inevitable tension. The tighter the bonds of servitude, the deeper the bow of submission, the greater the desire to explode out of those positions violently.

Forced into a corner, any ideology can be perverted into a manual for terror, and there have been domestic self-identified Christians who have resorted to terror as well. I'm sure there is an argument to be made that some religions lend themselves to that more easily than others (and I'm pretty sure you've made that before) but I think the fact that the vast majority of people who identify themselves as Muslims aren't blowing things up is at least worth acknowledging in the interest of fairness, as is the fact that most people who self-identify as Christians aren't either.

Raz
05-06-13, 02:01 AM
Is it fair to assert one's own categorization of religions onto others, asserting that people who believe themselves to be Muslim are not, because they do not fit one's own (non-muslim) definition of the term? Surely one who practices a religion should have some say in how their faith is labelled?

So certain "muslims" can reword and redefine the Shahada, ignore all traditional interpretation of their holy books in plain disagreement with the overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars and jurists of the past 1,400+ years, and yet because they call themselves Muslims I'm suppose to accept that they are indeed, Muslims?

Because Jeffrey Dahmer claimed to have an "eating disorder", and because I've never eaten human flesh, am I then estopped from labeling him a cannibal?



The alternative seems fundamentally fraught. Even the rift between Eastern and Western Christianity would imply that there could never be a universally agreed upon definition of "Christian" for example. I'm not sure that denying people's ability to self-label results in anything but pointless and unnecessary conflict, at the expense of all the faiths that are being professed. Numerous wars in Christiandom and the Islamic world have been fought over such things, and I think it would be a hard argument to make that the world is a better place for having had such wars.

If one rejects the Nicene Creed, and rejects the principles laid out in the Commonitorium of St. Vincent of Lerin, denies the Incarnation, denies the clear, unambiguous moral prohibition against procured abortion that stood from the very birth of the Church in 30 A.D. until the Twentieth Century,
then one is not only a heretic (the word literally means: "pro-choice") but an apostate as well, specifically as regards the Incarnation.

Denying the truth by allowing frauds to redefine it is cowardice in the face of conflict where one ignores the fact that aforesaid conflict is already occuring regardless.



Given this, I'm curious what the justification could be for universal labels, applied by those not in the faith itself?

How about applying them for the sake of clarity and truth in the face of political correctness.

Modern Western ideas of inclusion, tolerance, mutual respect, and compromise are foreign to the MENA Islamic world. It should be obvious when observing the persecution of the Christians and other religious minorities of the area that there is no real respect for freedom of worship for non-muslims.

As to me being a non-muslim yet applying labels: as Bob Dylan said: "You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".


PS. I'm through discussing this subject here. Rant-and-Rave is the appropriate forum for such.

Chris Coles
05-06-13, 05:19 AM
PS. I'm through discussing this subject here. Rant-and-Rave is the appropriate forum for such.


Sorry to see you go Raz, but as I see it there is no Rant and Rave here; this is a welcome discussion upon the underlying principles of why there has been a terrorist bombing in Boston.

My input is different in that Christmas before last I had promised, (in public), to provide a short paper to my local Vicar on why I have no problem with religion, but do have a problem with the three letter word GOD.

Earlier this year, I was granted a free pass to attend the 12th Islamic Finance Summit in London. I have to say, I went with some trepidation as I do not agree, (I must add in the same way as Raz), with many of the perceived aspects of what one calls the Muslim religion. However, attendance was a revelation in more ways than one.

My childhood was marked with frequent religious dissent. My father became a Roman Catholic in the 1930's and by the time I was born, 1944, he had completely lost his way and there were frequent rows and angst thereafter. So arriving amongst a group of Islamic Scholars debating the structure of an Sukuk for Egypt, brought me right back to where I had been in my childhood. Back then I had discovered that the best way was always to argue your case; yes, strongly, but without violence.

So having arrived into a very strange setting in a large London hotel amongst a group none of which I had ever met before gave me an impression that today has a deep meaning for the future. As is my way, almost immediately, I stood up to debate with the conference; asking questions related to what they were debating. What was truly remarkable was that at the first interval, I was surrounded by Islamic scholars, business card in hand, wanting to further the discussion.

There were ~ six hundred delegates with only three of us asking questions.

