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iTulip Community Credits
What are iTulip Community Credits?
They are units of value backed by the full faith and credit of the iTulip community.
How does the community create its own credit, and how do I earn credits?
The community creates credit by creating value in the community through thoughtful analysis and commentary contributed to the community on our forums.
When members post to the iTulip Forums, we earn credits.
The number of credits earned per thread is multiplied by the thread rating. If you post a thread that the community rates highly, you earn more points than when you post threads that the community either does not rate highly or does not rate at all.
Credits are also multiplied by your reputation. The more you post, the higher your reputation, the more credits you earn per thread and post.
Besides posting to the forums, the other way to earn credits is by referring new members to our community. Each referral is worth 100 points.
For more information on how credits are earned, see "How credits are earned detail" below.
What can I buy with my iTulip Community Credits?
iTulip Select Premium Members (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1032) can use their credits to purchase shares in public companies, ETFs, index funds, and so on, in their iTulip Community Portfolio using the iTulip Community Trading System. We plan to launch the trading system next week.
Each credit is worth US$1000. Everyone starts of Sunday, August 5, 2007 with 500 credits. So everyone has $500,000 of iTulip "cash" to buy whatever they you want in their iTulip Portfolio. You use your iTulip Portfolio to model how your actual portfolio will behave, but without the risk of actual losses. For example, you may want to stay mostly in cash in your actual portfolio but be more daring in your iTulip Portfolio.
Go here (http://itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=main) to start to spend your credits to purchase stocks, ETFs, and so on.
Go here (http://itulip.com/forums/credits.php?u=1) to see the current top 50 credits earners.
How credits are earned detail
Induction Credit - Credits awarded when user first joins this usergroup such as by registration, subscription, manually, etc. : 100
Referral Credit: 100
Additive Referral Bonus - For each referral, this amount is multiplied and then added to 1 to make the final multiplier against all other credit awards: 100
Birthday Credit - Credit granted on users' birthdays: 100
New Thread Credit: 20
Rate Thread Credit: 5
Posting Credit - Credits awarded for all posts, except upon creating a new thread: 5
Own Thread Posting Credit - Applied when user posts in a thread which they originally created: 3
Post Size Credit - Credit awarded per character or word in a post, in addition to the Posting Credit: 0 (This means that long posts don't earn any more credits than short ones.)
Poll Create Credit: 10
Poll Vote Credit: 3
Reputation Granting - Credit Awarded to these users when they give others reputation: .01
Positive Reputation - Credit Awarded when these users receive positive reputation: 10
Negative Reputation - Credit Awarded when these users receive negative reputation: -15
Deleted Thread Credit - Credit applied when a user's thread is deleted: -20
Deleted Post Credit - Credit applied when a user's post is deleted. -5
Jim Nickerson
08-04-07, 02:39 PM
So how is it that some who have never posted have more than zero credits?
Jim Nickerson
08-04-07, 03:11 PM
iTulip Community Credits
What are iTulip Community Credits?
Each credit is worth US$100. For example, if you have 370 credits, you have $370,000 of iTulip "cash" to buy whatever you want in your portfolio. You use your iTulip Community Portfolio to model how your actual portfolio will behave, but without the risk of actual losses. For example, you may want to stay mostly in cash in your actual portfolio but be more daring in your iTulip Community Portfolio.
To the me there is potential real value in seeing how anyone invests real money.
To me there is no value in seeing how anyone might "invest" play-money when in actuality there is nothing to be lost.
If how individuals "invest" their credits is to be available for scrutiny by other members, then it would make sense to me that the management encourage individuals to "invest" their credits as it best reflects their real life investments. To me to spend my time looking at how joeschmoe might "invest" play-bonars is a waste of time.
Granted there is no mechanism to insure that individuals actually "invest" their play-bonars as would be indicative of their real-life portfolios, but I am willing to assume more people would be honest than dishonest, where is the gain in such a game from being dishonest?
I think I detected that the question I posed above as the first response to this thread added 10 credits to my account. I dare say that question was not worth a $1000, so it seems your system has taken into account the full and devastating effects of rampant inflation.
So how is it that some who have never posted have more than zero credits?
They referred someone.
You know, the more I do online "asset allocation" and "stock picking" contests the more I'm just so pissed off at myself that i didn't get a business degree from harvard and start my own mutual fund company.
-DemonD, currently with very healthy "imaginary" returns on two very well-respected and well-known online financial news and analysis websites.
To the me there is potential real value in seeing how anyone invests real money.
iTulip does not plan to become an online brokerage.
To me there is no value in seeing how anyone might "invest" play-money when in actuality there is nothing to be lost.
If iTulip is not a brokerage and so iTulip credit are used instead of real money, how will you ever know if someone else's portfolio in fact reflects their actual portfolio? In any case, it will be up to joeshmoe to decide if he wants his iTulip portfolio to reflect his actual portfolio.
If how individuals "invest" their credits is to be available for scrutiny by other members, then it would make sense to me that the management encourage individuals to "invest" their credits as it best reflects their real life investments. To me to spend my time looking at how joeschmoe might "invest" play-bonars is a waste of time.
You will be able to see is how joe's investments are doing over time.
Granted there is no mechanism to insure that individuals actually "invest" their play-bonars as would be indicative of their real-life portfolios, but I am willing to assume more people would be honest than dishonest, where is the gain in such a game from being dishonest?
Pride.
I think I detected that the question I posed above as the first response to this thread added 10 credits to my account. I dare say that question was not worth a $1000, so it seems your system has taken into account the full and devastating effects of rampant inflation.
Let's see anyone rates the thread a 5, then at least you'll get 50 credits.
