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  • Groundhog day in the housing market

    Groundhog day in the housing market

    Economists' reactions to the latest housing market news makes me feel like Bill Murray in the
    1993 movie Groundhog Day

    In case you never saw the movie, Murray plays a weather man who is sent to cover a story in Punxatawney about a weather forecasting groundhog, which he refers to as a "rat," for a fourth year in a row. Classic Bill Murray sarcasm conveys his frustration about having to cover the cutesy story again. His producer and love interest is played by Andie MacDowell.

    On awaking the next day, and each morning thereafter, he finds that it's Groundhog Day again, and again, and again. He finds himself doomed to spend eternity in the same place, seeing the same people do the same thing every day. He experiences the same events over and over. Everything happens the same way. The waitress at the local diner has the same conversation with Murray and spills a cup of coffee at the exact same moment each day. To Bill, the repetition is maddening, but to the waitress and other people in his day the events are new each time. Here's the trailer.





    Last few years, talking to most economists about the housing market has gone like Murray's conversations with MacDowell in Groundhog Day. Events unfold with maddening predictability, yet to most economists they are new and fresh... every single time. We've been having the same conversation, with minor variations, since August 2002 when iTulip was one of the first to make the case (Google search claim verification: housing bubble 2002).

    August 2002


    We said: Yes. It's a Housing Bubble.
    The historical average for the cost of a mortgage is 25% of gross income. That's what the banks used to recommend, before they got desperate for households to sell mortgages to. In bubbly real estate market like Boston's today the average mortgage has reached 44% of income. That's a housing bubble. Period.

    Why is income growth rate versus price a valid measure of a housing bubble? The out-of-whack relationship between income and price reveals the disconnect between price and risk in a housing market bubble the way the out-of-whack relationship between P/Es and price do in equity market bubbles. An indication of the top of a bubble is a change in the tactics of sellers as they run out of buyers. In the case of the stock market bubble, we saw the marketing of equity product in more and more rarefied packages, a mutual fund marketed to women, for example. An example is Women's Equity Mutual Fund (FEMMX), a fund that's holding it's own well, by the way. In the case of the housing bubble, the sellers are banks and mortgage companies. When they start running out of mortgage buyers, they naturally start selling mortgages to more and more people who are less likely to pay them back.
    They said: A Boom but no Bust
    After watching their stock portfolios disintegrate over the past two years, homeowners can be forgiven for wondering if perhaps housing will be the next bubble to burst. Home values in many places have risen at a quickening, double-digit pace in recent years, and a few economists warn darkly that a collapse in housing is not only possible but likely. Yet the vast majority of analysts see little reason for concern, and history is on their side.
    January 2004

    We said: Housing Bubbles Are Not Like Stock Market Bubbles
    If you're looking for the housing bubble to end like the stock market bubble, you'll be surprised. Housing bubbles may run on the same fuel as stock market bubbles, excess money from the Fed, but they grow and collapse according to a different set of functions and dynamics.
    They said: Freddie Mac: No Housing Bubble
    Amy Crews Cutts, the deputy chief economist at Freddie Mac, argued that there is no housing bubble in the U.S. today.
    January 2005

    We said: Housing Bubble Correction - Ten to fifteen years to revert to the mean
    Housing bubbles don't collapse suddenly. They go through a long series of self-reinforcing deflationary stages that typically last five to seven years. Given the extreme and unprecedented nature of the current housing bubble, I expect a ten- to fifteen-year downturn to follow this boom. The government will step in with all manner of supports and bailouts along the way, similar to those that created the bubble in the first place, so the exact trajectory of the decline is impossible to predict. Here I estimate how and over what time period the decline may occur.
    They said: No Housing Bubble Trouble
    The start of each year is prime time for economic pessimists, who try to persuade us terrible things are about to happen. A perennial favorite is the "housing bubble" about to burst, with a supposedly devastating impact on household wealth. This has been repeatedly recycled since June 2002 by bearish economic forecasters like Ed Leamer of University of California-Los Angeles and Stephen Roach of Morgan Stanley.

    And the same scary story has proven handy for policy wonks who abuse it to rationalize their agendas, such as lecturing the Fed to keep interest rates too low or lecturing Congress to push tax rates too high.