So, the first point to make is that Islam has taught the majority never to raise any objections; silence must be the first rule for survival.

The second point being that the Islamic scholars are, (I was about to say; desperate), shall we say, very keen to hear debate and further it.

It was as though I was back home again as a child watching fervent religious debate; where in fact the underlying problem was a need to be able to change direction without also being seen as an unbeliever.

On another aspect; their attitude to the need for ethics and morality, service to the community in banking and finance is very very attractive; when seen against the normal attitude of the western banking system.

My take is that Islam needs open debate to allow it to move on from what is a medieval set of rules that have no place in a modern world. To give an example of why I say that, during the second day we were presented with eight Islamic scholars debating the wording of the Sukuk for Egypt. One of them kept repeating:

"If we allow that change, the next thing you know the women will want to not wear the Hijab, others will not want to pray three times a day, etc. etc....."

More than anything I saw or heard, that repeated outburst told me that they were in a deep state of flux with even the basic principles of Islam being repeatedly questioned from within Islam.

My own input was sufficient that I was introduced to what was one of the most senior figures at the conference over dinner the second day. (He was brought to my table for me to meet him). Again, I felt that I had made some good initial friendships with the scholars who came across to me as open minded and very civilised.

But that brought me right back to the promise made regarding the short paper and I felt that it was important to try and set out my own views; both to fulfil the earlier promise; but also to let all these scholars know my own viewpoint; so I sat down and wrote the following paper; A Philosophical Viewpoint, attached as a PDF.

I have to add that following the distribution of the paper, I have had no further direct contact with any of the Islamic scholars....... yet!

lakedaemonian
05-06-13, 03:08 PM
I reckon the threat from Militant Islam parallels the threat from Communism.

A good few Communist leaders and their adherents WERE out to get us.

Same for Militant Islamists and adherents today.

But where it gets confusing and complex with the depth and breadth of Militant Islam is the same confusion and complexity we faced with Communism.

While the Soviet Union and China opposed the US/West in Vietnam and Rhodesia as two examples, around the same time the SU and China were fighting very very seriously along their vast border as well as battling for influence in Zimbabwe(China won) as well as China and Vietnam fighting a border war post Vietnam War.

There IS a Militant Islam battle against the west just as there was with Communism.

But there was no unified Communist war against the west, just as there is not real unity in Militant Islam battling against the west.

Exemplified by Shia Iran battling Sunni Saudi as well as the recent border skirmishes between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Here in Afghanistan hatred directed against Muslim Pakistan in several orders of magnitude greater than anything I've seen directed against the infidel US/west.

The world was not black and white then with the real versus perceived threat from Communism just as it isn't today with the real versus perceived threat posed by Militant Islam.

Some Communist were out to get us as well as other Communists. Just as some Militant Islamists are out to get us and other Islamists.

The average Communist, Muslim, and customer of semi functioning crony Capitalism are for the most part focused on meeting Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I think it's largely the minorities at the top of the curve influencing and controlling those at the bottom of the curve that helps create these boogyman perceptions.

lakedaemonian
05-06-13, 03:15 PM
I've been privy to some feedback from some mid to high level discussions on missed opportunities regarding fairly insignificant funding for Islamic centres of academic gravity that could have mitigated effects of Militant Islam in some places by shaping the message in a moderate direction.

The opportunity was missed, but appears it has not gone unnoticed and efforts may be underway to start the long(er) road back in a moderate direction.

c1ue
05-06-13, 04:40 PM
Yes we have. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

That's funny - I feel the same way.


"Moderate" Muslims are, I suppose, the tens and hundreds of thousands who have taken to the streets to protest the terror and murder of 9/11, the Boston Bombings, the Bali Bombings, as well as the slaughter of other Muslims, ... oh wait! ....

Liberal Muslims who ignore the plain, obvious meaning of the Koran and Haadith are not "liberal", they are apostate. Like pro-choice "christians"; there is no such thing.

Whoa - watch out, your Inquisition colors are showing.

My view: given that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world - that only a few tens or hundreds of thousands still constitute a tiny minority. And of course, you ignore that there also have been Christian (or simply American) individuals and mobs who demonstrate against Islam.

Hardly a good example.