You know, the more I do online "asset allocation" and "stock picking" contests the more I'm just so pissed off at myself that i didn't get a business degree from harvard and start my own mutual fund company.
-DemonD, currently with very healthy "imaginary" returns on two very well-respected and well-known online financial news and analysis websites.
Your experience should give you confidence to put real money to work. That's the idea. Learning with fake money saves boat loads of real money.
The longer each post, the more credits we earn. Frequent short posts are fine, but the more thought and analysis we put into each thread and post, the more credits we each earn.
I'm not sure I entirely buy into the idea that a longer post is a more valuable post. Some people have a habit of babbling on and on without really saying much of significance. We can hope that a longer post has been carefully thought out and much explanation was needed to convey their thoughts, but this will not always be the case.
I agree with Jim's assessment of investing pretend credits vs real money. With no real-world risk, I'd be inclined towards riskier investments than I would take on in real life. However, the trading system sounds like an interesting idea if you can see what everyone else bought and how their investments have fared.
Your experience should give you confidence to put real money to work. That's the idea. Learning with fake money saves boat loads of real money.
Yes, I know, and I've used to my advantage several sources of information for investing my own money. To me it's really fun though, and the idea of just doing stocks and bonds and commodities for a living sounds much more fun than my current j o b. The goal is to some day basically have enough assets to build my own mutual fund (I sort of see my portfolio as a self-run mutual fund), but it would just be nice to be there right now. Earlier today I was working in a hospital helping people move around, walk, and restore their ambulatory function after being injured or sick, and while it's rewarding, it's draining and tiring. yet here I am 2 hours after work and all I've done is eaten lunch and read up on financials and contributed, b/c i don't really see this as work.
The one thing I've learned in having watch lists and stock games is this:
PATIENCE.
I'm not sure I entirely buy into the idea that a longer post is a more valuable post. Some people have a habit of babbling on and on without really saying much of significance. We can hope that a longer post has been carefully thought out and much explanation was needed to convey their thoughts, but this will not always be the case.
I agree with Jim's assessment of investing pretend credits vs real money. With no real-world risk, I'd be inclined towards riskier investments than I would take on in real life. However, the trading system sounds like an interesting idea if you can see what everyone else bought and how their investments have fared.
Zoog, I just have to say everything you write I keep nodding my head in agreement. Especially the second paragraph, which is why I have no shame in publicly posting opinions on "I'm buying at this level here." You can find some of my posts especially in the 'where the market is headed' thread under the news, but that is my personal style, I love getting into the nitty gritty of "X investment is good at Y level, but it's at Z and I wouldn't go for it until it gets down to Y." Incidentally that's why I'm a big fan of a couple of other website where there is more specific discussions on equities.
I don't want to pimp out any other website (I have no specific relations to any website or company, although I would link an article if I found it pertinent), so if you're interested in seeing what else I look at feel free to PM me and I'll give you the links.
Yes, I know, and I've used to my advantage several sources of information for investing my own money. To me it's really fun though, and the idea of just doing stocks and bonds and commodities for a living sounds much more fun than my current j o b. The goal is to some day basically have enough assets to build my own mutual fund (I sort of see my portfolio as a self-run mutual fund), but it would just be nice to be there right now. Earlier today I was working in a hospital helping people move around, walk, and restore their ambulatory function after being injured or sick, and while it's rewarding, it's draining and tiring. yet here I am 2 hours after work and all I've done is eaten lunch and read up on financials and contributed, b/c i don't really see this as work.
The one thing I've learned in having watch lists and stock games is this:
PATIENCE.
Bingo. That's the iTulip way. Study, do nothing, study, do nothing, study, do nothing, study... MOVE!
Zoog, I just have to say everything you write I keep nodding my head in agreement.
Uh, thanks.:o
Especially the second paragraph, which is why I have no shame in publicly posting opinions on "I'm buying at this level here." You can find some of my posts especially in the 'where the market is headed' thread under the news, but that is my personal style, I love getting into the nitty gritty of "X investment is good at Y level, but it's at Z and I wouldn't go for it until it gets down to Y." Incidentally that's why I'm a big fan of a couple of other website where there is more specific discussions on equities.
I don't want to pimp out any other website (I have no specific relations to any website or company, although I would link an article if I found it pertinent), so if you're interested in seeing what else I look at feel free to PM me and I'll give you the links.I'm not so much into the particulars myself (unless it happens to be a specific investment I'm interested in). But I think it would be enlightening in a broad perspective to see what sort of things people here were investing in (even if just virtually). To see, based on what they have learned here at iTulip (and elsewhere), what they think has potential, vs what the market at large seems to be investing in. Various disagreements have popped up in the threads here and there, so I am sure the investment portfolios would diverge accordingly, which itself would offer some clues.
As you can see, we've made some changes based on everyone's feedback:
Frequency of posts is now just as valued as length of posts.
Question: When we officially launch iTulip Community Credits along with the Trading System, shall we start everyone out at the same level? Is that fair, or do we need to find a fair way to credit all the contributions which have already been made?
Question: When we officially launch iTulip Community Credits along with the Trading System, shall we start everyone out at the same level? Is that fair, or do we need to find a fair way to credit all the contributions which have already been made?
Thinking too hard.
When you are creating a monetary system - think Fed.
Just do it :D
Jim Nickerson
08-04-07, 11:42 PM
iTulip does not plan to become an online brokerage.
If iTulip is not a brokerage and so iTulip credit are used instead of real money, how will you ever know if someone else's portfolio in fact reflects their actual portfolio? In any case, it will be up to joeshmoe to decide if he wants his iTulip portfolio to reflect his actual portfolio.
You will be able to see is how joe's investments are doing over time.