    Although the overworked analogy between housing and tech stocks sounds dramatic, it is quite preposterous. "The downside of this [housing] bubble," said Mr. Roach last month, is "potentially far worse than that of the equity bubble. Really?
    June 2005

    We said: Dancing, Booze, and Overpriced Houses
    The housing bubble is reaching absurd, bacchanalian heights, which can only mean one thing: it's getting ready to collapse.
    They said: Housing Bubble -- or Bunk?
    I don't foresee any national decline in home price values. Freddie Mac's analysis of single-family houses over the last half century hasn't shown a single year when the national average housing price has gone down. The last consistent drop was during the Great Depression, when the unemployment rate got up to 25%, or five times the level we're at now. - Frank Nothaft, chief economist, Freddie Mac
    March 2006

    We said: Housing Bubble Correction Update - Geographic cascade effect
    After a year or so, broad regions covering metropolitan areas out to rural areas that experienced real estate bubbles will experience simultaneous price declines. The extent of price decline in any area will depend on several factors, but most importantly the diversity of the local economy. A local economy that is dependent on one or two industries, and especially one or two employers, is vulnerable to significant housing price declines.
    They said: Is the Real Estate Market in Bubble Trouble?
    You can't go anywhere without hearing people talk about "the real estate bubble." Such talk drives me to distraction, and I'll tell you why. It's because there is no real estate bubble. Bubbles are for bathtubs.
    June 2007

    Here we go again, with our first major update to our housing bubble analysis since March 2006, Fueling the FIRE Economy - Part III: Impact of Disappearing Fictitious Value ($ subscription). Using the Fed's Flow of Funds data, our analysis indicates $12 trillion in fictitious value has accumulated in the US housing market since 1997 when the pre-bubble stage of the housing bubble started; the hyper-growth bubble stage lasted from 2001 until mid 2005.

    How will most economists react to our most recent housing bubble analysis? Groundhog day all over again.

    We say:
    All asset bubbles are mean reverting, including the housing bubble. All $12 trillion will disappear, eventually. The only issue is how quickly, and how much in nominal versus real price declines.
    They will say: Housing Bubble or Slow Deceleration of Housing Market?
    Freddie Mac and its Office of the Chief Economist took on the doomsayers in its January 2006 Economic Outlook released late last week and concluded that the housing bubble is not going to burst.
    We say:
    A total of $5 trillion in fictitious value disappeared from the stock markets in two years from 2000 to 2002 during the collapse of the stock market bubble. We project a ten year mean reversion process for the US housing market as the fake $12 trillion dissipates, or slightly more than $1 trillion a year on average.
    They will say:
    Huh?
    We say:
    The reversion of the housing market to the mean will occur as a combination of nominal and real price adjustments as the dollar depreciates. To dissipate all of the fictitious value, the 20% to 30% nominal price correction in US homes predicted by Robert Shiller will occur along with a 40% depreciation of the dollar.
    They will say:
    What?
    We say:
    New asset bubbles will develop as a result of government policies designed to reflate the US economy, which we predicted in October 2006 was due to fall into recession by Q4 2007.
    They will say:
    Nuts! Bubbles are accidents, they can't be predicted.
    We shall see. As usual, you heard it here first.

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    Last edited by FRED; November 13, 2007, 11:44 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

    Classic movie. One of my favorites. One small quible: Andie MacDowell is not the waitress. I believe she was his producer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

      Originally posted by Andreuccio View Post
      Classic movie. One of my favorites. One small quible: Andie MacDowell is not the waitress. I believe she was his producer.
      Wups. Thanks. Fixed it!
      Ed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

        one of my favorite movies too. and the analogy is apt.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

          Another great article. It absolutely makes me livid nowadays how the MSM just lets the government float by on the "official" numbers which always get revised downward. I think finally the tidal wave of housing is turning to the point where even the MSM can see the big fist of the housing bubble right in their face.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

            EJ:

            One of my favorite movies also. Funny, I made reference to the movie in a similar manner the other day. Every day is ground hog day.

            Having lived through one of these bubbles burst in the Oklahoma/Texas oil patch in the early 80's I was also fairly vocal about it from the gitgo. People would look at me like I was a nutjob. Had a fellow CFO tell me about 2 years ago, "John, when you first started talking like that I thought you lost your mind, but now I have started hearing other people say the same thing." The weird thing is you would think other finance people would be intune with it but they are not.

            However, talked to John at my dealership (customer service rep) and he was right there. Why, he is Greek and always watching the dollar/Euro ratio, good sense of history and understands totally what is happening, but still has not realized the impact upon himself. Expects his house to not fall in price.

            The only matter I would disagree with is your graph shows housing to settle back on the trend line. Usually the downward side of the bubble will overshoot the trend line downward along the lines of an equal but opposite reaction. Maybe slightly less.