All I can say is someone Catholic pointing fingers at the violence of other religions - hypocritical to the extreme.

Raz
05-06-13, 05:16 PM
All I can say is someone Catholic pointing fingers at the violence of other religions - hypocritical to the extreme.

I've done my best to maintain civility with you, c1ue, but you're stretching me to the breaking point.
Your knowledge and prior maintenance of perspicuity I greatly admired and on at least one occasion told you so.

I don't know what's happened to you. You now go out of your way to insult others when you run out of facts.

I am not Roman Catholic and I believe you know that; I've made that clear many times over the past five years.
I'm Eastern Orthodox - and we know as do few others the horrors visited upon other Christians by the Papists. Their the Inquisitionistas - not us.

You never answered my careful, comprehensive rebuttal to all of your ignorance-based insults on this thread:
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/23227-Syria-becoming-a-major-disaster-and-potential-terrorist-hotbed?p=236537#post236537

You have a lot of nerve and a very selective memory to call me a hypocrite, sir, combined with an apparent overdose of political correctness.

c1ue
05-06-13, 10:19 PM
I've done my best to maintain civility with you, c1ue, but you're stretching me to the breaking point.
Your knowledge and prior maintenance of perspicuity I greatly admired and on at least one occasion told you so.

I don't know what's happened to you. You now go out of your way to insult others when you run out of facts.

Any insult you perceive - my apologies.

However, your ongoing insistence in presuming to judge members of religions other than your own, that is quite amazing.


I am not Roman Catholic and I believe you know that; I've made that clear many times over the past five years.
I'm Eastern Orthodox - and we know as do few others the horrors visited upon other Christians by the Papists. Their the Inquisitionistas - not us.

Indeed I do. And it was deliberate - do you perhaps see now why your insistence on lumping all Muslims under one banner is thoroughly insulting and repugnant?



You never answered my careful, comprehensive rebuttal to all of your ignorance-based insults on this thread:
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...537#post236537 (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/23227-Syria-becoming-a-major-disaster-and-potential-terrorist-hotbed?p=236537#post236537)

Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?

Over and over again, you choose to focus on specific comments and practices of Islam which you use to justify your prejudice. There is no religion on Earth which has not been used to violent ends by some society - this includes both Christianity and Islam as well as Buddhism.

The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.

radon
05-06-13, 10:41 PM
Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?


To be fair I doubt you have read it in Arabic either, and if he was living in a Muslim society he would be unable to criticize it..



The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.
The Quran explicitly divides the world into two groups, one of believers and the others with different rules applied to each. It isn't just a matter of misinterpretation. The practical difference is that I can make fun of Jesus and not worry about getting stabbed to death. Try saying anything derogatory about Muhammad or even forgetting the obligatorily PBUH in a Muslim society and see where it gets you.

Raz
05-06-13, 11:58 PM
Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?

Do you personally know any Christians who have lived in Egypt, Yemen or Pakistan? How about Buddhist who've lived in those countries? I do, so by your logic I'm entitled to relate not only their experiences but the historical record as well - a record you're apparently not fond of, other than spouting meaningless jingoes about "every religion", "violence everywhere in the Bible", etc.


Over and over again, you choose to focus on specific comments and practices of Islam which you use to justify your prejudice. There is no religion on Earth which has not been used to violent ends by some society - this includes both Christianity and Islam as well as Buddhism.

I focussed on the clear historical record of the spread of Islam and the clear passages in the Koran and Hadith as read and interpreted by Muslin Clerics and Jurists from antiquity forward; not the revisionist, politically correct nonsense spouted by you, sir.

Would you please point out to me clear, historical evidence that Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism or practically any other "ism" has been spread over large areas of this world (as in continental or more than one continenent) by the armed force of military conquest and then installed by the deliberate, determined subjugation of those inhabitants, forcing it upon them?

How many passages in the Old Testament, New Testament, the Hindu Vedas, the Guru Granth and Adi Granth, the Tao Te Ching or the Buddhist texts command and obligate their adherents to spread their faith throughout the entire world by conquest if proselitizing and persuasion fails?


The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.

You posted a pile of copied and pasted, innacurate, ignorant drivel which I completely, thoroughly and totally demolished. You insulted me and then proved nothing.