Pride.
Let's see anyone rates the thread a 5, then at least you'll get 50 credits.
I believe my point was the management should encourage participants to use their credits as they would use their real bonars, and I noted enforcement of truth is impossible.
Jim Nickerson
08-04-07, 11:54 PM
Uh, thanks.:o
I'm not so much into the particulars myself (unless it happens to be a specific investment I'm interested in). But I think it would be enlightening in a broad perspective to see what sort of things people here were investing in (even if just virtually). To see, based on what they have learned here at iTulip (and elsewhere), what they think has potential, vs what the market at large seems to be investing in. Various disagreements have popped up in the threads here and there, so I am sure the investment portfolios would diverge accordingly, which itself would offer some clues.
Some of the posters on iTulip strike me as mostly mouth when it comes to their comments on investing, that is the opinion I gather, and I may be wrong. Others who I accept on faith, and I am not a person of faith, make statements that I choose to believe are likely true, and again I may be wrong.
I still believe more is to be learned if individuals are encouraged to use the credits to reflect how they are investing their real money. If the system works out that it will allow me to post how I am invested, I will exactly mimic how my real money is invested, and you can take that to the credit bank.
Jim Nickerson
08-04-07, 11:57 PM
As you can see, we've made some changes based on everyone's feedback:
Frequency of posts is now just as valued as length of posts.
Question: When we officially launch iTulip Community Credits along with the Trading System, shall we start everyone out at the same level? Is that fair, or do we need to find a fair way to credit all the contributions which have already been made?
Answer: start them out equally, and with something less than a million credits, unless you have reason to believe most iTuliper have real portfolios of a million or more bonars/dollars. I would bet most don't have a million bonars, but purely conjecture of course.
If the system works out that it will allow me to post how I am invested, I will exactly mimic how my real money is invested, and you can take that to the credit bank.
Putting your mouth where your money is.:D
The only problem I see is virtually buying now what you have really purchased previously. Say that in the real world, a few months ago you bought stock ABC at $50. Now said stock is only worth $20. In iTulip-land, you buy that stock at $20. Some time passes, the stock is worth $40. In the real world, you're still in the red, but in the virtual world, you've doubled your money. Hmm.
Perhaps the system is sophisticated enough to allow you to backdate stock options, but unlike a real world CEO, you virtually backdate to reflect your real-world losses.:p
Jim Nickerson
08-05-07, 12:37 AM
Putting your mouth where your money is.:D
The only problem I see is virtually buying now what you have really purchased previously. Say that in the real world, a few months ago you bought stock ABC at $50. Now said stock is only worth $20. In iTulip-land, you buy that stock at $20. Some time passes, the stock is worth $40. In the real world, you're still in the red, but in the virtual world, you've doubled your money. Hmm.
Perhaps the system is sophisticated enough to allow you to backdate stock options, but unlike a real world CEO, you virtually backdate to reflect your real-world losses.:p
First, zoog, you better be careful what you contribute here, as right now I don't see where you are getting "paid" any credits for your opinions.
Secondly, your point seems valid to me, but on the other hand, if I put my portfolio up as it stood Friday, then what is important to me is how it does henceforth. Right now I have some gains and loses, all of which may reverse by next Friday, but if I put the portfolio as it stood Friday, then next week there will be a real result, and I believe that is what will count in actualilty.
To me the considerations of what iTulip seems to be attempting is not about someone winning a contest, but rather dissemination by virtue of "showing what one is holding" of investment philosophy or disposition toward various risks as time goes forth.
Jim Nickerson
08-05-07, 12:52 AM
iTulip Community Credits
What are iTulip Community Credits?
They are units of value backed by the full faith and credit of the iTulip community.
How does the community create its own credit, and how do I earn credits?
The community creates credit by creating value in the community through thoughtful analysis and commentary contributed to the community on our forums.
When members post to the iTulip Forums, we earn credits.
The number of credits earned per thread is multiplied by the thread rating. If you post a thread that the community rates highly, you earn more points than when you post threads that the community either does not rate highly or does not rate at all.
Credits are also multiplied by your reputation. The more you post, the higher your reputation, the more credits you earn per thread and post.
Besides posting to the forums, the other way to earn credits is by referring new members to our community. Each referral is worth 100 points.
For more information on how credits are earned, see "How credits are earned detail" below.
What can I buy with my iTulip Community Credits?
iTulip Select Premium Members (http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1032) can use their credits to purchase shares in public companies, ETFs, index funds, and so on, in their iTulip Community Portfolio using the iTulip Community Trading System. We plan to launch the trading system next week.
Each credit is worth US$100. For example, if you have 370 credits, you have $370,000 of iTulip "cash" to buy whatever you want in your portfolio. You use your iTulip Community Portfolio to model how your actual portfolio will behave, but without the risk of actual losses. For example, you may want to stay mostly in cash in your actual portfolio but be more daring in your iTulip Community Portfolio.
Go here to see the current top 50 credits earners (http://itulip.com/forums/credits.php?u=1). Until we work out the details of how we want to credit various kinds of activity, only you can view the number of credits you have earned. Credits range from over 1,000 to less than 10. Currently, we do not feel that the credits as the currently show up reflect the relative value of members' contributions. We are tempted to simply set everyone's credits to a large arbitrary number and simply use the credits as currency for the Trading service. We welcome your comments.
