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View Full Version : Eric King Interviews Whistleblower Andrew Maguire And Adrian Douglas Of GATA



jtabeb
03-30-10, 11:20 AM
Wow, 100-1 leverage in the paper gold market. (So if this fails. does the price go up or down?)

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/eric-king-interview-whistleblower-andrew-maguire-and-adrian-douglas-gata

Recently, whistleblower Andrew Maguire gained substantial notoriety among LBMA circles after disclosing what could be an epic cabal of commodity price manipulation (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/whistleblower-exposes-jp-morgans-silver-manipulation-scheme), and was subsequently involved in what could be classified as an attempted hit-and-run (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/you-dont-mess-lbma-assasination-attempt-silver-market-manipulation-whistleblower?page=1). In a first media appearance, Andrew is interviewed in this exclusive with Eric King of King World News, where he is joined by GATA director Adrian Douglas, who also made ripples at the recent CFTC hearing in which he used the words of former Goldman analyst Jeffrey Christian against him (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/former-goldman-commodities-research-analyst-confirms-lmba-otc-gold-market-paper-gold-ponzi)in proving that the gold market is nothing but one big Ponzi, in which a run to deliverables would result in 99% unsecured claims (a 1 in 100 dilution).
As Eric King summarizes:

Andrew Maguire, independent metals trader turned whistleblower is in the center of a storm for exposing what could be the largest fraud in history involving countries, banks and government leaders. Adrian Douglas Board of Director from GATA, the man who Andrew reached out to also joins in this interview where they discuss a fraud so extraordinary and so unimaginable that it is the kind of thing that hollywood thrillers are made of. In this interview they also discuss the CFTC sponsored meeting on metals which was an unmitigated disaster because it additionally exposed the fraud on a grander scale. Thanks to GATA, Adrian and everyone else involved in helping to make this exclusive King World News interview possible.


Link to interview


http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/3/30_Andrew_Maguire_%26_Adrian_Douglass.html

lsa420
03-30-10, 01:19 PM
Oh great, the CFTC is corrupt AND incompetent. An excellent combination. And all this time I thought they were legit - like the SEC, perhaps?:confused:

ThePythonicCow
03-30-10, 03:22 PM
Wow, 100-1 leverage in the paper gold market. (So if this fails. does the price go up or down?)
http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/FSB/FSB068/x16719271.jpg
<s>If</s> When this manipulation fails, will you still remember your good 'ol buddies here at iTulip?

Any idea how long that fuse is?

jtabeb
03-30-10, 03:32 PM
http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/FSB/FSB068/x16719271.jpg
<s>If</s> When this manipulation fails, will you still remember your good 'ol buddies here at iTulip?

Any idea how long that fuse is?

I said end of March, but you know how that turned out. Then again. my birthday is coming up soon. Maybe the PTB want to give me a present for my birthday.:D

Fiat Currency
03-30-10, 04:48 PM
I said end of March, but you know how that turned out. Then again. my birthday is coming up soon. Maybe the PTB want to give me a present for my birthday.:D

2998

I doubt you'll get what you predicted for your birthday ... but here's wishing you a great one none-the-less !! :)

jtabeb
03-30-10, 05:09 PM
2998

I doubt you'll get what you predicted for your birthday ... but here's wishing you a great one none-the-less !! :)
Thanks man, that was really cool.:)

Spartacus
03-30-10, 05:21 PM
<img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif"/><img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif"/><img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif"/><img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif"/>
IF ONLY I could figure out how to get my hands on that restricted cash I'm not allowed to spend ....
<img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif"/>
<img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif"/>

'Tis most vexing ...

Rajiv
03-30-10, 05:38 PM
I believe that a large degree of leveraging is also occurring in the stock market, via naked selling, and manipulation on part of the market makers -- the entire FTD (Failure to Deliver) problem, as discussed on deepcapture.com by Patrick Byrne. This is particularly true, as almost nobody asks for their stock certificates, and the accounting of the stock trade paper trail is left to the broker for "convenience"

See two interesting linked articles by Judd Bagley
Prepare to be astounded (http://www.deepcapture.com/prepare-to-be-astounded/)


I’ve got everything ready to go for my next post, save one thing: the most current stock delivery failures data (http://www.sec.gov/foia/docs/failsdata.htm), corresponding to the second half of January, which the SEC was supposed to have made available yesterday.

I’m particularly eager to get that batch, because it has the capacity to confirm or rule-out my ability to predict the future.

See, I believe I know, to within a few percentage points, how some of that delivery failures data — up to this point supposedly known only to the DTCC and SEC — will read.

But instead of going mad waiting for it to be posted, I’m going to very publicly make my prediction here and now, and then follow up with the actual numbers once published. I shall then take my clairvoyant victory lap around the tiny office where I sit.

Therefore, I do predict the following:

With a margin of error of +/-2.5%, Shares of Sears Holdings Corporation (NASDAQ:SHLD) will be shown to have experienced CNS delivery failures of the following magnitudes on the indicated dates:

1/29/2010 879,444
1/28/2010 873,222
1/27/2010 870,570
1/26/2010 851,904
1/25/2010 848,742
1/22/2010 865,266
1/21/2010 857,106
1/20/2010 1,535,508
1/19/2010 1,540,914

Please check back often between today and tomorrow (or whenever the SEC gets around to posting the final numbers) to learn how accurate my predictions turned out to be, how I arrived at them, and why this is very bad news for our capital markets.

Cataloging Sears stock manipulation (http://www.deepcapture.com/cataloging-sears-stock-manipulation/)


Most of the examinations of stock manipulation published here on deepcapture.com take place after the fact, the damage being done. However, we’ve become aware of instances of apparently illegal, manipulative trading in several companies’ stocks, happening right now, which we have the ability to monitor and report on in nearly real time.

I’ll start with Sears Holdings Corporation (NASDAQ:SHLD).

A few months ago, an unusual trading pattern in shares of Sears emerged, in which large blocks of shares change hands within minutes of deep in-the-money call options equivalent to precisely the same numbers of shares in these blocks. This behavior is consistent with the illegal “reset” transaction described in the enforcement case brought by the SEC against naked short seller Steven M. Hazan (http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2009/34-60441.pdf):
“…a market participant who has a “fail-to-deliver” position in a threshold security buys shares of that security while simultaneously selling short-term, deep in-the-money call options to – or buying short-term, deep in-the-money put options from – the counterparty to the share purchase. The purchase of shares creates the illusion that the market participant has satisfied the close out obligation of Reg SHO. However, the shares that are apparently purchased in the reset transactions are never actually delivered to the purchaser because on the day after executing the reset, the option is either exercised (if a call) or assigned (if a put), transferring the shares back to the party that apparently sold them the previous day. This paired transaction allows the market participant with the fail-to-deliver position to effectively borrow the stock for a day, in order to appear to have satisfied the close out requirement of Rule 203(b)(3).”
If you want to see each of these reset transactions in detail, you can do so here (http://antisocialmedia.net/shldtable.html). But if you’re content with the bottom lines, take a look at the following table, keeping in mind each call option contract gives the buyer the right to purchase 100 shares of the underlying stock (meaning, these trades were undeniably “matched” to one another).