Your "arguments" were off topic and senseless; the issue under discussion was not violence or violent episodes, but whether Islam was fundamentally different than other religions as being commanded to spread their faith throughout the world by force and conquest if necessary. You never produced one single piece of valid, historical, theological evidence to disprove my position. Not one! Your "arguments" were uninformed, innacurate, evasive, emotional and shallow to an extreme.

You, sir, know practically nothing of which you claim to speak. Anyone who wishes can take the hyperlink below and satisfy themselves as to what really transpired.

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/showthread.php?p=236537#poststop

reggie
05-07-13, 12:37 AM
I have no intention of attempting debate with you since you see a world of total fabrication. I don't have time to learn another vocabulary and entirely new definitions of meaning.

While you will get no disagreement from me concerning the American Empire, which I hate, that subject does NOTHING to alter the fundamentaly violent nature of Islam. It was NOT spead by unarmed missionaries and the claims of Al-Quaida are little different than those of the Barbary Corsairs face by Jefferson and Adams.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and Joh Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:


It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
Well, then continue to allow others to pull the strings of your worldview. I have no time for the type of discussion and perspective on exhibit in this thread.

c1ue
05-07-13, 02:42 PM
To be fair I doubt you have read it in Arabic either, and if he was living in a Muslim society he would be unable to criticize it..

I'm not the one saying he knows Islam so well he can criticize the entire religion and all its practitioners.


The Quran explicitly divides the world into two groups, one of believers and the others with different rules applied to each. It isn't just a matter of misinterpretation. The practical difference is that I can make fun of Jesus and not worry about getting stabbed to death. Try saying anything derogatory about Muhammad or even forgetting the obligatorily PBUH in a Muslim society and see where it gets you.

The Bible does the same thing.

The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans.

As for Muhammad or whatever - there are any number of Muslim societies in which what you say is untrue. Malaysia and most of Southeast Asia, for example.


Do you personally know any Christians who have lived in Egypt, Yemen or Pakistan? How about Buddhist who've lived in those countries? I do, so by your logic I'm entitled to relate not only their experiences but the historical record as well - a record you're apparently not fond of, other than spouting meaningless jingoes about "every religion", "violence everywhere in the Bible", etc.

Yes, I do actually.

By my logic, I've seen a lot more of the world, the people in it, and the religions as practiced in many places than most people.

Have you?


Would you please point out to me clear, historical evidence that Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism or practically any other "ism" has been spread over large areas of this world (as in continental or more than one continenent) by the armed force of military conquest and then installed by the deliberate, determined subjugation of those inhabitants, forcing it upon them?

Well, that's a long list. But I'll provide just a few examples to show that you really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Buddhism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songts%C3%A4n_Gampo

This individual is the one who introduced Buddhism into Tibet - he also made Tibet the center of an empire. Conversion by the sword.

Hinduism: Really? This culture and religion has an actual warrior caste. And you want to tell me they're all about peace? The Rig Veda is about a gigantic battle between 10 kings; the details are all suspect but the battle unquestionably took place. If you want a more concrete example: how about the forcible expulsion of millions of Muslims from India, or better yet look up 'hindu attack on sikh' on Google and see what the nets you (and vice versa).

Judaism, Christianity: Really? You ignore what you're own bible says? All the various tribes conquered, smitten by the Lord, women enslaved, land taken over, etc etc? The Crusades? The Inquisition? The ongoing Palestinian captivity?

Sikh: The Sikh's also had their empire period. Sure, they were peaceful in the beginning, but that had all faded into pure power play by the 17th century. That empire was undermined by the British. Plus the ongoing violence: 'sikh attack on hindu', 'sikh attack on christian', etc.

Zoroastrianism: Again, really? Persia saw a succession of empires. Zoroastrianism was the state religion for most of them, thus being in place over Jews, pagans, Christians - of all stripes, Buddhists, and even Muslims later on. Look up Shapur the Great.

