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View Full Version : Immigration: Enforce the Law the way we used to - Ann Anger



FRED
06-23-06, 12:16 PM
URL of ImageWe don't have an illegal immigration problem, we have an illegal employment problem and southern neighbors that are not great places to live for millions of people

by Ann Anger

I hear people are upset about immigrants today. Without them, who'd mow my lawn, paint my house or pour hot tar onto my roof in 110 degree heat? While my family's inside, asses on the couch in the air conditioned living room watching Survivor re-runs on CBS? My roly-poly kids aren't going to do it. They'd have heart attacks, they're so fat and un-athletic from playing Top Spin 2 on their XBox. That's a sports game. There's irony there.

Most immigrants are not fat. They're too busy working their butts off doing things a lot of U.S. citizens either don't want to do or won't do for the wages these immigrants are happy to get. Jobs, wages and living conditions are better here than the place they came from. That's good. That means the U.S.A. is still a better place to live than a lot of places in the world. We have problems here, no doubt about it, but as long as more people are trying to get into the U.S.A. than get out, we're doing okay.

Today immigrants aren't coming here first class on Virgin Airlines. We 're talking about spending millions to build walls and send troops to keep people from risking their lives to come here in the back of a tractor-trailer or walking through the desert or floating on a raft made out of inner-tubes across the ocean. People die trying. When's the last time you almost died trying to do something? Anyone trying that hard is either desperate to get away from something or desperate to get to something or both. Figure out why they're leaving the place they're leaving, why they're coming here and who they are and you're on your way to solving the "problem," if there even is one.

Anyone who gets down on the U.S.A. needs to take a drive around the slums around Sao Paulo, Brazil. A lot of immigrants here that are supposed to be a "problem" are coming from there through Mexico, another lousy place to live for a lot of people. As long as there are plenty of terrible Get Away From places to live, with corrupt governments that repress their people and keep them in poverty and threaten them with jail or violence, and as long as the U.S.A. stays a relatively better place to Get Away To, we're going to have to deal with immigration. It's a good problem to have.

The U.S. isn't the only Get Away To destination for people fleeing violence, poverty and corruption. There are plenty of people trying to immigrate to Europe and some of the booming economies in Asia. Most of these countries were once terrible places to live at one time or another, too. That's how the U.S. picked up waves of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Russia, China, Vietnam and dozens of countries over the past few centuries. Most of these countries are like the U.S. now, Get Away To destinations for immigrants escaping Get Away From sh*t-hole countries. Good thing for the U.S., these countries have more restrictive immigration policies than the U.S. or else we'd see more competition for immigrants to tar the roof for $6 an hour in the summer heat. These other Get Away To destinations are suffering for it, especially Japan, with its aging population. Who's going to pay the income taxes to fund welfare programs for old, retired Japanese in twenty years? The U.S. could have a real economic problem if all these Get Away From countries improve so much no one wants to leave to come here anymore. We should be "worrying" about that.



Second and third generation immigrants always complain that the latest wave of immigrants is inferior in some way to the previous one, aren't as well educated, criminals and so on. Well, neither were a lot of our parents, grandparents and great grandparents. How does it go on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty?

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Immigrants are rarely the cream of the crop when they come here, but the U.S. has always been a place where the cream can rise to the top if they work hard and get an education, including learning the language. It's a huge disservice to not teach immigrants English in U.S. schools. How are they ever going to get good paying jobs? Stupid.

What do these immigrants want? To cook, rake leaves, build houses. The kind of things our parents or grandparents used to do. The next generation will be doctors, bio-chemists and nano-technologists. That's how it's always been.

Immigrants built this country and always will, I hope. There are times the previous generation of immigrants gets pissed off about the new wave of immigrants. That happens during bad times when competition for jobs at the lower end of the wage scale is tough. For example, look at this chart. There were a string of three nasty depressions toward the end of the 1800s.


http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/art/fig11.jpg


So what happened? They didn't have TV or Lou Dobbs in those days to rally a political movement to make the immigration laws more restrictive. But voters elected politicians to change the laws.