<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr height="60" valign="bottom" align="center" bgcolor="#cccccc"> <td width="91">Date</td> <td width="71">Call option contracts</td> <td width="81">Equities block size</td> <td rowspan="21" width="3" bgcolor="#000000">
</td> <td width="64">Date</td> <td width="73">Call option contracts</td> <td width="87">Equities block size</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/3/09</td> <td>6,166</td> <td>616,600</td> <td>1/4/10</td> <td>10,374</td> <td>1,037,400</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/4/09</td> <td>6,194</td> <td>619,400</td> <td>1/5/10</td> <td>10,368</td> <td>1,036,800</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/7/09</td> <td>6,369</td> <td>636,900</td> <td>1/6/10</td> <td>10,610</td> <td>1,061,000</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/8/09</td> <td>6,668</td> <td>666,800</td> <td>1/7/10</td> <td>10,972</td> <td>1,097,200</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/9/09</td> <td>7,287</td> <td>728,700</td> <td>1/8/10</td> <td>16,032</td> <td>1,603,200</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/10/09</td> <td>7,749</td> <td>774,900</td> <td>1/11/10</td> <td>15,106</td> <td>1,510,600</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/11/09</td> <td>7,958</td> <td>795,800</td> <td>1/12/10</td> <td>15,050</td> <td>1,505,000</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/14/09</td> <td>8,376</td> <td>837,600</td> <td>1/13/10</td> <td>15,107</td> <td>1,510,700</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/15/09</td> <td>8,387</td> <td>838,700</td> <td>1/14/10</td> <td>15,054</td> <td>1,505,400</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/16/09</td> <td>8,876</td> <td>887,600</td> <td width="64">1/19/10</td> <td>8,403</td> <td width="87">840,300</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/17/09</td> <td>8,654</td> <td>865,400</td> <td width="64">1/20/10</td> <td>8,483</td> <td width="87">848,300</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/18/09</td> <td>4,767</td> <td>476,700</td> <td width="64">1/21/10</td> <td>8,321</td> <td width="87">832,100</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/21/09</td> <td>6,598</td> <td>659,800</td> <td width="64">1/22/10</td> <td>8,352</td> <td width="87">835,200</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/22/09</td> <td>6,918</td> <td>691,800</td> <td width="64">1/25/10</td> <td>8,535</td> <td width="87">853,500</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/23/09</td> <td>7,433</td> <td>743,300</td> <td width="64">1/26/10</td> <td>8,561</td> <td width="87">856,100</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/24/09</td> <td>8,444</td> <td>884,400</td> <td width="64">1/27/10</td> <td>8,622</td> <td width="87">862,200</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/28/09</td> <td>8,773</td> <td>877,300</td> <td width="64">1/28/10</td> <td>8,490</td> <td width="87">849,000</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/29/09</td> <td>9,087</td> <td>908,700</td> <td width="64">1/29/10</td> <td>8,326</td> <td width="87">832,600</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/30/09</td> <td>9,459</td> <td>945,900</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">12/31/09</td> <td>9,830</td> <td>938,000</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Take a look at how these blocks trades appear when charted.

http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-300x187.jpg (http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades.jpg)

SHLD matched block trades: click to enlarge

Looking at the relationship between these matched blocks and the delivery failure data currently available suggests the blocks are a pretty reliable predictor of delivery failures reported two days later.

http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-fails-300x187.jpg (http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-fails.jpg)

SHLD matched block trades and delivery failures: click to enlarge

Moving fails back two trading days we see just how reliable a predictor these matched block trades really are.

http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-offset-fails-300x187.jpg (http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-offset-fails.jpg)

SHLD matched blocks and failed trades, offest -2 days: click to enlarge.

On average, SHLD fails are roughly 102% of these matched blocks. Given that relationship, I feel quite confident predicting how the as-yet-unreleased SHLD delivery failures will appear (note the dashed line).

http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-fails-predicted-300x187.jpg (http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-content/uploads/shld-block-trades-fails-predicted.jpg)

SHLD matched block trades and offset delivery failures with prediction: click to enlarge

Now for the good and bad news inherent to this situation.

The good news is: this unusual market activity is fairly easy to spot.

The bad news is: despite being easy to spot, in recent months multiple companies have come under identical attack, suggesting whoever is responsible is not too concerned about the consequences of overtly violating the securities laws…a familiar situation for anybody who’s followed deepcapture.com for any length of time.

I’ll have more on this subject as soon as the SEC fails data are released, so stay tuned.

I’ve astounded even myself! (http://www.deepcapture.com/ive-astounded-even-myself/)


Last week I dared to predict (http://www.deepcapture.com/prepare-to-be-astounded/) the number of then unreleased delivery failures in shares of Sears Holdings (NASDAQ:SHLD). The figures I ultimately settled upon (after two minor tweaks in the days to follow) were:

1/29/2010 879,444
1/28/2010 873,222
1/27/2010 870,570
1/26/2010 851,904
1/25/2010 848,742
1/22/2010 865,266
1/21/2010 857,106
1/20/2010 1,535,508
1/19/2010 1,540,914

This morning, the SEC having yet to release the numbers, I explained the basis for my prediction (http://www.deepcapture.com/cataloging-sears-stock-manipulation/), which is in simple terms, based on a pattern of apparently manipulative naked short “reset” transactions the Deep Capture team has observed in SHLD, and how those trades consistently predict how many shares of SHLD will fail to deliver after two days.
Well, literally moments after I published my explanation, the SEC released the numbers (http://www.sec.gov/foia/failsreports/cnsfails201001b.zip).

I asserted that my prediction would be accurate to within +/-2.5%. I’m embarrassed to reveal that in the end, my predictions were on average accurate to within 2.55%.

Sorry. I’ll try harder next time http://www.deepcapture.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif .

For the record, here’s a table comparing my predictions and the actual numbers.

<table cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <col width="84"> <col width="64"> <col span="3" width="64"> <tbody> <tr height="20" bgcolor="#cccccc"> <td height="20" width="84">
date
</td> <td width="64">
predicted
</td> <td width="64">
actual
</td> <td width="64">
difference
</td> <td width="64">
percent
</td> </tr> <tr height="21"> <td height="21" align="right"> 1/19/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 1,540,914
</td> <td align="right"> 1,566,164
</td> <td align="right"> 25,250
</td> <td align="right"> 1.61%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/20/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 1,535,508
</td> <td align="right"> 1,498,938
</td> <td align="right"> 36,570
</td> <td align="right"> 2.44%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/21/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 857,106
</td> <td align="right"> 910,786
</td> <td align="right"> 53,680
</td> <td align="right"> 5.89%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/22/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 865,266
</td> <td align="right"> 914,056
</td> <td align="right"> 48,790
</td> <td align="right"> 5.34%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/25/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 848,742
</td> <td align="right"> 854,491
</td> <td align="right"> 5,749
</td> <td align="right"> 0.67%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/26/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 851,904
</td> <td align="right"> 846,268
</td> <td align="right"> 5,636
</td> <td align="right"> 0.67%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/27/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 870,570
</td> <td align="right"> 851,094
</td> <td align="right"> 19,476
</td> <td align="right"> 2.29%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/28/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 873,222
</td> <td align="right"> 851,705
</td> <td align="right"> 21,517
</td> <td align="right"> 2.53%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20" align="right"> 1/29/2010
</td> <td align="right"> 879,444
</td> <td align="right"> 866,606
</td> <td align="right"> 12,838
</td> <td align="right"> 1.48%
</td> </tr> <tr height="20"> <td height="20">
</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan="2">
Average:
</td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#ffff66"> 2.55%
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
At this point, the most relevant question is: will the SEC do anything about this obvious violation of the law?

Sadly, I predict that no, the SEC will not.

The next most relevant question is: will the manipulator continue manipulating, knowing he or she has been spotted?

Spartacus
03-31-10, 09:04 PM
bullion?
junk Silver bags?

stock: Pan American, Hecla, Silver Standard, Silvercorp, Bear Creek, ... etc ...