Taoism: Besides the Tang practice of 'converting' animist and local deities into the Tao pantheon (similar to the Roman practice of incorporating conquered people's gods), various Taoist sects were deeply involved in Chinese politics - to the point of unseating emperors and burning opposing sects' religious documents. Again hardly a prime example of peace.

shiny!
05-07-13, 05:25 PM
(My apologies for the formatting problem. For some reason I can't separate paragraphs) c1ue, you are just WRONG on several counts.
The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans. But they try to kill us just the same. Being a "written" religion didn't prevent the Muslims from trying to exterminate the Sikhs in India during the Mughal Empire. Sikhs are not only forbidden to force conversion on other people, we don't even proselytize because we consider it disrespectful to tell someone that their religion is inferior and they should change. Sikhs are sworn to defend people of other faiths who are being persecuted on account of their religion. This is why Sikhs went to war against the Mughal Empire, because the Hindus asked the Sikhs to intercede on their behalf as the Muslims were slaughtering them. Sikh attack on Hindu or Christian? Perhaps as a personal one-on-one fight, but never as an organized action sanctioned by Sikh authorities. In the months leading up to Operation Bluestar, Indira Gandhi's government designated every fistfight involving a Sikh as an act of terrorism. This they did to give them justification for Operation Bluestar to massacre the Sikhs of the Punjab. Amnesty International designated Operation Bluestar as being equivalent to the Holocaust of the Jews. Operation Bluestar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

astonas
05-07-13, 05:46 PM
(My apologies for the formatting problem. For some reason I can't separate paragraphs) c1ue, you are just WRONG on several counts. But they try to kill us just the same. Being a "written" religion didn't prevent the Muslims from trying to exterminate the Sikhs in India during the Mughal Empire. Sikhs are not only forbidden to force conversion on other people, we don't even proselytize because we consider it disrespectful to tell someone that their religion is inferior and they should change. Sikhs are sworn to defend people of other faiths who are being persecuted on account of their religion. This is why Sikhs went to war against the Mughal Empire, because the Hindus asked the Sikhs to intercede on their behalf as the Muslims were slaughtering them. Sikh attack on Hindu or Christian? Perhaps as a personal one-on-one fight, but never as an organized action sanctioned by Sikh authorities. In the months leading up to Operation Bluestar, Indira Gandhi's government designated every fistfight involving a Sikh as an act of terrorism. This they did to give them justification for Operation Bluestar to massacre the Sikhs of the Punjab. Amnesty International designated Operation Bluestar as being equivalent to the Holocaust of the Jews. Operation Bluestar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

Thank you for sharing this story, Shiny. I hadn't been aware of this piece of history. I have gained new respect for the Sikh religion.

jk
05-07-13, 09:44 PM
you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.

radon
05-07-13, 11:36 PM
you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIB6JGwADOo

Raz
05-08-13, 01:57 AM
I'm not the one saying he knows Islam so well he can criticize the entire religion and all its practitioners.



The Bible does the same thing.

The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans.

As for Muhammad or whatever - there are any number of Muslim societies in which what you say is untrue. Malaysia and most of Southeast Asia, for example.



Yes, I do actually.

By my logic, I've seen a lot more of the world, the people in it, and the religions as practiced in many places than most people.

Have you?



Well, that's a long list. But I'll provide just a few examples to show that you really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Buddhism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songtsän_Gampo

This individual is the one who introduced Buddhism into Tibet - he also made Tibet the center of an empire. Conversion by the sword.

Hinduism: Really? This culture and religion has an actual warrior caste. And you want to tell me they're all about peace? The Rig Veda is about a gigantic battle between 10 kings; the details are all suspect but the battle unquestionably took place. If you want a more concrete example: how about the forcible expulsion of millions of Muslims from India, or better yet look up 'hindu attack on sikh' on Google and see what the nets you (and vice versa).

Judaism, Christianity: Really? You ignore what you're own bible says? All the various tribes conquered, smitten by the Lord, women enslaved, land taken over, etc etc? The Crusades? The Inquisition? The ongoing Palestinian captivity?

Sikh: The Sikh's also had their empire period. Sure, they were peaceful in the beginning, but that had all faded into pure power play by the 17th century. That empire was undermined by the British. Plus the ongoing violence: 'sikh attack on hindu', 'sikh attack on christian', etc.

Zoroastrianism: Again, really? Persia saw a succession of empires. Zoroastrianism was the state religion for most of them, thus being in place over Jews, pagans, Christians - of all stripes, Buddhists, and even Muslims later on. Look up Shapur the Great.