How credits are earned detail
Induction Credit - Credits awarded when user first joins this usergroup such as by registration, subscription, manually, etc. : 100
Referral Credit: 100
Additive Referral Bonus - For each referral, this amount is multiplied and then added to 1 to make the final multiplier against all other credit awards: 100
Birthday Credit - Credit granted on users' birthdays: 100
New Thread Credit: 20
Rate Thread Credit: 5
Posting Credit - Credits awarded for all posts, except upon creating a new thread: 5
Own Thread Posting Credit - Applied when user posts in a thread which they originally created: 3
Post Size Credit - Credit awarded per character or word in a post, in addition to the Posting Credit: .01 (This means that frequency of posts is as important as length of posts.)
Poll Create Credit: 10
Poll Vote Credit: 3
Reputation Granting - Credit Awarded to these users when they give others reputation: .01
Positive Reputation - Credit Awarded when these users receive positive reputation: 10
Negative Reputation - Credit Awarded when these users receive negative reputation: -15
Deleted Thread Credit - Credit applied when a user's thread is deleted: -20
Deleted Post Credit - Credit applied when a user's post is deleted. -5
With my small mind, I cannot imagine how even a computer system could keep up and actually evaluate all you have suggested above.
To me you seem to be moving in two directions here.
1-A system wherein information is shared about investing in hopefully some manner that approaches reality--the latter is my hope.
2-A system wherein posters get rewards (credits) for contributions to the repartee that takes place on iTulip. I personally don't see any value to this.
Give everyone you choose some credits and if they wish to put up how they invest it, then let us have at it.
With my small mind, I cannot imagine how even a computer system could keep up and actually evaluate all you have suggested above.
To me you seem to be moving in two directions here.
1-A system wherein information is shared about investing in hopefully some manner that approaches reality--the latter is my hope.
2-A system wherein posters get rewards (credits) for contributions to the repartee that takes place on iTulip. I personally don't see any value to this.
Give everyone you choose some credits and if they wish to put up how they invest it, then let us have at it.
Actually, this is a simplified version of how the system actually works.:cool:
Ok so here's the principle that we've arrived at:
1) Start with a level playing field of 500 points. That's $500,000 in portfolio cash to invest, if you are a subscriber.
2) The value of contributions to the forum is not relative to length but to frequency and how long the member has been around. So we up the reputation factor and make Birthdays a big factor, cut post length value to zero.
3) Credits earned for referrals are upped, too.
Jim Nickerson
08-05-07, 10:23 AM
Question: Once one uses credits to buy stocks, etc. will the values of the portfolios be displayed in "credits" or "bonars"? Heaven forbid, it will be displayed in "credits." Why not make "credits" equal to "bonars"?
They are displayed both in credits and bonars, er, US$
If I have 500 points as you seem inclined to use, why not do away with the conversion factor and just display that I have 500,000 "whatevers" with the fact being the 500,000 "whatevers" represent the same number of "bonars"?
$500,000 is a nice round number as a cash starting point for the portfolios. You are buying based on actual stock prices, so if we made the ratio of iTulip Community Credits to $US one to one, and you were inclined to buy some goog @ 503.00, you would not even be able to buy one share.
metalman
08-05-07, 04:58 PM
They are displayed both in credits and bonars, er, US$
$500,000 is a nice round number as a cash starting point for the portfolios. You are buying based on actual stock prices, so if we made the ratio of iTulip Community Credits to $US one to one, and you were inclined to buy some goog @ 503.00, you would not even be able to buy one share.
haha! looks like fred edited jim's post! give that man a day off, fer christ's sake! or he might SNAP like cramer. (hey, jim. there's one for you... SLC as in Snap Like Cramer.)
i bought some gld, natch, for my portfolio. looked at the list but it doesn't show nothing. bug?
http://www.itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=topportfolios
haha! looks like fred edited jim's post! give that man a day off, fer christ's sake! or he might SNAP like cramer. (hey, jim. there's one for you... SLC as in Snap Like Cramer.)
i bought some gld, natch, for my portfolio. looked at the list but it doesn't show nothing. bug?
http://www.itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=topportfolios
RYVLX it's all I'm going to say.
Jim Nickerson
08-05-07, 06:36 PM
They are displayed both in credits and bonars, er, US$
$500,000 is a nice round number as a cash starting point for the portfolios. You are buying based on actual stock prices, so if we made the ratio of iTulip Community Credits to $US one to one, and you were inclined to buy some goog @ 503.00, you would not even be able to buy one share.
Hey, Fred it does appear someone screwed with my post. Never saw that before.
Well, make 500 credits 500,000 bonars and list it that way, and if one wants 1 share of goog, then one spends 503bonars. That is truly simple.
Hey, Fred it does appear someone screwed with my post. Never saw that before.
Well, make 500 credits 500,000 bonars and list it that way, and if one wants 1 share of goog, then one spends 503bonars. That is truly simple.
As the admin, I hit "edit" instead of "quote" and accidentally edited your post.
Sorry!
Hey, look! I'm a bonar millionaire! 1,109 credits x 1,000 = $1,109,000 bonars.
quigleydoor
08-06-07, 07:19 AM
1) Start with a level playing field of 500 points. That's $500,000 in portfolio cash to invest, if you are a subscriber.
I would have a lot of fun with this if you opened it up to freeloaders, but I don't think I'm going to pay for it, or your other services.
metalman
08-06-07, 10:29 AM
I would have a lot of fun with this if you opened it up to freeloaders, but I don't think I'm going to pay for it, or your other services.
there are plenty of other tools like this on other sites, but where else you gonna compare your portfolio with tet's and sapien's? near as i can tell, they invest 180 degrees opposite each other. i see the value of the tool as the combination of what it is and where it is, but i'd not pay for it on its own. fine as a feature along with other services. i find the interviews the most useful aspect. where's mayer? i want and update! where's the bulldozer?
RYVLX it's all I'm going to say.