???

I've owned bullion and Silver Standard and Pan American since 2002, added a bit of each over the years.

LargoWinch
03-31-10, 09:23 PM
bullion?
junk Silver bags?

stock: Pan American, Hecla, Silver Standard, Silvercorp, Bear Creek, ... etc ...

???

I've owned bullion and Silver Standard and Pan American since 2002, added a bit of each over the years.

Sparta, what about Oil?

don
03-31-10, 09:24 PM
ws Coverage of the Maguire 'Whistleblower' Car Accident in the States (http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2010/03/news-coverage-of-maguire-car-accident.html)



I received this news story from an astute reader.

I also asked a GATA news source why Mr. Maguire had not discussed the accident in his interview with King World News. He is reported to be 'very concerned' for his safety and is reluctant to discuss this aspect of his coming forward. I think this is understandable. It must be very hard to do this sort of thing.

The mainstream media in the US is very slow to pursue investigative pieces, with a few notable exceptions. It has in too many cases become an extension of the corporations that own the once proud newsrooms.


Jessie Cafe Americain

Spartacus
03-31-10, 09:29 PM
Sparta, what about Oil?

Hi, hope you're well

Before getting into Silver I spent a LOT of time at the University of Toronto libraries, got materials from York U & others through interlibrary loan.

I convinced myself Silver was undervalued.

I was so, so tempted to get into oil on many occasions. It was just too complex for me to analyze properly.

I spent 2 years test-trading what I thought would happen and I consistently made the wrong calls. Petroleum is just not for me.

LargoWinch
03-31-10, 09:33 PM
Hi, hope you're well


Thanks Sparta; hope you are well too ;)


...seems like the eye of the hurricane right now. What do your Spidey sense says?

Spartacus
03-31-10, 09:56 PM
Thanks Sparta; hope you are well too ;)

...seems like the eye of the hurricane right now. What do your Spidey sense says?

believe it or not, I'm mentally prepared for another fall in Silver. This guy says the regulators did not know at all what to look for ... after all that Ted Butler has told them, and supposedly they "investigated" Silver for more than a year, it's been more than 2 years since they started that investigation and they still have done nothing ... that does not give me reason to cheer.

The Silver manipulation story sounds good - it's good that it may get more exposure, and it looks good that CFTC no longer seems to be putting out denial after denial after denial.

I'm about to put a little more into Silver, but not a lot. The manipulation story has been out there for a long time, and it's possible that there are a lot of leveraged longs, in addition to the naked shorts that Maguire is talking about.

I did some research into Toronto real estate and Canadian banking, and I was not too concerned before about a housing crash being really bad. I have been expecting modest price reductions (10 to 20%) and a significant reduction in the number of sales.

Now, after talking with some RE agents & mortgage brokers, and hearing how much they sound like the stuff I was reading from the US in late 2005 I won't be surprised if there's a 30% price reduction.

LargoWinch
03-31-10, 10:11 PM
I did some research into Toronto real estate and Canadian banking, and I was not too concerned before about a housing crash being really bad. I have been expecting modest price reductions (10 to 20%) and a significant reduction in the number of sales.

Now, after talking with some RE agents & mortgage brokers, and hearing how much they sound like the stuff I was reading from the US in late 2005 I won't be surprised if there's a 30% price reduction.

I entierely agree with you sir Sparta.

Canada did not - YET - experience its housing bust...but it is coming. It is coming as surely as sunrise.

I rent.

But 2-bedroom houses built in the early 1900s sell for $800,000+ in less than 48hours here in Toronto. Aren't people reading a tiny bit of what is going on in the US? :eek:.

Bubble RE time. Gold time. Cash time; this one gonna hurt.

santafe2
03-31-10, 10:16 PM
Wow, 100-1 leverage in the paper gold market. (So if this fails. does the price go up or down?)

Two words: Buying opportunity.

doom&gloom
03-31-10, 11:14 PM
KWN has now been down yesterday and today.... hmmm...

DToM67
03-31-10, 11:44 PM
KWN has now been down yesterday and today.... hmmm...

Just had trouble getting on, then... voilà! Listened to the whole thing. My guess is they're having a lot of traffic.:D

This is some wild stuff. I would love to know the names of the two as-of-yet unnamed entities mentioned by Maguire.

Buying opportunity? Definite reinforcement that the physical is undervalued. How long can they keep this up? 100-1 sheesh!

icm63
04-01-10, 12:14 AM
LBMA..

Are BullionVault.com connected to them in any way ??

jtabeb
04-01-10, 12:35 AM
LBMA..

Are BullionVault.com connected to them in any way ??

Word to the wise BV is NOT PHYSical. Take your funds out now and get physical so as not to get SCREWED later. That what all these things are. Physical Rules and paper drools.

Just saying, if you need more proof, then you'll just have to wait for your failure to deliver to show up. (Not KIDDING)

thisandthat.nowandth
04-01-10, 01:20 AM
From Ed Steer today:


In the wee hours of Tuesday morning, Eric King of King World News sent me the interview headlined above... and linked below. Because the interview runs about 40 minutes in length... and I already had a pile of stories in my Tuesday report... I decided not to run it until today.

But I did listen to the whole thing as soon as I got it... and it was a shocker to say the least! I called Eric on the telephone as soon as I got up in the morning... and he told me that shortly after he posted the interview, his website had been hacked and about the last third of the interview had been deliberately erased from one of ISP's servers. It was the part where Andrew Maguire and GATA's Adrian Douglas started talking about things like "fraud", "treason" and "financial terrorism".

http://www.caseyresearch.com/displayGsd.php

jtabeb
04-01-10, 02:07 AM
From Ed Steer today:



http://www.caseyresearch.com/displayGsd.php

You couldn't make this shit up if you tried! (and were not! that's the scary ******* part)

ThePythonicCow
04-01-10, 02:33 AM
Word to the wise BV is NOT PHYSical. Take your funds out now and get physical so as not to get SCREWED later. That what all these things are. Physical Rules and paper drools.

Just saying, if you need more proof, then you'll just have to wait for your failure to deliver to show up. (Not KIDDING)
iTulip has advertised BV and I believe that EJ has recommended them.

Yes, we know of your fondness for physical gold, the stuff you can hold in your hands. That fondness is probably more notorious around these parts than my cowness :D.

Yes, BV is clearly not physical in-hand gold.

But have you any additional information to impart that would cast doubt on BV's gold? BV does claim to have and hold allocated bars. Are you suggesting they're lying, or are you suggesting that their gold might be (for all intents and purposes) stolen?

(No, I am not denying that such theft is impossible. Human history is full of gold theft, sometimes in immense quantities.)

ThePythonicCow
04-01-10, 02:37 AM
You couldn't make this shit up if you tried! (and were not! that's the scary ******* part)
Hmm... I'm starting to get scared. Perhaps I have just answered my question in my previous post just above.

icm63
04-01-10, 02:44 AM
WHat this daily BullionVault (BV) audit then ? Smoke and mirrors

http://www.bullionvault.com/audit.do

They are a member of the LBMA.

NO matter my money is out of there, and I am off to Perth Mint or buy hold in hands stuff?

Any issues with Perth Mint ??

jtabeb
04-01-10, 02:58 AM
WHat this daily BullionVault (BV) audit then ? Smoke and mirrors

http://www.bullionvault.com/audit.do

They are a member of the LBMA.

NO matter my money is out of there, and I am off to Perth Mint or buy hold in hands stuff?

Any issues with Perth Mint ??


Hands MAN!!!!!!!!!!

