Storing Gold

[Digidiver]

Ok, I have two questions and am hoping to get some advice from members.

I’ve been purchasing gold for a while now. Smallest size is 10oz bars. Originally I planned to take these with me on flights out of the country and store them but am not sure how bullion is looked upon at the border ( Do I just take my chances and not say anything?).
Currently I am storing in a couple of Safety Deposit Boxes (different banks) but am nervous about these as well after reading a few incidents with BofA going into them and not notifying the owner. Additionally what happens to a box if there is an issue with the bank itself? How safe are they?
What are other memebers doing?
I sold my house in 2006 and have been renting since but now am sometimes wishing I had a house to dig a deep pit in and bury it in.
Thanks in advance.
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[pwcmba]

Ok, I have two questions and am hoping to get some advice from members.

I’ve been purchasing gold for a while now. Smallest size is 10oz bars. Originally I planned to take these with me on flights out of the country and store them but am not sure how bullion is looked upon at the border ( Do I just take my chances and not say anything?).
Currently I am storing in a couple of Safety Deposit Boxes (different banks) but am nervous about these as well after reading a few incidents with BofA going into them and not notifying the owner. Additionally what happens to a box if there is an issue with the bank itself? How safe are they?
What are other memebers doing?
I sold my house in 2006 and have been renting since but now am sometimes wishing I had a house to dig a deep pit in and bury it in.
Thanks in advance.
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Information on point two below:

"When can I have access to my safe deposit box?
When the failed bank's deposits are assumed by a healthy bank, the branch offices usually reopen the next business day. At that time, you will have access to your safe deposit boxes. In the event of a depositor payoff, the FDIC will send a letter to you informing you of the closing. The letter will instruct you on how you can remove the contents of your box. Access to the safe deposit boxes is typically granted to the safe deposit holders the next business day after the closure."

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/banking/facts/payment.html

[pianodoctor]

People using safe deposit boxes ought to consider this (story + video): http://i.abcnews.com/GMA/Story?id=4832471&page=1

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

My impression was- if he had just not mentioned the coins, no one would have cared. But he made a point of declaring them.

Who knows how they might have reacted to gold bars?

And it was also clear that there was a very low level of awareness right now as regards border officials and bullion. Of course that could change quickly if the gov't becomes concerned about it.

[jpatter666]

Digidiver,
As an aside, why gold bars that you personally hold? I thought about buying bars, but then decided on coins (for my physical gold) because it's easier to validate a coin than a bar (strangely enough I read an article today about suspicions that various asian gold bars were being mixed with tungsten which is very close to the specific weight of gold). I recall reading in Cryptonomnicon (great book BTW) an small passage on just what a pain it would be to validate a bar of gold.
My gold "bars" such as they are with GoldMoney and GTU.
Just wondering what you saw that I very obviously did not.

[Digidiver]

jpatter666,
As to why gold bars, I only did it due to the amount I was trying to accumulate and heard from others that apmex was a trustworthy dealer. Most of what I have are 10oz Pamp Suisse with assay card. Maybe it gives me a false sense of security but it's too late now. I never had gold before coming to iTulip and getting scared about my life's savings.

[Digidiver]

I saw that article and that is what got me wondering. Is it worth a the risk of losing 10k to test this? I may just end up flipping a coin on my next trip.

[swgprop]

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

It does seem the rules are unclear with respect to transporting gold across the border. Reviewing the US Customs web site results in general confusion (at least on my part). For instance with respect to "Gold coins, medals, and bullion" they state There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion, however, if the value of the gold coins is over $10,000, it must be declared to a CBP officer and must be reported on the FinCEN 105 (http://www.fincen.gov/fin105_cmir.pdf) form.But under the heading "What constitutes "Negotiable Monetary Instruments" for currency reporting requirements?" They make the following two statements:

Negotiable monetary instruments that must be reported by travelers (include) Coin or currency from the U.S. and/or other countries, including gold coins;Gold Bullion is not a monetary instrument for purposes of this requirement. You can obtain the currency reporting form FinCEN 105 (http://www.fincen.gov/fin105_cmir.pdf) for more information.In reviewing the FinCEN form, there is no mention of gold or bullion, and Currency is defined as "The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance."

So where does that leave us?

I would think to play it safe it would be prudent to declare the value of the gold. If you are transporting $100K in cash, there is no law against it but if you fail to declare it and they find it they will seize it. Why tempt fate with bullion?

Just for the heck of it I submitted a question via their web site requesting clarification.

[art]

The most interesting gold storage technique I heard of was from an old MIT prof of mine. He said one of the other profs used to store his gold in a metal cup INSIDE his furnace - in liquid form!

He figured no burglar was going to look inside the furnace; and if they did, they weren't going to grab the molten gold.