Up 3.6% today and I'd like to take this moment in time to thank Fred for creating this contest the day after one of the larger sell-offs of the year. Our 401K advisor always says you can't time the market, to which I reply it's all about the timing. RYVLX is a OTC fund that pays double on movement, had the NASDAQ been down a percent today RYVLX would have been off 2%. I think everyone should check out RYDEX funds when looking for an investment/bet to place. This one seemed like a very safe bet to place yesterday after Friday's action, not so sure I'd be holding this one tomorrow. :)
Up 3.6% today and I'd like to take this moment in time to thank Fred for creating this contest the day after one of the larger sell-offs of the year. Our 401K advisor always says you can't time the market, to which I reply it's all about the timing. RYVLX is a OTC fund that pays double on movement, had the NASDAQ been down a percent today RYVLX would have been off 2%. I think everyone should check out RYDEX funds when looking for an investment/bet to place. This one seemed like a very safe bet to place yesterday after Friday's action, not so sure I'd be holding this one tomorrow. :)
I used up some credits to purchase a few short funds just before the close today. I don't expect to be in the money tomorrow, but you never know. As I've written before, the best experience I've had buying these short funds is to buy the bounce. The bounce may not be over, but it seems to me that unless the Fed jumps in, I'll earn some serious credits before it does. Of course, if the Fed does jump in while I'm still short, I'll get my ass handed to me. But then my gold stock and ETF positions ought to hedge that somewhat; hard to see how the Fed can drop rates from the current low base with the dollar still poking around 80 and oil still near all-time nominal highs without getting a pop in gold.
This is, of course, not "investing" per se. It is speculating. Then again, in a speculative market, now crashing up and down like a airplane that's lost its tail, all investing is speculative. Most of my money, as I've said before, is in CDs and cash.
Jim Nickerson
08-06-07, 05:06 PM
I used up some credits to purchase a few short funds just before the close today. I don't expect to be in the money tomorrow, but you never know. As I've written before, the best experience I've had buying these short funds is to buy the bounce. The bounce may not be over, but it seems to me that unless the Fed jumps in, I'll earn some serious credits before it does. Of course, if the Fed does jump in while I'm still short, I'll get my ass handed to me. But then my gold stock and ETF positions ought to hedge that somewhat; hard to see how the Fed can drop rates from the current low base with the dollar still poking around 80 and oil still near all-time nominal highs without getting a pop in gold.
This is, of course, not "investing" per se. It is speculating. Then again, in a speculative market, now crashing up and down like a airplane that's lost its tail, all investing is speculative. Most of my money, as I've said before, is in CDs and cash.
So I surmise there is someway to invest the credits, where?
Yes, the trading system (http://itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=main).
This is, of course, not "investing" per se. It is speculating. Then again, in a speculative market, now crashing up and down like a airplane that's lost its tail, all investing is speculative. Most of my money, as I've said before, is in CDs and cash.
It's not a matter of being right or wrong, long or short, this market action is accomplishing what Wall Street wants, we are either in or we are out of the market and Wall Street definitely wants us in. I've gone from 30% cash to 20% cash in the last week and I don't like that one bit.
I seriously doubt Bernieboy is going to help out Cramer tomorrow with a rate cut or even help out with the wording and it wouldn't shock me to see this up/down action run for a while longer, I'd be more worried about Cisco if I were betting short than be concerned about the Fed. Good luck.
Jim Nickerson
08-06-07, 05:41 PM
It's not a matter of being right or wrong, long or short, this market action is accomplishing what Wall Street wants, we are either in or we are out of the market and Wall Street definitely wants us in. I've gone from 30% cash to 20% cash in the last week and I don't like that one bit.
I seriously doubt Bernieboy is going to help out Cramer tomorrow with a rate cut or even help out with the wording and it wouldn't shock me to see this up/down action run for a while longer, I'd be more worried about Cisco if I were betting short than be concerned about the Fed. Good luck.
If investing isn't the matter of "right or wrong, long or short," come back, Good-buddy, and try again to tell us what it is about.
If investing isn't the matter of "right or wrong, long or short," come back, Good-buddy, and try again to tell us what it is about.
Sorry, just badly trying to point out the the casino doesn't care if you're winning or losing, just that you're playing, the House knows the odds are on their side. If all you're money is on one of the numbers at the roulette wheel, sooner or later the House takes all your money.
lobodelmar
08-07-07, 03:01 PM
So Fred, what is the real motivation for this credit program?
Is it to:
-try to increase the frequency of posting?
-give kudos to the most verbose poster? That could be a disincentive for readership.
-Increase the sticky factor for coming back to iTulip?
-allow bragging rights for those who call the market (or more likely, invest in risky bets that pay off?)
-reward those who post/contribute most often?
-teach valuable lessons about investing? (kinda agree with Jim N on how this won't really work well).
I already use yahoo finance "fake" portfolios to watch stocks long term, to satisfy my urge to gamble, er, I mean, adding a stock to my portfolio based on some random news story/hot tip from Uncle Louie/friend from b-school's recommendation, so I am not sure I would get much from the investment contest here...and like DemonD or Jim N says, it might not be that helpful without real skin in the game...
-reward quality contributions? There might be a better way to do that...clearly there are many fantastic minds on this board, and the chartaholics and clever analysts that I enjoy reading so much are certainly invaluable for the discussion. I know there is already a shadow fed, and there are sections where some of the top contributors have their own "columns"...I think going more in that direction is probably more effective.
But if it is just "for the love of the game," then I say, play on...
- lobodelmar
So Fred, what is the real motivation for this credit program? - lobodelmar
Is it to:
-try to increase the frequency of posting?
-give kudos to the most verbose poster? That could be a disincentive for readership.