Perth mint Same! Kitco storage account Same!

Same problem as the ETFs you can't be sure you'll get it when and if you ever want it or need it. Would cash settlement work for you? (Yeah, I thought NOT).



Dude, if your are GOING TO BUY IT, OWN IT AND HOLD IT, For GOD's sake?!?


Okay?

How much more LACK of trust do you need.

Capice?

Did I mention

Bigger than MADOFF:confused:

Ponzi:eek:

100-1 leverage, :eek::eek::eek:

Anything else I HAVE TO ADD?!?!?!?!??!?
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad:

jtabeb
04-01-10, 03:04 AM
iTulip has advertised BV and I believe that EJ has recommended them.

Yes, we know of your fondness for physical gold, the stuff you can hold in your hands. That fondness is probably more notorious around these parts than my cowness :D.

Yes, BV is clearly not physical in-hand gold.

But have you any additional information to impart that would cast doubt on BV's gold? BV does claim to have and hold allocated bars. Are you suggesting they're lying, or are you suggesting that their gold might be (for all intents and purposes) stolen?

(No, I am not denying that such theft is impossible. Human history is full of gold theft, sometimes in immense quantities.)

EJ ALSO recommend to Go long cough*UNG*cough and now says ... well see this post.
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=154342#post154342
so I would say his record has not been stellar.

If you are going to play the role of the cocky asshole, which I AM, you'd better be able to back it up, which I CAN.

My record has been EARLY, CLEAR, CONSISTENT, and CORRECT (beaten the Itulip model portfolio by 400% since inception).

Questions?

(I don't know SHIT about BV, except they are a custodial holder that WILL ONLY PAY OUT IN BULLION IF YOU ARE FORCED TO EXPATRIATE. That's why I would never use them. If that last part doesn't sound fishy to anyone here, fine.
To me it smells like a flaming turd. And it sounds fishy too!)

ThePythonicCow
04-01-10, 03:33 AM
(I don't know SHIT about BV, except they are a custodial holder that WILL ONLY PAY OUT IN BULLION IF YOU ARE FORCED TO EXPATRIATE.
From the BV web site:

Yes - BullionVault allows physical withdrawal of gold, but only in special circumstances. The most likely case is when your bank is no longer a practicable recipient of your funds - as might be the case after political or economic upheaval in your country of residence.
..

These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration.
You were spot on, jtabeb.

Four letter word ... four letter word ... four letter word.

icm63
04-01-10, 03:40 AM
Dude, if your are GOING TO BUY IT, OWN IT AND HOLD IT, For GOD's sake?!?


Okay?

How much more LACK of trust do you need.

Capice?

Did I mention

Bigger than MADOFF:confused:

Ponzi:eek:

100-1 leverage, :eek::eek::eek:

Anything else I HAVE TO ADD?!?!?!?!??!?

I HEAR YEEE

I am going to get my stuff here : www.newzealandmint.com (http://www.newzealandmint.com) and put it under the bed

Sharky
04-01-10, 04:27 AM
But have you any additional information to impart that would cast doubt on BV's gold? BV does claim to have and hold allocated bars. Are you suggesting they're lying, or are you suggesting that their gold might be (for all intents and purposes) stolen?

I did business with BV for some time, then closed my account about a year ago. The reason I did so was not because I didn't believe they have the gold as they say they do. I did a fair amount of due diligence before opening my account: I read their audit reports in detail, reviewed their vaulting agreements, etc, etc.

The concern that eventually arose for me is similar to keeping valuables in a safe deposit box. If the government knows where that kind of thing is located, then there's nothing in principle to stop them from intervening at some point in some way: preventing sales, confiscating holdings, preventing or intercepting funds transfers, etc. Even with allocated ownership, and even though BV is not a US company, there is still tremendous political pressure that could be applied.

There is also, of course, some (small) risk that the people running BV are crooks, and they have put together a very elaborate fraud. I was willing to accept those risks for quite a while, but after the amount of market intervention and associated obvious government fraud and deception reached insane levels last year, the situation fundamentally changed for me; I changed my mind and pulled out.

As jtabeb says, if you don't hold it, you don't truly own it.


I am going to get my stuff here : www.newzealandmint.com (http://www.newzealandmint.com) and put it under the bed

I've dealt with them. Even though they are a private company and not government-sponsored as their name might imply, they are a first-class act; totally professional; highly recommended. One thing I don't like is that their bullion coins (the "Kiwi") are not legal tender. Also, they are packaged individually in silly plastic pouches with cardboard that make them look like something you'd find in a tourist shop. However, for those of us living in NZ or Oz, though, hopefully they will be a little more liquid than something like US Buffaloes (only 0.999+ coins are viable here; anything less gets hit with the 12.5% GST tax).

ThePythonicCow
04-01-10, 04:33 AM
Your thinking on BV makes sense to me, Sharky. Thanks.

Rajiv
04-01-10, 09:57 AM
As jtabeb says, if you don't hold it, you don't truly own it.

The same thing can be said for stock ownership. If you do not have the authenticated stock certificate in your custody, with yourself as the registered owner of the stock in the company records, then you are really not an owner of the stock.

pianodoctor
04-01-10, 11:10 AM
Wow, 100-1 leverage in the paper gold market. (So if this fails. does the price go up or down?)

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/eric-king-interview-whistleblower-andrew-maguire-and-adrian-douglas-gata

http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/3/30_Andrew_Maguire_%26_Adrian_Douglass.html

I tried these links when this thread first appeared but the links were dead. Got error message 'connection was reset'. I thought, "OK, tech glitch, I'll try later". Here it is 4/1 and it's still dead.

Am I the only one experiencing this? No one here else seems to be mentioning having the problem.

Rajiv
04-01-10, 11:15 AM
they work fine for me - it could be that the length of the url is causing the problem for you by splitting the url across line breaks.

pianodoctor
04-01-10, 11:30 AM
Hm, thanks for the info. It doesn't seem to be the problem for me though. Same problem if typed in manually. The link TO Zerohedge works fine. But I can't link to the interview from there nor by the direct link. But at least now I know it's a problem from here but not necessarily for others.

Edit: OK I solved the problem. I just went to the KingWorldNews main page and found the interview from there.

globaleconomicollaps
04-01-10, 06:04 PM
I HEAR YEEE

I am going to get my stuff here : www.newzealandmint.com (http://www.newzealandmint.com) and put it under the bed

Have you seen these guys with the long sticks poking all over your yard? They come into my yard about 2-3 AM and knock over the trash cans. They have been doing a pretty good job aerating the lawn. It's not a problem for me because I have the wife stay home with the baby all day and we shoo them out together at night.

-G

Spartacus
04-01-10, 07:19 PM
FYI, CEF is regularly audited. Their bullion is held by Scotiabank, which purchased Mocatta, one of the bad, bad, bad guys in the Hunt fiasco (Mocatta insiders were alleged to be instrumental in the illegal rule changes), and Mocatta is an LBMA member but

1. CEF is physically audited every year

2. Ted Butler has lain low on Scotiabank for some time now, after being hot on their tails for more than a couple of years.

3. Ted (and Puplava, Eric King and Dave Morgan, whose letter I got for several years a while back) never had anything bad to say about CEF, at least during the time I listened to them.

The Sprott fund might also be a good alternative.

I don't know how US citizens or residents would buy CEF or Sprott's fund.