[pianodoctor]

Our gov't says U.S. gold coins, minted by our own mint, are "collectibles". I don't see how they can turn around and call them negotiable monetary instruments. Until they decide to do so, of course.

I have sometimes wished I had better access to so-called gold monetary jewelry, as they do in some countries. I don't think anyone at the border will give you crap over jewelry. Walk through with a $million diamond, a $50K watch, I don't think they care.

[thunderdownunder]

I gather you are Female. For complete safety thru all Borders, get to a Jeweler and have a 10 oz bar glued to a cheap 14 k neck chain.Wear the end "pendant" it just out of sight. If questioned tell them it is a fake novelty - Coins, small gold (half ounce) can be placed on cheap charm bracelet. Larger coins on neck chains. Woman wear jewelry and it is never questioned. Watching subcontinent Indians board flights always leaves me wondering if there is any real gold in vaults because they carry pounds of the stuff around the arms, legs and neck.
They can even be purchased
http://store.nwtmint.com/images/products/2174__orig.jpg

[karim0028]

Our gov't says U.S. gold coins, minted by our own mint, are "collectibles". I don't see how they can turn around and call them negotiable monetary instruments. Until they decide to do so, of course.

I have sometimes wished I had better access to so-called gold monetary jewelry, as they do in some countries. I don't think anyone at the border will give you crap over jewelry. Walk through with a $million diamond, a $50K watch, I don't think they care.

I dont know much about diamonds but i dont think they hold their value worth squat, you may buy it for 1 Million but when you come to sell it how much will it really sell for? 500K....

[pianodoctor]

I suppose it depends on whether you are a sharp wholesale buyer who paid correctly for it or a typical retail buyer. The wholesale buyer may buy a diamond for $1million, fancy it up in a jewelry setting and sell it for $5 million. Or sell it to another wholesaler for $1million+ a small profit.

Point is, put it in a piece of jewelry and you can walk it through border check, correct? Just a well-to-do tourist on holiday.

I knew a guy who used to put gold coins into jewelry settings all the time.

Thunderdownunder made the Indian reference. That was my reference point, too. My understanding is, due to cheap skilled goldsmithing labor available, they can get very high gold-content jewelry made at not a lot of premium over bullion value. So they use that gold as a store of value, as we do gold coins. Some of these pieces are pretty hefty.

[pianodoctor]

For those unfamiliar with the concept here's an example of what I consider to be monetary gold jewelry: http://www.malanijewelers.com/sku47-01460-2.aspx

Note thunderdownunder, this is a MAN's piece ;-)

So, 45.3 grams of 22 Karat for $1765. $38.96/gram

Anyone know what a pawn shop would give you for that?

According to this site http://www.silverrecyclers.com/Calculators/gold_calculator.aspx the melt value today of the jewelry piece above is $1416.40

I'm not sure if a pawn shop gives you full melt value or what.

I'm wondering also what differences, if any, there are in "reporting rules" of a jeweler selling you gold jewelry, pawnshops buying it from you, (say $20,000 worth) versus a coin shop buying/sellling $20K worth of bullion.

[jimmygu3]

People using safe deposit boxes ought to consider this (story + video): http://i.abcnews.com/GMA/Story?id=4832471&page=1

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

My impression was- if he had just not mentioned the coins, no one would have cared. But he made a point of declaring them.

Who knows how they might have reacted to gold bars?

And it was also clear that there was a very low level of awareness right now as regards border officials and bullion. Of course that could change quickly if the gov't becomes concerned about it.

I say American Eagles would be the easiest thing to carry without questions being asked. You could easily carry 10 of them ($11k worth) in your purse or carry-on bag instead of a 10 oz. bar. If any questions were asked, the face value is stamped right on the back: US$50 each. You could honestly declare it as $500 in US currency, which it is.

Jimmy

[rabot10]

jpatter666,
As to why gold bars, I only did it due to the amount I was trying to accumulate and heard from others that apmex was a trustworthy dealer. Most of what I have are 10oz Pamp Suisse with assay card. Maybe it gives me a false sense of security but it's too late now. I never had gold before coming to iTulip and getting scared about my life's savings.

goldmoney.com ;-)

[jpatter666]

goldmoney.com ;-)

Or bullionvault.

[Digidiver]

I thought about using them but hesitate since I can't actually see it when I want... you know, to make sure it's actually "there". Maybe I'm just paranoid. At least in a deposit box I can go in every few months and do an inventory.

[swgprop]

I say American Eagles would be the easiest thing to carry without questions being asked. You could easily carry 10 of them ($11k worth) in your purse or carry-on bag instead of a 10 oz. bar. If any questions were asked, the face value is stamped right on the back: US$50 each. You could honestly declare it as $500 in US currency, which it is.