The purpose of the credits is to provide a currency for the trading system. But, as long as the credits system has all these other features, we're trying to figure out how best to use them. We changed the settings based on Jim's and other's feedback that longer isn't necessarily better. The system now does reward frequent posting.
-Increase the sticky factor for coming back to iTulip?
The trading system/portfolios have a "sticky" factor. But it's the quality of the posters and an environment where everyone can enjoy constructive discussion, with a sense of humor, that's the main attraction.
-allow bragging rights for those who call the market (or more likely, invest in risky bets that pay off?)
No doubt that will change over time. Sure will be interesting to see whose ideas actually work, won't it?
-reward those who post/contribute most often?
Yes.
-teach valuable lessons about investing? (kinda agree with Jim N on how this won't really work well).
We think that over time the system will do just that.
I already use yahoo finance "fake" portfolios to watch stocks long term, to satisfy my urge to gamble, er, I mean, adding a stock to my portfolio based on some random news story/hot tip from Uncle Louie/friend from b-school's recommendation, so I am not sure I would get much from the investment contest here...and like DemonD or Jim N says, it might not be that helpful without real skin in the game...
I dunno. I have some bets up there and I already feel like my rep's on the line. Rep is more than money, to most folks.
-reward quality contributions? There might be a better way to do that...clearly there are many fantastic minds on this board, and the chartaholics and clever analysts that I enjoy reading so much are certainly invaluable for the discussion. I know there is already a shadow fed, and there are sections where some of the top contributors have their own "columns"...I think going more in that direction is probably more effective.
That's not going away. Thing is, for every ten posters there are 1,000 lurkers. How to draw them out?
We got a surprise coming for the chartaholics by the way. Stay tuned!
But if it is just "for the love of the game," then I say, play on...
There's that, too. This is just one of many things we plan to add.
And if all of our market bets go bad and we all go broke? Well, heck, we can inflate out way out of it, JUST LIKE THE FED! We'll issue everyone 1,000,000 New Credits. Woo hoo! Just kidding.
Thanks.
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 03:55 PM
Hey, Fred.
I just logged into the http://itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=main to see what may be what.
After one places one's purchases, I assume somewhere there will a member's names with his/her positions. How does one look at that, if that exists?
I see the lists of top investors, but still see no link to how they may be invested.
Okay, I see the magnifying glass, so don't answer my questions.
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 05:03 PM
So where does one transact a sale of a position or part of a position?
Now it is 7PM EDT, and I just put in a quote for RYSBX and it doesn't return a price--what is that about? And it is the same for the opposite fund RYWBX.
Hey, Fred.
I just logged into the http://itulip.com/forums/vbtrade.php?do=main to see what may be what.
After one places one's purchases, I assume somewhere there will a member's names with his/her positions. How does one look at that, if that exists?
I see the lists of top investors, but still see no link to how they may be invested.
Okay, I see the magnifying glass, so don't answer my questions.
ok, I won't!
So where does one transact a sale of a position or part of a position?
Now it is 7PM EDT, and I just put in a quote for RYSBX and it doesn't return a price--what is that about? And it is the same for the opposite fund RYWBX.
Hmmmm. Just used the trading system to do a search and got:
RYDEX SERIES FDS (6:02pm:RYSBX) N/A (+0.11) 24 +0.45% 8/7/2007
RYDEX SERIES FDS (6:02pm:RYWBX) N/A (-0.13) 28 -0.47% 8/7/2007
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 07:00 PM
Hmmmm. Just used the trading system to do a search and got:
RYDEX SERIES FDS (6:02pm:RYSBX) N/A (+0.11) 24 +0.45% 8/7/2007
RYDEX SERIES FDS (6:02pm:RYWBX) N/A (-0.13) 28 -0.47% 8/7/2007
Yes, but do you see there is no price quotation. If you put in HSGFX you will get the closing price plus the other stuff you posted.
I own RYSBX, and if I get around to putting in my portfolio later this evening, that there is no price there, that will negate my putting in that position, I suspect, but do not know fer shure.
Yes, but do you see there is no price quotation. If you put in HSGFX you will get the closing price plus the other stuff you posted.
I own RYSBX, and if I get around to putting in my portfolio later this evening, that there is no price there, that will negate my putting in that position, I suspect, but do not know fer shure.
Interesting, that's one I hadn't seen before and the one on the Real Estate Short fund was also interesting. I would think the RYSBX fund would be off a lot more than .7%, what am I missing here, d0llar is off more than .7% YTD isn't it? Thanks.
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 07:31 PM
Interesting, that's one I hadn't seen before and the one on the Real Estate Short fund was also interesting. I would think the RYSBX fund would be off a lot more than .7%, what am I missing here, d0llar is off more than .7% YTD isn't it? Thanks.
It is not clear to me where you are getting the "0.7%" number. At any rate look at chart, that should help you answer your question.
It is not clear to me where you are getting the "0.7%" number. At any rate look at chart, that should help you answer your question.
This is what I see. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RYSBX
Off seven tenths of one percent Year to Date. I thought the d0llar was off more than that YTD.
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 08:32 PM
This is what I see. http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RYSBX
Off seven tenths of one percent Year to Date. I thought the d0llar was off more than that YTD.
OIC -- Oh, I see, thanks. I'm hanging with RYSBX (SB = strong buck) moves +2X US$ index, partly because of this http://www.buythebottom.com/cot_charts/usd.html (sorry can't get image to import).
partly because there is such a large short position in the bonar, and partly because I believe Ka- has not arrived.
OIC -- Oh, I see, thanks. I'm hanging with RYSBX (SB = strong buck) moves +2X US$ index, partly because of this http://www.buythebottom.com/cot_charts/usd.html (sorry can't get image to import).
partly because there is such a large short position in the bonar, and partly because I believe Ka- has not arrived.