And if you want a stock, Silver Standard was the mining company that seemed to see the value in Silver more than any other. They were the ones that AFAIK started the whole idea of accumulating in-ground resources and not producing them while the asset was undervalued. Unlike, for example, PAAS and Hecla and Coeur (basically any Silver producer) that was shoveling it out of the ground at far below its "true" value. (talking half my own book - I bought the PAAS before I realized this, and now I don't want to incur the tax to switch to SSRI.)


Hands MAN!!!!!!!!!!

Perth mint Same! Kitco storage account Same!

Anything else I HAVE TO ADD?!?!?!?!??!?
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad:

Don't keep it all bottled up inside, please tell me how you REALLY feel.
<img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif"><img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif"><img src="http://itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif">

ThePythonicCow
04-01-10, 07:57 PM
I don't know how US citizens or residents would buy CEF
CEF (and it's all-gold brother, GTU) trade on the American Stock Exchange (AMEX), so are available through ordinary stock brokers to Americans.

flintlock
04-01-10, 08:23 PM
The same thing can be said for stock ownership. If you do not have the authenticated stock certificate in your custody, with yourself as the registered owner of the stock in the company records, then you are really not an owner of the stock.

Holding large amounts of physical gold has risks too. The same way driving through the wrong neighborhood in a Bentley does. People will notice when you are grilling steaks while they are boiling their shoes for dinner. Yeah, yeah, you'll all keep it on the low down right?. Until some jealous girlfriend rats you out and your life becomes like a Guy Ritchie movie.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/u6-NHK-GzwU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/u6-NHK-GzwU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

leegs
04-01-10, 08:24 PM
What is the current 'average' premium for physical gold, say coins, relative to spot price? How does this compare to say 1 year ago.

EJ
04-01-10, 09:34 PM
Gold can be manipulated like anything else for short periods of time.

Who cares?

For every 1000 articles about gold you will find one that sticks to the simple truth.

The gold manipulation story is a tried and true distraction from a far more damning story: gold has outperformed stocks and bonds for a decade.

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldvsstocks2001-2009.gif
Gold has out-performed stocks every year since 2001 when we bought it (http://www.itulip.com/gold.htm).

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldenlieyearly199802008.gif
Not only has gold outperformed socks but it has done so with less volatility than stocks.




Why? Because of interest rates?

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldvsrates1973-2009.gif
No. Gold does not always correlate to interest rates.




Because the market has been volatile?

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldvsvolatility1990-2009.gif
No. Gold does not always correlate to market volatility.




Because the dollar is weakening?

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldvsdollar1973-2009NOTES.gif
No. Sometimes gold correlates to the dollar and at other times it doesn't.




Because of inflation?

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldvsCPI1973-2009.gif
No. Sometimes gold correlates to CPI and at other times it doesn't.





Because gold is manipulated by investment banks?

No. That can only explain short term price movements.

The gold price manipulation story is as old and tired as the gold bubble story.

http://www.itulip.com/images2/goldbubbles2001-2009.gif
Gold has been a "bubble" in the mainstream business press at least three times since 2006.





Recent stories of gold price manipulation and reports of a murder attempt on the life of a supposed gold manipulation scheme whistle blower do serve one purpose: they reinforce the view of 95% of the investing public that gold investing is the realm of crackpots and conspiracy theorists.

The simple and elegant truth of gold investing as the perfect hedge for government mismanagement of the economy is lost in the mayhem created by the gold investing community itself. Can this possibly have any other result than reducing the pool of potential retail buyers and thus the price?

We have met the enemy and he is us.

LargoWinch
04-01-10, 10:41 PM
What is the current 'average' premium for physical gold, say coins, relative to spot price? How does this compare to say 1 year ago.

to my knowledge leegs, the premium varies between 1.5% to 2.5% and remain unchanged since last year.

pksubs
04-01-10, 10:50 PM
Just a thought : you chart the price of gold against single variables each time, $, CPI, volatility, etc, and find timeslices where the price of gold does not correlate. What that proves is that gold does not correlate 100% with one variable, but it certainly leaves open the possibility that gold does correlate to a combination of two(or more) variables - let's say dollar and volatility. At some point the gold trend due to dollar movement is stronger and overwhelms the trend due to volatility. This looks like a gold price mis-correlation to volatility but it really is not, it's gold being moved _more_ by a strong dollar trend as opposed to a weak volatility trend, and maybe in the opposite direction. I'm sure you've thought things through in this way, any comments ? The problem with describing gold as the "perfect hedge for government mismanagement of the economy" is it makes gold investing very very subjective. I might get bent out of shape by Obamacare, while someone else thinks it's a great idea, either way it's hard to play it as an _investor_.

Disclaimer : I'm just using $ and volatility to illustrate my point, and not picking them as the prime reasons for gold movement.

ThePythonicCow
04-02-10, 01:13 AM
Can this possibly have any other result than reducing the pool of potential retail buyers and thus the price? For those of us who got to iTulip a little bit later than yourself EJ, this price suppression is a good thing :).

Your comment though does suggest to me that TPTB might not mind all that much that some odd sounding goldbugs and (in the ordinary view) crackpots have been running around obsessing about gold and gold manipulation since like forever.

If you're doing something disreputable, and if you can arrange so that only fools (in the eyes of a "normal" person) are criticizing you, then criticizing you looks pretty foolish.

gnk
04-02-10, 11:20 AM
EJ, I can understand your frustration about how conspiracy theories, however legitimate, may turn off the retail segment from Gold.

But I think it may be irrelevant. The US Gov't and Wall Street are paper driven. They will do whatever it takes to maintain the paper ponzi machine; including disparaging those that ask for transparency.

Yet other governments are acting differently. What do you think about this:




ICBC, World Gold Council, Join Hands

BEIJING—The World Gold Council has signed an agreement with Industrial & Commercial Bank of China Ltd. to cooperate on developing new gold investment products and programs for the Chinese lender's clients, council chairman Ian Telfer said in an interview.

The arrangement with ICBC, China's largest bank by assets, is designed to promote continued strong demand for gold in China at a time when the country's recent rapid growth in gold production seems likely to slow, creating more need for imports, Mr. Telfer said Wednesday.

"The demand is out there and we're going to help [ICBC] create vehicles that people will find interesting so that they can accumulate gold," said Mr. Telfer, who is also chairman of Vancouver-based Goldcorp (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=GG) Inc., one of the world's largest gold-mining companies.

China's demand for gold has grown an average of 13% annually for the last five years, reaching about 443 metric tons last year, second only to India. About 80% of China's annual gold consumption goes toward making jewelry. The World Gold Council, established by a group of large mining companies to stimulate demand for the metal, wants to increase demand for gold in China for investment purposes.



Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303338304575155580368205978.html?m od=WSJ_Markets_section_Commodities

So China is *encouraging* it's people to buy gold. Why is that? My view is that gold will increasingly play a role in international financial settlements/trade in the future. China needs to ramp up it's gold acquisition, and one way is to have its population increase its purchases of gold. This is being done because these small individual purchases do not directly affect the market price - they are not official buyers like the Chinese PBoC is. The Chinese gov't, thru SAFE, is likely still buying gold (at a discount) from their own domestic production - yet again, a method that does not directly affect the markets.

What is China's goal here? I'm guessing that one day China will "encourage" its people to sell their gold to the PBoC, at a decent price, then voila, the PBoC's gold reserves skyrocket. China's short term goal is to get as much gold as possible within its borders - one way or the other, and with minimal impact on the markets so as not to push the price up during their acquisition mode. This gold will eventually make it's way into the PBoC's vaults. A mere balance sheet entry later, and China's percentage of gold to forex reserves skyrockets.