Jimmy

As I mentioned in the post above, I posed the following question to the US Customs web site:
The rules around gold coins and bullion are not clear. You state that "Negotiable monetary instruments that must be reported by travelers (include) Coin or currency from the U.S. and/or other countries, including gold coins; You also state that "Gold Bullion is not a monetary instrument for purposes of this requirement. You can obtain the currency reporting form FinCEN 105 for more information."

There is no information on the FinCEN form regarding bullion. So here is my question.

I am traveling out of the country and I want to carry 10 one ounce American Gold Eagle coins with me. They have a face value of $50 each, however they have a current bullion value in excess of $10,000. Would I need to declare them, and if so, can you direct me to the appropriate statute, law, etc.?And the response that I received is this:


As indicated in your inquiry, you are carrying gold coins which is considered negotiable monetary instrument. If value is $10,000 or more, the Report of International Transportation of Currency & Monetary Instrument, form FinCen105 must be filled out and presented to CBP.Exactly the uninsightful, drone-workerbee response I expected.

[jimmygu3]

As I mentioned in the post above, I posed the following question to the US Customs web site:
And the response that I received is this:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">As indicated in your inquiry, you are carrying gold coins which is considered negotiable monetary instrument. If value is $10,000 or more, the Report of International Transportation of Currency & Monetary Instrument, form FinCen105 must be filled out and presented to CBP. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Exactly the uninsightful, drone-workerbee response I expected.

So if the person in charge of answering questions about US Customs doesn't know what they're talking about, there's no way the airport agents do. Everybody has coins at border crossings. They're not an item that raises eyebrows. If for some reason they do, simply show the agent that they are $50 coins.

Isn't it really the destination country's customs we should be talking about? Do you have to pass US Customs to leave the country?

Jimmy

[swgprop]

If for some reason they do, simply show the agent that they are $50 coins.

Isn't it really the destination country's customs we should be talking about? Do you have to pass US Customs to leave the country?

Jimmy


Leaving the country with undeclared currency > 10K is breaking the law.

Perhaps the Mexican (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/10062009_3.xml) border (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/september_2009/09242009_7.xml) is their focus (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/september_2009/09172009_7.xml).

Nogales, Ariz. – Customs and Border Protection officers working the Mariposa port of entry discover a total of $610,771 in undeclared currency in two separate seizures.
The first seizure occurred on Sunday, September 27, CBP officers were conducting routine inspections of travelers and vehicles leaving the United States when they selected a 2008 Chevy Captiva for inspection. The vehicle was occupied by two individuals.....

[jimmygu3]

Leaving the country with undeclared currency > 10K is breaking the law.

Perhaps the Mexican (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/10062009_3.xml) border (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/september_2009/09242009_7.xml) is their focus (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/september_2009/09172009_7.xml).

My point was that a brand new Gold Eagle from the US Mint is $50 in US currency. It says so right on the coin! For a test, you could try bringing 5 Eagles and declare them as $250. Then if the border agents say they are worth more than face value, $1100 each, then you amend your declaration to reflect the $5500 value. You'd still be well under the $10k limit.

Jimmy

[rabot10]

Or bullionvault.

What I like better about goldmoney compared to bullionvault is that goldmoney will send you back your cash to any place you have a bank account in the name that is the same as the bank account the money was sent from.

My discussions with Bullionvalt were that they would only send it back to the same bank account.

[jpatter666]

What I like better about goldmoney compared to bullionvault is that goldmoney will send you back your cash to any place you have a bank account in the name that is the same as the bank account the money was sent from.

My discussions with Bullionvalt were that they would only send it back to the same bank account.

This is true -- I'd hadn't known that difference.

[strittmatter]

I just recieved my latest order of "buckshot" from the UPS man. Safety deposit box is full and I'm starting to think that it may be a good idea to not have all my eggs in one basket anyway.

Has anyone here ever seriously buried (as in shovel) the stuff?


Not trying to sound like a doomer, just asking.

[jimmygu3]

I just recieved my latest order of "buckshot" from the UPS man. Safety deposit box is full and I'm starting to think that it may be a good idea to not have all my eggs in one basket anyway.

Has anyone here ever seriously buried (as in shovel) the stuff?


Not trying to sound like a doomer, just asking.

Yes, a lot of people here have said they bury their gold. Dig deep, remember where you put it, and keep your mouth shut! :D

Jimmy

[ThePythonicCow]

My discussions with Bullionvalt were that they would only send it back to the same bank account.
Bullionvault tells me that one can switch to another bank account. The method they suggested first involves a few steps, including having the new bank vouch that you appear to be the same person holding both bank accounts, based on presenting a copy of your old bank's statement to your new bank.