This from the Ellis Island web site (http://www.americanparknetwork.com/parkinfo/sl/history/ellis.html): "A more comprehensive immigration law had been passed in the spring of 1891. In addition to the previously established categories of "undesirables," inspectors now also screened for polygamists, people with prison records for crimes involving "moral turpitude," and all "persons suffering from a loathsome or contagious disease." The Contract Labor Law of 1885 was stiffened to exclude immigrants who were entering the country at the encouragement of American employers; it was even illegal for American employers to advertise."

Notice how the laws went after the employers. Jobs are the honey pot for immigrants.

At the time, a lot of Germans were trying to get out of Dodge and get into the U.S. They couldn't get in through Ellis Island so they had to go all the way to the Gulf of Mexico and come in through Texas. You have a big German community in Texas to this day.

Are times tough today for low wage earners? You bet. iTulip.com shows the wage growth trend and it's not pretty.


http://www.itulip.com/CIID47-79vs79-01.gif


This is the Frog in the Frying Pan chart. Long term pain, over 20 years. The trigger for the current political backlash against immigration is two things.


http://www.itulip.com/images/medianincome2001to2004.gif


One is the decline in real wages for lower and middle income families as shown in the chart above. The second factor is that the cost of living keeps going up, as this chart below shows.


http://www.itulip.com/images/cpi1978-2004.gif


Source: American Institute for Economic Research (http://www.aier.org/2005pubs/RR01.pdf)


That's what's causing the immigration "problem" today. Without these income and expense pressures on middle and lower income families today, Lou Dobbs' audience would vanish.

What does everyone focus their anger on? The illegal immigrants, the ones living in the U.S. without going through the process to become citizens. Previous waves of immigrants, our parents and grandparents, came on boats and entered the country legally. Just like today's, they came here under terrible circumstances. Fascism in Europe. Famines in Irland. Wars in Russia. But everyone who escaped to the U.S. then went through the legal process to become citizens.

What's it take to become a U.S. citizen? Below are a few sample questions from the U.S. Citizenship Test (http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/citizenship_test.html):

1. How many stars are there in our flag?
2. What color are the stars on our flag?
3. What do the stars on the flag mean?
4. How many stripes are there in the flag?
5. What date is the Day of Independence?
6. Independence from whom?
7. What country did we fight during the revolutionary war?
8. Who was the first president of the United States?
9. What do we call a change of the constitution?

That's just starters. How many readers who were born here can answer all the questions on the U.S. Citizenship Test? I bet my kids can't.

Mostly everyone's up in arms about the immigrants from Mexico or those who came through Mexico from other South American and Central American countries. They did not enter the country legally and are here illegally. Why not just throw them out? Because while immigrants are putting added pressure on lower and middle income families, businesses, especially in the construction industry, benefit. Workers willing to work for below minimum wage are good for the bottom line.

Want to end the so-called "immigration problem"? Enforce the immigration laws. Raid the employers. Take away the jobs. Illegal immigration will end overnight. Who's going to risk their life to come here for nothing? It'd be like hitting a light switch.

We don't have an illegal immigrant problem, we have an illegal employment problem.

So here's the whole picture. We need immigrants for the same reason we always have, to bring in fresh blood to keep the country vibrant and competitive, and to pay our Social Security with their income taxes when we're old. It'll be a sad day when the U.S. becomes like some European country that turns away the very people who are the foundations of the economy and the nation's future.

We need immigrants, but we also need to be a nation of laws.

We have middle and lower income wage earners pushing one way and business interests pushing the other on these millions of immigrants living in the U.S. illegally. What's the right balance?

Ann's Solutions:

1. Enforce the law. Raid the employers who break the law. End illegal employment.
2. Change the laws so the U.S. continues to get the best (most motivated!) immigrants to build the country, as in the past.
3. Turn Mexico from a Get Away From country to a Get Away To destination. Stop sucking up to Mexico's corrupt leaders that keep their masses in poverty. Create incentives for Mexico's leaders to make Mexico a better place to live so fewer people are trying to escape from it.
4. Make every U.S. citizen take the U.S. Citizenship Test. Every citizen of the U.S. who complains about immigrants who can't pass the U.S. Citizenship Test gets sent packing. That makes room for the tired, the poor,the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, who can pass the test.