I'm in agreement, I might play that one myself.
Jim Nickerson
08-07-07, 11:39 PM
Hey Fred,
Gosh, I wish I were not compulsive when it comes to dealing with numbers on my spreadsheet, but, what the hell, I am.
I am trying to figure (compute) how to display my portfolio in a manner that will accurately reflect the percentages of my holdings. In order to do that, one necessary capability of your system would be that it allows one to enter fractional shares when entering a "BUY" and it seems that capability doesn't exist. If one enters a fractional number of shares, the system drops the fraction.
Is it possible that you can modify the system so that it will accept fractional share purchases and sales out to three decimal places--just like at a real brokerage? I would think this capability would aid all who may enter mutual fund purchases, and it would certainly aid me in trying to enter stock shares that have been modified so as to reflect my percentages--in a portfolio that I have calculated to total $500,000 whenever I first can post it.
Another problem I encountered in just fooling around with your system. I have some cash in Schwab in a money market fund, SWVXX, if a quote is put in for that symbol, the returned value is the simple yield 4.93%, and when I attempt to put in a BUY for example of 1000 shares, it says "you have entered an invalid stock symbol or stock that is not traded in the US"
To work around that, is it possible that you can create and publish somewhere here a symbol that would be generic for all money market funds whose NAV is $1.00?
And then there is the problem I mentioned earlier, and to which you insufficiently responded. RYSBX. If I use that symbol to enter a BUY, your system returns the error message: You cannot buy this stock.
Portfolio display. For reference let's use yours as posted where dollars are displayed in the table. For one to gain meaning from looking at a list of positions for a given poster, it would be beneficial if on the last row of the table, currently showing Total Portfolio Value, it showed the total Cost Basis, total Mkt Value, total Gain, total Gain %.
Are any of these issues ones that you can resolve--hopefully to my satisfaction--which I will be swell-headed and suggest to the usefulness of us all. I think these modifications, if they can implemented, really would be useful if the system is to have meaning, and I am not intending to be hypercritical of your efforts so far.
Thank you very much.
Edit: The value of the second table where the portfolio value is shown in "Forum Currency" is beyond my comprehension. Why have the second table at all?
BUG: it accepts late trades, i.e. you can cheat the same way people were doing in the CNBC challenge.
Andreuccio
08-15-07, 12:52 PM
Thing is, for every ten posters there are 1,000 lurkers. How to draw them out?
In my opinion, you're in a bit of a Catch-22 here. From what I've seen, you actually have about 10 regular high quality posters, another 10 who pop in from time to time, and a few neophytes like me who are either bold enough or stupid enough to jump into the discussion even though they only have a limited knowledge of the subject matter. Probably 99% of the lurkers are at the neophyte level.
The high level of commentary draws readers in, but it serves as a strong disinsentive to post. Although you're very patient here, nobody wants to look like an idiot, and most people also don't want to waste your time with a bunch of elementary questions. You also might want to think about if you really want all those 1000 lurkers posting. I'm always concerned that my posts, for example, dilute the discourse and are a distraction rather than an addition. And do you really want 1000 people asking for definitions of "currency depreciation based reflation efforts"?
In thinking about this, though, an idea occurs to me that might make the site more accessible: make the glossary interactive. Would it be possible to have the glossary words linked in the text, like those links to Amazon books a couple of weeks back. If you scrolled your mouse over any words that were in the glossary, a box would open with the definition. (Of course, this time, I would suggest linking to the definition of the same word, rather than a random word like with the Amazon titles. :D) And you could provide a "sandbox" area where people could ask the basic questions, and then add those items to the glossary, too. I don't know if this would just be a distraction rather than being useful, but it would have made things easier for me in the beginning.
Jim Nickerson
08-15-07, 01:12 PM
In my opinion, you're in a bit of a Catch-22 here. From what I've seen, you actually have about 10 regular high quality posters, another 10 who pop in from time to time, and a few neophytes like me who are either bold enough or stupid enough to jump into the discussion even though they only have a limited knowledge of the subject matter. Probably 99% of the lurkers are at the neophyte level.
The high level of commentary draws readers in, but it serves as a strong disinsentive to post. Although you're very patient here, nobody wants to look like an idiot, and most people also don't want to waste your time with a bunch of elementary questions. You also might want to think about if you really want all those 1000 lurkers posting. I'm always concerned that my posts, for example, dilute the discourse and are a distraction rather than an addition. And do you really want 1000 people asking for definitions of "currency depreciation based reflation efforts"?
In thinking about this, though, an idea occurs to me that might make the site more accessible: make the glossary interactive. Would it be possible to have the glossary words linked in the text, like those links to Amazon books a couple of weeks back. If you scrolled your mouse over any words that were in the glossary, a box would open with the definition. (Of course, this time, I would suggest linking to the definition of the same word, rather than a random word like with the Amazon titles. :D) And you could provide a "sandbox" area where people could ask the basic questions, and then add those items to the glossary, too. I don't know if this would just be a distraction rather than being useful, but it would have made things easier for me in the beginning.
Don't ever feel stupid for asking questions. Somebody may answer them or not, probably depending upon what things are going on it their own lives or portfolios.
lobodelmar
08-15-07, 01:19 PM
Great suggestions...hope those can be implemented. I think there is a post somewhere that started aggregating iTulip specific glossary terms but can't remember where it was...but yes, it would be helpful for all of us neophytic, chartophobic, benthic gastropods lurking in the background...