What is going on in the US? The US gov't belittles gold and those that chase it, and we have shops sprouting up like weeds that will gladly take our "useless" gold.

This troubles me. Who is being more strategic long term? The US gov't or the Chinese gov't?

jtabeb
04-02-10, 01:32 PM
EJ, I can understand your frustration about how conspiracy theories, however legitimate, may turn off the retail segment from Gold.

But I think it may be irrelevant. The US Gov't and Wall Street are paper driven. They will do whatever it takes to maintain the paper ponzi machine; including disparaging those that ask for transparency.

Yet other governments are acting differently. What do you think about this:



Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303338304575155580368205978.html?m od=WSJ_Markets_section_Commodities

So China is *encouraging* it's people to buy gold. Why is that? My view is that gold will increasingly play a role in international financial settlements/trade in the future. China needs to ramp up it's gold acquisition, and one way is to have its population increase its purchases of gold. This is being done because these small individual purchases do not directly affect the market price - they are not official buyers like the Chinese PBoC is. The Chinese gov't, thru SAFE, is likely still buying gold (at a discount) from their own domestic production - yet again, a method that does not directly affect the markets.

What is China's goal here? I'm guessing that one day China will "encourage" its people to sell their gold to the PBoC, at a decent price, then voila, the PBoC's gold reserves skyrocket. China's short term goal is to get as much gold as possible within its borders - one way or the other, and with minimal impact on the markets so as not to push the price up during their acquisition mode. This gold will eventually make it's way into the PBoC's vaults. A mere balance sheet entry later, and China's percentage of gold to forex reserves skyrockets.

What is going on in the US? The US gov't belittles gold and those that chase it, and we have shops sprouting up like weeds that will gladly take our "useless" gold.

This troubles me. Who is being more strategic long term? The US gov't or the Chinese gov't?

If China does what you describe (and I think they WILL), they are setting up the exact same foundation that supports the EURO Structure. (The euro zone marks-to-market their gold reserves on a monthly basis). The initial allocation of gold reserves supporting the euro was 15%. They have SOLD GOLD and issued more Euro currency and you know what the percentage of gold reserves backing the Euro is now? OVER 60%!

How?

The market price of GOLD ROSE FASTER than currency issuance and in fact rose fast enough to also mitiage the effects of gold sales. Talk about brilliant.

I wish we HAD any of these wonderful develpments in our currency zone.

//Sigh//

gnk
04-02-10, 02:31 PM
I wish we HAD any of these wonderful develpments in our currency zone.

//Sigh//

Having the world's reserve currency and largest military budget has a lot to do with our current view and use of gold.

However, eventually Triffin's dilemma rears it's ugly head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

Thus, we were able to postpone the problem of The Triffin Dilemma with Nixon closing the gold window and entering a new paper debt system. But now our paper debt has reached critical mass. Servicing and expanding it has become questionable. You can't stop without killing the economy. Catch 22.

I can understand going from gold to paper... but.. once paper reaches peak...

What next?

FRED
04-02-10, 03:33 PM
Having the world's reserve currency and largest military budget has a lot to do with our current view and use of gold.

However, eventually Triffin's dilemma rears it's ugly head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

Thus, we were able to postpone the problem of The Triffin Dilemma with Nixon closing the gold window and entering a new paper debt system. But now our paper debt has reached critical mass. Servicing and expanding it has become questionable. You can't stop without killing the economy. Catch 22.

I can understand going from gold to paper... but.. once paper reaches peak...

What next?

Funny you should mention Triffin. We use his name in the headline of the section of the upcoming "Forecasting in Hell" that covers capital flows.

Certainly there was a Triffin crisis in 2008.


http://www.itulip.com/images2/foecastinghell4.gif


The US pulled out of it with the addition of several trillion dollars of new debt to the Fed's and the federal balance sheet. Was that the last time?

bill
04-02-10, 03:45 PM
I can understand going from gold to paper... but.. once paper reaches peak...

What next?

Paper needs a new resource game and its not just oil.
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33297#poststop

jtabeb
04-02-10, 06:28 PM
I can understand going from gold to paper... but.. once paper reaches peak...

What next?

I would argue, it's back to gold. Not in a Gold Standard way, but in the same manner as the Europeans have (and I think the Chinese will)

LargoWinch
04-02-10, 08:37 PM
Funny you should mention Triffin. We use his name in the headline of the section of the upcoming "Forecasting in Hell" that covers capital flows.

Certainly there was a Triffin crisis in 2008.


http://www.itulip.com/images2/foecastinghell4.gif


The US pulled out of it with the addition of several trillion dollars of new debt to the Fed's and the federal balance sheet. Was that the last time?

Is it me FRED, or it looks like the patient suffered a heart attack? ;)

LargoWinch
04-02-10, 08:38 PM
What next?

La guerre. :(

gnk
04-02-10, 11:17 PM
Funny you should mention Triffin. We use his name in the headline of the section of the upcoming "Forecasting in Hell" that covers capital flows.

Certainly there was a Triffin crisis in 2008.


http://www.itulip.com/images2/foecastinghell4.gif


The US pulled out of it with the addition of several trillion dollars of new debt to the Fed's and the federal balance sheet. Was that the last time?


Wow.

I certainly look forward to the next article. And the big question: "Was that the last time?"

I think we're running out of steam here. I see three future options if things continue to deteriorate and a new global reserve system is needed:

1) IMF/SDRs as supported by DSK, Russia, and China for example; Kind of a supra-soveriegn SIV and reserve currency that takes on all the agency/recycled sovereign debt of the US and others in exchange for more paper? After all, who bails out the reserve currency holder? No one else left that's big enough.

2) Gold or a combination of gold and the above... after all, China may be for SDRs, but why the ongoing domestic gold splurge program? China and Russia and India are loading up on gold. There has to be a long-term strategic reason for doing so. And what about Europe? I believe Geithner recently offered China a larger stake in the IMF - at the expense of the EU! I could see the EU, whose combined gold in the Eurosystem surpasses all others, supporting this option.

and,

3) the worst option - c'est la guerre, as Largowinch said.

icm63
04-04-10, 12:02 AM
Recent stories of gold price manipulation and reports of a murder attempt on the life of a supposed gold manipulation scheme whistle blower do serve one purpose: they reinforce the view of 95% of the investing public that gold investing is the realm of crackpots and conspiracy theorists.

I believe the whistle blower and Gata made a more important point rather than mere price manipulation, the point that concerns me was that paper gold may not be backed with 1 x 1 physical gold, and that it could be as high as 100 x 1 (paper gold to physical gold).

NOTE: Enron, Lehman, had auditors as well.

aaron
04-11-10, 01:51 AM
I believe the whistle blower and Gata made a more important point rather than mere price manipulation, the point that concerns me was that paper gold may not be backed with 1 x 1 physical gold, and that it could be as high as 100 x 1 (paper gold to physical gold).

NOTE: Enron, Lehman, had auditors as well.

If the demand for gold is X per year and 90% of that is being filled by paper, I can see how limits on short positions might be very metal positive. In other words, the SUPPLY of gold will drop substantially if the CFTC does its job. In the case of gold, gold SUPPLY = gold metal + paper gold. If the quantity of paper gold goes down because of better enforcement of collateral requirements, I think we should see the price go up substantially. I remember price & supply/demand curves from econ 101. As the total gold supply goes down price should go up. This will be irregardless of money printing and inflation and gold going mainstream.

icm63
04-12-10, 04:43 PM
UPDATE:

I also understand that some say LBMA ( ie BV as a member) and gold certificate could be $100 x $1 ( paper to physical gold) is acting like the futures market. Where some one buys a bushel of corn on margin and never expects delivery.