Just kidding about the last one. I'd miss my kids.

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BK
06-23-06, 05:17 PM
One thing you didn't touch on is the expansion of Government services to care for Illegal Immigrants today. In the late 1880's the Government Services provided to US Citizens or Immigrants was non-existent compared with today. Schools systems have used Illegal Immigration as an excuse to expand their Empire (increasing staff and buildings to educate Illegal Immigrants). Government bureacrats are happy to have more customers for what-ever Government service there department offers (education, medical, food stamps).
The added Tax burden (in the form of Increase property taxes) and the increase cost of medical services to cover those who go to the E-R w/o medical insurance - erode the income for the low-middle income citizen.

There is an incentive for the Government employee and elected official to look the other way and happily service a non-US citizen. The more funding and employees your department has the less likely the service will be discontinued.
Although, hunting down all the business owners would be a great start - there are a alot of government employees and elected officials who should be fined or jailed for failing to perform fiduciary role.
No one ever attempts the analysis of Economic benefit LESS the economic cost to all US Citizens.

Rajiv
06-23-06, 07:05 PM
Overall, the NRC/NAS study’s main conclusion is that on average, an additional immigrant generated a positive net contribution to the country of roughly $1,800. Additional studies confirm these findings. The Urban Insitute found that on the national level, immigrants paid $70.3 billion in taxes per year and received $42.9 billion in services.

According to a 1998 study conducted by the National Immigration Forum and the Cato Institute, “in their first low-earning years in the U.S., immigrants typically are net drains on the public coffers, but over time – usually after 10 to 15 years in the U.S. – they turn into net contributors.” This study determined that immigrant households and businesses provide $162 billion per year in tax revenue to federal, state and local governments. Immigrants clearly pay more in local, state and federal taxes than they receive in most public services.

Above from http://crasch.livejournal.com/423670.html

(This is no different from Nativeborn Citizens, who are net drains to the taxpayers until they acheive a high liquidity!) Sort of like saying the poor are a drain to the economy! In general, immigrants do not rely as much as nativeborn cirtizens upon the welfare system, because the hurdles are far higher for them (immigrants,) than for citizens.

BK
06-23-06, 08:47 PM
The states in Western and Central US States are being swamped by the economic benefit of illegal Immigration.
see...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0616/p01s01-uspo.html

Here is an exerpt from the article:
"In Colorado, in 2005, 70 percent of illegal immigrants did not have health insurance, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, a nonprofit research organization which advocates controlling immigration. In addition, 18 percent of households headed by illegal immigrants had someone in the household who used a major welfare program, including food assistance or Medicaid, the CIS reported.

State-level immigration reforms have had trouble from the beginning. In 1994, Californians passed Proposition 187, the first state ballot initiative to deny social services to illegal immigrants. The measure languished in the courts, costing the state a bundle in legal fees before a US District Court declared it unconstitutional in 1997 because it was considered too broad and trampled on federal jurisdiction."

No Medical Insurance and 1 or 2 Kids in the Local school system (schooling cost $5000-$9000 per child). The economic benefit of an low illegal immigrant is looking like an uphill battle.
So, one of us or both of us are getting our facts from a partisan source....but, that's the trouble with statistics... the source often dictates the results...

My earlier posting is just what I observe from my understanding about economics and our tax system. Please understand that I have worked for a number of very talented legal immigrants who's ingenuity allowed me to make money and that I enjoyed working for. The number of us company's created my well educated and talented legal immigrants is huge. But, the immigration of low-no skilled workers/who often have no financial support network is the problem.

Rajiv
06-23-06, 09:56 PM
The first part was from the National Academy of Sciences/ National Research Council, the Urban Institute, and the second was from the Cato Institute, which is a libertarian source. So I figured that there should at least be some semblence of objectivity.