            Why, you might ask? Well, the first reason is the loaning of money to buy a house practically dries up. All homes have to be bought in near cash transactions. You look at the loss of value and you just made a large number of financial institutions insolvent. During the Oklahoma and Texas bust homes dropped from $50,000 and $60,000 down to $8,000. Only people who had cash were purchasing the homes.

            Maybe you are accounting for this with the 40% devaluation of the dollar. Personally, I thing it will take that to just get the engine restarted, but the problem with a dollar devaluation is oil prices move in the opposite direction of the dollar. Oil would go to $100 a barrel and where would that put the economy.

            As they would say in the UK, we have a sticky wicket here!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

              Originally posted by Ishmael View Post
              EJ:

              One of my favorite movies also. Funny, I made reference to the movie in a similar manner the other day. Every day is ground hog day.

              Having lived through one of these bubbles burst in the Oklahoma/Texas oil patch in the early 80's I was also fairly vocal about it from the gitgo. People would look at me like I was a nutjob. Had a fellow CFO tell me about 2 years ago, "John, when you first started talking like that I thought you lost your mind, but now I have started hearing other people say the same thing." The weird thing is you would think other finance people would be intune with it but they are not.

              However, talked to John at my dealership (customer service rep) and he was right there. Why, he is Greek and always watching the dollar/Euro ratio, good sense of history and understands totally what is happening, but still has not realized the impact upon himself. Expects his house to not fall in price.

              The only matter I would disagree with is your graph shows housing to settle back on the trend line. Usually the downward side of the bubble will overshoot the trend line downward along the lines of an equal but opposite reaction. Maybe slightly less.

              Why, you might ask? Well, the first reason is the loaning of money to buy a house practically dries up. All homes have to be bought in near cash transactions. You look at the loss of value and you just made a large number of financial institutions insolvent. During the Oklahoma and Texas bust homes dropped from $50,000 and $60,000 down to $8,000. Only people who had cash were purchasing the homes.

              Maybe you are accounting for this with the 40% devaluation of the dollar. Personally, I thing it will take that to just get the engine restarted, but the problem with a dollar devaluation is oil prices move in the opposite direction of the dollar. Oil would go to $100 a barrel and where would that put the economy.

              As they would say in the UK, we have a sticky wicket here!
              Agree with your points. It is odd that finance people seem as clueless as everyone else. They ought to know better, but they do not.

              On the overshoot, the Fire Economy piece EJ refers to goes into that in detail as what all bubbles when they collapse. I'm sure that's true, but the question is we're betting not just on the bubble horse but the rider, and over 10 years the riders are sure to change. Hillary Clinton has already said she has a wealth re-distribution program in mind if she's elected. Funny but iTulip has been talking about a populist getting elected since 1999 if the bubble turned out to cause wealth inequality, with pressure to create trade barriers to protect jobs, etc., wage trade was opened to hold down inflation. So not just higher oil prices but higher everything prices, if we get that rider.

              Then there are the new bubbles we have to get or the whole system implodes. Curious what the guesses are on that. What's in the pre-bubble stage? EJ says alt energy but that look bubble phase to me already.

              If we do get the new bubbles, then the housing market may not crash so bad at all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                Ethenol has to be one of the more nefarious bubbles we've seen coming. A scam from start to finish. The new crop figures are truly attention getting. It will certainly feed the inflating-away gambit. And, of course, the usual transfer of wealth via the fed conduit of subsidies unlimited. To see this coming, unfolding, and eventually collapsing gives new meaning to depression!

                (Or is that recession? Or is it a softlanding? That would make for a good iTulip contest. Naming the next Ministry of Truth's word spin on our economic malaise.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                  Originally posted by OnPoint View Post

                  Then there are the new bubbles we have to get or the whole system implodes. Curious what the guesses are on that. What's in the pre-bubble stage? EJ says alt energy but that look bubble phase to me already.
                  the main candidates in other discussions on this board are: alternative energy, and infrastructure. i would suggest industrial and agricultural commodities as well. infrastructure in particular looks like a great option - "let's rebuild america!" that could cover everything from bridges, tunnels and highways to glass fiber, satellites and wimax. plenty of pork to spread around.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                    People arent as clueless as you think; they are dishonest and simply go with the friggin heard. I dont know about bubbles, I just think the economy will be further fueled by the government while the liars of the MSM continue to say how great the free market is , blah blah blah :rolleyes:

                    Give the farmers time to convert to different bio fuels. Their entire exsistence for generations has been beans, corn, wheat. It takes time to change they way they think, plant : the equipment is expensive, and the storage facilities arent equipped to store, say sugar beets. I would rather see the farmers getting the payouts than the war monger defense contractors. I live in Indiana though, so I am biased.
                    I one day will run with the big dogs in the world currency markets, and stick it to the man

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                      Originally posted by jk View Post
                      the main candidates in other discussions on this board are: alternative energy, and infrastructure. i would suggest industrial and agricultural commodities as well. infrastructure in particular looks like a great option - "let's rebuild america!" that could cover everything from bridges, tunnels and highways to glass fiber, satellites and wimax. plenty of pork to spread around.