Well that's the point of difference, if all the customers turned up at Bullion Vault and said "Please give me my gold, thanks", do you think all would get it ?? If you think so, stay at BV, otherwise own physical gold.

metalman
04-12-10, 05:54 PM
UPDATE:

I also understand that some say LBMA ( ie BV as a member) and gold certificate could be $100 x $1 ( paper to physical gold) is acting like the futures market. Where some one buys a bushel of corn on margin and never expects delivery.

Well that's the point of difference, if all the customers turned up at Bullion Vault and said "Please give me my gold, thanks", do you think all would get it ?? If you think so, stay at BV, otherwise own physical gold.

from the bv faq... (http://www.bullionvault.com/from/itulip)

Your safety & security assured


For as long as you own it your gold remains your outright property, stored in specialist facilities reserved exclusively for BullionVault clients and run by accredited professional vault operators who are wholly independent of BullionVault. You choose the storage location :- London, New York or Zurich.
You are truly isolated from the systemic risks in the financial system. You have taken legal delivery of your gold and you own it directly in physical form. Unlike the huge majority of investment products no company's financial failure can deprive you of this gold. Lloyds, Via Mat and BullionVault could all fail - and your gold is still safely yours.
Each and every working day BullionVault publishes on the internet the complete register of all its gold owners - with each owner listed under a public nickname known only to themselves.
This register reconciles exactly to the official bar list published with it. The bar list is produced by the vault operator, independently of BullionVault. No other custody business in the world subjects its records to this continual, daily, public scrutiny.
You even have the right to withdraw gold from the vault, although the huge majority of BullionVault users leave their gold right where it is. That way they continue to enjoy the benefits of owning Good Delivery gold which - remember - does not leave the professional vaulting circuit.

icm63
04-12-10, 06:31 PM
You even have the right to withdraw gold from the vault, although the huge majority of BullionVault users leave their gold right where it is. That way they continue to enjoy the benefits of owning Good Delivery gold which - remember - does not leave the professional vaulting circuit.

Well thats fine.

But sh*t does happen...

http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/3/bear-stearns-bsc-did-ceo-alan-schwartz-lie-on-cnbc-

ThePythonicCow
04-12-10, 06:55 PM
Well thats fine.

But sh*t does happen...Every alternative has its risks. Every alternative.

We each individually have to weight the various risks, as best we anticipate them and in the light of our own circumstances. It is useful to discuss those risks with others, to share insights and knowledge, but carte blanche dismissal or endorsement for another is seldom useful, except in such cases as when you have some relevant and proper care taking role for the other (say a minor children or an incompetent relative you're tending,) or when they are your client in some relevant professional business, such as that of an investment advisor.

jtabeb
04-12-10, 07:39 PM
Well thats fine.

But sh*t does happen...

http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/3/bear-stearns-bsc-did-ceo-alan-schwartz-lie-on-cnbc-

BUT ONLY if you are forced to expatriate (it's in the fine print).

So no, you can't just take your metal anytime you want. You have to be forced to flee your home domicile first.

From BV's own FAQ.
Can I get physical custody of my gold?

Yes - BullionVault allows physical withdrawal of gold, but only in special circumstances. The most likely case is when your bank is no longer a practicable recipient of your funds - as might be the case after political or economic upheaval in your country of residence.
It is to guard against those types of circumstance that some gold buyers seek immediate personal custody of their gold. The supposed security may be an illusion. Gold is commonly unusable when stored in the country where it is needed, because use of it exposes the owner to great risks; either through confiscation, personal safety or physical loss.
To be useful as a store of value in uncertain times gold works best when held in a place which consistently recognises foreign ownership rights and is not itself in crisis. Then it can be sold for full value. Its owner will generally find the proceeds are welcome all over the world - even at home.
Since nowhere can guarantee to remain permanently immune from crisis it is also sensible to retain a degree of flexibility, and this is why BullionVault offers a choice of storage locations. We also use a vault manager and technology which allow the choice of storage locations to be extended by us as geopolitical circumstances change.
In addition to these strategic reasons for avoiding personal custody of gold there are tactical ones:-


Privately held gold is not fully trusted when sold back to bullion markets, and loses value proportionately.
Privately held gold is physically less safe than vaulted gold, and very much more expensive to insure.
Upon taking private custody bar buyers must still trust the gold content unless they are competent to assay.

These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration.
Back to top of FAQs (http://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/FAQs_operational.html#Top)




So for all intents and purposes YOU Ain't NEVER getting no actual gold out of bullion vault, unless you're running like a refugee.

metalman
04-12-10, 08:16 PM
BUT ONLY if you are forced to expatriate (it's in the fine print).

So no, you can't just take your metal anytime you want. You have to be forced to flee your home domicile first.

From BV's own FAQ.
Can I get physical custody of my gold?

Yes - BullionVault allows physical withdrawal of gold, but only in special circumstances. The most likely case is when your bank is no longer a practicable recipient of your funds - as might be the case after political or economic upheaval in your country of residence.
It is to guard against those types of circumstance that some gold buyers seek immediate personal custody of their gold. The supposed security may be an illusion. Gold is commonly unusable when stored in the country where it is needed, because use of it exposes the owner to great risks; either through confiscation, personal safety or physical loss.
To be useful as a store of value in uncertain times gold works best when held in a place which consistently recognises foreign ownership rights and is not itself in crisis. Then it can be sold for full value. Its owner will generally find the proceeds are welcome all over the world - even at home.
Since nowhere can guarantee to remain permanently immune from crisis it is also sensible to retain a degree of flexibility, and this is why BullionVault offers a choice of storage locations. We also use a vault manager and technology which allow the choice of storage locations to be extended by us as geopolitical circumstances change.
In addition to these strategic reasons for avoiding personal custody of gold there are tactical ones:-


Privately held gold is not fully trusted when sold back to bullion markets, and loses value proportionately.
Privately held gold is physically less safe than vaulted gold, and very much more expensive to insure.
Upon taking private custody bar buyers must still trust the gold content unless they are competent to assay.

These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration.
Back to top of FAQs (http://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/FAQs_operational.html#Top)




So for all intents and purposes YOU Ain't NEVER getting no actual gold out of bullion vault, unless you're running like a refugee.

that's your interpretation of this? what, are you kidding?


Can I get physical custody of my gold?

Yes - BullionVault allows physical withdrawal of gold, but only in special circumstances. The most likely case is when your bank is no longer a practicable recipient of your funds - as might be the case after political or economic upheaval in your country of residence.
It is to guard against those types of circumstance that some gold buyers seek immediate personal custody of their gold. The supposed security may be an illusion. Gold is commonly unusable when stored in the country where it is needed, because use of it exposes the owner to great risks; either through confiscation, personal safety or physical loss.
To be useful as a store of value in uncertain times gold works best when held in a place which consistently recognises foreign ownership rights and is not itself in crisis. Then it can be sold for full value. Its owner will generally find the proceeds are welcome all over the world - even at home.
Since nowhere can guarantee to remain permanently immune from crisis it is also sensible to retain a degree of flexibility, and this is why BullionVault offers a choice of storage locations. We also use a vault manager and technology which allow the choice of storage locations to be extended by us as geopolitical circumstances change.
In addition to these strategic reasons for avoiding personal custody of gold there are tactical ones:-


Privately held gold is not fully trusted when sold back to bullion markets, and loses value proportionately.

Privately held gold is physically less safe than vaulted gold, and very much more expensive to insure.
Upon taking private custody bar buyers must still trust the gold content unless they are competent to assay.