However, newspaper reports these days, are far from objective pieces of writing, and tend to be more colored by the reporter, or rather, editorial staff bias. Infact, a Financial Times reporter once told me that if he wrote what he truly observed, he would be fired -- and stated "I have a family and mortgage."

chikungchi
06-24-06, 07:30 AM
Good article, Ann. You hit it dead on by stating that we need to go after employers...hard. I would further that by suggesting that there be heavy fines for the employer (enough to cover the cost of the enforcement) as well as a sliding scale of fines that make a large dis-incentive for employers to risk hiring illegals. There should also be deportation of the illegal person(s) and the employer fine should cover that expense as well. Also, the repeated practice of hiring illegals should lead to fines not only for the employer in general, but also liability for individual members of the management chain in the company.

However, in terms of the whole practice and policy of immigration, as a nation, we need to strongly assert that we (the citizens and governement of the United States) decide who to allow this country. Our immigration policy should not be decided in Mexico City or by hordes of persons streaming across the border. It should be decided by us through policy. If we as a nation want 10,000 people a day to enter this country, than so be it; let the lawmakers put that into law. However, we all should not turn our backs on the problem and allow anybody who feels like it to enter our country and stay forever just because our lawmakers and other officials are afraid to enforce the current laws.

zmas28
06-24-06, 10:30 AM
Thanks for the really insightful article!
Your point about the need for new blood, as productive contributors to the economy and as consumers, really struck home, especially in light of the upcoming Baby Boomer retirement.
I had wondered why this question would become important at this time, given the relatively low level of unemployment, and was inclined to think it might be political. However, now I think it may be also related to stimulation of domestic consumption (without the need for debt!). I think there's been a threat of deflationary pressures in the economy.
Interestingly, this article indicates economic healing from the 1897 depression due to immigration:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
About 1897, after five years of struggle, deflation eased. Prices in America started to rise again and the economy recovered. But not, historians say, because of the wizards in Washington. Gold was still the monetary standard. Among the forces that healed the economy: a steady flow of immigration to the US which created a new, cheaper labor force and a vast new pool of consumers. But even though the American economy righted itself by the turn of the 20th century, it was still vulnerable. Prices were falling again just seven years later.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link: http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199803/18_smiths_depression/

Ann
06-24-06, 07:49 PM
The accountability angle right on. Not just small fines but the cost of enforcement.

Everyone talks about the Greenspan Put but what about the Congressional Put? Lousy immigration policy and enforcement is one symptom of it. As long as they can just print more money to cover any blunder, they can get away with it. If they had to raise taxes to pay for all this waste, everyone would go nuts, throw these guys out. Instead they tax by inflation and then lie about the inflation. What a racket. As long as the Treasury Dept. issues the bonds and China/Japan/UK pay the bills, taxpayers have no leverage. Every kind of stupid decision that costs taxpayers money needs to hit congressmen in their pocketbooks just like the rest of us. Then who'd want to be one? Hah!

Jim Nickerson
06-24-06, 08:38 PM
The accountability angle right on. Not just small fines but the cost of enforcement.

Everyone talks about the Greenspan Put but what about the Congressional Put? Lousy immigration policy and enforcement is one symptom of it. As long as they can just print more money to cover any blunder, they can get away with it. If they had to raise taxes to pay for all this waste, everyone would go nuts, throw these guys out. Instead they tax by inflation and then lie about the inflation. What a racket. As long as the Treasury Dept. issues the bonds and China/Japan/UK pay the bills, taxpayers have no leverage. Every kind of stupid decision that costs taxpayers money needs to hit congressmen in their pocketbooks just like the rest of us. Then who'd want to be one? Hah!

Everyone can bitch and moan til the cows come home, and it is not going to change the rotten mess that politics has become.

Desirous politicians are driven by egomania and if elected then by greed and egomania. The rules that they created for benefits for themselves are better than for the majority who elected them. Ultimately politicians are interested in ONLY two things: their own well being, and getting reelected.