I trust that if one were unable to contact the old bank, perhaps by reason of being out of country or the old bank being closed, BullionVault would work with you to get your gold back, though it might be a tedious process.

[strittmatter]

Yes, a lot of people here have said they bury their gold. Dig deep, remember where you put it, and keep your mouth shut! :D

Jimmy


Oh. Well can I at least mail you the GPS coordinates in case of my untimely demise.http://www.itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[cjppjc]

The level of confidence shown here in these gold storage places is surprising to me.

[rabot10]

Bullionvault tells me that one can switch to another bank account. The method they suggested first involves a few steps, including having the new bank vouch that you appear to be the same person holding both bank accounts, based on presenting a copy of your old bank's statement to your new bank.

I trust that if one were unable to contact the old bank, perhaps by reason of being out of country or the old bank being closed, BullionVault would work with you to get your gold back, though it might be a tedious process.

Cow I'm sure they would work with U at BV but why have the run around?
Money laundering? I don't have time for that BS. The PM could be good also. jmho

PS Hey did I say eat more chicken

[ThePythonicCow]

Cow I'm sure they would work with U at BV but why have the run around? The government tends to shut down gold money sites (e.g. egold) that threaten their currency. I prefer to work with a gold storage vendor who goes out of their way to avoid antagonizing the government in this regard.

[sn1p3r]

I can't believe there has been no mention of a safe, bolted to the floor? I would want at LEAST some of my gold on hand and accessible. Then again I would probably try to keep coins on hand and put bars in a safe deposit box or off shore with a vault service. I would never just 'bury' it, that's silly. You'd be better off building a small bunker, bolting a safe to the floor of the bunker and burying the bunker! :D

Also, what about hidden safes like floor safes?

Personally, I keep a small amount of Eagles split between 2 safes at 2 different locations. Having it all in a safe deposit box is just asking for trouble...

[goadam1]

The other night I hid gold in my underwear. How so much gold fit in my underwear I'll never know.
http://doug-johnson.squarespace.com/storage/171932Groucho-Marx-Posters.jpg

[jiimbergin]

I can't believe there has been no mention of a safe, bolted to the floor? I would want at LEAST some of my gold on hand and accessible. Then again I would probably try to keep coins on hand and put bars in a safe deposit box or off shore with a vault service. I would never just 'bury' it, that's silly. You'd be better off building a small bunker, bolting a safe to the floor of the bunker and burying the bunker! :D

Also, what about hidden safes like floor safes?

Personally, I keep a small amount of Eagles split between 2 safes at 2 different locations. Having it all in a safe deposit box is just asking for trouble...

Why is burying it silly? As a gardener, I assure you that I could bury anything somewhere in my acre of land where no one would ever find it.

[strittmatter]

Why is burying it silly? As a gardener, I assure you that I could bury anything somewhere in my acre of land where no one would ever find it.

Storing it in a safe deposit box at a local low volume mom-n-pop community bank two miles from home gives one a bit more peace of mind I suppose. With the talk you read and hear about vault raids and rumors of raids, I have no clue as to the real possibilities vs. the imagined.

What makes burying seem silly to me as well is that it prompts me to think it all the way through then I start to think I've turned doomer. A while back I did build a seal-tight capsule out of pvc pipe and pvc end caps, but no I have not put it to work..........yet. http://www.itulip.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[sn1p3r]

the reason I said burying is silly is because it is merely hidden not secure like a safe. now would someone ever find it? prob not but if they did there is nothing to deter them from taking it.

[rabot10]

The government tends to shut down gold money sites (e.g. egold) that threaten their currency. I prefer to work with a gold storage vendor who goes out of their way to avoid antagonizing the government in this regard.


Cow do you have data that goldmoney is like egold? From what I can see they are way different. Goldmoney isn't in the US for one, could list a few more but - to be honest i don't give a good flying fu%k just wondering. All I want is my PMs to be safe.

[thisandthat.nowandth]

I prefer to work with a gold storage vendor who goes out of their way to avoid antagonizing the government in this regard.

Sage advice.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj238/loweryou/goldIraq.jpg

[ThePythonicCow]

Cow do you have data that goldmoney is like egold? From what I can see they are way different. Goldmoney isn't in the US for one, could list a few more but - to be honest i don't give a good flying fu%k just wondering. All I want is my PMs to be safe.
I have no such data.

But I do have a GoldMoney account, as well as a BullionVault account. My strategy is not to put all my eggs in one basket.

[Prazak]

What I like better about goldmoney compared to bullionvault is that goldmoney will send you back your cash to any place you have a bank account in the name that is the same as the bank account the money was sent from.

My discussions with Bullionvalt were that they would only send it back to the same bank account.

I've spoken and exchanged writings with BullionVault about this, and their response leads me to believe they are more flexible on this point than their published policies indicate.