These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration.

bv is safer than bullion in your house if you live in a country that will tax the shit out of it if you try to sell it or take it out of the country. period.

now... if you're willing to break the law.. not pay the tax on sales... smuggle the physical out of the country... you don't need bv.

keep your 50 oz. buried in the yard... dig it up & sell it on the black market for 50% of market price. (http://www.moleseyeview.com/tag/black-market-exchange-rate/) that doesn't work for folks with 1000 or 10,000 oz. & that's bv's customer.

jtabeb
04-12-10, 08:38 PM
that's your interpretation of this? what, are you kidding?



bv is safer than bullion in your house if you live in a country that will tax the shit out of it if you try to sell it or take it out of the country. period.

now... if you're willing to break the law.. not pay the tax on sales... smuggle the physical out of the country... you don't need bv.

keep your 50 oz. buried in the yard... dig it up & sell it on the black market for 50% of market price. (http://www.moleseyeview.com/tag/black-market-exchange-rate/) that doesn't work for folks with 1000 or 10,000 oz. & that's bv's customer.

Dude, you are honestly smoking crack if that's the meaning you get out of that.

What do you not understand, you can only get it if you expatriate. That's it, no other exceptions. It SAYS so.

"These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration."


I assume you CAN read, so Don't argue with me, go argue with bullion vault.

Point is SHORT OF TOTAL CALAMITY, you can't get no physical gold from BV. It's RIGHT THERE on their own WEBSITE for GOD's SAKE!

(It's the last line of where you quote me by the way, you know, the ONE YOU DIDN'T HIGHLIGHT IN RED)

metalman
04-13-10, 12:46 AM
Dude, you are honestly smoking crack if that's the meaning you get out of that.

What do you not understand, you can only get it if you expatriate. That's it, no other exceptions. It SAYS so.

"These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration."


I assume you CAN read, so Don't argue with me, go argue with bullion vault.

Point is SHORT OF TOTAL CALAMITY, you can't get no physical gold from BV. It's RIGHT THERE on their own WEBSITE for GOD's SAKE!

(It's the last line of where you quote me by the way, you know, the ONE YOU DIDN'T HIGHLIGHT IN RED)

i'd encourage you to read it again...

before you do, imagine for a minute that the service is not designed for usa gold bugs. imagine you're a wealthy dude in argentina, saudi arabia, indonesia, etc, etc.

ok, now try again.

it says that if tshtf in your home country, fetching your bv gold home is dumb... even if it's not taken away from at the border on the way in you won't be able to sell it for shit on the black market in your f'ed up country.

when the shtf in your home country, you want your gold in london, zurick, or nyc, not the one where tshtf.

as long as you can sell some out of your gold out of your bv account & xfer the proceeeds home to your bank at full market value, you're better off leaving it in bv custody.

if you can't sell it & wire the proceeds home because your bank is blusted, better come & get your gold because you're as f&cked as any usa goldbug with his gold in the back yard when tshtf here in the usa & your bv account is in nyc... theives & the gov't after your ass, taxes, black market ripoffs, etc.

that's what it says. that's all it says.

ThePythonicCow
04-13-10, 12:50 AM
that's what it says. that's all it says.I think it says one more thing. Sure, as you say, it says you can get your gold when you're on the run from your native country.

But it also says you cannot get your gold under any other circumstances!

metalman
04-13-10, 01:09 AM
I think it says one more thing. Sure, as you say, it says you can get your gold when you're on the run from your native country.

But it also says you cannot get your gold under any other circumstances!

now, now cow. how are they going to enforce a rule like that? what... do you have to bring a 'just got thrown out of my country' card to take your gold out?

maybe they don't want to take out a hack saw & cut your 50 oz off the end of a 1000 oz bar any time you feel like it.

to clarify this question, i'll send a note to bv & tell ya what i get back.

ThePythonicCow
04-13-10, 01:20 AM
to clarify this question, i'll send a note to bv & tell ya what i get back.Go for it. Let us know.

jtabeb
04-13-10, 01:29 AM
now, now cow. how are they going to enforce a rule like that?

Easy, it's in the CONTRACT that you signed (agreed to) when you opened an account with them. YOU DID READ the contract/account agreement, RIGHT?

(Have fun trying to get your metal, Metal.)

ThePythonicCow
04-13-10, 01:33 AM
Easy, it's in the CONTRACT that you signed (agreed to) when you opened an account with them. YOU DID READ the contract/account agreement, RIGHT?
You can bet that BV has read their contract, whether or not you have. At least that was my experience when doing some shuffling of accounts with them last year; they were well versed on the rules I had agreed to and went by the letter of them.

jtabeb
04-15-10, 10:03 AM
now, now cow. how are they going to enforce a rule like that? what... do you have to bring a 'just got thrown out of my country' card to take your gold out?

maybe they don't want to take out a hack saw & cut your 50 oz off the end of a 1000 oz bar any time you feel like it.

to clarify this question, i'll send a note to bv & tell ya what i get back.

Hey Metal, what did you find out? DO Tell!

thriftyandboringinohio
04-15-10, 10:38 AM
to my knowledge leegs, the premium varies between 1.5% to 2.5% and remain unchanged since last year.
Largo -
Where do you buy 1 oz coins at spot-plus-2% ?
At Kitco right now a 1 oz Krugerand is $1,236.92 while spot price is $1,156. That works out to spot-plus-7%

I've been happy to buy coins at spot plus 5% and would love to get it cheaper.

jtabeb
04-15-10, 12:42 PM
Largo -
Where do you buy 1 oz coins at spot-plus-2% ?
At Kitco right now a 1 oz Krugerand is $1,236.92 while spot price is $1,156. That works out to spot-plus-7%

I've been happy to buy coins at spot plus 5% and would love to get it cheaper.


Thrifty, there is a concept I would like to introduce you to.

"Price Insensitive Buying".

This is a good rule of thumb to follow when buying physical PMs.

Here it is.

1. IF (have FIAT CASH=1)
2. THEN (Buy Gold + Silver until have FIAT CASH=0)
3. WHEN have FIAT CASH =1, GOTO line 1

sishya
04-15-10, 03:28 PM
that's your interpretation of this? what, are you kidding?



bv is safer than bullion in your house if you live in a country that will tax the shit out of it if you try to sell it or take it out of the country. period.

now... if you're willing to break the law.. not pay the tax on sales... smuggle the physical out of the country... you don't need bv.

keep your 50 oz. buried in the yard... dig it up & sell it on the black market for 50% of market price. (http://www.moleseyeview.com/tag/black-market-exchange-rate/) that doesn't work for folks with 1000 or 10,000 oz. & that's bv's customer.

Metalman,
where did you get the 50% of market price. Also I don't think it is illegal
to take Gold out of USA. Gold can be taken to India - pay Rs. 300 per 10 gm excise duty($1=Rs. 45) and then sell it to Gold Jeweller for 100%+duty rate. No loss. I was just wondering, where you got the 50% off. of course you cannot do the 1000 oz because there are limitations on import size.

thriftyandboringinohio
04-16-10, 11:15 AM
Thrifty, there is a concept I would like to introduce you to.

"Price Insensitive Buying".

This is a good rule of thumb to follow when buying physical PMs.

Here it is.

1. IF (have FIAT CASH=1)
2. THEN (Buy Gold + Silver until have FIAT CASH=0)
3. WHEN have FIAT CASH =1, GOTO line 1

Thank you, sir.
I agree in spirit and inclination, but have yet to go all-in like you.
Regardless, at step two I'd like to get the most gold for my fiat.