Politics is the sorriest state of affairs that is probably not in the lifetime of whoever is the youngest person that visits iTulip going to change. My answer is DO NOT participate in the political process. It is a waste of time, unless you individually are seeking favor from whomever you elect-- in which case, such further adds to the corrupt nature of politics.

Jim Nickerson
06-24-06, 08:49 PM
Your article is a good perspective. Is Anger, real or a nom de plume?

Ann
06-24-06, 10:01 PM
Your article is a good perspective. Is Anger, real or a nom de plume?

Not my real name. Got a day job :eek:

SeanO
06-25-06, 12:31 PM
Great points.

A few things I'd like to add...

I think the recent announcements regarding border security are nothing more than this administration's finding the next opportunity to spend like drunken sailors, with enough public support to not look like crooks. Rove and Cheney are brilliant at making the public at large feel good and patriotic about getting their pockets picked.

I cringe everytime I hear someone say we should "round up all the illegals and send them home", and I hear it a lot. I truly don't think anyone realizes the impact that it will have on the economy. Even the illegals that are working under the table still contribute to the economy by spending the majority of their earnings here. They are even buying houses (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/15/MNGRMJEGM81.DTL). On the other side we "benefit" from lower prices enabled by cheap labor.

I agree that ending "illegal employment" is the right goal. We should also be honest that illegal employment it is not solely an illegal immigrant problem. We have plenty of citizens that are getting paid under the table, and still getting the full benefit of government services.

EJ
06-28-06, 01:34 AM
"Loved it! Of course, it states what should be obvious, yet isn't to many. In a way, I'd love to see an enforcement of labor laws, for the same reason I'd love to see a draft. Nothing would pull us out of Iraq faster than a proposed draft ("No way in hell is MY kid getting shot at! That's for other people's kids.") But then with illegal immigrants if we impose the same principle and get rid of them all, then maybe when we're paying five bucks for a head of lettuce we'll figure out why we need them.

"One thing: not all Mexicans are immigrants. My family has been in Laredo, Texas for 200 years. We were there when it was part of Spain, then Mexico, then the Republic of Texas, then the U.S. We never crossed the border--it crossed us."

BK
06-28-06, 12:40 PM
Too bad more voters don't get that the Politicians are happy to have the illegals here to reduce price inflation of many services and food items; illegals are the ultimate inflation fighting Super Heroes of the United States.

If we could only start using more illegals for Government Union Jobs - this would greatly reduce the pressure on Property Taxes, reduce the need for States and Cities to issue bonds to pay their bills, and you might then get the attention of the Politicians. ;-)
Crazy world where the same Politicians who want more low skilled labor to be imported into the US - also want to raise the minimum wage.

jk
06-30-06, 01:46 PM
round the world, xenophobia gets stirred up by right wing politicians whenever there is economic stress. malays get stirred up against ethnic chinese, chinese against japanese, hindus against moslems [and vice versa], serbs against bosnians, germans against turks, brits against pakistanis and jamaicans, the french against "polish plumbers." the whole jihad movement is more of the same - failed polities producing reactionary revolutionaries with their own brand of ethnic cleansing.

i forget how immigration got pumped up lately. [every once in a while immigration becomes an issue.] if times get worse i expect we'll be hearing more about immigration for some time to come.

BK
06-30-06, 09:24 PM
The immigration issue has been coming to a head in the last few years...
The Western States - California, Arizona, New Mexico - are being swamped financially by undocumented citizens. During the late nineties the State coffers were over flowing with money - and the fiscal short falls were less of an issue. Combine this with further worsening conditions in Mexico and other central/southern America countries.
Did you know that the State of California had a Bond offering to cover State operating Expenses. Bond offing to cover Operating expenses is a Perfect example of too much Credit in this world that Itulip tries to high light. California has seen a dramatic increases in education and Medical expenses that can be trace right back to undocumented Immigrants.

Yes - the Politicians use Illegal Immigrants in the good times and the bad...have you noticed how Senator Clinton - went from being pro Illegal Immigrants to backing the building a fence - in the course of two weeks.... I think the Politicians all want the option to be against Illegal Immigrants if the economy sours... just my cynical view.