Taoism: Besides the Tang practice of 'converting' animist and local deities into the Tao pantheon (similar to the Roman practice of incorporating conquered people's gods), various Taoist sects were deeply involved in Chinese politics - to the point of unseating emperors and burning opposing sects' religious documents. Again hardly a prime example of peace.

You did NOT answer the question - you continuously evade it.

It doesn't matter what any individual or group of Taoists or Sikhs or Christians or Jews or Buddhists have done, nor does it matter what any Emperor of the Persians or Hindu King or Pope of Rome has done; what matters is whether or not they adhered to and followed the precepts and commandments of the very faith they claimed to hold, and whether or not that faith commanded them to CONVERT THE ENTIRE WORLD BY ARMED FORCE if sincerely offered persuasion failed.

That is now and always was the point of discussion. I never said that every individual Muslim on this earth was an evil, murdering fanatic.
I said that their faith commanded them to subvert and conquer the entire world if necessary to establish Dar al-Islam everywhere.

Your examples are bogus. Citing the Crusades is totally disingenuous since they were a response to the persecution of Christians in the Holy Land by Muslims; but even if they occured without provocation it still wouldn't matter because Christ NEVER commanded or condoned such. He clearly said that His Kingdom was "not of this world".

No Sikhs or Hindus or Taoists or Buddhists have invaded other countries thousands and thousands of miles from the birthplace of their faith to fulfill a command of their founder to spread their religion by force if persuasion failed, in perpetuity.

You continue to be wrong.

I carefully and completely answered your uninformed assertions and comparisons here: http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/23227-Syria-becoming-a-major-disaster-and-potential-terrorist-hotbed?p=236537#post236537

You didn't respond, even after I carefully - and respectfully - explained why you were wrong.
You continue here on another thread to evade and insult because I won't buy into the politically correct view of Islam.

Again, anyone who wishes may take the hyperlink above and decide for themselves which of the two of us knows "what they are talking about".

Chris Coles
05-08-13, 04:19 AM
you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.

Surely the whole concept of a debate is to permit everyone to express their viewpoint. No one wins, but everyone learns a little more than they knew beforehand. A little like dropping a pebble into a still pool of water; over time the ripples subside.

Here in the UK we say something like; I may deeply disagree with what you may say; but I will defend with every bone in my body, your right to the freedom to express your opinion.

I do not support personal attacks; and it is true we have seen some here. May we hope that the process of such debate serves to pour oil on turbulent waters.

c1ue
05-08-13, 12:44 PM
It doesn't matter what any individual or group of Taoists or Sikhs or Christians or Jews or Buddhists have done, nor does it matter what any Emperor of the Persians or Hindu King or Pope of Rome has done; what matters is whether or not they adhered to and followed the precepts and commandments of the very faith they claimed to hold, and whether or not that faith commanded them to CONVERT THE ENTIRE WORLD BY ARMED FORCE if sincerely offered persuasion failed.


You're going to have to clarify, because the precepts of every faith have conflicting agendas.

If we take the Koran and the Bible both to be the unquestionable blueprints for Islam and Christianity, respectively, we can find passages in either to justify whatever is desired - either peace or war.

You keep trying to say the Koran is unique in its violence towards unbelievers - and keep refusing to admit the Bible also contains such passages. Previous examples were ignored, here are yet more:

Infanticide as acceptable
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Swords, those notable instruments of peace
[Jesus] said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

Killing unbelievers
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Black Hawk Down and Operation Iraqi Freedom, all in one
You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist.

Dominion over other nations
You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all.

Sure, there are passages in the Bible referring to peace, love thy neighbor, etc - but then again, there are passage in the Koran as well.

But of course, you'll then say that Jesus never said such things. The New Testament.

Matthew

<tbody>
3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

</tbody>


More Matthew: unreceptive audiences get the S&G treatment
10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



<tbody>
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

</tbody>


Do these passages mean Christianity is inherently evil?

I don't think so. Extremist Christians have used these and others to justify all sorts of violence much as extremist Muslims focus on specific passages of the Koran for their own purposes.

radon
05-08-13, 02:32 PM
I don't think so. Extremist Christians have used these and others to justify all sorts of violence much as extremist Muslims focus on specific passages of the Koran for their own purposes.