In my opinion, you're in a bit of a Catch-22 here. From what I've seen, you actually have about 10 regular high quality posters, another 10 who pop in from time to time, and a few neophytes like me who are either bold enough or stupid enough to jump into the discussion even though they only have a limited knowledge of the subject matter. Probably 99% of the lurkers are at the neophyte level.
The high level of commentary draws readers in, but it serves as a strong disinsentive to post. Although you're very patient here, nobody wants to look like an idiot, and most people also don't want to waste your time with a bunch of elementary questions. You also might want to think about if you really want all those 1000 lurkers posting. I'm always concerned that my posts, for example, dilute the discourse and are a distraction rather than an addition. And do you really want 1000 people asking for definitions of "currency depreciation based reflation efforts"?
In thinking about this, though, an idea occurs to me that might make the site more accessible: make the glossary interactive. Would it be possible to have the glossary words linked in the text, like those links to Amazon books a couple of weeks back. If you scrolled your mouse over any words that were in the glossary, a box would open with the definition. (Of course, this time, I would suggest linking to the definition of the same word, rather than a random word like with the Amazon titles. :D) And you could provide a "sandbox" area where people could ask the basic questions, and then add those items to the glossary, too. I don't know if this would just be a distraction rather than being useful, but it would have made things easier for me in the beginning.
This is exactly what we're working on. We are building an iTulip Wiki (you may have noticed an alpha version we tried for a while) that the forums will link to so you don't have to go to WikiPedia, whose definitions are going to be as reliable as ours anyway. At the same time, we'll get rid of the Amazon links that no one likes.
Don't ever feel stupid for asking questions. Somebody may answer them or not, probably depending upon what things are going on it their own lives or portfolios.
Here, here. The wise man of the iTulip Forums, Jim's both our most prolific poster and most patient explainer.
Jim Nickerson
08-15-07, 02:05 PM
Here, here. The wise man of the iTulip Forums, Jim's both our most prolific poster and most patient explainer.
If wise is as wise does, I ain't. jk is most prolific and along with a few others is always worth reading. As long as people are not putting up bullshit posts, or which there certainly are some as I see them, then usually someone likely will get around to answering them (bullshit is to be differentiated from humor). Don't play stupid it you aren't. No one I know likes sycophancy, at least not that I know personally, or even here, and there is some of that here from time to time.
If I had been thrown into something like iTulip 20 years ago, I cannot imagine what would have been my reaction. I was "thrown" into iTulip about 16 months ago, and I was immediately made aware of how much I did not know. After 16 months I have learned a bit more thanks to any number of individuals' willingness to explain a lot or to refer me to answers.
No one do I know that has real expertise got it overnight, and all people with expertise continue to build upon their knowledge.
There is a lot to be learned about investing and some of it can be from iTulip.
Andreuccio
08-15-07, 02:20 PM
Great suggestions...hope those can be implemented. I think there is a post somewhere that started aggregating iTulip specific glossary terms but can't remember where it was...but yes, it would be helpful for all of us neophytic, chartophobic, benthic gastropods lurking in the background...
Thanks.
I was thinking not only of iTulip specific terms but also general economic terms. For example, I had never heard of the "Discount Window" until I saw it on a post here a couple of days ago and looked it up in Wikipedia.
Regarding the investing/stock picking, is there a user guide? I want to buy on the TSX (Toronto), but I can't get a quote to come up.
Jim Nickerson
08-15-07, 03:32 PM
Regarding the investing/stock picking, is there a user guide? I want to buy on the TSX (Toronto), but I can't get a quote to come up.
lb,
1. If I had to start over, I don't know where I would begin to try to formally learn about investing. I expect someone here can refer you to a good starter book.
2. If I had money in an IRA, 401, and I knew nothing--which was my case for many years--my advice right now is I would go to cash until I knew enough to invest it.
3. Move to Canada, or ask your broker whether or not you can buy the stock through him? If you are interested in Canada for the sake of diversification, one could begin by looking at etfconnect.com for funds that invest in Canada.
4. Someone above asked about learning charting. I am on vacation and were I not, I would give you the title and author of a good book from which I have learned a good bit. If no one directs you, contact me after 21 Sept by email or PM (that would be Private Messaging vs. -Precious Metals), and I'll get you the book's name shortly. Sorry I can't do better than that.
I thought someone said iTulip did away with the Amazon links, but precious metals as I wrote above links to Amazon. Put a dash in front of whatever it is that links and it'll stop the link.
Jim, I appreciate your help, especially while on vacation. However, I was talking about the credit game.
Jim Nickerson
08-15-07, 10:02 PM
Jim, I appreciate your help, especially while on vacation. However, I was talking about the credit game.
Sorry not to have been of help. Let' see, where did I overlook "credit" or "credit game" in your post below, or did I miss it somewhere else?
Good luck.
Regarding the investing/stock picking, is there a user guide? I want to buy on the TSX (Toronto), but I can't get a quote to come up.
lb, i don't think you'll find a book to tell you what's going on in the credit markets- it moves too fast. the problems reside in credit products that are new: cdo's, clo's, siv's, conduits, abcp, cdo-squareds.... you just need to read everything you come across and follow links to read more. e.g. when i first heard the interview with jim finkel, i think it was in january, i didn't know what alt-a was. now "alt-a" seems basic and almost quaint compared to some of the newer terms. [for starters, i posted a good article on siv's, conduits and abcp in another thread with that title.]
Guys, I appreciate the sincerity, but the thread is called " iTulip Community Credits".
Is the trading system up?
Jim Nickerson
08-27-07, 10:26 AM
Is the trading system up?
Look on the Menu bar to the left for Stock Trader.
Look on the Menu bar to the right of that for Top Investors and after you enter you trades, it may take a while (it did for me) before your positions show up.
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