Jim Nickerson
06-30-06, 09:35 PM
round the world, xenophobia gets stirred up by right wing politicians whenever there is economic stress. malays get stirred up against ethnic chinese, chinese against japanese, hindus against moslems [and vice versa], serbs against bosnians, germans against turks, brits against pakistanis and jamaicans, the french against "polish plumbers." the whole jihad movement is more of the same - failed polities producing reactionary revolutionaries with their own brand of ethnic cleansing.

i forget how immigration got pumped up lately. [every once in a while immigration becomes an issue.] if times get worse i expect we'll be hearing more about immigration for some time to come.
I think you missed Muslims against the Thais, Russians against chechens, and arabs and turks against the kurds, and of course Palestinians and Arabs against the Jews.

I lived next door to a Mexican family, the mother and father of which actually waded across the Rio Grande and are citizens by virtue of amnesty.
They've one son who didn't complete high school and now has fathered two daughters to unwed mothers but he has a job and has his 5 year old over to his parent's house all the time, and she is a nice bright child (the other daugher is a newborn), a younger son who is a real piece of crap (but that may be true of a lot of 14 year olds of any ethnicity) and three daughters, one of who is attending junior college, and the other two who are as bright as stars.

Two years ago, on the other side of my house, was another Mexican family, both college graduates, he second generation and the wife fresh from Mexico where she graduated from college, and both were as productive as most Americans who don't have any idea how long ago their ancestors landed. He was an engineer for American Airlines, and she got a job teaching in the city schools.

My Mexican family next door are the best people I have ever had as neighbors--they absolutely are. (You could figure I have heretofore lived in ghettos, but I haven't.) Their house is an eyesore, but I expect many times better than what either parent had in which to grow up. Neither parent is educated, and I think that has been the downside for the boys, but the girls are going to come out okay I will bet. I would not trade this family as neighbors for the two Americans honkies who live on their other side. The parents take good care of their children, and I have no doubt wish the best for them and strive to do that to the extent they are capable. It is unfortunate that the parents likely lack parenting skills, but they are not alone.

I think the current unhappiness with the illegal Mexicans is the expense of the drain on societal services which I expect in being borne mostly by regular taxpayers. One does not really hear much bitching from the industries that are employing those who may be here illegally. I do not perceive a lot of xenophobic behavior by blacks or whites here in Fort Worth towards Mexicans, but I do lead a rather sheltered life.

I doubt that Islamic terrorists are through attacking us in America, and I think it is a fact, that if such terrorists can get into any country south of our border with Mexico, then right now still they can ultimately just walk into the US if that is what they want to do.

There are a lot of reasons our borders would be better secured, but I do not perceive that attempts at securing the southern border has anything to do with most people having any real hate of Mexicans. There are probably a dozen things I seriously hate in or about America and none is Mexicans or for the matter any other ethnic group.

SeanO
06-30-06, 09:43 PM
Can anyone provide something that supports the Western states "being swamped financially by undocumented citizens"? I'm not pro "illegal immigration", but before any problem can be solved it must be understood.

To be clear, I'd like to see an analysis that balances costs and revenues. Illegals spend their new found incomes like mad... yet I know of no studies that break out sales tax based on immigration status. I do know that it's nonsense that illegals pay no taxes, and get services for free. Besides sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc., some even pay income taxes... "A significant number of the 8.6 million holders of individual taxpayer IDs are illegal immigrants, according to the Government Accounting Office." I'd love to see decent data on this subject so that I could have a well reasoned opinion.

In the mean time, I think ending illegal employment is an easier, though less politically attractive, solution to the no pay problem... also targets the thousands of citizens that work for cash and use services for "free"... or maybe that should be "free-er" than the rest of us. :-)

jk
06-30-06, 10:27 PM
there are certainly real issues surrounding illegal immigration to this country, but i think in general immigration is a red herring issue. income disparities are enormous, social mobility is down, pensions are unreliable, healthcare is going through the roof, and people are worked up about illegal immigrants and gay marriage! duh!