                      I agree

                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8414#post8414
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8463#post8463
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8983#post8983
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9032#post9032
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9586#post9586
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0239#post10239
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0161#post10161
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0126#post10126
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0045#post10045
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0675#post10675
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0775#post10775
                      http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....0846#post10846

                      The Infrastructure PE Group on the move setting up the next bubble.
                      http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/n...-news3323.html
                      Last edited by bill; June 02, 2007, 06:09 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                        Originally posted by spunky View Post
                        Give the farmers time to convert to different bio fuels.
                        You should also read

                        Peak Soil: Why Cellulosic ethanol and other Biofuels are Not Sustainable and a Threat to America's National Security - Part I

                        Peak Soil: Why Cellulosic ethanol and other Biofuels are Not Sustainable and a Threat to America’s National Security - Part II

                        Peak Soil: Why Cellulosic ethanol and other Biofuels are Not Sustainable and a Threat to America’s National Security - Part III


                        Part 1. The Dirt on Dirt

                        Ethanol is an agribusiness get-rich-quick scheme that will bankrupt our topsoil.

                        Nineteenth century western farmers converted their corn into whiskey to make a profit (Rorabaugh 1979). Archer Daniels Midland, a large grain processor, came up with the same scheme in the 20th century. But ethanol was a product in search of a market, so ADM spent three decades relentlessly lobbying for ethanol to be used in gasoline. Today ADM makes record profits from ethanol sales and government subsidies (Barrionuevo 2006).

                        The Department of Energy hopes to have biomass supply 5% of the nation’s power, 20% of transportation fuels, and 25% of chemicals by 2030. These combined goals are 30% of the current petroleum consumption (DOE Biomass Plan, DOE Feedstock Roadmap).

                        Fuels made from biomass are a lot like the nuclear powered airplanes the Air Force tried to build from 1946 to 1961, for billions of dollars. They never got off the ground. The idea was interesting – atomic jets could fly for months without refueling. But the lead shielding to protect the crew and several months of food and water was too heavy for the plane to take off. The weight problem, the ease of shooting this behemoth down, and the consequences of a crash landing were so obvious, it’s amazing the project was ever funded, let alone kept going for 15 years.

                        Biomass fuels have equally obvious and predictable reasons for failure. Odum says that time explains why renewable energy provides such low energy yields compared to non-renewable fossil fuels. The more work left to nature, the higher the energy yield, but the longer the time required. Although coal and oil took millions of years to form into dense, concentrated solar power, all we had to do was extract and transport them (Odum 1996)

                        With every step required to transform a fuel into energy, there is less and less energy yield. For example, to make ethanol from corn grain, which is how all ethanol is made now, corn is first grown to develop hybrid seeds, which next season are planted, harvested, delivered, stored, and preprocessed to remove dirt. Dry-mill ethanol is milled, liquefied, heated, saccharified, fermented, evaporated, centrifuged, distilled, scrubbed, dried, stored, and transported to customers (McAloon 2000).

                        Fertile soil will be destroyed if crops and other “wastes” are removed to make cellulosic ethanol.

                        “We stand, in most places on earth, only six inches from desolation, for that is the thickness of the topsoil layer upon which the entire life of the planet depends” (Sampson 1981).

                        Loss of topsoil has been a major factor in the fall of civilizations (Sundquist 2005 Chapter 3, Lowdermilk 1953, Perlin 1991, Ponting 1993). You end up with a country like Iraq, formerly Mesopotamia, where 75% of the farmland is a salty desert.

                        Fuels from biomass are not sustainable, are ecologically destructive, have a net energy loss, and there isn’t enough biomass in America to make significant amounts of energy because essential inputs like water, land, fossil fuels, and phosphate ores are limited.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                          think that depletion of topsoil will stop anyone?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                            Originally posted by jk View Post
                            think that depletion of topsoil will stop anyone?
                            Not at all! As shown by the efforts of ADM to get Federal subsidies for the aforementioned boondoggle. The long term costs to the planet will be very high. But that cost will be borne by somebody else - so why not live high on the hog while I can!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Groundhog day, every day, in the housing market

                              Thanks for the links.
                              I one day will run with the big dogs in the world currency markets, and stick it to the man

                              Comment

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