Yet, in spite of all this, it isn't the Christians who frequent the news in religiously motivated mass killings.

Raz
05-08-13, 03:54 PM
You're going to have to clarify, because the precepts of every faith have conflicting agendas.

If we take the Koran and the Bible both to be the unquestionable blueprints for Islam and Christianity, respectively, we can find passages in either to justify whatever is desired - either peace or war.

You keep trying to say the Koran is unique in its violence towards unbelievers - and keep refusing to admit the Bible also contains such passages. Previous examples were ignored, here are yet more:

Infanticide as acceptable

Swords, those notable instruments of peace

Killing unbelievers

Black Hawk Down and Operation Iraqi Freedom, all in one

Dominion over other nations

Sure, there are passages in the Bible referring to peace, love thy neighbor, etc - but then again, there are passage in the Koran as well.

But of course, you'll then say that Jesus never said such things. The New Testament.

Matthew

More Matthew: unreceptive audiences get the S&G treatment



Do these passages mean Christianity is inherently evil?

I don't think so. Extremist Christians have used these and others to justify all sorts of violence much as extremist Muslims focus on specific passages of the Koran for their own purposes.

The passages where you've picked out the words of Christ have absolutely nothing to do with temporal matters.
They are dissertations on the Last Judgement that takes place after the End of this Age and the General Resurrection.
The "fire" referred to is Gehenna, the place chosen by the wicked through their actions as their ultimate destiny.

Please take this link where you can find a study bible so you'll be able to differentiate between passages of Sacred Scripture.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/search_category.asp?PageName=search_category&SearchFrom=prodtop&SearchIn=TopicId

This website also offers numerous Bible Commentaries citing explanations from the Church Fathers all the way back to the second and third century.
And not all of those offered are from an Eastern Orthodox perspective. I would never attempt to lecture you on matters of IT or software unless I had an enormous amount of knowledge of the same.

Anyone can pick out a few verses of the Koran and justify the murder of Kafirs and even other Muslims.

I give weight to the interpretations of the overwhelming majority of Imams and Jurists of the Islamic faith that have been handed down for more than
1,000 years combined with the examples of behavior of Christ while He walked this earth, contrasted with the behavior of Muhammad while he walked this earth.

And once again, NONE of the passages you cited are perpetual commands applied to all of the earth's inhabitants, but pertain to wars of destruction upon people of unimaginable wickedness fought in one place at one time. (I posted hyperlinks for numerous references during our original discussion back in August 2012.) http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/23227-Syria-becoming-a-major-disaster-and-potential-terrorist-hotbed?p=236537#post236537

Neither the Israelites or the followers of Christ were commanded to convert the entire world through conquest and armed subjugation.
They were told to be witnesses to the truth of the revelation given them.You may have the last word if it makes you feel justified in accusing me of bigotry.
I see that there are other factors involved in your continueing this that have nothing to do with the truth.

Others can judge these discussions as to who is describing this subject accurately and fairly.

vinoveri
05-09-13, 10:51 AM
just my 2 cents and not directly on point, but think it is important to realize that as a Christian, I look for the reason why Islam is on the rise and Christendom in a long term continued decline and the answer is fairly obvious to me: FAITHFULNESS. Moslems (including 2 friends of mine) appear to live their faith (and they generally have larger families which is a key to the changing demographic). Western civilization has essentially abandoned true christianity and the rise of state power and its embrace of secularism and moral relativism increasingly pressure and marginalize the living out the faith in the public square. Unfortunately, notwithstanding our motto, the US does NOT trust in God. Moslems will supplant Christians as the dominant religion/culture over the longer term simply b/c Christianity has been abandoned or watered-down to the point of sentimentality (Christ without the cross). God rewards the faithful.

Chris Coles
05-09-13, 11:10 AM
just my 2 cents and not directly on point, but think it is important to realize that as a Christian, I look for the reason why Islam is on the rise and Christendom in a long term continued decline and the answer is fairly obvious to me: FAITHFULNESS. Moslems (including 2 friends of mine) appear to live their faith (and they generally have larger families which is a key to the changing demographic). Western civilization has essentially abandoned true christianity and the rise of state power and its embrace of secularism and moral relativism increasingly pressure and marginalize the living out the faith in the public square. Unfortunately, notwithstanding our motto, the US does NOT trust in God. Moslems will supplant Christians as the dominant religion/culture over the longer term simply b/c Christianity has been abandoned or watered-down to the point of sentimentality (Christ without the cross). God rewards the faithful.