Jim Nickerson
07-01-06, 12:05 AM
there are certainly real issues surrounding illegal immigration to this country, but i think in general immigration is a red herring issue. income disparities are enormous, social mobility is down, pensions are unreliable, healthcare is going through the roof, and people are worked up about illegal immigrants and gay marriage! duh!
Can't stop laughing. I contend there are too many ignorant Americans, and as such it is easy to amuse them and rally their support toward the next election with hot button topics. You rushed and forgot flag burning, doggone it, just missed passing senate by a lousy vote. Much better time be spent on this stuff than anything complicated like budget deficits. Budget deficits aren't trendy political issues amongst the proletariat, because most do not comprehend numbers of more than five digits, and 12 zeros after a number is similar to your body being here and your head in Uranus--I believe that is a planet.

BK
07-01-06, 10:07 AM
Sean,

Here is an article from the Washington Times - estimated cost is $10 Billion per year to California.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041206-102115-6766r.htm

I can't get my brain around Itulips Participants who don't see over spending for McMansions and overspending by states to support Undocumented Workers - comes from the same mind set about money. Obviously, one goal has good intentions. Pulling large numbers of people into the US Social Security Ponzi scheme will only make things worst.
Not even lots of well educated British people immigrating to the US will not make Social Security or the Medicare crisis go away - just make the problem bigger.

Jim Nickerson
07-01-06, 11:31 AM
Sean,

Here is an article from the Washington Times - estimated cost is $10 Billion per year to California.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041206-102115-6766r.htm

I can't get my brain around Itulips Participants who don't see over spending for McMansions and overspending by states to support Undocumented Workers - comes from the same mind set about money. Obviously, one goal has good intentions. Pulling large numbers of people into the US Social Security Ponzi scheme will only make things worst.
Not even lots of well educated British people immigrating to the US will not make Social Security or the Medicare crisis go away - just make the problem bigger.

BK,

Can you name any serious problem on the planet that is not getting worse? I cannot, but I lack imagination.

Someone today, probably jk, asked can anyone imagine what the US$ will be worth 35 years from now? My first thought was that will be right before the 100th anniversary of my birth, so I should not worry too much about it, and I don't have kids, so why me worry?

Good or bad, the immigration problem is seemingly subject to remedy--whether or not it is cost effective to remedy it, I don't know. I think jk also pointed out the absolute ludicrousness of our elected officials' focus on the "important" issues of gay-marriage, flag-burning, etc. On my list of problems facing this country, those do not even make the list, and yet well-paid, highly-benefitted elected officials are discussing such crap.

I see none of the serious problems that exist right now as being subject to remedial action by politicians. The only way things are going to ever get better are for things to get a whole lot worse first, either by ecomonic collapse, starvation, wide spread riot, war, or pandemic or some combination of these events that will unfortunately kill a lot of people and make those who don't die consider the seeming misfortune of survival--suvival as Americans have come to expect as the norm. Other than something disastrous "wiping the slate clean" and allowing civilization to start from a new low point in this country, I see no answers.

To my reckoning most of the people on this planet are poorer than dirt poor. I heard last night on radio while going to sleep about the Democratic Republic of the Congo, bigger than western Europe, having an election that may be completed in 25 days at best. There are no roads generally in the country, 59 million people according to Wikipedia, and the radio said they live on less that ONE (1), that is the number 1, US$ per day. I've seen hovels of sticks, cardboard, and tin on mountain sides in Mexico, and in Venezuela and "houses" made from bamboo and palm fronds in Viet Nam, though a while ago, and I've never set foot in Africa or India, but the world is poor, and we are worried about our wealth and retirement plans, maintaining our purchasing power by investing in PM's, not losing whatever wealth we may have, social security and health care, the cost of electricity and fuel, but not so much about fuel economy, the "immorality" of gay-marriages, flag-burning, play-station whatever, how many songs will an iPod hold, and did you get tickets to the NBA and NHL to see the playoffs. Barron's today, Ned Davis, among other things pointed out the per capita per year use of oil in the US is 25.8, in China 1.8 and India 0.8. Anybody born into or that can get into US is fortunate beyond imagination, even if you are homeless here, your prospects are better probably than are those for, I would guess, 50% of the people on earth. What we have in physical luxury in the US is sickening compare to what the poor have else where, and some of our biggest worry is how to keep things forever getting better for ourselves. I think anything truly bad that brings this country to its knees is fully earned.

SeanO
07-01-06, 12:21 PM
BK, Thanks for the article, exactly the kind of data I was looking for. Can't say that it was authoratative though. It starts by saying the cost to California is $10B, then it later sites another study saying the cost to the entire US after revenue from illegals is $10B. Both can't be right. Not to mention that the California data was provided by an anti immigration organization with the sole intent of explaining "how mass immigration harms the environment, fuels congestion and sprawl, burdens taxpayers, and conflicts with national security priorities". Wouldn't personally be more first choice as an independent source.

Even if we actually did spend $10B/yr. I'm not convinced that the cost isn't worth it vs. the alternatives.

That said I absolutely AGREE with you that overspending for McMansions and overspending on government programs comes from the same mind set about money. I'm just not at all convinced that illegal immigration is our primary spending problem... and I don't think most people appreciate the tangible benefits we receive from it.

Polish_Silver
11-15-12, 04:27 PM
One thing you didn't touch on is the expansion of Government services to care for Illegal Immigrants today. . ..

No one ever attempts the analysis of Economic benefit LESS the economic cost to all US Citizens.

I heard of one analysis done by harvard professor. He found that low education immigrants make the public balance sheet worse. No surprise. Especially in today's economy, only the top 50% or so are really net tax payers. Kotlikoff has also stated that more immigration would not help the long run balance sheet of the country.

One reason it was not possible to crack down on employers is that they had no good way to determine citizenship. Not all citizens have a passport. Driver's license does not prove citizenship. So the employers could not demand any specific document, so it was hard to prove they knowingly hired illegals. I think we need a national ID card. Most of the "GO to" nations have one.

Milton Kuo
11-15-12, 04:41 PM
One reason it was not possible to crack down on employers is that they had no good way to determine citizenship. Not all citizens have a passport. Driver's license does not prove citizenship. So the employers could not demand any specific document, so it was hard to prove they knowingly hired illegals.

Which, of course, is a bald-faced lie by the employers of illegal immigrant labor. I am a natural-born U.S. citizen and every job I have ever held required that I provide proof of citizenship either in the form of a U.S. passport or a birth certificate/driver's license combination. For naturalized Americans who do not have a U.S. passport, they could provide their naturalization papers and a photo ID.

Polish_Silver
11-15-12, 04:41 PM
. Illegals spend their new found incomes like mad...
-)

Many of them send much of the income home. It goes straight out of the country.
They are acting rationally, and except for the actual criminals, I cannot blame them.
But that does not mean the effect on this country is positive.

Polish_Silver
11-15-12, 04:56 PM
When I lived in silicon valley, the local paper would publish the results of student tests in all the public schools. There was a perfect correlation between lower scores and the number of non-native english speakers. No surprise, right? So a big part of the "problem schools" would seem to be immigrants. How do you measure that cost?

I also noticed that a lot of pro-immigrant people lived in expensive neighborhoods with very few illegal immigrants in thier children's schools. So I think everyone who wants unlimited immigration should move to central San Jose, where there are ton's of illegal immigrants.

I did a "ride a long" in a San Jose police car once. There was a map of the patrol zones. They ration the cars so that each one will patrol an area with an equal amount of crime. The areas of with lots of illegal immigrants were tiny. Do the immigrants cause the crime, or do they live there because the rent is cheap?
So hard to figure out! But there are a lot of latino street gangs in these areas, and I don't think the gangs meet to play chess. Other areas have asian street gangs. A latino who grew up in these areas told me that asian gangs are much worse to be around. He said that he often saw his childhood friends in the police beat section of the paper.