Now I have to disagree with you; IMHO the main reason for the increase in the Islamic, Muslim population, is that they are entirely ruled by fear. Once "IN", they have no way out as they simply do not have the mechanisms to bring about change from within; again driven by fear of the consequences of raising matters into the wider viewpoint. I well remember reading about Islamic students, so angered by their teachers viewpoint regarding the truth of certain aspects of their teachings, took the teacher outside the room and threw him off the building, killing him instantly.

Look just this week in Pakistan where there have been many reports of the murder of secular representatives for the coming elections. Again, look at the many instances of where ordinary Muslim people have been murdered simply for wearing the wrong clothes, or for shaving off their beards.

One a Muslim, you have no option but to remain so.

It was precisely for these reasons that I wrote my short paper, (PDF above), A philosophical Viewpoint; Unless we outside, step up to the debate, we will be over run by zealots with only one recruitment method, join or be killed.

Turning to Christianity; here it is my view that the decline is entirely to do with a wider education of people that, instead of being murdered for their views, are free to argue that there is something wrong with all forms of religion.

We are watching a repeat of the history of religion; where not so very long ago here in Europe; you could be murdered for your views just because you were of a different interpretation of Christianity.

And yes, I did understand the risk when I sat down to write my own views on the subject.

vinoveri
05-09-13, 01:06 PM
Now I have to disagree with you; IMHO the main reason for the increase in the Islamic, Muslim population, is that they are entirely ruled by fear. Once "IN", they have no way out as they simply do not have the mechanisms to bring about change from within; again driven by fear of the consequences of raising matters into the wider viewpoint. I well remember reading about Islamic students, so angered by their teachers viewpoint regarding the truth of certain aspects of their teachings, took the teacher outside the room and threw him off the building, killing him instantly.

Look just this week in Pakistan where there have been many reports of the murder of secular representatives for the coming elections. Again, look at the many instances of where ordinary Muslim people have been murdered simply for wearing the wrong clothes, or for shaving off their beards.

One a Muslim, you have no option but to remain so.

It was precisely for these reasons that I wrote my short paper, (PDF above), A philosophical Viewpoint; Unless we outside, step up to the debate, we will be over run by zealots with only one recruitment method, join or be killed.

Turning to Christianity; here it is my view that the decline is entirely to do with a wider education of people that, instead of being murdered for their views, are free to argue that there is something wrong with all forms of religion.

We are watching a repeat of the history of religion; where not so very long ago here in Europe; you could be murdered for your views just because you were of a different interpretation of Christianity.
And yes, I did understand the risk when I sat down to write my own views on the subject. I don't think the implication that somehow we are progressing toward a better culture can be made, for now you cannot only be murdered just prior to birth, but you can perpetrate the murder with impunity. Recall the Aztecs who sacrificed their infants too. Paganism is on the rise in the west (perhaps masking on the guise of "enlightened free thought") The irony is so glaring and obvious, most won't see it.

c1ue
05-09-13, 03:47 PM
Neither the Israelites or the followers of Christ were commanded to convert the entire world through conquest and armed subjugation.

That's the interpretation now, but it was not the interpretation even a few centuries ago. And yes, Christianity - in all of its aspects - has been interpreted any number of times.

Mohammed may have been born roughly contemporary to Christ, but the rise of Islam and the economic/societal progression of most of its practitioners is centuries behind.


Now I have to disagree with you; IMHO the main reason for the increase in the Islamic, Muslim population, is that they are entirely ruled by fear. Once "IN", they have no way out as they simply do not have the mechanisms to bring about change from within; again driven by fear of the consequences of raising matters into the wider viewpoint. I well remember reading about Islamic students, so angered by their teachers viewpoint regarding the truth of certain aspects of their teachings, took the teacher outside the room and threw him off the building, killing him instantly.

So how would you term Turkey - which went from sultanates to a secular republic?

Chris Coles
05-09-13, 05:36 PM
So how would you term Turkey - which went from sultanates to a secular republic?

Military strength; prepared to fight fire with fire.